My Arm’s Killin’ Me Smalls

[srvnvly]

I strayed from my Selkirk Mach 6 (Amped v2), to a Ronbus R3.16 and the Vatic Pro V7 16mm, and my arm is KILLING me. It’s like going back in time when I dropped my string tension, changed to a multi in Technifibre X-1 Biphase for my the Babolat Aero Pro Drive tennis racquet. Im going back to the Selkirk, as I’ve been icing/stretching/using a racquetball ball to massage the muscles in my forearm/ ibuprofen for inflammation. Is this the effect of raw carbon fiber, thermo-formed paddles? Is it me? Probably both, but d@mn.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Sorry to hear about elbow … been there

Hope it’s not the Vatic Pro V7 and thermoforming … just got mine. I’ve actually wondered about it once I heard how they were building the thermoformed paddles. I don’t think it’s the carbon because I have been playing the xspak with no issues … and my elbow isn’t 100% after bad TE once from tennis.

Once I was past TE … elbow was pretty good at warning me with tennis strings that were too stiff. I played once (yesterday) with V7 and no initial elbow twinges. I am scheduled to play 3 times this week … will update here with any issues.

Do you know about the Theraband Flexbar … I think it with forearm massage was key to recovery. I didn’t use ice for TE. I still massage sometimes before play … but got out of habit of using flexbar.

Flexbar … fyi …

 

[srvnvly]

Sorry to hear about elbow … been there

Hope it’s not the Vatic Pro V7 and thermoforming … just got mine. I’ve actually wondered about it once I heard how they were building the thermoformed paddles. I don’t think it’s the carbon because I have been playing the xspak with no issues … and my elbow isn’t 100% after bad TE once from tennis.

Once I was past TE … elbow was pretty good at warning me with tennis strings that were too stiff. I played once (yesterday) with V7 and no initial elbow twinges. I am scheduled to play 3 times this week … will update here with any issues.

Do you know about the Theraband Flexbar … I think it with forearm massage was key to recovery. I didn’t use ice for TE. I still massage sometimes before play … but got out of habit of using flexbar.

Flexbar … fyi …

Thank you for the information, I’m going to try the Flexbar, as well as continue with my other exercises.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Thank you for the information, I’m going to try the Flexbar, as well as continue with my other exercises.

fyi … I bought the green one … probably work for most guys. My wife can use green one … but a little much. I let a neighbor try it and she is ordering red one.

 

[tennytive]

Until now I've never heard of Pickleball Elbow. How does that happen with a 7 to 9 oz paddle?? Weighs less than a beer.
Are you gripping too tight? Do you play all day every day? Are you trying to kill the ball with every serve or return? It's not how hard you hit, it's where.

I had tennis elbow for 24 months. Had to play lefty and just about everything else as well. Dead poly strings and gripping too tight did me in.
No issue with paddles. Maybe try a heavier weight and let the paddle do the work, not your arm. Take it easy for a while and also when you start playing again.

Have the green flexbar. It helped.

 

[srvnvly]

Until now I've never heard of Pickleball Elbow. How does that happen with a 7 to 9 oz paddle?? Weighs less than a beer.
Are you gripping too tight? Do you play all day every day? Are you trying to kill the ball with every serve or return? It's not how hard you hit, it's where.

I had tennis elbow for 24 months. Had to play lefty and just about everything else as well. Dead poly strings and gripping too tight did me in.
No issue with paddles. Maybe try a heavier weight and let the paddle do the work, not your arm. Take it easy for a while and also when you start playing again.

Have the green flexbar. It helped.

I don’t try to kill every ball, but as the plow through on the Vatic V7 wasn’t as good as my Selkirk Mach 6, I was swinging harder, and also added lead tape to try and make up what I was missing from my go-to paddle (the Selkirk). The handle also seemed thinner and I did play more than normal recently, more than I usually do in a given week, so all of this might have contributed to the elbow soreness. I haven’t had pain like this in about 20 years or so. I ordered the red Flexbar and will see that works with my other stretching and icing.

 

[ByeByePoly]

Until now I've never heard of Pickleball Elbow. How does that happen with a 7 to 9 oz paddle?? Weighs less than a beer.
Are you gripping too tight? Do you play all day every day? Are you trying to kill the ball with every serve or return? It's not how hard you hit, it's where.

I had tennis elbow for 24 months. Had to play lefty and just about everything else as well. Dead poly strings and gripping too tight did me in.
No issue with paddles. Maybe try a heavier weight and let the paddle do the work, not your arm. Take it easy for a while and also when you start playing again.

Have the green flexbar. It helped.

To me …. my guess on chances of pb elbow would have had more to do with weight of wiffle (26g) than any paddle weight. I think most tennis elbow from tennis comes from losing the battle (forearm vs contact) too many times. Stiffer string like poly increases the chances of losing the battle. Your figure the points of absorption of tennis ball contact are strings, racquets, muscles/tendons. We all have different muscle/tendon capacity … we no doubt degrades with age … so go to stiff with racquet and strings … tendon loses. You could put all of that in the context of “perfect technique” … and you can still reach limits because of number of reps. Pro tennis players getting TE.

Anecdotally … in my short time in pickleball … already seen three with TE, all ladies. Ironically add a 4th … wife just now having some elbow twinge. We typically play 3 times a week … Mon, Wed, Fri … giving ourself a day in between. I had some elbow twinges a couple of weeks ago … and forearm massage before playing made it go away. That is what I had wife do today … massage forearm with roller bar before we left the house. We played for a couple of hours … good so far. I am convinced many of us that had TE in the past might have avoided it if we always massaged forearm before play. I had no idea there were knots in there … until I self-massaged with fingers.

I have one guess where pb TE is mainly coming from … that ping pong backhand punch at the kitchen. That is constants reps where you never have the equivalent of the momentum of the tennis racquet winning the collision. We are pretty much bh arming constantly in firefights … the only reason probably don’t all have pb TE is the wiffle.

TE sucks … I sometimes think about hitting my 2hbh ros instead of 1hbh ros even if I gain no advantage from it. It’s one less 1hbh rep. That said Vatic Pro V7 1hbh woke up today. I have been hitting it with good control and accuracy with xspak … but now add good pace.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I don’t try to kill every ball, but as the plow through on the Vatic V7 wasn’t as good as my Selkirk Mach 6, I was swinging harder, and also added lead tape to try and make up what I was missing from my go-to paddle (the Selkirk). The handle also seemed thinner and I did play more than normal recently, more than I usually do in a given week, so all of this might have contributed to the elbow soreness. I haven’t had pain like this in about 20 years or so. I ordered the red Flexbar and will see that works with my other stretching and icing.

I think in tennis … we could all match our swing speed with string choice and tension. The way I judged where I wanted to be in tennis is I wanted to be able to hit my fh 75% max swing flat dtl and still keep it in. Obviously a guess on what % you are actually swinging … but this got me in the ball park of matching the way I played tennis (swing50-75% from baseline … low ue … control over power).

Well … in pball the equivalent of your racquet, string and stringing tension is basically chosen when you buy a paddle. You can tweak it with lead tape … but that doesn’t get close to just changing your tennis racquet string tension. And … if you are mainly playing doubles like most of us do … the kitchen “speed” matters 90%+ more than any baseline pace. I know … I am still losing to players good at kitchen with no groundstrokes. Have you ever seen so many players able to hide their backhands … a very rare sighting.

Hope the red flexbar works for you. fyi … after playing with V7 twice, I don’t see needing to add lead tape … very happy with control and pop. Two layers of tournagrip and orange electrical tape took the 8.2 oz to 8.6 oz … obviously weighted toward handle. It feels lighter in the hand than the 8.4 oz xspak (8.0 + .4 oz lead on sides).

I just ordered 16mm Vatic Flash for wife … what can I say … she liked my new paddle today.

 

[Jerry Seinfeld]

I strayed from my Selkirk Mach 6 (Amped v2), to a Ronbus R3.16 and the Vatic Pro V7 16mm, and my arm is KILLING me. It’s like going back in time when I dropped my string tension, changed to a multi in Technifibre X-1 Biphase for my the Babolat Aero Pro Drive tennis racquet. Im going back to the Selkirk, as I’ve been icing/stretching/using a racquetball ball to massage the muscles in my forearm/ ibuprofen for inflammation. Is this the effect of raw carbon fiber, thermo-formed paddles? Is it me? Probably both, but d@mn.

R3 is soft and not thermoformed. Wouldn’t think it is contributing.

 

[ByeByePoly]

R3 is soft and not thermoformed. Wouldn’t think it is contributing.

loved your tv series … you should have married Elaine.

 

[Bud]

To me …. my guess on chances of pb elbow would have had more to do with weight of wiffle (26g) than any paddle weight. I think most tennis elbow from tennis comes from losing the battle (forearm vs contact) too many times. Stiffer string like poly increases the chances of losing the battle. Your figure the points of absorption of tennis ball contact are strings, racquets, muscles/tendons. We all have different muscle/tendon capacity … we no doubt degrades with age … so go to stiff with racquet and strings … tendon loses. You could put all of that in the context of “perfect technique” … and you can still reach limits because of number of reps. Pro tennis players getting TE.

Anecdotally … in my short time in pickleball … already seen three with TE, all ladies. Ironically add a 4th … wife just now having some elbow twinge. We typically play 3 times a week … Mon, Wed, Fri … giving ourself a day in between. I had some elbow twinges a couple of weeks ago … and forearm massage before playing made it go away. That is what I had wife do today … massage forearm with roller bar before we left the house. We played for a couple of hours … good so far. I am convinced many of us that had TE in the past might have avoided it if we always massaged forearm before play. I had no idea there were knots in there … until I self-massaged with fingers.

I have one guess where pb TE is mainly coming from … that ping pong backhand punch at the kitchen. That is constants reps where you never have the equivalent of the momentum of the tennis racquet winning the collision. We are pretty much bh arming constantly in firefights … the only reason probably don’t all have pb TE is the wiffle.

TE sucks … I sometimes think about hitting my 2hbh ros instead of 1hbh ros even if I gain no advantage from it. It’s one less 1hbh rep. That said Vatic Pro V7 1hbh woke up today. I have been hitting it with good control and accuracy with xspak … but now add good pace.

I'm finding ROS using straight slice or sidespin slice works much better vs a TS return - even using heavy TS. I get 3x as many errors from opponent's on their third shot. I make fewer errors returning with slice as well. I'm at about 95% successful returns with slice vs 90% using TS.

 

[Bud]

R3 is soft and not thermoformed. Wouldn’t think it is contributing.

The TF paddles are significantly stiffer and more powerful. IMO, more players will start experiencing elbow issues as they become more mainstream. It will be important to monitor any elbow twinges/stiffness and massage+stretch the muscles in the forearm, biceps and triceps.

I played for 4 hours/14 games last night with my OYA TF paddle and it was the first time I felt a little stiffness in my elbow after playing. I immediately massaged the back of my arm (tricep tendon) against my knee plus ibuprofen. Today, I feel no pain or stiffness.

Those 4 hours/14 games equated to nearly 12,000 steps on court for anyone interested in how much you move in a game at 4.5 level.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I'm finding ROS using straight slice or sidespin slice works much better vs a TS return - even using heavy TS. I get 3x as many errors from opponent's on their third shot. I make fewer errors returning with slice as well. I'm at about 95% successful returns with slice vs 90% using TS.

I hit many 1hbh slice return of serves (straight slice no sidespin) … not because of my ros UEs, but because of opponents 3rd shot errors trying to get slice over the net. Comical … even good intermediate rec players hit the ball into the net. I think it’s because they don’t see it much … I’m sure after a while they will adjust and just aim higher. But then … that’s also a good thing … if they assume I just hit the same slice again but I hit flatter now they might hit too high. Whatever … I’m sticking with it until it stops working. Same with topspin lobs from baseline … continues to disrupt.

I keep telling myself to try some forehand slice ros … some ugly forehand choppers.

 

[ByeByePoly]

The TF paddles are significantly stiffer and more powerful. IMO, more players will start experiencing elbow issues as they become more mainstream. It will be important to monitor any elbow twinges/stiffness and massage+stretch the muscles in the forearm, biceps and triceps.

I played for 4 hours/14 games last night with my OYA TF paddle and it was the first time I felt a little stiffness in my elbow after playing. I immediately massaged the back of my arm (tricep tendon) against my knee plus ibuprofen. Today, I feel no pain or stiffness.

Those 4 hours/14 games equated to nearly 12,000 steps on court for anyone interested in how much you move in a game at 4.5 level.

My Vatic Pro V7 didn’t cause any issues for my tennis degraded elbow (6 months of play, 3 times a week). I felt a twinge on occasion and massaged forearm before play and all has been well. But that’s using a thermoformed paddle with a pre-existing bad tennis TE degraded elbow.

 

[Bud]

I hit many 1hbh slice return of serves (straight slice no sidespin) … not because of my ros UEs, but because of opponents 3rd shot errors trying to get slice over the net. Comical … even good intermediate rec players hit the ball into the net. I think it’s because they don’t see it much … I’m sure after a while they will adjust and just aim higher. But then … that’s also a good thing … if they assume I just hit the same slice again but I hit flatter now they might hit too high. Whatever … I’m sticking with it until it stops working. Same with topspin lobs from baseline … continues to disrupt.

I keep telling myself to try some forehand slice ros … some ugly forehand choppers.

And when people do get it back it's usually high over the net. The next shot is a roll volley at the feet and then the smash.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

-after hitting the vatic.pro, ive also felt my hands hurting a bit the next day!
-it was a demo session, so i dont care too much about it, but funny to read about this issue with them
-i think i would change the base grip with something else tough, and/or add 2 overgrips!?

 

[ByeByePoly]

-after hitting the vatic.pro, ive also felt my hands hurting a bit the next day!
-it was a demo session, so i dont care too much about it, but funny to read about this issue with them
-i think i would change the base grip with something else tough, and/or add 2 overgrips!?

Coming from squarish grips I didn’t like (Prince Response Pro, XSPAK) I really like the Vatic Pro grips which feel more like a tennis racquet to me.

According Vatic website:

• Grip has 2 polyurethane inserts to reduce shock and help with tennis elbow

My guess is if you did make the grip bigger it might resolve it (maybe smaller grip leads to gripping too tight). Maybe replace the base grip with Wilson Shock grip, and overgrip over that.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

Coming from squarish grips I didn’t like (Prince Response Pro, XSPAK) I really like the Vatic Pro grips which feel more like a tennis racquet to me.

According Vatic website:

• Grip has 2 polyurethane inserts to reduce shock and help with tennis elbow

My guess is if you did make the grip bigger it might resolve it (maybe smaller grip leads to gripping too tight). Maybe replace the base grip with Wilson Shock grip, and overgrip over that.

-i just received kiwipickleball-slice paddle
-it came with a "grip kit" to reduce grip size
-i removed the original thick 2x pieces, and used the smaller 2x pieces, to change the grip size
-ill be reporting back soon as to the feel of the paddle

-but these 2x pieces from the kit and/or the original kit, were nothing ore than a thight cell foam (dark gray color)
-it would only affect 2x sides of the 4, in regards to dampening
-imo, it would only stop 50% of the vibration,
-the unibody construction is proving too much for pickleball companies
-only a few companies know how to do a proper handle

 

[ByeByePoly]

-i just received kiwipickleball-slice paddle
-it came with a "grip kit" to reduce grip size
-i removed the original thick 2x pieces, and used the smaller 2x pieces, to change the grip size
-ill be reporting back soon as to the feel of the paddle

-but these 2x pieces from the kit and/or the original kit, were nothing ore than a thight cell foam (dark gray color)
-it would only affect 2x sides of the 4, in regards to dampening
-imo, it would only stop 50% of the vibration,
-the unibody construction is proving too much for pickleball companies
-only a few companies know how to do a proper handle

Interesting there is a grip size change kit. I guess easy to increase grip size, not so easy reducing.

I wonder if we get vibrations from paddles and a 26g plastic ball like tennis racket and strings. Said another way … do pickleball players get PE from stresses from contact … or is it simply a repetitive stress injury from unique movements like that ping pong backhand at the net with no body rotation assist like tennis? Pickleball is the ultimate violator of “arming” that we rail against in tennis. I have hit paddles (XSPAK) so muted I barely felt contact.

Whatever the reason … PE is definitely a thing. I was talking to a good player that is starting to get signs of TE. I noticed he was hitting his kitchen backhand volley with a SW forehand grip. That would be an arm killer in tennis … but not sure with paddle. Strong guy … and very fast hands with 9 oz paddle.

Who knows … TE sucks and PE sucks. The vast majority of arm bands I see are the females. Maybe with pickleball it’s simply load from awkward repetitive movements exceeding capacity.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

Interesting there is a grip size change kit. I guess easy to increase grip size, not so easy reducing.

I wonder if we get vibrations from paddles and a 26g plastic ball like tennis racket and strings. Said another way … do pickleball players get PE from stresses from contact … or is it simply a repetitive stress injury from unique movements like that ping pong backhand at the net with no body rotation assist like tennis? Pickleball is the ultimate violator of “arming” that we rail against in tennis. I have hit paddles (XSPAK) so muted I barely felt contact.

Whatever the reason … PE is definitely a thing. I was talking to a good player that is starting to get signs of TE. I noticed he was hitting his kitchen backhand volley with a SW forehand grip. That would be an arm killer in tennis … but not sure with paddle. Strong guy … and very fast hands with 9 oz paddle.

Who knows … TE sucks and PE sucks. The vast majority of arm bands I see are the females. Maybe with pickleball it’s simply load from awkward repetitive movements exceeding capacity.

-its also the rapid tightening and loosening of the grip
-agree, poor form, fats flicks and/or repetitive movements could be contributing factors
-prokennex has a good grip on the market, with their pain relief paddles!; i just helped 1x lady recently, by switching her to one
-i mitigate any issues, by adding weight to the handle, and increasing grip size, to my normal/standard size

 

[I Dink Too Much]

My guess is if you did make the grip bigger it might resolve it (maybe smaller grip leads to gripping too tight). Maybe replace the base grip with Wilson Shock grip, and overgrip over that.

I have large hands and used to buy 4 5/8 grips for tennis ... and add a full size heat shrink sleeve to make my tennis grips 4 3/4.

Paddles all come stock with skinny grips. I build-up my paddle with TWO heat shrink sleeves, a regular grip AND an overgrip. My tennis elbow-y symptoms disappeared after about a month.

 

[1HBHfanatic]

I have large hands and used to buy 4 5/8 grips for tennis ... and add a full size heat shrink sleeve to make my tennis grips 4 3/4.

Paddles all come stock with skinny grips. I build-up my paddle with TWO heat shrink sleeves, a regular grip AND an overgrip. My tennis elbow-y symptoms disappeared after about a month.

-i just got the kiwi.slice paddles
-im a new ambassador for them actually
-well, the grip size on them are pretty beefy!
-i dont know why they can keep in stock smaller grips, but they sure have the thicker ones (4.35mm, i think)
-4.20 is what i use, i add an overgrip and its at 4 3/8 grip size for me
-soo the 4.35 paddles they sell, would be 4 1/2 with a overgrip

-recently, they had to give people a "grip kit" to decrease the grip size if needed
-since they just had the 4.35 size paddles, i asked and they made it available at purchase time

-when i received the paddles, i took it apart
-all it was is a small long foam type material that needs to be switched out
-easy enough to modify
-dm me if interested
-or check them out using the link

KiwiLabs Pickleball | Premium Carbon Fiber Pickleball Paddles

Kiwi Labs Pickleball

kiwipickleball.com

 

[I Dink Too Much]

Kiwi Slice: A fellow at the club plays with that paddle. I didn't know what it was. Looking at the specs, it looks like it ought to be a good paddle. (And he has a good all-around game, like mine.) Nice to know there are more alternatives to the (very good, but pricey) Joolas.
_____________

My CRBN 1 came with a 4 1/4 grip. Two full size heat shrink sleeves (From Total Pickleball, of course!) brings it to 4 1/2. Grip and overgrip and the grip is a hair above 4 5/8.

I didn't measure the final result. I just know it feels a lot better than those skinny handles the paddles come with ... and my tennis elbow is not a problem anymore.

- Dink

 

[ByeByePoly]

I have large hands and used to buy 4 5/8 grips for tennis ... and add a full size heat shrink sleeve to make my tennis grips 4 3/4.

Paddles all come stock with skinny grips. I build-up my paddle with TWO heat shrink sleeves, a regular grip AND an overgrip. My tennis elbow-y symptoms disappeared after about a month.

I’m lucky I don’t have to modify paddle grips other than overgrips. My tennis racquet grips were 4 3/8 + orig blue grip that did not slip. I find the slightly smaller 4.25 grips good to go on my Vatic Pro paddles with an overgrip. One of my previous brand paddles (can’t remember which one) was slightly too small and just used two overgrips.

My guess is holding a grip too tight is usually more about habit than grip size. When I started in high school tennis, everyone used the finger width guide between palm and tips of the fingers. I think many of us dropped that over the years and just made sure fingertips just didn’t touch palm.

Based on a year of trying other’s paddles in open play … my bet on gripping to tight is sweaty, slimy, greasy grips. Usually original grip with no idea of regularly changed overgrips. I was a light grip tennis player for decades, and that carried over to paddles … and I couldn’t hold on to those slimy grips either without squeezing tight.

My one TE (9 months bad) happened late in my tennis. I got back to 100% as long as I stuck with multi, but any poly (even just crosses) would give the elbow twinge warnings the following day (never playing). On a few occasions, I have felt very minor elbow twinges with the Vatic thermoformed … forearm massage before play always prevents them. I have currently gone back to Vatic Prism Flash 16mm (unibody, edge foam, not thermoformed) and a little softer feel with zero elbow issues.

I don’t think TE in pickleball is as clear as in tennis. In tennis, advice is generally play with heavier headlight racquet. Heavier because it helps you win the collision at contact. In pickleball … the advice is lighter paddles, particularly lighter swingweight. Why the complete opposite advice one might ask. I know when I take a full swing from the baseline in pickleball I’ve never once felt vibration from 26g wiffle contact. Actually with my XSPAK I barely could feel any contact on full swings (that’s when I found out I was not a fan of “too muted”). My theory … and only a theory … is that TE from pickleball has much less to do with contact, and all about too much repetitive motion for a given players capacity. Since pickleball is a target rich “arming“ environment because the game doesn’t allow as much body rotation assist, we all are doing very inefficient repetitive motions out of necessity. I put the 1hbh ping pong punch volley at the kitchen at the top of the “arming” culprit list. Let’s assume I have guessed right here … what paddle (static weight, swingweight, shape) is easiest on arm? A standard or hybrid shaped light swingweight paddle seems logical. But is that even that black and white? I hit punch volleys, roll volleys, blocks with expected results. Do I perform a more taxing repetitive ping pong punch with my 8.4oz Prism Flash 16 or my wife’s 8.2oz Pro Flash 16mm. More with Prism on 1hbh punch volleys I would say … wife’s paddle is a sweet springy point and shoot. But blocks … maybe that reverses … 8.4oz static weight mass maybe blocks more easily than 8.2oz even though more poppy.

My real point is who the heck knows in pickleball … we had years to make up TE theories in tennis and there was no kitchen.

fyi … I could make the case extended paddles causes me less repetitive stress than hybrid paddles because I don’t get to hit as many volleys because my extended paddle hand speed failed earlier.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I’m lucky I don’t have to modify paddle grips other than overgrips. My tennis racquet grips were 4 3/8 + orig blue grip that did not slip. I find the slightly smaller 4.25 grips good to go on my Vatic Pro paddles with an overgrip. One of my previous brand paddles (can’t remember which one) was slightly too small and just used two overgrips.

My guess is holding a grip too tight is usually more about habit than grip size. When I started in high school tennis, everyone used the finger width guide between palm and tips of the fingers. I think many of us dropped that over the years and just made sure fingertips just didn’t touch palm.

Based on a year of trying other’s paddles in open play … my bet on gripping to tight is sweaty, slimy, greasy grips. Usually original grip with no idea of regularly changed overgrips. I was a light grip tennis player for decades, and that carried over to paddles … and I couldn’t hold on to those slimy grips either without squeezing tight.

My one TE (9 months bad) happened late in my tennis. I got back to 100% as long as I stuck with multi, but any poly (even just crosses) would give the elbow twinge warnings the following day (never playing). On a few occasions, I have felt very minor elbow twinges with the Vatic thermoformed … forearm massage before play always prevents them. I have currently gone back to Vatic Prism Flash 16mm (unibody, edge foam, not thermoformed) and a little softer feel with zero elbow issues.

I don’t think TE in pickleball is as clear as in tennis. In tennis, advice is generally play with heavier headlight racquet. Heavier because it helps you win the collision at contact. In pickleball … the advice is lighter paddles, particularly lighter swingweight. Why the complete opposite advice one might ask. I know when I take a full swing from the baseline in pickleball I’ve never once felt vibration from 26g wiffle contact. Actually with my XSPAK I barely could feel any contact on full swings (that’s when I found out I was not a fan of “too muted”). My theory … and only a theory … is that TE from pickleball has much less to do with contact, and all about too much repetitive motion for a given players capacity. Since pickleball is a target rich “arming“ environment because the game doesn’t allow as much body rotation assist, we all are doing very inefficient repetitive motions out of necessity. I put the 1hbh ping pong punch volley at the kitchen at the top of the “arming” culprit list. Let’s assume I have guessed right here … what paddle (static weight, swingweight, shape) is easiest on arm? A standard or hybrid shaped light swingweight paddle seems logical. But is that even that black and white? I hit punch volleys, roll volleys, blocks with expected results. Do I perform a more taxing repetitive ping pong punch with my 8.4oz Prism Flash 16 or my wife’s 8.2oz Pro Flash 16mm. More with Prism on 1hbh punch volleys I would say … wife’s paddle is a sweet springy point and shoot. But blocks … maybe that reverses … 8.4oz static weight mass maybe blocks more easily than 8.2oz even though more poppy.

My real point is who the heck knows in pickleball … we had years to make up TE theories in tennis and there was no kitchen.

fyi … I could make the case extended paddles causes me less repetitive stress than hybrid paddles because I don’t get to hit as many volleys because my extended paddle hand speed failed earlier.

I will throw one more “mysteries of pickleball elbow” into the mix. Tennis racquets flex … and much has been written about racquet recoil weight (just search here in tennis racquet forum). Many believe a racquet’s recoil weight customization is the number one thing you can do for arm health. I never experimented with it but one of my surprising discoveries in the middle of bad TE was how bad it hurt to hit a ball near the tip. And it wasn’t the contact that hurt … it was when the racquet immediately flexed back. Hurt bad … even when I had healed enough where center contact was good to go. It made me think the “how/where” flexing back thing could certainly matter with arm tendon stress.

I mention this as more anecdotal evidence that maybe TE is losing at contact, and PE is simply losing at repetitive motion. Perhaps a heavier racquet (static or swingweight) helps win at contact, but that isn’t a big arm health factor in pickleball. In pickleball perhaps a lighter paddle wielded during all those kitchen punch volleys, and more backhand arming swings in general could in fact help someone having elbow issues in pickleball. Unless you come from tennis, and even if you do … heavy swingweight paddles may not be your best choice if you have elbow issues.

 

[srvnvly]

I think grip size is a factor: the. Vatic Pro I tried had a 4 1/8 grip vs my just-discontinued Selkirk Mach 6 (Vanguard v2). It seems a lot of companies have a mix of grip sizes, which makes NO sense, and the trend is to move to the smaller grip size. I played well in the past with the smaller Paddletek grip, so maybe smaller grip size and stiffer/harsher materials (RCF, not sure yet about Kevlar) are part of it.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I think grip size is a factor: the. Vatic Pro I tried had a 4 1/8 grip vs my just-discontinued Selkirk Mach 6 (Vanguard v2). It seems a lot of companies have a mix of grip sizes, which makes NO sense, and the trend is to move to the smaller grip size. I played well in the past with the smaller Paddletek grip, so maybe smaller grip size and stiffer/harsher materials (RCF, not sure yet about Kevlar) are part of it.

Did your elbow start feeling better after going back to Selkirk? We can talk theories all we want … but nothing is better than “this paddle hurts my elbow less”. I did that testing a lot of tennis multi strings.

I will repeat my #1 advice forever … massage forearm (I just use my fingers and thumb) for a couple of minutes before playing. I also massage tricep. I can immediately feel difference after forearm massage, and massage gun on calves. Body falling apart … next will be duct tape.

Since the paddle has no flex, I’m not sure how much surface material matters. As long as we have plastic inside, how much can it matter? Maybe something like foam cores would help with more give, but again no paddle flex. Maybe if we were talking vibration, but I don’t feel that in paddles. I haven’t hit the Ruby (kevlar) yet, but am curious about how it “feels”.

Luca at RacketsandRunners talks about flex in Vatic Pro Alchemy review. I have not hit with it.

@2:10 - feel/flex

 

[I Dink Too Much]

I don't know how much "weight" I would give that Luca guy's information. Watching his play, he plays pickleball like a tennis player. (Agreed, pickleball singles is a lot more like tennis singles than doubles is ... but you shouldn't play pickleball like Luca does. Way too big and flowing tennis-y swings, too many floating slice returns, he doesn't appear to know how to reset and his dinks are poor. (Luca even admitted the soft game is the weakest part of his game.) Then at 5:16 on his video he serves and volleys(!). For some reason his opponent didn't catch the ball and claim the point. You MUST allow the return to bounce!)

Even in singles pickleball is played best when employing more third shot drops and resets. These skills are virtually absent from Luca's game. Luca's athleticism is obvious; his pickleball game is ... intermediate.

 

[ByeByePoly]

I don't know how much "weight" I would give that Luca guy's information. Watching his play, he plays pickleball like a tennis player. (Agreed, pickleball singles is a lot more like tennis singles than doubles is ... but you shouldn't play pickleball like Luca does. Way too big and flowing tennis-y swings, too many floating slice returns, he doesn't appear to know how to reset and his dinks are poor. (Luca even admitted the soft game is the weakest part of his game.) Then at 5:16 on his video he serves and volleys(!). For some reason his opponent didn't catch the ball and claim the point. You MUST allow the return to bounce!)

Even in singles pickleball is played best when employing more third shot drops and resets. These skills are virtually absent from Luca's game. Luca's athleticism is obvious; his pickleball game is ... intermediate.

I actually think Luca, coming from tennis, has been my best source of all the reviewers on how a paddle will play (power, spin, feel). But I now factor in I am virtually a doubles only player (other then when I treat myself to a singes game on occasion if a court is open during open play), and doubles pickleball is a completely different game than singles. So typically I want to hear early from Luca, and then get more doubles specific considerations from (Pickleball Studio, Pickleball Will, John Kew, Farmer Lanky, STS).

The real problem is just like tennis rackets, reviews only get you so far. With tennis racquets, you could demo many rackets first before buying. You also need the ability to play games with a paddle, a 5 minute test is not enough. Then throw in, particularly if coming from tennis, you might very well need 6+ months of playing tennis (banging) on a pickleball court before you are willing to concede that quits working against better players. The best paddle for banging isn’t typically the best paddle for doubles and fast hands at the kitchen. My one year journey has taken me from elongated V7 to hybrid Prism Flash. It has also taken me from feeling uncomfortable in firefights to now “bring it … I want to be here now”. Hybrid is so much better for me at kitchen (other than overheads) … not even close (surprised me actually) … and I had to learn that over time buying way too many paddles. The game needs to address the need to demo …

 

[I Dink Too Much]

There's a guy who has a business doing paddle reviews ... and repairs. (I will not name his company because it wouldn't be right to send you to him off Total Pickleball's site. He has a commission deal with a competitor of Total Pickleball.)

My point is ... a good paddle reviewer should be able to help you avoid buying 10-14 paddles before settling on the right one. I described my game and told the reviewer I started with a Franklin Ben Johns -- and told him what I *wished* I could do the the Franklin.
He narrowed his suggestion to four paddles. I bought three of them and really enjoy my CRBN 1.

(Total Pickleball has a service to help. Buy a paddle; try it out. If within 30 days you don't like it, they'll give you that paddle's full value on a return for a different paddle. An economical way to make an informed choice.)

Or ... the next time you're in Colorado, stop by my court on my property(!). I have about ten paddles I let guests use ... and I have friends who'll let you try their paddles.

- Dink

 

[ByeByePoly]

There's a guy who has a business doing paddle reviews ... and repairs. (I will not name his company because it wouldn't be right to send you to him off Total Pickleball's site. He has a commission deal with a competitor of Total Pickleball.)

My point is ... a good paddle reviewer should be able to help you avoid buying 10-14 paddles before settling on the right one. I described my game and told the reviewer I started with a Franklin Ben Johns -- and told him what I *wished* I could do the the Franklin.
He narrowed his suggestion to four paddles. I bought three of them and really enjoy my CRBN 1.

(Total Pickleball has a service to help. Buy a paddle; try it out. If within 30 days you don't like it, they'll give you that paddle's full value on a return for a different paddle. An economical way to make an informed choice.)

Or ... the next time you're in Colorado, stop by my court on my property(!). I have about ten paddles I let guests use ... and I have friends who'll let you try their paddles.

- Dink

Love me some Colorado … had an uncle and aunt living in Golden … visited as a kid.

“My point is ... a good paddle reviewer should be able to help you avoid buying 10-14 paddles”

but not 9 … a good shrink couldn’t have prevented that much less a paddle reviewer.

No tennis reviewer could have picked my racquet and strings for me … wouldn’t have wanted them to. I just need to know what options and tradeoffs exist, and I can take it from there. This year of pickleball has been observing, learning, improving … I want a different paddle now than when I started. Also paddle tech changed so much this year, you might have bought several paddles for tech reasons … no paddle reviewer could have picked a 12 month paddle for those buying new tech.

Just to name a few tech changes without even mentioning shapes and specs:

carbon face non-thermoformed -> carbon face thermoformed -> Gearbox SST -> Apes carbon/kevlar face -> Ruby kevlar face.

Pickleball paddles have much more tradeoffs than tennis racquets … there is no simple cookie cutter approach to selection. It also depends on how informed you want to be, I need to know and try and compare, others just buy a Joola or Selkirk.

Have to pick your tradeoffs for yourself. Once at that point, you have narrowed your options. For me, only playing for a while informed me on what worked best for me. If I showed up day one with my current Prism Flash, I still would have sucked in firefights. Now I can pull my V7 elongated back out … and test the idea that I am better at kitchen with less swingweight, and hybrid shape instead of elongated. Also … how would ever know for sure if thermoformed is what you want if you never played with it for weeks/months?

 

[I Dink Too Much]

Love me some Colorado … had an uncle and aunt living in Golden … visited as a kid.

Great! We love it here ... although looking at my court today, with eight inches of snow on it, makes me appreciate my "snow bird" friends who go to AZ, FL or SC for the winters.

“My point is ... a good paddle reviewer should be able to help you avoid buying 10-14 paddles”

but not 9 … a good shrink couldn’t have prevented that much less a paddle reviewer.

You got me! That made me snort the water I was just drinking!

<snip>
Pickleball paddles have much more tradeoffs than tennis racquets … there is no simple cookie cutter approach to selection. It also depends on how informed you want to be, I need to know and try and compare, others just buy a Joola or Selkirk.

Your writing reminds me of one of the guys in our winter block at the club. He is the only player I've seen who will switch paddles frequently -- sometimes mid-game. We, who play with him, know he keeps gravitating to one paddle which has tooo much power built into it for him. When he's my partner in the rotation, I go get one of the two paddles I know he plays better with and take the clunker away from him. (He just laughs, and accepts the switch.)

Fortunately those who "just buy a Joola or Selkirk" are still getting pretty decent paddles ... most of the time. The players who impair their improvement are the ones who buy their paddle at Walmart. (And I still see a lot of them on the courts.)

There's a 40-something player in the Round Robin at the park who *finally* switched away from his wooden paddle(!). Watching his wife switch, and seeing her game get better and better is what (I think) motivated him.

Have to pick your tradeoffs for yourself.

True. You write (and think?) like an engineer. Is that a bad guess on my part?

Also … how would ever know for sure if thermoformed is what you want if you never played with it for weeks/months?

Is that you? Do you have to tryout every new innovation in the tech? (Not a criticism; just a question.)

I have changed paddles only when I realized my game is putting me in the position of trying to do things with the ball that the paddle won't let me. Meaning, my game has advanced beyond my board. (When I played the Franklin Ben Johns friends were noticing I was consistently hitting off-center. When they asked me if I knew I was doing that, I said, "Yeah. The grit has worn smooth on the sweet spot." Their stunned looks prompted me to checkout new paddles. (I didn't know being able to intentionally make contact off-center was so strange...!)

This last paddle replacement I simply got another CRBN 1. I'm willing to pay that cost once a year (which is how long the CRBN's grit seems to last me) for now....

- Dink

 

[ByeByePoly]

Great! We love it here ... although looking at my court today, with eight inches of snow on it, makes me appreciate my "snow bird" friends who go to AZ, FL or SC for the winters.

Golden was beautiful, uncle had back balcony that looked down on two ponds … fed hummingbirds that landed on our fingers below the feeders.

You got me! That made me snort the water I was just drinking!

Then my work here is done

Your writing reminds me of one of the guys in our winter block at the club. He is the only player I've seen who will switch paddles frequently -- sometimes mid-game. We, who play with him, know he keeps gravitating to one paddle which has tooo much power built into it for him. When he's my partner in the rotation, I go get one of the two paddles I know he plays better with and take the clunker away from him. (He just laughs, and accepts the switch.)

Not generally my nature … everything the same down to fresh tournagrip in tennis tournaments, and USTA. Now retired and entertaining myself with pickleball and paddles.

Fortunately those who "just buy a Joola or Selkirk" are still getting pretty decent paddles ... most of the time.

Four Vatic Pros in bag … $500
Four Selkirk Labs … divorce

The players who impair their improvement are the ones who buy their paddle at Walmart. (And I still see a lot of them on the courts.)

There's a 40-something player in the Round Robin at the park who *finally* switched away from his wooden paddle(!). Watching his wife switch, and seeing her game get better and better is what (I think) motivated him.


True. You write (and think?) like an engineer. Is that a bad guess on my part?

Software Programmer … started with Marketing degree, it was the programming degree and career that ruined me.

Is that you? Do you have to tryout every new innovation in the tech? (Not a criticism; just a question.)

Not with TVs, yes with paddles. But most of the “tryouts” are at open play aren’t followed by purchase. The new Gearbox PPE only required 2 minutes.

I have changed paddles only when I realized my game is putting me in the position of trying to do things with the ball that the paddle won't let me. Meaning, my game has advanced beyond my board. (When I played the Franklin Ben Johns friends were noticing I was consistently hitting off-center. When they asked me if I knew I was doing that, I said, "Yeah. The grit has worn smooth on the sweet spot." Their stunned looks prompted me to checkout new paddles. (I didn't know being able to intentionally make contact off-center was so strange...!)

I hit everywhere on the paddle to get my $ worth. I always tell myself the ones near the edge were all reflex shots at the kitchen that was gifted coordination to even get a paddle on it. I lie.

This last paddle replacement I simply got another CRBN 1. I'm willing to pay that cost once a year (which is how long the CRBN's grit seems to last me) for now....

- Dink

CRBN 1, not 1x thermoformed right? If so, have you played with thermoformed?

 

[I Dink Too Much]

It's been my understanding the thermoformed paddles add power. I don't need more power. I play the 16mm control paddles.

Am I mistaken about the thermoformed paddles adding power?

One of the paddles I bought, on the recommendation of ___, was the Joola Ben Johns Professional Series Solaire CFS 14 mm Pickleball Paddle. My 10 year-old, hyper-competitive grandson loves it ... and plays very well with it. I couldn't keep my shots in the court with it. (That's the one paddle I paid too much for, IMO.)

 

[ByeByePoly]

It's been my understanding the thermoformed paddles add power. I don't need more power. I play the 16mm control paddles.

Am I mistaken about the thermoformed paddles adding power?

One of the paddles I bought, on the recommendation of ___, was the Joola Ben Johns Professional Series Solaire CFS 14 mm Pickleball Paddle. My 10 year-old, hyper-competitive grandson loves it ... and plays very well with it. I couldn't keep my shots in the court with it. (That's the one paddle I paid too much for, IMO.)

Yes … the new thermoformed framed paddles introduced 2023 (first to market Six Zero, Vatic, Ronbus, Legacy … then more followed) introduced a stiffer framed unibody paddle with more power and spin. Many that come from tennis don’t need the extra power (in doubles) but do not want to lose the extra spin. I had no issues keeping ball in with the Vatic Pro V7 (thermoformed, extended 16mm, swingweight 120), and if the rec doubles I’m playing was won with serves, return of serves and overheads I would still be playing with it. Love that paddle. Did I mention tradeoffs? If only pickleball doubles was won by strokes and overheads … I have wished for that for a year now.

 

[ByeByePoly]

It's been my understanding the thermoformed paddles add power. I don't need more power. I play the 16mm control paddles.

Am I mistaken about the thermoformed paddles adding power?

One of the paddles I bought, on the recommendation of ___, was the Joola Ben Johns Professional Series Solaire CFS 14 mm Pickleball Paddle. My 10 year-old, hyper-competitive grandson loves it ... and plays very well with it. I couldn't keep my shots in the court with it. (That's the one paddle I paid too much for, IMO.)

Hard to watch this game with all the defense involved and think any of them would benefit from more power. The Ruby is thermoformed, don’t think the others are.

 

[I Dink Too Much]

Hard to watch this game with all the defense involved and think any of them would benefit from more power. The Ruby is thermoformed, don’t think the others are.

What a "clinic" on soft game vs power game!

a) Briones Pickleball is one of my Top Four go-to channels.
b) I really enjoyed being right ... that the control players would prevail.
c) Eban (the Brit) has a SUPERIOR backhand. He speeds-up from the low YELLOW too much. He also lobs DTL too much.
d) Beau (all black attire) can bang way better than the 4.0 / 4.5 guys I play with. I was surprised he kept so many of those drives IN.
e) I was suprised Jordan (paddle reviewer, Yeager is last name) has such good control with that Ruby. He's GOOD.
f) Jesse (backwards cap) plays (a better version) of my game. Excellent resets, drops and dinks. Oh! He foot faults a lot in those cross-court dink battles. (Left toes.)
g) Beau and Eban really had the Shake 'N Bake play down! When they were not attacking their teamwork (positioning / shading / covering the middle) simply wasn't as good as Jordan's and Jesse's. And they each hit way too many third shot drives, IMO.

- Dink

 

[ByeByePoly]

What a "clinic" on soft game vs power game!

a) Briones Pickleball is one of my Top Four go-to channels.
b) I really enjoyed being right ... that the control players would prevail.
c) Eban (the Brit) has a SUPERIOR backhand. He speeds-up from the low YELLOW too much. He also lobs DTL too much.
d) Beau (all black attire) can bang way better than the 4.0 / 4.5 guys I play with. I was surprised he kept so many of those drives IN.
e) I was suprised Jordan (paddle reviewer, Yeager is last name) has such good control with that Ruby. He's GOOD.
f) Jesse (backwards cap) plays (a better version) of my game. Excellent resets, drops and dinks. Oh! He foot faults a lot in those cross-court dink battles. (Left toes.)
g) Beau and Eban really had the Shake 'N Bake play down! When they were not attacking their teamwork (positioning / shading / covering the middle) simply wasn't as good as Jordan's and Jesse's. And they each hit way too many third shot drives, IMO.

- Dink

To me … Jesse’s dink and reset skills was the highlight reel of this game. It would be a good video for tennis players to watch starting pickleball doubles. My #1 area of needed improvement is resetting … my tennis instinct fights against it. My offense skills (particularly speedups and overheads) pair well with doubles partners with good defense skills. I do think resets share the same risk as 3rd shop drops … easy to overdo it and shelve offense.

@srvnvly … sorry, forgot this was TE thread, we can take this discussion to another thread.

 

[srvnvly]

Did your elbow start feeling better after going back to Selkirk? We can talk theories all we want … but nothing is better than “this paddle hurts my elbow less”. I did that testing a lot of tennis multi strings.

I will repeat my #1 advice forever … massage forearm (I just use my fingers and thumb) for a couple of minutes before playing. I also massage tricep. I can immediately feel difference after forearm massage, and massage gun on calves. Body falling apart … next will be duct tape.

Since the paddle has no flex, I’m not sure how much surface material matters. As long as we have plastic inside, how much can it matter? Maybe something like foam cores would help with more give, but again no paddle flex. Maybe if we were talking vibration, but I don’t feel that in paddles. I haven’t hit the Ruby (kevlar) yet, but am curious about how it “feels”.

Luca at RacketsandRunners talks about flex in Vatic Pro Alchemy review. I have not hit with it.

@2:10 - feel/flex

It did, though I did some stretching and massaging of my forearm; when I played tennis, I switched to Tecnifibre X-1 Biphase strings for my then Aeropro Drive, and that helped my elbow tremendously.

 

[srvnvly]

To me … Jesse’s dink and reset skills was the highlight reel of this game. It would be a good video for tennis players to watch starting pickleball doubles. My #1 area of needed improvement is resetting … my tennis instinct fights against it. My offense skills (particularly speedups and overheads) pair well with doubles partners with good defense skills. I do think resets share the same risk as 3rd shop drops … easy to overdo it and shelve offense.

@srvnvly … sorry, forgot this was TE thread, we can take this discussion to another thread.

No worries, love the back-n-forth discussion!

 

[ByeByePoly]

No worries, love the back-n-forth discussion!

Good … ttw is the land of thread hijacking … sometimes good hijacking, sometimes not so much.

 

[ByeByePoly]

What a "clinic" on soft game vs power game!

a) Briones Pickleball is one of my Top Four go-to channels.
b) I really enjoyed being right ... that the control players would prevail.
c) Eban (the Brit) has a SUPERIOR backhand. He speeds-up from the low YELLOW too much. He also lobs DTL too much.
d) Beau (all black attire) can bang way better than the 4.0 / 4.5 guys I play with. I was surprised he kept so many of those drives IN.
e) I was suprised Jordan (paddle reviewer, Yeager is last name) has such good control with that Ruby. He's GOOD.
f) Jesse (backwards cap) plays (a better version) of my game. Excellent resets, drops and dinks. Oh! He foot faults a lot in those cross-court dink battles. (Left toes.)
g) Beau and Eban really had the Shake 'N Bake play down! When they were not attacking their teamwork (positioning / shading / covering the middle) simply wasn't as good as Jordan's and Jesse's. And they each hit way too many third shot drives, IMO.

- Dink

Now that I have accepted I can’t hit winners off of 3” bounces in the transition zone … new questions occur to me … better late than never.

Following about from transition zone back from kitchen:

Obviously the gold standard for a reset is ball bounces in opponent's kitchen. However … a ball that hits the net or a pop up to a point ending smash are both equal at losing the point. This game (video) is a good example of thin margins and errors being supreme in winning or losing. It’s like tennis … you have to have achieved the skills to play at a level, you have to perform those skills at very low user error to win at that level.

So … my resetting observation/questions in my mind revolve around when to go for the perfect reset vs hit a good enough reset to keep the point alive.

Something like this:

A - resets that bounce in opponents kitchen or force a low volley that can’t be sped up
C - any shot that keeps point alive … hit right of the bounce off pace very low over net, good enough lob (would need definition … Eban hit one), drive that keeps point alive
F - point loser … into net, long or wide, point ending smash/overhead

I am thinking mainly thought process and shot selection here after you have acquired the resetting skills. Obviously working on anything new … 3rd shot drops, reset to bounce in kitchen always involves errors, one step back for a while.

This has been my approach to transition play when on defense in transition zone:
- never have a thought of bounce in kitchen
- good hands from tennis, so good at taking balls right off bounce and keeping low enough over net to avoid put away
- also from early on pretty good a taking ball right off bounce and hitting good enough lob to get back to neutral … but low lobs the worse and pi$$ off partners no matter how many good lobs happened before in that game



My first step will be looking for first reset option of bouncing in kitchen. From there … shot selection/thought process will be dictating by best low user error shot available.

btw … I have seen all year how great 3rd shot and reset skills are great equalizers for players without strokes. One of my favorite doubles partners was an 18 year old that came from soccer, never a racquet or paddle in his hand. In short order … 3rd shot drop, reset, dink machine. Fast hands at kitchen but just blocked … no speedups, counters, block overheads, great athlete, tall with long reach. Intermediate pickleball can be a very frustrating year for incoming tennis players. Oh … after about 6 months junior starting having strokes also … uh oh.

 

[ByeByePoly]

What a "clinic" on soft game vs power game!

a) Briones Pickleball is one of my Top Four go-to channels.
b) I really enjoyed being right ... that the control players would prevail.
c) Eban (the Brit) has a SUPERIOR backhand. He speeds-up from the low YELLOW too much. He also lobs DTL too much.
d) Beau (all black attire) can bang way better than the 4.0 / 4.5 guys I play with. I was surprised he kept so many of those drives IN.
e) I was suprised Jordan (paddle reviewer, Yeager is last name) has such good control with that Ruby. He's GOOD.
f) Jesse (backwards cap) plays (a better version) of my game. Excellent resets, drops and dinks. Oh! He foot faults a lot in those cross-court dink battles. (Left toes.)
g) Beau and Eban really had the Shake 'N Bake play down! When they were not attacking their teamwork (positioning / shading / covering the middle) simply wasn't as good as Jordan's and Jesse's. And they each hit way too many third shot drives, IMO.

- Dink

Rule question/clarification:

I know if you push off the kitchen line to hit an overhead it can be a fault, but I assume that’s only if you don’t get both feet reestablished back into the court behind the kitchen line.

At 3:48 Jesse pushes off from inside the kitchen, but both feet end up behind kitchen before jumping for overhead. I think that is legal. ??? fyi … I play the video back at .25 speed to review.

Never mind … found it:

• If you pushed off the court to head back for an overhead and your foot touches the NVZ or the NVZ line as you push off, and you make contact with the overhead before that foot has reestablished itself by touching a portion of the court behind the NVZ line, then that is a fault.

Fault-Proofing Your Pickleball Game | What is a Fault in Pickleball? - PrimeTime Pickleball

Learn about the common faults in pickleball and how to avoid them in your game. Discover the importance of proper footwork, serving technique, and more in this comprehensive guide to fault-proofing your pickleball game

primetimepickleball.com

 

[I Dink Too Much]

Following about from transition zone back from kitchen:

Obviously the gold standard for a reset is ball bounces in opponent's kitchen.

Check. If you're playing with 3.5s or better your warm-ups should include some reset drilling: One player at the NVZ hitting forcefully at the feet of the player who is setting up about 4 feet inside the baseline. After 3-5 successful resets, move IN two steps; rinse & repeat....

Note that the deeper you are in the court, the more on YOUR side of the net is the apex of the reset shot. (Or the ball will bounce too high, setting-up the opponent for a winner.)

So … my resetting observation/questions in my mind revolve around when to go for the perfect reset vs hit a good enough reset to keep the point alive.

Something like this:

A - resets that bounce in opponents kitchen or force a low volley that can’t be sped up
C - any shot that keeps point alive … hit right of the bounce off pace very low over net, good enough lob (would need definition … Eban hit one), drive that keeps point alive
F - point loser … into net, long or wide, point ending smash/overhead

BBP, I'm fuzzy about what you're communicating here. Can you elaborate / rephrase?

This has been my approach to transition play when on defense in transition zone:
- never have a thought of bounce in kitchen

I don't understand "never have a thought of bounce in kitchen." Does this mean you're not striving for this ... or resetting into the kitchen is a no-brainer for you?

- good hands from tennis, so good at taking balls right off bounce and keeping low enough over net to avoid put away

You've touched on something here. I hear GOOD pickleball players and instructors insist half-volley shots simply do not work in pickleball. We, who come from tennis (and had good half-volley skills THERE), have a kind of "silver bullet" skill picklers -- who DO NOT have tennis backgrounds -- lack.

I play three hours every Thursday with the same group of six other 4.0 / 4.0+ guys. Two of them never played tennis; two others didn't play tennis competitively. When I am able to hit a forcing shot off a half-volley those four guys are quick to exclaim about what a "great shot" I made. The three of us who did play competitive tennis each can hit those half-volley shots the "brain trust" insists are poor choices for picklers. (But I still am careful to get my butt down low for those shots. A lot of guys my age cannot get down for those balls.)

- also from early on pretty good a taking ball right off bounce and hitting good enough lob to get back to neutral … but low lobs the worse and pi$$ off partners no matter how many good lobs happened before in that game

Again ... the "brain trust" insists lobs work for pickleball only 20% of the time. I track my lobbing; on a bad day my success with lobs is 50%.

My personal view is, if you're not at least successful half the time with lobbing, you need to drill lobs more to get better. I call a lob "successful" if it (a) is a winner (b) drives the opponents off the NVZ, putting them purely on defense (c) allows your team to firmly establish possession of the NVZ ... even IF the opponents are able to maintain their own position there.

A picture really DOES say more than 1,000 words, huh?

btw … I have seen all year how great 3rd shot and reset skills are great equalizers for players without strokes. One of my favorite doubles partners was an 18 year old that came from soccer, never a racquet or paddle in his hand. In short order … 3rd shot drop, reset, dink machine.
Fast hands at kitchen but just blocked … no speedups, counters, block overheads, great athlete, tall with long reach. Intermediate pickleball can be a very frustrating year for incoming tennis players. Oh … after about 6 months junior starting having strokes also … uh oh.

That partner must be impressive. Having good touch and NOT having tennis, table tennis or racketball backgrounds...? Wow!

 

[ByeByePoly]

Check. If you're playing with 3.5s or better your warm-ups should include some reset drilling: One player at the NVZ hitting forcefully at the feet of the player who is setting up about 4 feet inside the baseline. After 3-5 successful resets, move IN two steps; rinse & repeat....

Note that the deeper you are in the court, the more on YOUR side of the net is the apex of the reset shot. (Or the ball will bounce too high, setting-up the opponent for a winner.)


BBP, I'm fuzzy about what you're communicating here. Can you elaborate / rephrase?


I don't understand "never have a thought of bounce in kitchen." Does this mean you're not striving for this ... or resetting into the kitchen is a no-brainer for you?


You've touched on something here. I hear GOOD pickleball players and instructors insist half-volley shots simply do not work in pickleball. We, who come from tennis (and had good half-volley skills THERE), have a kind of "silver bullet" skill picklers -- who DO NOT have tennis backgrounds -- lack.

I play three hours every Thursday with the same group of six other 4.0 / 4.0+ guys. Two of them never played tennis; two others didn't play tennis competitively. When I am able to hit a forcing shot off a half-volley those four guys are quick to exclaim about what a "great shot" I made. The three of us who did play competitive tennis each can hit those half-volley shots the "brain trust" insists are poor choices for picklers. (But I still am careful to get my butt down low for those shots. A lot of guys my age cannot get down for those balls.)


Again ... the "brain trust" insists lobs work for pickleball only 20% of the time. I track my lobbing; on a bad day my success with lobs is 50%.

My personal view is, if you're not at least successful half the time with lobbing, you need to drill lobs more to get better. I call a lob "successful" if it (a) is a winner (b) drives the opponents off the NVZ, putting them purely on defense (c) allows your team to firmly establish possession of the NVZ ... even IF the opponents are able to maintain their own position there.


A picture really DOES say more than 1,000 words, huh?



That partner must be impressive. Having good touch and NOT having tennis, table tennis or racketball backgrounds...? Wow!

Most of this year has been open play, and warmup is generally just brief dinking and then play. I hop on a treadmill briefly and do a same stretches before I go to court. We rarely have an open court for drilling … that should change now that I’m joining a 2nd place. I have been wanting to drill all year. My top drills I need is dinks, 3rd shot drops (the soft long dink ones, already decent at forehand topspin 3rd shot drops and not bad on 2hbh topspin drops), reset skills … think Jesse.

All of that A, C Fail was just thinking that the first goal in resetting is keep point alive, and if available go for reset that bounces in kitchen. My soft right off the bounce, off speed low over the net that opponent has to volley but isn’t high enough to end point. Let me say it a different way … using Jesse in the video as an example. He has the ability to pull off gold standard resets time after time. But take a l lesser resetter (me) … and say I miss 5 in a row hitting the top of the net trying to hit perfect reset that bounces. Now back to math … a barely missed reset loses the point just the same as hitting to high to be smashed. But a less than perfect reset that is still low enough keeps the point alive.

That’s a long way to go to saying I think many pickleball games are lost with bad errors … and maybe going for perfect shot. I guess drill “perfect” and take note what you can replicate low error.

My

"never have a thought of bounce in kitchen."

was just my way of saying even once I quit trying to drive everything right off bounce in transition, I didn’t take it to next level and think reset/drop/bounce. I thought touch low shot right off the bounce not high enough to smash. Now it’s time to think bounce in kitchen on resets … tennis is being removed from my soul one dink and one reset at a time.