How do you tell if your machine is setup properly?

Alexrb · Feb 21, 2017

I've got a Gamma Progression II with a wise recently added on, and I've been having issues with my PS 85's cracking (favorite of the lot too). I tend to think it's not the machine, based on my thoughts in that thread, but I still want to make sure my other frames aren't being put under unnecessary stress. How do I go about doing that without mailing the whole machine in somewhere?

PS 85 thread:
https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?threads/ps85-cracking.583771/#post-10994955

I can post pictures or video of specific parts of the machine if that helps.

Daniel_K · Feb 21, 2017

I have that machine. unless you are really cranking down the mounting then it should not be the machine at all. If you have one of the older versions you can move the 4 movable mounting points.

The way that it is cracking is very odd, because to crack in that way i would think it would have to do with the stringing method. Are you string the crosses top down or bottom up?

esgee48 · Feb 21, 2017

I am also tracking this issue. You stated this does not happen with your other frames from other manufacturers.
[0] Did you ever have this issue with the original tensioner?
[1] Do you go over or under when doing the mains near the throat? I always go under but will admit that's my preference and that there is no standard.
[2] How fast is your WISE pulling? Fast or slow? I don't think it really makes a difference, so go fast.
[3] How does the string slide on the throat? Does it slip readily or sort of gets stuck?
[4] Would you be willing to reinstall the original tensioner and do a frame with that?
I am trying to determine if it is the supports or the tensioner.

To answer you OP, the machine was assembled by you. I assume you did it right since you could string with it. It would not be worth it to send it somewhere. Only thing I would do is review the assembly instructions and recheck your machine.

Irvin · Feb 21, 2017

I may be way out in right field on this one but maybe @Gamma Tech can chime in here. Bear with me for a minute. You're stringing these frames with 2 piece string jobs from the top down for crosses if I understand you correctly. This will distribute the stress on the frame towards the bottom of the frame if I understand it correctly. But since the throats is the stronger part of the racket that's a good thing. The Progression II has two standards and my guess is you are only going to be moving one of them. Therefore, chances are either the top or bottom standard is closer to the turntable pivot. So here's my question to @Gamma Tech, would there be any less stress on the lower sides of the hoop is the lower standard we're closer or farther from the turntable pivot?

If John (Gamma Tech) does not respond I'd call him. This is more an engineering question (John's area of expertise) and way over my head.

esgee48 · Feb 21, 2017

Irvin has a very good point. There is more give the further you are from the middle of the turntable/bar. So the frame would have to flex more the closer it is to the middle. That's the theory.

Alexrb · Feb 21, 2017

Daniel_K said:
I have that machine. unless you are really cranking down the mounting then it should not be the machine at all. If you have one of the older versions you can move the 4 movable mounting points.

The way that it is cracking is very odd, because to crack in that way i would think it would have to do with the stringing method. Are you string the crosses top down or bottom up?

I'm not cranking down that hard on the mounting points, and always crosses top down.

Alexrb · Feb 21, 2017

esgee48 said:
I am also tracking this issue. You stated this does not happen with your other frames from other manufacturers.
[0] Did you ever have this issue with the original tensioner?
[1] Do you go over or under when doing the mains near the throat? I always go under but will admit that's my preference and that there is no standard.
[2] How fast is your WISE pulling? Fast or slow? I don't think it really makes a difference, so go fast.
[3] How does the string slide on the throat? Does it slip readily or sort of gets stuck?
[4] Would you be willing to reinstall the original tensioner and do a frame with that?
I am trying to determine if it is the supports or the tensioner.

To answer you OP, the machine was assembled by you. I assume you did it right since you could string with it. It would not be worth it to send it somewhere. Only thing I would do is review the assembly instructions and recheck your machine.

0) Yes, I just recently got the wise. Timeline wise in order it goes; 2013 Acquired one PS85, 2015 acquired stringer, mid 2016 got wise, Dec 2016 got two more 85s and noticed a similar crack to my original one (which I thought was just due to age) after just two jobs

1) Always under

2) Not sure honestly, set to constant pull at whatever default is.

3) What do you mean by that?

4) I honestly don't think the tensioner is the culprit given the old 85 has had a crack way before I got the wise, but I would if that helped.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Alexrb · Feb 21, 2017

Irvin said:
I may be way out in right field on this one but maybe @Gamma Tech can chime in here. Bear with me for a minute. You're stringing these frames with 2 piece string jobs from the top down for crosses if I understand you correctly. This will distribute the stress on the frame towards the bottom of the frame if I understand it correctly. But since the throats is the stronger part of the racket that's a good thing. The Progression II has two standards and my guess is you are only going to be moving one of them. Therefore, chances are either the top or bottom standard is closer to the turntable pivot. So here's my question to @Gamma Tech, would there be any less stress on the lower sides of the hoop is the lower standard we're closer or farther from the turntable pivot?

If John (Gamma Tech) does not respond I'd call him. This is more an engineering question (John's area of expertise) and way over my head.

Yes, two piece always (don't know how to ATW yet) and always top to bottom cross wise.

Are 'standards' the mounts at 12 and 6 o clock? If so, I tend to move both roughly equidistant when mounting or unmounting a frame. I honestly have no idea where my frame is relative to the tension head (in terms of closer, further, or in the middle). It hasn't been something I've paid attention to, or thought I needed to. Should it be?

Also, what about the fact that I have strung my PS90s roughly 10 times a piece and there are no cracks? Similar racket should produce similar results if it's the stringer right?

Thanks again

Irvin · Feb 21, 2017

Sorry @Alexrb I can't address your questions. Except to tie a string from 6 to 12 o'clock support and mark the string in the center. Spin the turntable, is the mark in the center or does it form a circle?

Alexrb · Feb 21, 2017

Irvin said:
Sorry @Alexrb I can't address your questions. Except to tie a string from 6 to 12 o'clock support and mark the string in the center. Spin the turntable, is the mark in the center or does it form a circle?

Ahh, no worries. I'll check when I get home.

Would you send the rackets to TW or just keep them? Shipping from FL isn't cheap, and it doesn't seem worth it if Wilson just rejects the claim. There's also the chance it is my stringer and it happens again if I get them swapped out. Like I said, I love the rackets, just not sure what to do at this point. I'm no expert, but the old one looks clearly structural, and that seems to be where the new ones are headed.

Irvin · Feb 21, 2017

Not sure

Herb · Feb 21, 2017

When you set up your Wise did you remove the shipping screw to prevent over tensioning. (Assuming it came with one).

Alexrb · Feb 21, 2017

Herb said:
When you set up your Wise did you remove the shipping screw to prevent over tensioning. (Assuming it came with one).

I don't remember removing a shipping screw and am honestly not sure if it came with one. I can look, where would this be located on the wise?

esgee48 · Feb 21, 2017

[3] How does the string slide on the throat? Does it slip readily or sort of gets stuck?
Sometimes the string gets stuck when going under the throat when pulled. At that point, there extra pressure on the frame. It should not last long and does not sound like your problem.

Your default speed should be 3-Fastest according to manual.

Has the length of the 'fracture' increased or remained the same? If it keeps getting longer, your frame is flexing more at that area. If it remains the same, then it may not be cracked after all. [crossed fingers and toes!

]

Still waiting on the results of your sound test (tapping with object) and your thoughts/conclusions.

Irvin · Feb 21, 2017

@esgee48 you gave me an idea. The cracks are from 7T to 11T and the Wise may be pulling from a low angle relative to the height of the racket putting more stress on the frame.

Alexrb · Feb 21, 2017

Irvin said:
@esgee48 you gave me an idea. The cracks are from 7T to 11T and the Wise may be pulling from a low angle relative to the height of the racket putting more stress on the frame.

Possibly, but the old 85 started showing the crack long before I had the wise.

I measured from the end of the 12/6 mounts to the end of the turntable, since the dot thing was kind of hard to tell. The measurements were just under 4 inches and just over 4 inches, so not exactly the middle, but doesn't seem extreme either.

Alexrb · Feb 21, 2017

esgee48 said:
[3] How does the string slide on the throat? Does it slip readily or sort of gets stuck?
Sometimes the string gets stuck when going under the throat when pulled. At that point, there extra pressure on the frame. It should not last long and does not sound like your problem.

Your default speed should be 3-Fastest according to manual.

Has the length of the 'fracture' increased or remained the same? If it keeps getting longer, your frame is flexing more at that area. If it remains the same, then it may not be cracked after all. [crossed fingers and toes! ]

Still waiting on the results of your sound test (tapping with object) and your thoughts/conclusions.

I recently restrung the old one before posting all this/realizing it may all be related. In the meantime, I haven't restrung the new ones. There isn't any noticeable pinging difference in the new ones that are unstrung, but the crack is relatively small. Once I hit a couple more times with the old one, I'll cut it out and test the sound of that one.

I'd say the crack has definitely gotten larger on the old one, but honestly I haven't been keeping tabs on it. It's my oldest racket, so I chaulked it up to old age/typical wear and tear/numerous stringings. It wasn't until recently when I noticed the same problem with the new ones that I took real interest.

esgee48 · Feb 21, 2017

I am grabbing at straws with this. Could be a 'wild ass idea.' I looked at the pictures of the side supports at TW. If the side support are current, then when the string is pulled, the frame is pulled down towards the flat area of the side support. That will provide support for the frame there. When you pull the mains inside the throat, is the frame trying to rise? I am assuming the strings come out the grommet, goes UNDER the throat and then rises towards the tension head.

It may be a silly idea, but if you do not use the diabolo, put it on, and when pulling the mains there, go OVER the throat since that will force the frame down into the flat area of the side support.

This seems silly since there is no standard (OVER or UNDER) when pulling mains inside the throat. It should be whichever minimizes the angle into the tension head.

Irvin · Feb 21, 2017

The newer Gamma stringers have C type side supports not sure what the OP has

This will give you an idea if the pulling direction in the throat

Alexrb · Feb 21, 2017

esgee48 said:
I am grabbing at straws with this. Could be a 'wild ass idea.' I looked at the pictures of the side supports at TW. If the side support are current, then when the string is pulled, the frame is pulled down towards the flat area of the side support. That will provide support for the frame there. When you pull the mains inside the throat, is the frame trying to rise? I am assuming the strings come out the grommet, goes UNDER the throat and then rises towards the tension head.

It may be a silly idea, but if you do not use the diabolo, put it on, and when pulling the mains there, go OVER the throat since that will force the frame down into the flat area of the side support.

This seems silly since there is no standard (OVER or UNDER) when pulling mains inside the throat. It should be whichever minimizes the angle into the tension head.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6CSC_TPsXS8b3JIbEdFR0pKX1U

See the above vid, it took me recording that to understand what you were asking. I would say the frame isn't trying to rise, it goes under the throat and then from what I can see goes down into the diabolo towards the tension head, not up.

Thoughts?

Alexrb · Feb 21, 2017

Irvin said:
The newer Gamma stringers have C type side supports not sure what the OP has

This will give you an idea if the pulling direction in the throat

My machine below;
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B6CSC_TPsXS8b3JIbEdFR0pKX1U

My machine is an older model that I bought second hand, probably should have mentioned that sorry.

I'm going to laugh if the real culprit is my excessive shanking.

esgee48 · Feb 22, 2017

You have the older K mounts. How snug do you make the side supports? They should be tight against the frame so that it requires effort to wiggle the frame. While I could not see it, make sure your 6 and 12 standards also make firm contact with the frame.

When you finish your string jobs, is the frame easy to take off the machine? Or does it require effort, i.e. you have to loosen the lower side mounts, the upper side mounts, then the standards? If so, your frame was slightly compressed because contact with the stringer's support was not good.

Is your frames' lenght the same before and after?

Alexrb · Feb 23, 2017

esgee48 said:
You have the older K mounts. How snug do you make the side supports? They should be tight against the frame so that it requires effort to wiggle the frame. While I could not see it, make sure your 6 and 12 standards also make firm contact with the frame.

When you finish your string jobs, is the frame easy to take off the machine? Or does it require effort, i.e. you have to loosen the lower side mounts, the upper side mounts, then the standards? If so, your frame was slightly compressed because contact with the stringer's support was not good.

Is your frames' lenght the same before and after?

I make sure they are snug, not too tight and roughly centered (including the 6/12 mounts).

It's not easy to remove, I typically have to loosen each support several times before I can wiggle the racket free.

What I decided was to take more pictures of the newer rackets and string them a couple more times to see if it worsens. If it does, I'll send them back to TW to determine if it's structural or a paint crack. I hope I don't have to, because they're saying if the warranty claim is approved they'll give me a 'similar frame of the same brand at Tennis Warehouse’s discretion' given that they don't sell the 85 anymore. I'm not honestly sure what that would be, as they don't currently sell anything like the 85 =/.

In regards to the stringer, I'm not really sure how to determine whether or not it's the culprit. I could post a video of me stringing if that helps, but I can't see how anything I do stringing wise would put unnecessary stress on the frame. It's not like I string absurdly high tension or tension differences either (max 55 on the PS 85).

Regardless, thanks to you and Irvin for your thoughts. Haven't heard from the Gamma Tech yet, but would be curious as to his thoughts before ending this thread.

Irvin · Feb 23, 2017

I'm not sure what snug means to you, could be completely different from what I think snug is. I'd call Gamma Tech and talk to him he has always been extremely helpful for me. As far as dismounting the frame. Try to loosen the 6 o'clock support first, then lower side supports then 12 and your rackets should come out easier.

esgee48 · Feb 23, 2017

I mount so that the frames cannot be moved without significant effort. Probably 20 ft lb of torque. When I finish my frames, the racquets come right off once I loosen the standard at 6. My lengths are the same going in as coming out. Sounds like your frames are distoring which is why I inquired about lenghts. Good Luck.

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