groundstroke issue: spin vs. pace

[johnmccabe]

I feel my groundstrokes especially forehand generate too much spin not enough pace when I hit harder. I'm guessing my swing path may be too vertical and contact too late.

Here I'm trying to keep power below 60-70% and swing more horizontal and push contact point to further in the front. What do you think of my swing path?

or maybe it's not my strokes. in matches, it has more to do with not able to move quick enough to the right spot and let the ball drop too low?

 

[nunos]

cant see where your balls land from this perspective - you hit quite a lot forehands above shoulder level, maybe these shots create the feeling of lacking power?

 

[zaph]

The problem with trying to get you advice is pace is a bit of a mystery in tennis. The best analogy is punching power in boxing, you can have a boxer with excellent technique that has a weak punch, yet another boxer with similar or even inferior technique who has real knockout power. The low powered boxer would never be able to match the power of the other boxer, whatever they did.

Maybe it is the ratio of slow to fast twitch muscles, having a fast arm, I don't know. However if you haven't got it, I am not sure you can train yourself to generate pace. It seems to be a bit of an innate talent.

 

[johnmccabe]

The problem with trying to get you advice is pace is a bit of a mystery in tennis. The best analogy is punching power in boxing, you can have a boxer with excellent technique that has a weak punch, yet another boxer with similar or even inferior technique who has real knockout power. The low powered boxer would never be able to match the power of the other boxer, whatever they did.

Maybe it is the ratio of slow to fast twitch muscles, having a fast arm, I don't know. However if you haven't got it, I am not sure you can train yourself to generate pace. It seems to be a bit of an innate talent.

I think my groundstrokes have some potential to be explored. My serve used to be also very spinny and slow. After fixing swing path, my first serve is probably 20 mph faster than it used to be.

 

[LeeD]

Fast enough to bother your opponents, slow enough for you to control and replicate for 2 hours.

 

[johnmccabe]

cant see where your balls land from this perspective - you hit quite a lot forehands above shoulder level, maybe these shots create the feeling of lacking power?

I learned some basic footwork pattern, but I can't move well enough to hit every ball between shoulder and knee height. Also learning to hit high forehand. They are kinda satisfying. When I hit above shoulder, it always seems a bit late.

 

[eah123]

I know you are just hitting against the wall, so we don't know what your strokes look like when playing on a court. Just based on your video though, it looks like you have fairly flat strokes. I actually think they could use more spin and a higher trajectory (more "shape").

 

[johnmccabe]

I know you are just hitting against the wall, so we don't know what your strokes look like when playing on a court. Just based on your video though, it looks like you have fairly flat strokes. I actually think they could use more spin and a higher trajectory (more "shape").

Second half of the video is rally. But still flatter than my normal strokes, that's what I was trying to do.

 

[johnmccabe]

I know you are just hitting against the wall, so we don't know what your strokes look like when playing on a court. Just based on your video though, it looks like you have fairly flat strokes. I actually think they could use more spin and a higher trajectory (more "shape").

Here's one with a lot of loopy slow forehand.

 

[ubercat]

Why do you care. Your loopy FHs are not slow and are forcing the opp to scramble. Add some short angle shots TS and slice and you ll win a lot of matches

 

[johnmccabe]

Why do you care. Your loopy FHs are not slow and are forcing the opp to scramble. Add some short angle shots TS and slice and you ll win a lot of matches

The girl is 3 levels above me. She was just trying to hit any ball back to me to keep the rally going and get some exercise. She was helping me practice return of serve and told me which way she was serving to... I just want to learn how to switch between pace and spin. My loopy balls got crushed by some 4.0-4.5 players like lettuce.

 

[johnmccabe]

Fast enough to bother your opponents, slow enough for you to control and replicate for 2 hours.

I'm not capable of making this kind of adjustments freely, because I have trouble driving through the ball consistently.

 

[ubercat]

It might be the warm up hero effect. Where you swing freely in practice but choke up in matches. Those shots are landing too deep to get crushed.

What I did see is balls into net.

Why don't you try mixing it up. When opp is scrambling and you get a shoulder high ball hit more horizontal swing path all forward less vertical and let gravity do its thing.

 

[mhff34]

Less wrist, more shoulder. Swing through to the target and don't close the racket down too quick.

 

[johnmccabe]

What I did see is balls into net.

I hate it when I take a big swing, cut the ball too thin and zip it into the net. I think it's because of not driving through the shot enough, but not sure how much of it is about stroke vs movement.

 

[BetaServe]

Here's an experiment to try on your own: From the baseline, try hitting a forehand and send the ball straight to the fence on the other side of the court and make sure the trajectory of the ball as straight/flat as possible (so no loopy/spinny trajectory). That's the flatest shot that you can hit. Your body will try to figure out how to hit such shot and you'll realize how to hit a flatter shot thanks to that experiment. From there you can adjust the topspin and flat ratio % to your liking.

 

[ChimpChimp]

Too much spin not enough pace, that's me, even more so when I step in and want to hit a winner, because I'm so afraid of flying the ball out. That is what you said 'I hate it when I take a big swing, cut the ball too thin and zip it into the net'. I know my racquet face is way too close. I'm adjusting it to more open. It's not about not driving through the shot enough. I'm also moving the contact point lower. My contact point was often above shoulder, making all strokes weak. I tell myself to hit the ball a bit below waist (semi-Western). In reality the contact point is not as low as I imagine, which is a good thing. With a lower contact point I'm not so afraid of flying the ball, so I naturally open the racquet face. Ball trajectory is more loopy, which is my favourite. Yes balls have less spin but more loopy, because my previous strokes cut to the ball too thin.

 

[eah123]

I don’t see any problem with the pace on your topspin strokes. What I see is inconsistent contact. The balls that are short or in the net are due to contacting too high on the balls. You also often open the racquet face too much in high balls which results in your balls not having enough spin and going long.

 

[nyta2]

The girl is 3 levels above me. She was just trying to hit any ball back to me to keep the rally going and get some exercise. She was helping me practice return of serve and told me which way she was serving to... I just want to learn how to switch between pace and spin. My loopy balls got crushed by some 4.0-4.5 players like lettuce.

loopy with depth is a fantastic shot...
while it's useful to have variety (loopy vs. flat), especially if an opponent prefers one or the other...
it's a million times more important to focus on the depth control regardless of shape of shot.

 

[johnmccabe]

loopy with depth is a fantastic shot...
while it's useful to have variety (loopy vs. flat), especially if an opponent prefers one or the other...
it's a million times more important to focus on the depth control regardless of shape of shot.

YES!!! I do not know anything about how to control depth as you can clearly see in the rally video. Is it just learned by hitting a million balls or there are things that can be purposefully trained? Can you elaborate....

 

[johnmccabe]

I don’t see any problem with the pace on your topspin strokes. What I see is inconsistent contact. The balls that are short or in the net are due to contacting too high on the balls. You also often open the racquet face too much in high balls which results in your balls not having enough spin and going long.

oh...I see... I was not always hitting the right part of the ball.
My forehand grip is between eastern and semi-western. does that have anything to do with my problem with high balls?

 

[nyta2]

YES!!! I do not know anything about how to control depth as you can clearly see in the rally video. Is it just learned by hitting a million balls or there are things that can be purposefully trained? Can you elaborate....

easiest way to get depth is just to hit higher. just hitting harder is a recipe for unforced errors (not wrong, but requires more reps to get that consistency).
yeah, million+ balls, but make sure you have specific targets in mind
* hit deep cone:

* hit over rope:

* "triangle of death" game:

* create a deep section (~5ft from baseline), and can only score points in the deep section: can't find a vid easily... but this gets confusing for some folks that don't like to think because you have to track your opponents points, but it's also my favorite continuity drill.
etc..

 

[eah123]

oh...I see... I was not always hitting the right part of the ball.
My forehand grip is between eastern and semi-western. does that have anything to do with my problem with high balls?

If you have a loose enough wrist, you can keep the racquet face closed even on high balls with an eastern FH grip. The other option is to change your grip to semi western just for high balls.

 

[ngoster]

I slowed down your second video to 0.25 speed. You have a nice swing, your contact point just needs more consistency. You're good with short balls where you can close your stance a little, but medium to deep balls where you have to maintain a more open stance give you more trouble. You're either over reaching or getting jammed, both of which, will rob you of power. I think improving your footwork will help you with your power issues. Watch how your hitting partner moves. Her split step and timing are really good. See how she's able to get nice full strokes.

 

[Enga]

I don’t see any problem with the pace on your topspin strokes. What I see is inconsistent contact. The balls that are short or in the net are due to contacting too high on the balls. You also often open the racquet face too much in high balls which results in your balls not having enough spin and going long.

My thoughts are similar to this

It's all about racket speed right?

But I feel you were holding back sometimes so that you could control it.

 

[Hit 'em clean]

Hitting against the wall and hitting with on the court against someone you have two very different swings... which is understandable. The one the thing I would really caution against is in the wall hitting video you are often way too far forward at contact (over your front foot) in an attempt to hit hard and flat. I think your effort to create power is simply a case of over swinging and you are robbing yourself of power by making contact too far out in front. A shot like that might be okay at mid-court for a put away, but you want to be balanced when hitting the ball. Yes you want to move forward through the hit and make contact out front, but you shouldn't be out over your front foot. At contact you want your upper body to be between your feet and fairly upright... not leaning forward out over your foot like you are doing.

Power setups start from setting and loading the back foot while staying in balance. Unleash that power forward and around, but stay balanced. You are basically falling forward on each shot. That makes it very difficult to get the ball over the net... or to hit with power and spin... because your racquet face want to close down. If you watch your wall hitting videos you'll see that your racquet face almost immediately flips down to face the ground during and just after contact. You can drive forward on a shot, but you should be able to still just land on your left foot and be almost in the ready position and balanced to hit the next shot. You take another full step after the ball just keep from falling over, which also robs you over recovery time when the ball comes back at you.

On your hitting session with the young lady you hit with more spin, but I can tell you're not falling forward. You are more vertical with your swing path and much more in balance. Still you tend to lose racquet face control/awareness on the backswing when you're trying to hit hard. I think you'd be better off focusing on better contact and staying hyper aware of your racquet face in the backswing so you don't lose control. Power is not created in the back swing and on hits where you miss badly... I see you being overly aggressive in the back swing causing you to lose control. Power is created in the acceleration of the forward swing... none of that happens because your backswing is faster or more aggressive. Prepare earlier and relax even more on the backswing for big shots... focus on good contact and accelerating forward from the drop (bottom of the backswing, not the top). Stay balanced and relaxed and I think you'll find you'll hit harder, with less effort, and more consistency.

 

[johnmccabe]

I slowed down your second video to 0.25 speed. You have a nice swing, your contact point just needs more consistency. You're good with short balls where you can close your stance a little, but medium to deep balls where you have to maintain a more open stance give you more trouble. You're either over reaching or getting jammed, both of which, will rob you of power. I think improving your footwork will help you with your power issues. Watch how your hitting partner moves. Her split step and timing are really good. See how she's able to get nice full strokes.

spacing is definitely part of my problem with live balls. My split step is still late. Been trying for weeks to correct. Bad habits are so easy to develop and hard to fix.

 

[johnmccabe]

Hitting against the wall and hitting with on the court against someone you have two very different swings... which is understandable. The one the thing I would really caution against is in the wall hitting video you are often way too far forward at contact (over your front foot) in an attempt to hit hard and flat. I think your effort to create power is simply a case of over swinging and you are robbing yourself of power by making contact too far out in front. A shot like that might be okay at mid-court for a put away, but you want to be balanced when hitting the ball. Yes you want to move forward through the hit and make contact out front, but you shouldn't be out over your front foot. At contact you want your upper body to be between your feet and fairly upright... not leaning forward out over your foot like you are doing.

Power setups start from setting and loading the back foot while staying in balance. Unleash that power forward and around, but stay balanced. You are basically falling forward on each shot. That makes it very difficult to get the ball over the net... or to hit with power and spin... because your racquet face want to close down. If you watch your wall hitting videos you'll see that your racquet face almost immediately flips down to face the ground during and just after contact. You can drive forward on a shot, but you should be able to still just land on your left foot and be almost in the ready position and balanced to hit the next shot. You take another full step after the ball just keep from falling over, which also robs you over recovery time when the ball comes back at you.

On your hitting session with the young lady you hit with more spin, but I can tell you're not falling forward. You are more vertical with your swing path and much more in balance. Still you tend to lose racquet face control/awareness on the backswing when you're trying to hit hard. I think you'd be better off focusing on better contact and staying hyper aware of your racquet face in the backswing so you don't lose control. Power is not created in the back swing and on hits where you miss badly... I see you being overly aggressive in the back swing causing you to lose control. Power is created in the acceleration of the forward swing... none of that happens because your backswing is faster or more aggressive. Prepare earlier and relax even more on the backswing for big shots... focus on good contact and accelerating forward from the drop (bottom of the backswing, not the top). Stay balanced and relaxed and I think you'll find you'll hit harder, with less effort, and more consistency.

a lot of good points here. Thanks! so I'll have to hit in the front without leaning upper body forward too much. That wall session does look like put away approach shot.

I was wondering about my backswing being too big for my current ability to time the shot. Also I don't know how the racquet face should behave in the backswing.

 

[Steady Eddy]

My opinion is that consistent depth is more important than either spin or pace. If you can just figure the trajectory so that you can block it deep over and over, you'll give many opponents trouble.

Eventually, though, you'll have to finish off points. How's your net game? And can you put away short balls? I suspect that by hitting forehands over and over you're practicing what you're already good at. To improve as a player you need to be able to volley, smash, and hit angles on short balls.

 

[johnmccabe]

My opinion is that consistent depth is more important than either spin or pace. If you can just figure the trajectory so that you can block it deep over and over, you'll give many opponents trouble.

Eventually, though, you'll have to finish off points. How's your net game? And can you put away short balls? I suspect that by hitting forehands over and over you're practicing what you're already good at. To improve as a player you need to be able to volley, smash, and hit angles on short balls.

I play mostly doubles and my net game is much better than my baseline at the moment. that's why I'm working on improving groundstrokes. ideally I want to fix technical deficiencies first and then start to focus on placement in a year or two.

 

[Steady Eddy]

I play mostly doubles and my net game is much better than my baseline at the moment. that's why I'm working on improving groundstrokes. ideally I want to fix technical deficiencies first and then start to focus on placement in a year or two.

Oh, okay. The doubles groundstroke is different from the singles one. In singles you want it to clear the net by a couple of feet so that you'll get depth. That kind of shot can get you in trouble in doubles because it's so easy to volley. For doubles you want it to trickle over the net so they volley it from a low position. And, of course, a good lob invaluable in dubs.

 

[Hit 'em clean]

a lot of good points here. Thanks! I was wondering about my backswing being too big for my current ability to time the shot. Also I don't know how the racquet face should behave in the backswing.

the size of it is fine as long as you have time, but a bigger backswing or faster or one with more effort... doesn't translate into a bigger ball. It's a common mistake that when people try to hit big you can see the 'effort' in their back swing and it usually means force or tension. Speed is about less tension. Also, tension means less feel so you can't feel where the racquet is or the face. Less tension allows you to feel the drop of the racquet head so you can better time using that energy into accelerating the racquet forward at the right time.

As far as your racquet face goes you tend to open it too early in the forward swing. Watch some videos of Djokovic hitting forehand and you'll see how his racquet is closed (facing towards the ground) and then naturally opens up as he swing up and forward through the ball. Having your racquet travel toward your intended target longer will also help you in extending your follow through so more energy goes into the ball then glancing across it.

 

[Hit 'em clean]

 

[AlexSV]

The person to ask is the girl you were hitting with. She would know whether your forehand was too loopy or had too much spin. She probably would have a solid pointer or two for you based on what she's seeing.

 

[giantschwinn]

There is a sweet spot for pace and spin. About 6 months ago, I was rallying with my son and I noticed that though his groundies had good pace, they sit at the perfect waist high for the opponent to attack. You see this all the time with juniors... Those with nice looking strokes and can drive the ball, you wonder why their utrs are so low. They look good in the practice rally but in a match setting, they get attacked because their balls lack the quality to push the opponent back.