Formula 1

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G.O.A.T.
Man of steel said:
He moves left to avoid Vettel who is defending. Do you even know formula1?. If the pole sitter or anyone in front has a slightly worse start they naturally move to defend their position. Verstappen moves as its his right just like its Vettels right to defend.
Both however didn't expext kimi to be alongside Verstappen which is where the main issue arises. Versappen realises this and tries to avoid contact with kim by slightly lifting off because Vettel is still steering left towards them and still unaware that kim is also there.
Its a racing incident. I certainly wouldn't blame it on either Verstappen or kimi.
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The strong prevailing thinking from those who actually understand F1 is that Vettel was most at fault but it's a racing incident and no extra penalties will be required... and I'm inclined to agree. It's not a hard one to call nor understand.
 
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Impressive today from Hamilton given that the Red Bulls appeared faster in quali and also long run simulations. Ricciardo may have been able to challenge more fiercely but was nursing gearbox issues, however Hamilton was a class above in the wet. The question is more about how Ricciardo may have challenged Hamilton in the dry after they went to the USofts had Ricciardo been able to extract the maximum out of his car.
 
J

JW10S

Hall of Fame
Re: Singapore--3 cars cannot fit into one space. Unfortunately on tight courses like Singapore the race is often won or lost in the first corner. Whoever leads coming out of the 1st corner usually wins the race--something F1 needs to address.
 
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Kalin

Kalin

Legend
Man of steel said:
He moves left to avoid Vettel who is defending. Do you even know formula1?. If the pole sitter or anyone in front has a slightly worse start they naturally move to defend their position. Verstappen moves as its his right just like its Vettels right to defend.
Both however didn't expext kimi to be alongside Verstappen which is where the main issue arises. Versappen realises this and tries to avoid contact with kim by slightly lifting off because Vettel is still steering left towards them and still unaware that kim is also there.
Its a racing incident. I certainly wouldn't blame it on either Verstappen or kimi.
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I do know F1, the pole sitter is allowed to move. Admittedly Vettel moved hard and I don't argue that his move may have eventually caused a crash... had it not been for Verstappen having caused it already by moving and crashing into Kimi long before Vettel came over. Watch the replay in slo-mo from the front camera and it's obvious.

Had Verstappen held his line as he falsely claimed he could have hit the brakes. But he was already crashing into Kimi so both cars were out of control. Vettel's move was bad, granted, but Verstappen was going to wipe Kimi out regardless of what Vettel was doing and that's my whole point. Marko is an idiot and is quickly running out of excuses.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo said:
Max hasn't done much wrong this season, but every race, he gets f***ed up the a**.
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He could well have won the race given his skills in the wet. I'm sure he'd have crushed Ricciardo in those conditions and then it comes down to Hamilton and Vettel - assuming they both stay in the race.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo

G.O.A.T.
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He could well have won the race given his skills in the wet. I'm sure he'd have crushed Ricciardo in those conditions and then it comes down to Hamilton and Vettel - assuming they both stay in the race.
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That, and if Red Bull can give him a car that can last through an entire race, and not explode in 10 laps.
 
chmee

chmee

Professional
Kalin said:
Watch the replay, Verstappen is going hard left to block Kimi and arrives late, as he always does;
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Max didn't move sideaways a bit. He is just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Vettel is fighting for the Championship w/ Lewis, so he shouldn't care about Max, right? Driving such an atrocious maneuver against Max anyway proved to be very costly. A more clever driver would have said well let Max (who got the better start) go and maybe I can catch him later on. As it is, he may well have thrown out the title in this race.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo

G.O.A.T.
chmee said:
Max didn't move sideaways a bit. He is just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Vettel is fighting for the Championship w/ Lewis, so he shouldn't care about Max, right? Driving such an atrocious maneuver against Max anyway proved to be very costly. A more clever driver would have said well let Max (who got the better start) go and maybe I can catch him later on. As it is, he may well have thrown out the title in this race.
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This isn't the first time Vettel has made a careless move and jeopardized another racer in the field, and I'm just talking about this season alone.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo said:
This isn't the first time Vettel has made a careless move and jeopardized another racer in the field, and I'm just talking about this season alone.
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He has a habit of being aggressive into the first corner and so does Max. In this instance though it's on Vettel and also frankly I have no idea what Kimi was thinking in turning in given he was the only one who could really see what was going on. Obviously, the incident would look different if there was no car in the middle and Vettel wouldn't have to move aggressively but if you take a look at the incident it's clear that if Max vanished Vettel would have hit Kimi anyway.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo

G.O.A.T.
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He has a habit of being aggressive into the first corner and so does Max. In this instance though it's on Vettel and also frankly I have no idea what Kimi was thinking in turning in given he was the only one who could really see what was going on. Obviously, the incident would look different if there was no car in the middle and Vettel wouldn't have to move aggressively but if you take a look at the incident it's clear that if Max vanished Vettel would have hit Kimi anyway.
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Yeah, I agree, don't know what Kimi was doing on the outside and why he thought he had any business there. Just got to feel for Versteppan, we've seen how amazing he is. But this year, it's just crashes and repeated mechanical failures.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo said:
Yeah, I agree, don't know what Kimi was doing on the outside and why he thought he had any business there. Just got to feel for Versteppan, we've seen how amazing he is. But this year, it's just crashes and repeated mechanical failures.
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On the inside.. I mean I guess Kimi didn't want to have some acute angle heading into the first corner after his blazing start up the inside but he could see the two cars in front of him, though couldn't anticipate that Vettel was about to kamikaze. Max has had a nightmare season and I don't really know why. I definitely see him as future multiple WDC material.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo

G.O.A.T.
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On the inside.. I mean I guess Kimi didn't want to have some acute angle heading into the first corner after his blazing start up the inside but he could see the two cars in front of him, though couldn't anticipate that Vettel was about to kamikaze. Max has had a nightmare season and I don't really know why. I definitely see him as future multiple WDC material.
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Errggg... did I switch the two Ferrari's around?
 
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G.O.A.T.
If you did mix them up I can also understand why you'd think it's mainly Kimi's fault and I can see that argument myself. There's a lot of nuance in this incident and the combo of Kimi's blistering start and Vettel being under severe pressure from Verstappen had to both happen together to create the incident.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo

G.O.A.T.
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Vettel cut across in the middle and Kimi shot up the inside and turned in and together they sandwiched poor boy Max.


Just to refresh..
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Yep, I had them switched. My bad. Ok, Vettel gets some slack this time. But his history isn't helping the cause though.

And Max Versteppan, I mean what else can you say about his season? When it rains, it pours.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo

G.O.A.T.
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If you did mix them up I can also understand why you'd think it's mainly Kimi's fault and I can see that argument myself. There's a lot of nuance in this incident and the combo of Kimi's blistering start and Vettel being under severe pressure from Verstappen had to both happen together to create the incident.
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These Ferrari cars man. I swear, each time they start in the top 3, they seem to take someone out (or themselves too).
 
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G.O.A.T.
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
These Ferrari cars man. I swear, each time they start in the top 3, they seem to take someone out (or themselves too).
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The only thing I really struggle to understand is why Vettel took such a risk with the sharp turn in when he's in such a tight race for the WDC. I really think Hamilton would have won the race regardless although, given what Max did in Brazil last year in the wet, I wonder if he could have also taken the race win. Those two guys are often brilliant in mixed or wet conditions. Button was probably the best in mixed and changeable conditions and in the full wet I'd say Hamilton is best but Verstappen might already be as good or better but we need more wet races for evidence.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo

G.O.A.T.
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The only thing I really struggle to understand is why Vettel took such a risk with the sharp turn in when he's in such a tight race for the WDC. I really think Hamilton would have won the race regardless although, given what Max did in Brazil last year in the wet, I wonder if he could have also taken the race win. Those two guys are often brilliant in mixed or wet conditions. Button was probably the best in mixed and changeable conditions and in the full wet I'd say Hamilton is best but Verstappen might already be as good or better but we need more wet races for evidence.
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Had it been not for the crash, and (probably) the eventual mechanical failure, I had my money on Versteppan. In the slick, no one was going to touch him.

But yeah, in regards to Vettel (now that I have the right car, haha), I think he would have still came out in 3rd after the corner if they all survived that. Simply because as you mentioned, Kimi and Versteppan started off like gangbusters.
 
Kalin

Kalin

Legend
chmee said:
Max didn't move sideaways a bit. He is just in the wrong place at the wrong time...
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Yes, he did, and not just a bit. I know you guys like Max (and I do too, he's a great driver when he isn't crashing into people 30% of the time) but it's hard to deny the obvious :) He does move left to block (to repeat, as he always does), as much as nobody wants to admit it. It's right there on the video.

No argument that Vettel's move was stupid. But Max was crashing into Kimi all the way, Vettel or not.
 
Shangri La

Shangri La

Hall of Fame
Kalin said:
Yes, he did, and not just a bit. I know you guys like Max (and I do too, he's a great driver when he isn't crashing into people 30% of the time) but it's hard to deny the obvious :) He does move left to block (to repeat, as he always does), as much as nobody wants to admit it. It's right there on the video.

No argument that Vettel's move was stupid. But Max was crashing into Kimi all the way, Vettel or not.
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I have to agree with you.

https://you tu.be/U2T1_VrTcoo?t=15

https://you tu.be/czHPM0UjLNc?t=18

(forum does parse link with timestamp properly, please remove the space)

Watch the videos at 0.25 speed. Kimi mostly kept a straight line throughout. Verstappen started moving towards Kimi when he saw Kimi passing him, at which time he still had plenty of space with Vettel. Vettel's move deceivingly appeared to be the cause of the incident but I dont think it was. It was hard but he had the right to do so and Verstappen had much more aggressive "defense" of his leading position in other races.

I'd say this is an unfortunate incident and no penalties ruling was fair. If someone *had* to be faulted, I'd have to say Verstappen.

PS: I do think Kimi intentionally took out Verstappen after the first crash, which I find to be a courageous revenge lol.
 
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Kalin

Kalin

Legend
Shangri La said:
I have to agree with you.

https://you tu.be/U2T1_VrTcoo?t=15

https://you tu.be/czHPM0UjLNc?t=18

(forum does parse link with timestamp properly, please remove the space)

Watch the videos at 0.25 speed. Kimi mostly kept a straight line throughout. Verstappen started moving towards Kimi when he saw Kimi passing him, at which time he still had plenty of space with Vettel. Vettel's move deceivingly appeared to be the cause of the incident but I dont think it was. It was hard but he had the right to do so and Verstappen had much more aggressive "defense" of his leading position in other races.

I'd say this is an unfortunate incident and no penalties ruling was fair. If someone *had* to be faulted, I'd have to say Verstappen.

PS: I do think Kimi intentionally took out Verstappen after the first crash, which I find to be a courageous revenge lol.
Click to expand...

Thanks, finally someone with a working pair of eyes. You should replace Helmut Marko in the Red Bull dugout ;)

Not sure how much control Kimi had over his car but I sure hope you're right.
 
Man of steel

Man of steel

Hall of Fame
Shangri La said:
I have to agree with you.

https://you tu.be/U2T1_VrTcoo?t=15

https://you tu.be/czHPM0UjLNc?t=18

(forum does parse link with timestamp properly, please remove the space)

Watch the videos at 0.25 speed. Kimi mostly kept a straight line throughout. Verstappen started moving towards Kimi when he saw Kimi passing him, at which time he still had plenty of space with Vettel. Vettel's move deceivingly appeared to be the cause of the incident but I dont think it was. It was hard but he had the right to do so and Verstappen had much more aggressive "defense" of his leading position in other races.

I'd say this is an unfortunate incident and no penalties ruling was fair. If someone *had* to be faulted, I'd have to say Verstappen.

PS: I do think Kimi intentionally took out Verstappen after the first crash, which I find to be a courageous revenge lol.
Click to expand...
Clearly you need your eyes checked. Right before the contact between kimi and Ves, kimi's wheel was slightly pointed towards verstappen.
Look at 8-9 seconds and pause the video put the video in slow motion. You can clearly see kimi's wheel at a slight angle towards verstappen. So it wasn't clearly straight. It was just enough for their wheels to interlock with each other to cause the incident.
At the same time you can see at that moment in time verstappen is slightly and i emphasise slightly pointing away from kimi but also releases the throttle to avoid vettel.
But then a split millisecond later it was too late as the contact was made.
Also notice how kimi still had half a meter on the inside to the white line that he should have used but didn't. That line woyld have been a lot drier which would have offered him more grip.


I'm not shy of blaming verstappen when he makes a mistake but this was clearly not one of them.
 
Shangri La

Shangri La

Hall of Fame
Man of steel said:
Clearly you need your eyes checked. Right before the contact between kimi and Ves, kimi's wheel was slightly pointed towards verstappen.
Look at 8-9 seconds and pause the video put the video in slow motion. You can clearly see kimi's wheel at a slight angle towards verstappen. So it wasn't clearly straight. It was just enough for their wheels to interlock with each other to cause the incident.
At the same time you can see at that moment in time verstappen is slightly and i emphasise slightly pointing away from kimi but also releases the throttle to avoid vettel.
But then a split millisecond later it was too late as the contact was made.
Also notice how kimi still had half a meter on the inside to the white line that he should have used but didn't. That line woyld have been a lot drier which would have offered him more grip.


I'm not shy of blaming verstappen when he makes a mistake but this was clearly not one of them.
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Whatever your opinion is, drop those eye check lines. You can see here https://you tu.be/czHPM0UjLNc?t=18 around 20 second mark Verstappen steered towards Kimi clearly, and I mean clearly. At which time, 1, Kimi already caught up Ver and was going at higher speed in straight line, and 2, Ver had plenty space from Vettel. And unfortunately Ver has a track record of doing these things.
 
chmee

chmee

Professional
Nice one from our SkySports Team

OEt3q0q.jpg
 
Man of steel

Man of steel

Hall of Fame
Shangri La said:
Whatever your opinion is, drop those eye check lines. You can see here https://you tu.be/czHPM0UjLNc?t=18 around 20 second mark Verstappen steered towards Kimi clearly, and I mean clearly. At which time, 1, Kimi already caught up Ver and was going at higher speed in straight line, and 2, Ver had plenty space from Vettel. And unfortunately Ver has a track record of doing these things.
Click to expand...
Vertappen steered towards the space infront of kimi because Vettel was closing the distance between them. There was barely any space between Vettel and Verstappen. Verstappens front wing was right beside Vettels rear left tyre. That why Verstappen was avoiding Vettel.
Vettel had no idea kimi was coming up on the other side. His over-agressive defending which would have been justified in any other situation if kimi wasn't there.

Anyway once verstappen realised kimi was right beside him he straigtened up however vettel was still moving over to the left oblivious to kimi and the fact that he couldn't move verstappen any further to the left.

If kimi didn't have contact with verstappen then Vettel would have and he would have spun right into kimi's path.

Either way there wasn't anything verstappen could do as he was the only person who knew what was going to happen and tried to lift off the throttle.
The other 2 were completely oblivious to each other being on the other side (well more so vettel).
 
Kalin

Kalin

Legend
Man of steel said:
Vertappen steered towards the space infront of kimi because Vettel was closing the distance between them.
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Just no. Max steers towards Kimi much earlier than Vettel's move with the intention to block Kimi's car. Watch Max racing; he does this all the time. This time he arrived late since Kimi was too fast.

Edit: I'm not saying this because of some extrapolation that since Max does it all the time he must have done it now. I'm basing it on the fact that Max actually does do it :)
 
speedysteve

speedysteve

Legend
Post qually interview with Johnny H

Max "I don't want to be sandwiched"

Kimi "and I don't want to be hit"

LOL

Well done Lewis. Cementing current qually goat..
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo

G.O.A.T.
Shangri La said:
What's wrong with Ferrari's cars?? /facepalm
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Better question is, what was Ferrari's strategy for Vettel's final 5 laps? Switched to the Super Soft at the half way point of the race. Pushed like hell from there on and then he had no tires left in the last 5 laps.

Why didn't they just stick with the yellow Soft tires? He was killing the field with them in the 1st half of the race.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo said:
Better question is, what was Ferrari's strategy for Vettel's final 5 laps? Switched to the Super Soft at the half way point of the race. Pushed like hell from there on and then he had no tires left in the last 5 laps.

Why didn't they just stick with the yellow Soft tires? He was killing the field with them in the 1st half of the race.
Click to expand...

Hope you enjoyed the race. It was a stellar and faultless job from Verstappen. Ferrari might have had the pace to challenge but we know what happened with them over the weekend. Regarding strategy...

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1/rules-regs/tyres-and-wheels.html
"Unless wet or intermediate tyres are used during the race, all drivers must use at least two different specifications of dry-weather tyres in the race, at least one of which must be one of the two mandatory sets nominated by Pirelli, though the teams are free to decide which one."

Vettel started on the S while the rest generally started on SS, so they had to use SS for Vettel's second stint.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo

G.O.A.T.
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Hope you enjoyed the race. It was a stellar and faultless job from Verstappen. Ferrari might have had the pace to challenge but we know what happened with them over the weekend. Regarding strategy...

https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1/rules-regs/tyres-and-wheels.html
"Unless wet or intermediate tyres are used during the race, all drivers must use at least two different specifications of dry-weather tyres in the race, at least one of which must be one of the two mandatory sets nominated by Pirelli, though the teams are free to decide which one."

Vettel started on the S while the rest generally started on SS, so they had to use SS for Vettel's second stint.
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Well, I did not know that. Thanks!

I wonder if anything happened to Hamilton's car in the 2nd or 3rd lap when Verstappen overtook him. Because you'd think Mercedez's power could reel him back in later, right?

You guys see how Vettel got bamboozled in the cool down lap? Haha.
 
speedysteve

speedysteve

Legend
Vettel was knackered after the charge and a very physically demanding circuit and suffered brain fade on the cool down lap.
Why he knee jerks and blames anybody else but himself I can't understand.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo said:
Well, I did not know that. Thanks!

I wonder if anything happened to Hamilton's car in the 2nd or 3rd lap when Verstappen overtook him. Because you'd think Mercedez's power could reel him back in later, right?

You guys see how Vettel got bamboozled in the cool down lap? Haha.
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He was derating, meaning that his battery wasn't giving him the full extra 160 BHP or so for the whole of the straight. Max and Red Bull caught wind of it and used up all their battery power on the straight to make the move stick. Also, the Red Bull was the better car through practice and in the race. The chassis and balance and efficiency of the tyre usage in very hot conditions favoured the Red Bull car over the Mercedes car, so even if Hamilton could have defended early he would have been under pressure for the whole race, whereas once Verstappen made the pass Hamilton didn't have the pace to respond. That was in line with all the long run data from the weekend running, which is why I was unimpressed with Ricciardo who really should have been able to hunt down Hamilton.

Verstappen went a long way to continuing to prove he's in league with the very best today. Ricciardo has twice not had the measure of Hamilton when he's had the machinery to outdo him in the conditions of Singapore and Malaysia. Red Bull should be back down to third best car again for Suzuka with Ferrari and Mercedes out ahead, but the Merc camp seems very concerned right now and their latest upgrades haven't worked.

Ferrari probably had an even better car than Red Bull today but their bad luck meant that we didn't get to see Vettel give Verstappen a fight.

Bottas was woeful and has been for ages...
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
Will Formula 1 race cars ever be made with Electric motor ??? you would think that would make the car go even faster..?
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
-NN- said:
You bamboozle me.
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I would much prefer the Electric motor Formula 1 race cars,,,, it will get rid of all that Awful Noise the engine makes. and Electric motor has Higher torque ratio than traditional engine so acturally Formula 1 cars could exceed 250 mph in theory.
 
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Say Chi Sin Lo

G.O.A.T.
-NN- said:
He was derating, meaning that his battery wasn't giving him the full extra 160 BHP or so for the whole of the straight. Max and Red Bull caught wind of it and used up all their battery power on the straight to make the move stick. Also, the Red Bull was the better car through practice and in the race. The chassis and balance and efficiency of the tyre usage in very hot conditions favoured the Red Bull car over the Mercedes car, so even if Hamilton could have defended early he would have been under pressure for the whole race, whereas once Verstappen made the pass Hamilton didn't have the pace to respond. That was in line with all the long run data from the weekend running, which is why I was unimpressed with Ricciardo who really should have been able to hunt down Hamilton.

Verstappen went a long way to continuing to prove he's in league with the very best today. Ricciardo has twice not had the measure of Hamilton when he's had the machinery to outdo him in the conditions of Singapore and Malaysia. Red Bull should be back down to third best car again for Suzuka with Ferrari and Mercedes out ahead, but the Merc camp seems very concerned right now and their latest upgrades haven't worked.

Ferrari probably had an even better car than Red Bull today but their bad luck meant that we didn't get to see Vettel give Verstappen a fight.

Bottas was woeful and has been for ages...
Click to expand...

Yeah, the commentators tried to explain "derating" and then they kind of gave up after a while. They also mentioned that Hamilton knew the Red Bull cars were good on this track.

I'm just glad that Verstappen's car made it through the whole race, and no one T-Boned him.
 
Shangri La

Shangri La

Hall of Fame
Say Chi Sin Lo said:
Better question is, what was Ferrari's strategy for Vettel's final 5 laps? Switched to the Super Soft at the half way point of the race. Pushed like hell from there on and then he had no tires left in the last 5 laps.

Why didn't they just stick with the yellow Soft tires? He was killing the field with them in the 1st half of the race.
Click to expand...

Guess the driver and constructor champion are pretty much settled after Singapore and Malaysia.
 
speedysteve

speedysteve

Legend
Nostradamus said:
Will Formula 1 race cars ever be made with Electric motor ??? you would think that would make the car go even faster..?
Click to expand...
There is Formula E today.
Run on street circuits it's all a bit boring.
Put them on the current F1 circuits with enough battery to do a GP could work. The latter may be a problem today, but not in 2-5 years perhaps.

No reason why electric could not be as fast as current F1. There are many things in place today to restrict F1 speeds.
Allow some of the things that were banned and some new things like intelligent down force and bingo you'd have very fast cars.

Time to stop polluting?
 
Nostradamus

Nostradamus

Bionic Poster
speedysteve said:
There is Formula E today.
Run on street circuits it's all a bit boring.
Put them on the current F1 circuits with enough battery to do a GP could work. The latter may be a problem today, but not in 2-5 years perhaps.

No reason why electric could not be as fast as current F1. There are many things in place today to restrict F1 speeds.
Allow some of the things that were banned and some new things like intelligent down force and bingo you'd have very fast cars.

Time to stop polluting?
Click to expand...
oh yea,,, I forgot. Re-charging might be a issue...lol. it might take too long to recharge the battery. you may have to wait up to an hour for re-charging during races.............LOL. that may not work
 
speedysteve

speedysteve

Legend
Nostradamus said:
oh yea,,, I forgot. Re-charging might be a issue...lol. it might take too long to recharge the battery. you may have to wait up to an hour for re-charging during races.............LOL. that may not work
Click to expand...
The formula E's just come into the pits and jump into a new car.
Much of the strategy is power management. Bit boring, race is about racing..
I don't think recharging in the pits at high speed with happen any time soon as the amount of energy you need to dump into the battery is massive. Danger danger..
Unless the latest I heard about, instant charge capacitors come good..
Big enough batteries to do a whole race, perhaps more likely.
 
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G.O.A.T.
Have Mercedes lost their edge for good this season? Ferrari already looked very strong in FP1 and Red Bull continue to look very competitive.
 
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