internally rotate upper arm in volley ready position

[chetrbox]

I've found videos from Coach Ryan of 2MinuteTennis pretty useful in the past (especially the doubles strategy tips), but I can't make sense of this one.

In the first couple of minutes of the video, he suggests "raising the elbows out" in the volley ready position quite a bit. If i try to do this with both hands on the racquet, i can sense the internal rotation of both my upper arms in the ready position. Going from this position to a slightly externally rotated position on the forehand volley takeback takes longer than if I just started with neutral upper arm in ready position. It just doesn't feel efficient. I've also watched some videos of pros, and they don't start with internally rotated upper arms either. Since this guy generally seems to know what he's talking about, what am I missing?

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I've found videos from Coach Ryan of 2MinuteTennis pretty useful in the past (especially the doubles strategy tips), but I can't make sense of this one.

In the first couple of minutes of the video, he suggests "raising the elbows out" in the volley ready position quite a bit. If i try to do this with both hands on the racquet, i can sense the internal rotation of both my upper arms in the ready position. Going from this position to a slightly externally rotated position on the forehand volley takeback takes longer than if I just started with neutral upper arm in ready position. It just doesn't feel efficient. I've also watched some videos of pros, and they don't start with internally rotated upper arms either. Since this guy generally seems to know what he's talking about, what am I missing?

I haven't watched the video yet but I will.

My first question: how does his advice square with other instruction [either in-person or online]? With your observations of high-level volleyers?

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I've found videos from Coach Ryan of 2MinuteTennis pretty useful in the past (especially the doubles strategy tips), but I can't make sense of this one.

In the first couple of minutes of the video, he suggests "raising the elbows out" in the volley ready position quite a bit. If i try to do this with both hands on the racquet, i can sense the internal rotation of both my upper arms in the ready position. Going from this position to a slightly externally rotated position on the forehand volley takeback takes longer than if I just started with neutral upper arm in ready position. It just doesn't feel efficient. I've also watched some videos of pros, and they don't start with internally rotated upper arms either. Since this guy generally seems to know what he's talking about, what am I missing?

I think he could have phrased it better. Initially, he talked about the flaw of "keep your elbows in front of your body". To me, that merely speaks to where the elbow is relative to the body. It says nothing about the rotation of the elbow, which is what he was really getting at.

The 2nd thing: he claims that having the elbows out in front of the body leads to a takeback position of the racquet being laid back so that the face tends to be pointing upwards vs the "wall" formation when the elbows are rotated. I disagree. I tried the elbows out in front position and I still get into the wall position. I think having the elbows rotated allows me to take the racquet back more quickly than if the elbows were out in front, not that the elbows in front automatically leads to the racquet being laid back too far.

Now, perhaps I simply know what my final position should be [wall vs open face] and I can work forward from any initial position to get there. Perhaps a lower-level volleyer would not know this and that's why the rotated elbow is a good idea. I've seen similar tips to the "tennis ball under the armpit" but I've never explicitly worked on this.

 

[chetrbox]

I think having the elbows rotated allows me to take the racquet back more quickly than if the elbows were out in front, not that the elbows in front automatically leads to the racquet being laid back too far.

Now, perhaps I simply know what my final position should be [wall vs open face] and I can work forward from any initial position to get there.

I think this is it. I just tried his tip again, but instead of raising the elbows out so far that you can't hold a tennis ball in the armpit, I raised them about a third as much. And I can definitely sense that this saves some time because the elbow is closer to its final position. I'm going to try it out on the court today. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I think this is it. I just tried his tip again, but instead of raising the elbows out so far that you can't hold a tennis ball in the armpit, I raised them about a third as much. And I can definitely sense that this saves some time because the elbow is closer to its final position. I'm going to try it out on the court today. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Do you bias your racquet towards one side or the other or are you neutral?

I bias towards the BH because the BH is easier to hit when the incomings are close to the body. I don't see a lot of discussion on this and I naturally came to the conclusion through experiment, not dogma.

 

[chetrbox]

Do you bias your racquet towards one side or the other or are you neutral?

I bias towards the BH because the BH is easier to hit when the incomings are close to the body. I don't see a lot of discussion on this and I naturally came to the conclusion through experiment, not dogma.

I use a neutral ready position with my racquet tip pointing at the person i'm watching. I've recently noticed that for balls aimed at my right shin/knee i'm using a weird forehand 'carve' volley. It seems to work for me, but I don't see anyone else using that. So I plan to practice and switch to a BH bias when I next hit against a ball machine. I hope this will eliminate my instinct to hit the 'carve' volley(which I've never practiced, it just happens).

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I use a neutral ready position with my racquet tip pointing at the person i'm watching. I've recently noticed that for balls aimed at my right shin/knee i'm using a weird forehand 'carve' volley. It seems to work for me, but I don't see anyone else using that. So I plan to practice and switch to a BH bias when I next hit against a ball machine. I hope this will eliminate my instinct to hit the 'carve' volley(which I've never practiced, it just happens).

The further on my FH side I hit a BH volley, the more I carve. I think it's just natural.

How did the "elbows rotated" thing work out?

 

[chetrbox]

The further on my FH side I hit a BH volley, the more I carve. I think it's just natural.

How did the "elbows rotated" thing work out?

It felt remarkably better. I didn't even have to practice it much unlike most other changes in tennis technique. By the end of the first hour it felt unnatural to not push the elbows out a bit. Can't speak to the quality of the output though. My doubles opponents today were significantly better than usual, so I'll have to wait a few more days before I know for sure if it's helping me at the net or not.

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

It felt remarkably better. I didn't even have to practice it much unlike most other changes in tennis technique. By the end of the first hour it felt unnatural to not push the elbows out a bit. Can't speak to the quality of the output though. My doubles opponents today were significantly better than usual, so I'll have to wait a few more days before I know for sure if it's helping me at the net or not.

The quality of your opponents will vary but if it felt remarkably better, that's a good sign.

 

[user92626]

I think he could have phrased it better. Initially, he talked about the flaw of "keep your elbows in front of your body". To me, that merely speaks to where the elbow is relative to the body. It says nothing about the rotation of the elbow, which is what he was really getting at.

The 2nd thing: he claims that having the elbows out in front of the body leads to a takeback position of the racquet being laid back so that the face tends to be pointing upwards vs the "wall" formation when the elbows are rotated. I disagree. I tried the elbows out in front position and I still get into the wall position. I think having the elbows rotated allows me to take the racquet back more quickly than if the elbows were out in front, not that the elbows in front automatically leads to the racquet being laid back too far.

Now, perhaps I simply know what my final position should be [wall vs open face] and I can work forward from any initial position to get there. Perhaps a lower-level volleyer would not know this and that's why the rotated elbow is a good idea. I've seen similar tips to the "tennis ball under the armpit" but I've never explicitly worked on this.

What is the rotation of the elbow? And what's "the elbows were out in front"?

Is it Elbow raised away from the body?

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

What is the rotation of the elbow? And what's "the elbows were out in front"?

Is it Elbow raised away from the body?

I think the video explains it better than I will. Also, ask @chetrbox because he actually tried to do what I suggested vs me who has been doing it so long that I probably don't remember ever doing it another way.

 

[chetrbox]

What is the rotation of the elbow? And what's "the elbows were out in front"?

Is it Elbow raised away from the body?

The first tip in the video is to "raise the elbows out" until you can't hold a tennis ball under either armpit. If you try to do this while holding the racquet out in front with both hands, you'll find your upper arms internally rotating at the shoulder. Some might refer to this internal rotation of upper arm as "rotation of the elbow".
I interpreted "elbows out in front" as moving the elbows forward with the elbows still pointing down at the ground (as opposed to pointing more towards the doubles alleys)

And yes, the elbow needs to be raised away from the body a bit. I was leaving them too close to the body (in the axis parallel to the chest/net) before I started incorporating this tip.

 

[user92626]

The first tip in the video is to "raise the elbows out" until you can't hold a tennis ball under either armpit. If you try to do this while holding the racquet out in front with both hands, you'll find your upper arms internally rotating at the shoulder. Some might refer to this internal rotation of upper arm as "rotation of the elbow".
I interpreted "elbows out in front" as moving the elbows forward with the elbows still pointing down at the ground (as opposed to pointing more towards the doubles alleys)

And yes, the elbow needs to be raised away from the body a bit. I was leaving them too close to the body (in the axis parallel to the chest/net) before I started incorporating this tip.

Thanks, man

I have spent so many hours watching Federer volley clips and developed what I have today. This "elbow up, away from body" thing is different from what Federer demonstrates. I'm a little confused.

 

[5263]

I've found videos from Coach Ryan of 2MinuteTennis pretty useful in the past (especially the doubles strategy tips), but I can't make sense of this one.

Since this guy generally seems to know what he's talking about, what am I missing?

Imo his topics are much better than his tips. This one like others misses the mark.

 

[BallChaser]

I have spent so many hours watching Federer volley clips and developed what I have today. This "elbow up, away from body" thing is different from what Federer demonstrates. I'm a little confused.

Good for you having developed your Federer volley. I don't think the video in op is any different from Federer, as "Elbow up" is usually subtle. The point of "Elbow up, away from body" is to prepare your shoulder for the next step -- to rotate externally accompanied by your elbow moving front. With the following side-view video, we can see clearly Federer's pronounced elbow-front move and his sleeve gets wrinkled each time. Without initial internal rotation and recoiling, you can't do this much external rotation.

 

[user92626]

Good for you having developed your Federer volley. I don't think the video in op is any different from Federer, as "Elbow up" is usually subtle. The point of "Elbow up, away from body" is to prepare your shoulder for the next step -- to rotate externally accompanied by your elbow moving front. With the following side-view video, we can see clearly Federer's pronounced elbow-front move and his sleeve gets wrinkled each time. Without initial internal rotation and recoiling, you can't do this much external rotation.

I'm merely using Fed as my textbook to head into. Far from achieving it. Point is I need clarification and do not wanna head into a different direction.

I observe that when the elbow is closer to the body, the hand is laid back or winded back somewhat as if it's already on its way to volley.

When the elbow is away/raised, the racket is more in neutral / ready position, ie NOT started the takeback any millimetre. Is that slower than the other case?


Elbow in, the FH volley already started.

Elbow farther away from body, racket face is closed. FH volley hasn't started. If it's to start, it's behind the position that already starts, no?

 

[S&V-not_dead_yet]

I'm merely using Fed as my textbook to head into. Far from achieving it. Point is I need clarification and do not wanna head into a different direction.

My takeaway from the original video was that he thought the elbows out in front naturally led to a racquet laid back too far with the face too open which then leads to a lot of arm and wrist action as opposed to "the wall" he mentioned. If you don't have that problem, the video might not be useful. Federer certainly doesn't have that problem so his [and other very good volleyers] technique probably emphasizes different things.

 

[Friedman Whip]

IMNSHO anyone who tries to tell me anything about volleying without explaining what grip should be used (and what grip he is using ) is just wasting my time.

 

[BallChaser]

I observe that when the elbow is closer to the body, the hand is laid back or winded back somewhat as if it's already on its way to volley.

When the elbow is away/raised, the racket is more in neutral / ready position, ie NOT started the takeback any millimetre. Is that slower than the other case?

Elbow in, the FH volley already started.

Elbow farther away from body, racket face is closed. FH volley hasn't started. If it's to start, it's behind the position that already starts, no?

You are correct that if elbow is close to the body, it is already on its way to volley. However, in this case, the space the racket face can cover and the pace you can generate are both limited, because shoulder movement is already exhausted. You have to adjust the location of the racket and generate pace by elbow and wrist only. As far as your opponent is providing the pace and the incoming ball is coming to an easy position (right next to you between chest and head height), waiting with elbow close to the body works better than waiting with elbow out. All other cases, waiting with elbow out works better because you can use shoulder movement for reaching to the ball and generating pace.