Flat serves, worth it?

Mbautista · Oct 1, 2008

if you're 5'6 shouldnt you be learning how to do slice serves/kick serves instead? A friend of mine is really adamant about learning a flat power serve, and that only, but I keep telling him height is a huge factor in it. He doesnt agree and constantly double faults or just touches the ball in for second serves...what should I tell him to convince him to learn slice /kicks.

tennisdad65 · Oct 1, 2008

I am 5-10, about a 4.5, and probably hit a flat serve once a month

Slice and topspin serves have to be learnt to get to the intermediate or advanced level.

PimpMyGame · Oct 1, 2008

I'm 5'8" and made the switch this year to at least 80% slice (not bad) or kick (not great) serves, with the remaining 20% flat. It's taken pace off but I'm striving towards some better 1st serve percentages, and fewer DFs.

SlapShot · Oct 1, 2008

What do you consider flat? I hit a topspin serve that most people consider "flat" compared to my kicker, and that's my #1 singles serve. I frequently "flatten out" my serve to add some pace and keep the ball a bit lower when people start to adapt to my kickers and slice.

If you're talking about frying pan grip with no pronation, your friend should abandon that ASAP, but there's nothing wrong with developing a hybrid serve that moved a little quicker than a standard kick or slice serve.

jamauss · Oct 1, 2008

I'm about 5'8"

What I've worked hard to develop is a pretty consistent and aggressive second serve (kick serve), which allows me to go for aces on my first serve without worrying too much about getting my 2nd serve pounded down my throat if I miss the 1st one.

10s talk · Oct 1, 2008

FWIW I think Vic Braden said you have to be 6' 8" to hit a flat serve down into the court

johnval1362 · Oct 1, 2008

if your less than 5'10, your not going to have a good flat serve unless your a professional or close to it, work on placement and a GOOD topspin serve can replace any first serve if you can place it right, and really make the opponent uncomfortable, then use your game to win the point, watch ppl like ferrer, you dont see him with too many flat aces and hes like 5th in the world

Steady Eddy · Oct 1, 2008

10s talk said:
FWIW I think Vic Braden said you have to be 6' 8" to hit a flat serve down into the court

I like Vic Braden, but there are a couple of things I'd like to say about that statement. First of all, he says, "With any margin for error." Well what's a resonable margin for error? If a person served a bullet serve, one that went so fast that the amount gravity pulled it down is negligible, then you'd only have to be about 5' 6", and the computation is easy to do. For the 21 feet from the service line to the net, you get 3 feet of rise. For the next 21 feet to the server's service line, a straight line would gain another 3 feet. The last 18 feet would be about another 2 1/2 feet in rise. So the point you need to reach with your racquet is about 8 1/2 feet. Subtract 1 1/2 feet for your racquet and another 1 1/2 feet for your arm, and anyone over 5 1/2 feet tall should be able to reach this spot with their racquet. The other good news is that no one can really hit a bullet serve. All serves follow a bent trajectory due to gravity. So the margin for error may be small, but almost everyone can hit a flat serve into the court once in a while.

bet · Oct 1, 2008

Steady Eddy said:
I like Vic Braden, but there are a couple of things I'd like to say about that statement. First of all, he says, "With any margin for error." Well what's a resonable margin for error? If a person served a bullet serve, one that went so fast that the amount gravity pulled it down is negligible, then you'd only have to be about 5' 6", and the computation is easy to do. For the 21 feet from the service line to the net, you get 3 feet of rise. For the next 21 feet to the server's service line, a straight line would gain another 3 feet. The last 18 feet would be about another 2 1/2 feet in rise. So the point you need to reach with your racquet is about 8 1/2 feet. Subtract 1 1/2 feet for your racquet and another 1 1/2 feet for your arm, and anyone over 5 1/2 feet tall should be able to reach this spot with their racquet. The other good news is that no one can really hit a bullet serve. All serves follow a bent trajectory due to gravity. So the margin for error may be small, but almost everyone can hit a flat serve into the court once in a while.

Vic WAS NOT saying that you have to be 6'8 to hit a "flat" serve into the court. He was trying to emphasize that in reality, most players must project the ball very close to straight out or even up. Further, he was emphasizing that many beginners who think of hitting it down into the court, use different mechanics instead of reaching up and out.

He readily concede that if you serve fast enough you have a chance to hit on a slightly downward trajectory (a few degrees). I had personal coaching from him and because i had a lot of speed that was one of things he kept emphasizing. He kept saying, "your serve is 120mph but it should be 130mph if you could get it further into the court and you'd even be able to hit it slightly downward. " Note: I'm under 6'.

But I will admit that the way he has expressed it in isolated cases may be confusing!

bet · Oct 1, 2008

To the original poster, I have never understood why people are SO worried about their "friend". If that's the way he wants to play and he doesn't want to take your advice. So what??

He's not going to win Wimbledon and you're not his coach, so it's not a tragedy if he doesn't maximize his game. Let him try and he may figure out that his solution is not best...and then he'll really believe it and sincerely want to try something else.

Maybe you can help him realize this by taking advantage of his game if you can. But why not worry about your own game rather than come on the internet and ask what you can say to convince him?? It sounds like you just want validation that you are right! But who cares? You can take your approach and he can take his. If he asks you for advice, give it. Otherwise, forget about it.

I'm not trying to pick on you in particular, just a phenomenon I notice over and over again on the internet.

Mbautista · Oct 1, 2008

bet said:
To the original poster, I have never understood why people are SO worried about their "friend". If that's the way he wants to play and he doesn't want to take your advice. So what??

He's not going to win Wimbledon and you're not his coach, so it's not a tragedy if he doesn't maximize his game. Let him try and he may figure out that his solution is not best...and then he'll really believe it and sincerely want to try something else.

Maybe you can help him realize this by taking advantage of his game if you can. But why not worry about your own game rather than come on the internet and ask what you can say to convince him?? It sounds like you just want validation that you are right! But who cares? You can take your approach and he can take his. If he asks you for advice, give it. Otherwise, forget about it.

I'm not trying to pick on you in particular, just a phenomenon I notice over and over again on the internet.

I let my friends know when they have spinach stuck in their teeth. I'm not by any means trying to rub it in just for the sake of being right!! It's just one friend trying to help another out, what's so wrong about that?

zidane339 · Oct 1, 2008

I'm 5'10",4.0 player, and I have trouble hitting a completely flat serve at a high percentage.I've developed a little topspin to help, and its been going in about %50-60 of the time. Its still pretty flat, but not completely.I also hit a slice/kick serve on seconds.

I would tell your friend to learn slice/kick first, that'll help develop a good second serve, then try to flatten it out. Thats the path I took.

Ballinbob · Oct 1, 2008

im 6'1 and find flat serves pretty effective. I mean, I probably slice them a little bit but they're relatively flat. i think its a good serve to learn no matter what the height, variety is always good.

TonyB · Oct 1, 2008

I'm 5' 6" and I find my flat serves to be VERY effective. Good 4.5 level players continually comment on how good my serve is. In fact, if I play someone new for the first time, they *always* tell me after the match, "Man, I can't believe you hit your serve so hard."

I'd guess that it's only 105-110 MPH, but it's got a low trajectory because I'm so short and it nearly always hits within 6 inches of the service line.

Bottom line is that some of these guys are blowing smoke by saying that flat serves are useless if you're short. My flat first serve is a major weapon in my game and if I'm hitting anywhere over 60%, I'm most definitely not losing my service games.

Z-Man · Oct 1, 2008

Hitting the ball dead flat is risky no matter how tall you are. It's more worth the risk in singles, but in doubles, a well placed high percentage spin serve is better. If you can get the flat one in at least half the time, it's not a bad idea to mix it in a few times per set to keep the returner guessing.

Placement is much more important. A soft serve with lots of angle is better than a hard one into their wheelhouse. I see lots of guys missing first serves and hitting double faults while trying to ace me. Finally, they hit the best serve of their life, and I get it back in play or hit it back for a winner.

teppeiahn1 · Oct 1, 2008

Trust me on this, power is nothing compared to consistancy and placement. If you want to be a good player, you must develope a 2nd serve.

fuzz nation · Oct 1, 2008

Where I live, the boys state high school champs have owned the title for the last decade and their coach has specifically taught them to use spin/kick serves for singles and doubles. Flat serves are too often a wasted opportunity to start points reliably when they miss their mark.

El Pelele · Oct 1, 2008

People here have something against flat serves and don't recommend them, but the pro's use them a lot no? Like last year's masters cup, Federer vs Nadal, Federer was down 0-30, and made 4 straight aces, and I'm pretty sure he made 2 or 3 flat aces.

I know that they do not recommend them much for those who don't have the skill, or technique, but if you actually practiced and spent time perfecting them, they'll become a deadly weapon.

I myself am 5'6, and I can serve flat serves, with a somewhat good %. I always use them for 1st serve, and if they don't go in, I have my back-up topspin serves, which are actually pretty good.

The only serve I have not yet learned is the slice lol.

Even with my height, and with pretty bad flat serve technique (because I don't get the chance to practice much, so it's not that good), I can still reel in many flat serves in matches, and aces too.

CoachingMastery · Oct 1, 2008

The issue of a "flat" serve must be taken in the context of its speed. Vic demonstrated a person with a string tied to the tip of a racquet held above the head, the player would have to be about 8 feet tall to get the straight string held taut, to land inside the service line.

It has been well documented that the so-called "flat" serves by the fastest serving pros has tremendous spin still associated with it. Sampras had, on average, around 2800 rpm's of spin on his 120mph first serve.

It is taught with ignorance in most cases, to encourage players to hit truly flat serves. Not only is this going to limit the speed of balls getting in, (because too flat, too fast, won't go in...thus having to back off the speed of a truly flat serve), but, the player who only has this serve will be serving probably 80% second serves. If the second serve is weak, good luck moving past the 3.0 or 3.5 levels.

The foundation for learning to serve well is to learn to hit spin serves first. Learning the right kind of spin...THEN adding the component of leaning in and hitting it relatively flatter, insures the quality of ************ acquisition, and the ability to actually hit big first serves with some consistency.

tennisdad65 · Oct 1, 2008

El Pelele said:
People here have something against flat serves and don't recommend them, but the pro's use them a lot no? Like last year's masters cup, Federer vs Nadal, Federer was down 0-30, and made 4 straight aces, and I'm pretty sure he made 2 or 3 flat aces.

I doubt Fed ever hits it flat.. First serve is slice topspin. Sampras hit 125 mph serves with topspin. Even Becker and Goran at 6-4 hit with some degree of spin on their first serves. Roddick comes closest to hitting it flat.

Toxicmilk · Oct 1, 2008

CoachingMastery said:
The foundation for learning to serve well is to learn to hit spin serves first. Learning the right kind of spin...THEN adding the component of leaning in and hitting it relatively flatter, insures the quality of ************ acquisition, and the ability to actually hit big first serves with some consistency.

I agree. Serving flatter just came easily to me after a long time of just spinning the ball in.

supertrex · Oct 1, 2008

I know a guy can hit a Flat serve using Pro staff 85 and hes only 5'3. And he can place that ball like hes 6'1. Its all about placement really and technique.

El Pelele · Oct 1, 2008

CoachingMastery said:
The issue of a "flat" serve must be taken in the context of its speed. Vic demonstrated a person with a string tied to the tip of a racquet held above the head, the player would have to be about 8 feet tall to get the straight string held taut, to land inside the service line.

It has been well documented that the so-called "flat" serves by the fastest serving pros has tremendous spin still associated with it. Sampras had, on average, around 2800 rpm's of spin on his 120mph first serve.

It is taught with ignorance in most cases, to encourage players to hit truly flat serves. Not only is this going to limit the speed of balls getting in, (because too flat, too fast, won't go in...thus having to back off the speed of a truly flat serve), but, the player who only has this serve will be serving probably 80% second serves. If the second serve is weak, good luck moving past the 3.0 or 3.5 levels.

The foundation for learning to serve well is to learn to hit spin serves first. Learning the right kind of spin...THEN adding the component of leaning in and hitting it relatively flatter, insures the quality of ************ acquisition, and the ability to actually hit big first serves with some consistency.

So how would you do to serve a "flat serve" with a lot of spin?

If you add more spin, then isn't it no longer a flat serve?

raiden031 · Oct 1, 2008

El Pelele said:
People here have something against flat serves and don't recommend them, but the pro's use them a lot no? Like last year's masters cup, Federer vs Nadal, Federer was down 0-30, and made 4 straight aces, and I'm pretty sure he made 2 or 3 flat aces.

I know that they do not recommend them much for those who don't have the skill, or technique, but if you actually practiced and spent time perfecting them, they'll become a deadly weapon.

I myself am 5'6, and I can serve flat serves, with a somewhat good %. I always use them for 1st serve, and if they don't go in, I have my back-up topspin serves, which are actually pretty good.

The only serve I have not yet learned is the slice lol.

Even with my height, and with pretty bad flat serve technique (because I don't get the chance to practice much, so it's not that good), I can still reel in many flat serves in matches, and aces too.

I agree. Any time I watch open level players, they aren't hitting kick or slice serves as their first serves. They are blasting flat serves. Obviously if hitting flat was a bad idea, advanced players wouldn't do it. I think its a mistake never to try to develop a flat first serve. As far as the OP's friend, I think he needs to learn a consistent topspin serve before trying to maser the flat serve, because players must be able to put the ball in play effectively and reliably at all times. But really nothing beats a well-placed hard flat serve at all levels of the game.

Nanshiki · Oct 1, 2008

I'm 5'10" and I can hit reasonably good flat serves depending on whether they're "on" at that time... but they always hit the service line, clear the net by only a few inches, and I get a few inches of air doing it...

I'm better with a plus-length racquet on flat serves. On topspin serves it matters a bit less. You really short guys should probably be playing with a 28 or even a 29" racquet.

Fed Kennedy · Oct 1, 2008

I saw del potro practicing at the US open. It looked like he was slapping the ball straight down. Really wierd looking. Then again, he's 6'6". That looked like a flat serve to me.
placement and consistency above all for the rest of us

Tikiman53 · Oct 1, 2008

I think flat serves are worth it, but not easy to be consistent with, especially for us mortals

. I'm 5'3, maybe almost 5'4, but I have a really good flat serve. I know being short like I am makes it hard, but if you can get good at it, it's worthwhile. TOday, I was serving against my coach, and I was ripping flat serves for service winners.

CoachingMastery · Oct 1, 2008

El Pelele said:
So how would you do to serve a "flat serve" with a lot of spin?

If you add more spin, then isn't it no longer a flat serve?

Among the top players, there are no FLAT serves...they all have a certain amount of spin. Roddick's serve at 140 has about 1500 rpms.

It would be nearly impossible to hit a 150 mph serve in without some spin.

So to answer your question, the so-called flat serves have much less spin than the typical kick/slice/hybrid serves you see the pros hit as their second serve.

By the way, the pros average somewhere around 4000 rpm's on their spin serves.

kelz · Oct 1, 2008

flat serves are stupid, if you're opponent's decent then they'd block it back. you need a slice first serve so it breaks away when it hits the court

[K]aotic · Oct 1, 2008

of course you can't hit a flat serve without decent technique. i'm 5'5" and i know my flat serve is a valuable weapon.

EndLy · Oct 1, 2008

i realized that it's almost impossible for me to hit a flat serve no matter how i gripped the racket so i started putting a lot more spin on my serves and consistency has gone way up and a lot more service winners or easy put aways after serving

El Pelele · Oct 1, 2008

kelz said:
flat serves are stupid, if you're opponent's decent then they'd block it back. you need a slice first serve so it breaks away when it hits the court

Lol, the only person who would say something like that, would be someone who can't hit flat serves, so he resents them.

They will block it back if they are slow, but do you think they'll hit a clear winner out of a well placed bullet? I think not.

The faster the serve is, the less time you'll have to act; you can get jammed, or simply watch it pass by, not to mention you can also hit a weak return, making it an easy put away for the other guy. You make it sound like it's easy to be aggressive with flat, fast serves, trust me, it ain't.

You don't see many first serve return winners from the pros, just a few actually.

When do you see the most of them? Out of second serves, where you have more time to prepare yourself.

El Pelele · Oct 1, 2008

CoachingMastery said:
Among the top players, there are no FLAT serves...they all have a certain amount of spin. Roddick's serve at 140 has about 1500 rpms.

It would be nearly impossible to hit a 150 mph serve in without some spin.

So to answer your question, the so-called flat serves have much less spin than the typical kick/slice/hybrid serves you see the pros hit as their second serve.

By the way, the pros average somewhere around 4000 rpm's on their spin serves.

So how would you say they hit those serves? I mean the racket path, contact and everything.

But, the type of spin you talk about which pros put on their flat serves, you're talking about sidespin right? not topspin?

CoachingMastery · Oct 1, 2008

El Pelele said:
So how would you say they hit those serves? I mean the racket path, contact and everything.

But, the type of spin you talk about which pros put on their flat serves, you're talking about sidespin right? not topspin?

It varies; Sampras hit 14 degrees above the equator hitting more hybrid spin than a guy like Rueseki who hit around 7 degrees above equator making it more slice. Sampras had a higher margin of error room because his ball had more topspin than Greg.

Most people can't see the action of the racquet at full speed. One must study the high speed footage to see the kind of spin being applied.

The reality is, when a player learns to hit with spin, then toss the ball more into the court, they will come "at" the ball more, increasing the swing path through the ball, but still with some action from pronation giving the ball some amount of slice and hybrid slice action.

Everyone here should not claim they know what is really happening until they study extremely high-speed footage of the pros.

Anyone with slower racquet head speed can always serve flat. They can't generate ball velocity to negate the downward pull of gravity on their serve.

For more advanced players, while a bomb serve is difficult to return when well placed, most top level players have little trouble returning flat serves when hit within reach.

The real answer to anyone wanting to know, you need racquet head speed, various swing paths for various spins, and know how to attack a ball by creating a toss that is more in the court. However, when most recreational players do this, they open up too early and can't hit with the optimal spin and speed.

Hey, its complicated!

[K]aotic · Oct 1, 2008

kelz said:
flat serves are stupid, if you're opponent's decent then they'd block it back. you need a slice first serve so it breaks away when it hits the court

its hard to block the ball when the ball is whizzing by you. also, if you block the ball, chances are you are popping it up... that means it gives the opponent time to set up for a nice shot.

El Pelele · Oct 1, 2008

CoachingMastery said:
It varies; Sampras hit 14 degrees above the equator hitting more hybrid spin than a guy like Rueseki who hit around 7 degrees above equator making it more slice. Sampras had a higher margin of error room because his ball had more topspin than Greg.

Most people can't see the action of the racquet at full speed. One must study the high speed footage to see the kind of spin being applied.

The reality is, when a player learns to hit with spin, then toss the ball more into the court, they will come "at" the ball more, increasing the swing path through the ball, but still with some action from pronation giving the ball some amount of slice and hybrid slice action.

Everyone here should not claim they know what is really happening until they study extremely high-speed footage of the pros.

Anyone with slower racquet head speed can always serve flat. They can't generate ball velocity to negate the downward pull of gravity on their serve.

For more advanced players, while a bomb serve is difficult to return when well placed, most top level players have little trouble returning flat serves when hit within reach.

The real answer to anyone wanting to know, you need racquet head speed, various swing paths for various spins, and know how to attack a ball by creating a toss that is more in the court. However, when most recreational players do this, they open up too early and can't hit with the optimal spin and speed.

Hey, its complicated!

Damn right it is!

Hey, also, does pronation happen even if you don't think about it? Should you focus on "pronating"? what's the deal here?

GuyClinch · Oct 2, 2008

That's a question open to debate. I have had some succesful lessons where pros have worked on things like the finish or the wrist "snap" but folks here will tell you that's all wrong.

When your serving though you don't have to think about when you get it down.. I found though that the real key to "advanced' serves for me was the idea of really standing sideways and learning to hit slice serves swinging across the ball. That really clicked for me and now the serve is my best shot. The rest of my game still sucks though. Heh.

bet · Oct 2, 2008

Mbautista said:
I let my friends know when they have spinach stuck in their teeth. I'm not by any means trying to rub it in just for the sake of being right!! It's just one friend trying to help another out, what's so wrong about that?

I didnt' say it was wrong. I said, you have let him know your opinion, he has told you his. He has the right to work on what he chooses and play the way he chooses. Why go on an internet message board to find things to say to convince him?

The worst that can happen is that he won't play to his best potential. So what? He may learn something from that and then want to change. Or he may be perfectly happy playing that way. He isn't dying, you aren't his coach. Why do you care SO much? Every club player I know has flaws in his technique or strategy, if they ask, I tell them about it. If they are friends, I might let them know. Once I have, it's up to them. I can't make them take advice, nor would I want to! I don't think about their games off the court and ponder how I can make them change!

Even when I work as a coach, I can't make anybody listen.

So, I'm simply asking why you would be this worried about it. I think you want to hear people say that you're right! That isn't a bad thing in itself, everybody likes validation...but it's a bit silly to be asking "what should I say to my friend????" Don't you think?

bet · Oct 2, 2008

And to answer the question. It really isn't THAT complicated at a certain level.

Flat serves are worth it, if you get enough benefit from them to outweigh the negatives. Regardless of your serve speed, height or consistency.

This basically involves 2 questions:
1.how many free points or set-ups do I get from my flat serve. (or at least how often and how much advantage do I get starting the point this way)

vs

2.do i get hurt on my 2nd serve

If your friend double faults enough or loses because he pats in a 2nd serve like you claim, then he will eventually learn for himself that this doesn't get him the result he wants.

orangettecoleman · Oct 2, 2008

i hit kick serves exclusively because it's high percentage so i can really beat the tar out of the ball and not worry about double faulting too often.

SlapShot · Oct 2, 2008

raiden031 said:
I agree. Any time I watch open level players, they aren't hitting kick or slice serves as their first serves. They are blasting flat serves. Obviously if hitting flat was a bad idea, advanced players wouldn't do it. I think its a mistake never to try to develop a flat first serve. As far as the OP's friend, I think he needs to learn a consistent topspin serve before trying to maser the flat serve, because players must be able to put the ball in play effectively and reliably at all times. But really nothing beats a well-placed hard flat serve at all levels of the game.

At the open level, it's not truly "flat" - there is still a degree of topspin imparted by the swing path. I believe that this is what Dave (CoachingMastery) calls a "hybrid" serve - it's very common at higher levels of tennis.

NamRanger · Oct 2, 2008

No serve is truly flat. It's like the same concept of a groundstroke. The harder you hit, the more spin you have to put on the ball to keep it in.

CoachingMastery · Oct 2, 2008

El Pelele said:
Damn right it is!

Hey, also, does pronation happen even if you don't think about it? Should you focus on "pronating"? what's the deal here?

Pronation is nearly as automatic as anything if you use the right grip and swing path. I've seen players taught to intentionally pronate, and it is comical because this attempt makes most players hit the wrong side of the ball! A right handed player who pronates intentionally, will usually hit the ball to the right instead of to the left!

Even if you try to intentionally slice the outside of the ball with no pronation, (carving around the ball like pealing an orange with your racquet strings), you will still pronate in most cases. (There are exceptions, no question.)

Learn to brush the ball while hitting with the right grip, swing path and you will pronate naturally as you start swinging harder. (Something some pros need to learn when teaching the serve!)

El Pelele · Oct 2, 2008

CoachingMastery said:
Pronation is nearly as automatic as anything if you use the right grip and swing path. I've seen players taught to intentionally pronate, and it is comical because this attempt makes most players hit the wrong side of the ball! A right handed player who pronates intentionally, will usually hit the ball to the right instead of to the left!

Even if you try to intentionally slice the outside of the ball with no pronation, (carving around the ball like pealing an orange with your racquet strings), you will still pronate in most cases. (There are exceptions, no question.)

Learn to brush the ball while hitting with the right grip, swing path and you will pronate naturally as you start swinging harder. (Something some pros need to learn when teaching the serve!)

Oh ok, it's just that, sometimes I don't really know if I pronate, because, sometimes I want to direct the serve in one direction (a flat serve) and I think I imagine to keep the racket in the same position throughout the entire swing, like attempting to direct it better or something, but who knows.

I always use continental for flat serves, and eastsern backhand for all the other ones.

The main problem I've been having with my serve is, that I think I toss the ball too low, so I tend to rush hitting the ball, and also I don't think I catch it high enough. The toss is so important.

CoachingMastery · Oct 2, 2008

El Pelele said:
Oh ok, it's just that, sometimes I don't really know if I pronate, because, sometimes I want to direct the serve in one direction (a flat serve) and I think I imagine to keep the racket in the same position throughout the entire swing, like attempting to direct it better or something, but who knows.

I always use continental for flat serves, and eastsern backhand for all the other ones.

The main problem I've been having with my serve is, that I think I toss the ball too low, so I tend to rush hitting the ball, and also I don't think I catch it high enough. The toss is so important.

El, sounds like you are recognizing the points to work on. I see a lot of players taught a low toss and end up rushing their serve or hitting it low. But, the toss is somewhat dependent on your wind up size. A long take back like Fed or Sampras will require a higher toss; a short wind up like a Roddick will use a lower toss.

I'm sure you are pronating if you are using a continental grip on your main serves. While I seldom not recommend using a more open grip like an easter backhand grip, (more closed at the top of your swing), it can open the eyes of players in terms of generating spin.

However, you might try do do what 99% of pros do; they open the wrist up (turning it more palm up in the typical ready position), which mimics the eastern backhand grip's racquet orientation to the arm. By using the continental in this position, it is easier to generate more spin but still gain racquet head speed through the ball too. People who use an eastern backhand grip tend to get way over the top of the ball at the top of the swing putting some strain on the forearm and wrist.

Most players, as they develop, tend to move away from the eastern backhand, more towards the continental. But, that said, I've still seen a few really good players serve with a fairly eastern backhand grip and do very well; so it can be taken to a high level too.

El Pelele · Oct 2, 2008

CoachingMastery said:
El, sounds like you are recognizing the points to work on. I see a lot of players taught a low toss and end up rushing their serve or hitting it low. But, the toss is somewhat dependent on your wind up size. A long take back like Fed or Sampras will require a higher toss; a short wind up like a Roddick will use a lower toss.

I'm sure you are pronating if you are using a continental grip on your main serves. While I seldom not recommend using a more open grip like an easter backhand grip, (more closed at the top of your swing), it can open the eyes of players in terms of generating spin.

However, you might try do do what 99% of pros do; they open the wrist up (turning it more palm up in the typical ready position), which mimics the eastern backhand grip's racquet orientation to the arm. By using the continental in this position, it is easier to generate more spin but still gain racquet head speed through the ball too. People who use an eastern backhand grip tend to get way over the top of the ball at the top of the swing putting some strain on the forearm and wrist.

Most players, as they develop, tend to move away from the eastern backhand, more towards the continental. But, that said, I've still seen a few really good players serve with a fairly eastern backhand grip and do very well; so it can be taken to a high level too.

Hmm, I thought many pros used the eastern backhand grip? I actually read that that grip is best to develop or generate more spin no? Like, they recommend it for the slice, twist, and topspin serves.

So, most pros use only the continental for all their serves?

I always think that, for your second serve, your opponent already knows that you're going to use a spin serve anyways, so why try to conceal your grip?

NamRanger · Oct 2, 2008

El Pelele said:
Hmm, I thought many pros used the eastern backhand grip? I actually read that that grip is best to develop or generate more spin no? Like, they recommend it for the slice, twist, and topspin serves.

So, most pros use only the continental for all their serves?

I always think that, for your second serve, your opponent already knows that you're going to use a spin serve anyways, so why try to conceal your grip?

The continental grip is more versatile and you can generate about the same amount of spin.

CoachingMastery · Oct 2, 2008

El Pelele said:
Hmm, I thought many pros used the eastern backhand grip? I actually read that that grip is best to develop or generate more spin no? Like, they recommend it for the slice, twist, and topspin serves.

So, most pros use only the continental for all their serves?

I always think that, for your second serve, your opponent already knows that you're going to use a spin serve anyways, so why try to conceal your grip?

It is a common misconception that some pros use an eastern backhand grip. There are some who are between the continental and eastern backhand, just as Boris Becker was between a continental and eastern forehand. (Although, there are still those who insist that he used an full eastern forehand...but, like I mentioned in an earlier post, players actually change the wrist position to be more open or more closed which makes it look like such grips...but isn't usually.)

I believe Djokovic uses one of the closest eastern backhand grips I've seen in a long time.

In response to the question of concealing, sure, it isn't critical you have to disguise it. But, the pros don't really care one way or the other. They can hit a number of serves from the same grip anyway. (Slice, hybrid, topspin, flat all can be hit effectively from a continental foundation.)

Yes, the eastern backhand grip, as I've said, does provide more natural occuring spin for someone who has not tried it. But, this same spin can be attained for the most part using a continental grip with more speed and action by advanced players. (For most.)

El Pelele · Oct 2, 2008

CoachingMastery said:
It is a common misconception that some pros use an eastern backhand grip. There are some who are between the continental and eastern backhand, just as Boris Becker was between a continental and eastern forehand. (Although, there are still those who insist that he used an full eastern forehand...but, like I mentioned in an earlier post, players actually change the wrist position to be more open or more closed which makes it look like such grips...but isn't usually.)

I believe Djokovic uses one of the closest eastern backhand grips I've seen in a long time.

In response to the question of concealing, sure, it isn't critical you have to disguise it. But, the pros don't really care one way or the other. They can hit a number of serves from the same grip anyway. (Slice, hybrid, topspin, flat all can be hit effectively from a continental foundation.)

Yes, the eastern backhand grip, as I've said, does provide more natural occuring spin for someone who has not tried it. But, this same spin can be attained for the most part using a continental grip with more speed and action by advanced players. (For most.)

So do you recommend sticking with a continental all the way?

I actually found out today, that the grip I use for flat serves, is actually in between both eastern bh and continental, my base knuckle is on both, but more in the eastern bh side, it just feels better; if a grab a full continental, it feels like too eastern fh and my wrist doesn't feel that flexible.

kelz · Oct 2, 2008

El Pelele said:
Lol, the only person who would say something like that, would be someone who can't hit flat serves, so he resents them.

They will block it back if they are slow, but do you think they'll hit a clear winner out of a well placed bullet? I think not.

The faster the serve is, the less time you'll have to act; you can get jammed, or simply watch it pass by, not to mention you can also hit a weak return, making it an easy put away for the other guy. You make it sound like it's easy to be aggressive with flat, fast serves, trust me, it ain't.

You don't see many first serve return winners from the pros, just a few actually.

When do you see the most of them? Out of second serves, where you have more time to prepare yourself.

It's true, I can't hit flat serves. I'm 5'6 also.

orangettecoleman said:
i hit kick serves exclusively because it's high percentage so i can really beat the tar out of the ball and not worry about double faulting too often.

Do you slow down the second serve? Or just spin it in with the same conviction as the first?

Flat serves, worth it?

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