Finding my serve after 20 years.

T

toly

Hall of Fame
Greg G said:
Thanks toly! Will work on it. Perhaps it was my way of making up for my height and trying to make contact as high as possible...?
How do you make those images? :)
Click to expand...

A proper toss can also increase contact’s elevation. :shock:

2hmneh0.jpg


To create new pictures you should learn Photoshop – very interesting application.
 
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Cheetah

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
yes i agree. i noticed right away it has improved. so now you are hitting
closer to on the way up. but still hitting on the way down. hahaha.
just thought i'd let you know i'm lurking .... :)
 
Greg G

Greg G

Professional
Thanks for the new picture toly! Sometimes a mental image can really help. Maybe you could photoshop a pat the dog position on my forehand :)
 
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Greg G

Greg G

Professional
Cheetah said:
yes i agree. i noticed right away it has improved. so now you are hitting
closer to on the way up. but still hitting on the way down. hahaha.
just thought i'd let you know i'm lurking .... :)
Click to expand...

I know. Chime in when I actually show improvement :p

Hey where's your video? :)
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

Hall of Fame
Greg G said:
I know. Chime in when I actually show improvement :p

Hey where's your video? :)
Click to expand...

i have the volleycam now. i used it the day after i got it but the court i usually play on w/ another member here doesn't have enough backcourt room. all you could see was my shoulders and above. nice cam system tho.
sometimes we play at different courts so the next time we are there we will film.
 
C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Toly's composite picture shows some serve motion from the same above view. See FYB high speed videos.

s3kmxx.jpg


How does your chest compare?

I believe that the wrist's path in these serves is more outward than my wrist path. The above view is best to check the wrist path and its difficult to check without the above view.

I simplify the problem by thinking that for 3D motions the camera gets a 2D projection. The dimension toward and away from the camera is not well observed and can be misleading. That is why they use high speed multi-camera motion capture systems to get accurate 3D information.
 
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Greg G

Greg G

Professional
Worked on the upper body. I felt I was rotating the wrong way, more like a counterclockwise rotation right to left rather than a shoulder over shoulder motion. So I did a basket while seated, isolating the upper body. Was also looking for the proper swing path for a kick, everything was slicing.

http://youtu.be/E9c-HkUd7sM

I think I found the kick swing path at 0:12

Started standing up at 1:07. Stayed in platform stance for now. Still over rotating. And LeeD the balls were dead :)
 
psv255

psv255

Professional
Greg G said:
Worked on the upper body. I felt I was rotating the wrong way, more like a counterclockwise rotation right to left rather than a shoulder over shoulder motion. So I did a basket while seated, isolating the upper body. Was also looking for the proper swing path for a kick, everything was slicing.

http://youtu.be/E9c-HkUd7sM

I think I found the kick swing path at 0:12

Started standing up at 1:07. Stayed in platform stance for now. Still over rotating. And LeeD the balls were dead :)
Click to expand...

One tip: Make sure you get the right toss before swinging, and take a reasonable pause between each ball. Court time is valuable, but you'll get more out of every ball hit right than double the reps with every other ball hit right.
Also, the way you were seated restricts the shoulder-over-shoulder motion you were looking for. The right shoulder wasn't able to come down when you loaded. If you want to sit down, a stool is ideal, or just sit farther away from the back of the chair

For the kick - it's hard to get it to kick with your toss that far to the right. Toss a little closer to you, and as you start loading and swinging up, move your entire body right (i.e. get more under the ball) as you hit it. You may shank a couple, but the kick is worth it.
 
Greg G

Greg G

Professional
Thanks! Will keep those points in mind next time. I was trying to lean back while sitting down and serving, maybe next time I'll take a knee (gotta put something to avoid getting cut on those ground seashells). Thanks! :)
 
TomT

TomT

Hall of Fame
Greg G said:
Worked on the upper body. I felt I was rotating the wrong way, more like a counterclockwise rotation right to left rather than a shoulder over shoulder motion. So I did a basket while seated, isolating the upper body. Was also looking for the proper swing path for a kick, everything was slicing.

http://youtu.be/E9c-HkUd7sM

I think I found the kick swing path at 0:12

Started standing up at 1:07. Stayed in platform stance for now. Still over rotating. And LeeD the balls were dead :)
Click to expand...
Nice form Greg. I especially liked the sitting down and choking up on the racket drill. I'm going to try that.
 
Greg G

Greg G

Professional
Hey Tom! That drill always helps me when I find a lot of serves hitting the tape or falling short. After serving while sitting, I find the serves have much higher net clearance and are actually going long. Easier to dial it down instead of the other way around :)
 
C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Trunk: 1)Somersault 2) Shoulder-over-Shoulder 3) Rotation & References

Greg G said:
Worked on the upper body. I felt I was rotating the wrong way, more like a counterclockwise rotation right to left rather than a shoulder over shoulder motion. So I did a basket while seated, isolating the upper body. Was also looking for the proper swing path for a kick, everything was slicing.

http://youtu.be/E9c-HkUd7sM

I think I found the kick swing path at 0:12

Started standing up at 1:07. Stayed in platform stance for now. Still over rotating. ...........................
Click to expand...

In the references Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis (2003) Elliott, page 40, and Technique Development for Stroke Production (2009) Elliott. These books are available from the ITF store only, as far as I can tell. For the serve they identify trunk motions of the serve.

1) Forward as in a somersault direction.

2) Shoulder over shoulder motion forward.

3) Rotation in backswing and early in the forward motion.

In my opinion, these provide some racket speed but also function to stretch or maintain the stretch of the internal shoulder rotator muscles. (The leg thrust - accelerates the body while the feet still touch the ground - also stretches the internal shoulder rotator muscles by external shoulder rotation.)

In your sitting drill, what is being used and what isn't relative to the breakdown above?

If possible shoot in bright sunlight and get some high speed video, 240 fps, with small motion blur.
 
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Greg G

Greg G

Professional
Hey chas. I do have the Biomechanics of Advanced Tennis book on the way. Any significant difference in content with the newer book?
 
C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
The earlier book was edited with chapters by several authors. The later book is more on characterizing strokes. The second book has less detailed discussion of the biomechanics but lists the principles when appropriate to describe a stroke. The second book also has some developmental information for younger players such as when they have the strength to use certain motions in their strokes. I'm sure there are differences after 7 years of evolving tennis and research. I use both as top references.

I will say that in the second book I was disappointed in the chapter on backhands. My copy also seems to have figures that are mislabeled in that chapter.

I can now see the 3 trunk serve motions as described. The Biomechanics of Advanced tennis has clear pictures of those components. Maybe there will be better ways to describe these complex motions. But if I don't consider the service motion with that breakdown it is pretty confusing to understand what is going on.

These books also mention the stretch shortening cycle when it is important in phases of strokes. For example, for the forehand the shoulders rotate back farther than the hips to stretch muscles, that is in the second book and probably the first also. Remember that?

When a muscle is stretched it must be used in a short time or the passive force capability will dissipate to nothing. I don't agree with some of the delay times presented in some of Elliott's books, anything around a second and longer seems too long to me. ??
 
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Lukhas

Lukhas

Legend
You're getting the general idea of a kick serve. Your forearm is a bit stiff, your pronation/arm movement doesn't look really fluid. Relax a bit: if the wrist is really loose it will happen naturally. And work on your balance. Your best serves were the ones where you landed well balanced after impact.
 
Greg G

Greg G

Professional
At least there's some progress! :)

So to get it to bounce higher, I need to make that arc even higher?
 
C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
It's simple, just duplicate these strokes.

The bounce, high to the right, looks like a kick serve.
https://vimeo.com/40449753

Toly composite picture from video frames.
hqdefault.jpg


Close up, believed to be a kick.
https://vimeo.com/40449544

Believed to be a kick from the bounce.
https://vimeo.com/27528701

Actually, Stosur is probably not the best to start with as she really has an exaggerated kick serve that is hard to copy. Also, more body bending than we should do.

I believe that the way to compare your serve to theirs is to video from behind with the camera viewing along the path of the serve. The camera can't easily be placed that high but as high as is convenient.

The angles from behind are the arm, elbow straight, forearm-racket, shoulder-shoulder to upper arm (see the Ellenbecker video). Side views show other angles and how far forward the toss and body go for impact.

A thread with some discussion of angles
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=478319
 
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gregor.b

gregor.b

Professional
Greg G said:
Since the original thread has gone into remodelling my forehand:

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=430395

I decided to start a new thread about my serve. After 20 years...I can serve, but there's some weird hitch in the kinetic chain. What I can see is that the right hip/leg comes forward. As always, comments and suggestions are most welcome.

Video of the motion here:
http://youtu.be/V0vTXOUkYc8

It's pretty much good for starting the point, not much more. No pop.
http://youtu.be/PP9TIcAz5X4

Please do help me fix it :)
Click to expand...

First thing you need to do is toss at least another foot into the court. When you do that, you will get more pop. 1% grasshopper, 1%. The toss you are using is more for a kicker (depth wise at least), not a first serve. Try mastering one thing at a time, not all of them. It is just way too difficult.
 
Greg G

Greg G

Professional
^ Gregor, that post and vid you quoted was from 2 years ago! :)

But your advice is still valid, I still don't toss as far out in front as I should. I mean it's better now, but under stress, it can go back again.
 
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gregor.b

gregor.b

Professional
Greg G said:
^ Gregor, that vid was 2 years ago! :)

But your advice is still valid, I still don't toss as far out in front as I should.
Click to expand...

Is that where your toss is currently? If so, remember,it is hard to get the ball going forward when it is behind you. If this is the case, you are going forward under the ball, not up behind it.
 
S

shindemac

Hall of Fame
Greg G said:
Found this. Interesting take on timing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vc3_pUFSgI
Click to expand...

Some of it is new and interesting to me, but some of it has been talked about a million times on here like the kinetic chain, legs, and balance. Yes, they all go together and I consider it advanced. Meaning most beginners will have a hard time adding in the legs properly.

Greg, I took a quick look, and your arming the ball. Even though it looks like your using your legs and torso, well, it's not contributing much right now.
 
Greg G

Greg G

Professional
OK I haven't done this in a while, but I wanted to get into the nitty gritty of it, if I'm not using the kinetic chain optimally.

It's the 3rd serve in the previously posted video.

https://vimeo.com/107238452

Annotated video at 25% speed. And yes I chose a serve that was way wide LOL.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P_-z3VtPhc

Legend:
red-racquet tip
cyan- back hip
blue- wrist
blue (oops, but you can tell which is which)- front foot
light green- ball
The dots on the lines give an indication of relative speeds. Video quality was not the best so much of the points were plotted manually.

Here are the stills, with my annotations on what I think is happening. Please do correct me, and tell me what you guys think is right or wrong.

Trophy position. This is also the deepest knee bend. I think my hand/elbow could be closer to my head, but not too sure about it.
Also, am not sure if my backfoot coming too far right impedes the kinetic chain in any way. It doesn't seem to open my hips too much. Or maybe it prevents them from being turned further away?
serve1endtrophy_zps0a93b6d6.jpg


Full knee extension. The leg drive initiated the backscratch.
serve2fullkneeextension_zps0f1d769c.jpg


Deepest backscratch. Shoulders now even.
serve3deepestbs_zpscd916e7f.jpg


Highest hip elevation. Hip and shoulder turning. Shoulder over shoulder cartwheel complete.
serve4highesthipelevation_zps41892387.jpg
 
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Greg G

Greg G

Professional
Off arm at its lowest point, elbow nearing highest point.
serve5lowestoffarm_zps53b58a41.jpg


Contact at the highest point. Toss has dropped a little, ball barely accelerating down. Highest point of the front foot, but note I am probably on the way down. Perhaps more power from the legs would have me hitting the ball while rising. That and a gajillion squats.
serve6contacthighestelevation_zpscc66b8df.jpg


Landing on balance.
serve7landing_zpsc401e7f5.jpg


Shoulders square up to the net.
serve8shouldersparallelbs_zps9d1c8cfa.jpg
 
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Greg G

Greg G

Professional
Hip squares up to the net. Server realizes it's a fault :D
serve9followthrough_zps9b800656.jpg


Recovery step.
serve91recovery_zpsce5bd687.jpg


So there. Yes my arm could be looser and I am probably arming it too much. Need a clearer direction here.

Yes Chas I will take the Casio next time and not the GoPro ;)
 
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C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
I have been wondering..............

Catch a few from behind, camera viewing parallel to the ball's trajectory.
 
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C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
That alignment is pretty close, your ball goes to the right a bit. That camera alignment would be better for wide serves to the other side of that service box.

If it could be done perfectly the ball would travel only away and hardly move to the right or left. But we never know the direction of the serve exactly. From where the ball is impacted, I believe that the service box subtends about 14°. If you eyeball the camera to look at the center of the service box with the impact point in the center then the widest in serves will be +/- 7° to perfect alignment with the camera.

Indoors, light level can be a problem that causes motion blur.

I posted a lot on the camera set up for serves, especially so that some frames can be caught that show useful angles even with low frame rate cameras. Lots of camera angles show parts of the serve very well. I just picked along or perpendicular to the trajectory so that I could estimate certain angles better, for example, the forearm-racket angle at impact.

For camera set up and arm and racket angles seen on poster's serves, search TW: camera behind Chas Tennis
 
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C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
Greg G said:
This angle?

https://vimeo.com/107238453

Having said that, I think there's a lot to analyze from the one I processed above...
Click to expand...

I have not done much on the overall swing path and ball trajectory that your tracking shows.

I mostly compare arm, racket and ball checkpoints on high level serves to the same checkpoints on other serves. Since the camera's point of view affects how things look I try to compare using the same or very similar camera viewpoints. Motion blur is very important for seeing the arm, racket and ball, etc.

You have done the same comparing superimposing racket paths for high level strokes. When the camera viewpoints are similar the results can also be very useful. The overall path results from the checkpoints, is more difficult to compare, less accurate because of the 3D nature of the serve..... If a checkpoint is off does the swing path mean much after that................
 
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Greg G

Greg G

Professional
Yesterday's footage. Seems pretty good, been getting the toss farther out in front. Just have to keep doing that during a match...under pressure it doesn't go as far in front.

http://youtu.be/U1Mnl6PHfhE

Working on placement now, just the basic slice out wide, flat down the T in the deuce, topspin out wide, flat down the T in the ad.
 
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