Extent of racket drop

J011yroger · Mar 16, 2009

Djokovicfan4life said:
OT mode:

I just watched your "tiebreakers" video and you seem to dominate the drop shot game! You had poor blue shirt man on a string, it seems. Of course, I understand that video editing probably played a role in that video as well.

I think I hit 4 maybe 5 droppers, and won all but one of the points, but my buddy is quick as hell, and if I do it at the wrong time, he gets to it, like in an instant. So I try to keep him pinned to the back wall.

I edited out the one I botched and he won the point.

I believe my exact words were "WHAT THE F*** ARE YOU THINKING?!? USE YOUR HEAD FOR SOMETHING OTHER THAN A F'ING HAT RACK!!!".

Djokovicfan4life said:
I noticed in your last response you said that you rarely bring out the flat bomb, which I also noticed in your vids. Not that it matters when they all kick up over blue's head, as he pointed out halfway through the video. Better margin for error too, resulting in less of the double faulting blues.

Ya, no need to bring the bomb, especially on clay, and my arm thanks me.

Do not underestimate my ability to double fault!

I can double fault like a champion.

When things are going well, they go really well. When things go bad, they go really bad.

I am pretty good at managing DFs as long as I have a full nights sleep. If I only get a few hours sleep, it can be really bad, I have trouble concentrating, and I put the ball up, and kind of lose it, and let it drop too far before I hit it. Or if my back locks up, it just says "J, you can try to serve if you want, but I am not going to let you" And sometimes I try, and then I fail.

J

Djokovicfan4life · Mar 16, 2009

My back doesn't cause me to double fault. It's that pesky toss that gets me.

"Go up, ball! NO, NOT THAT WAY!"

And yet, I just can't bring myself to catch bad tosses. Stupid? Very.

J011yroger · Mar 16, 2009

Djokovicfan4life said:
You desperately need some bulk, Jo11y!

Beef cake, baby.

I do pretty tough off court training, so I will have that covered, don't need to add any bulk though. Get stronger, faster, better balanced.

I'll put up some shirtless pics from a training session once it warms up. I got 99 problems, but being out of shape isn't one.

J

J011yroger · Mar 16, 2009

Djokovicfan4life said:
My back doesn't cause me to double fault. It's that pesky toss that gets me.

"Go up, ball! NO, NOT THAT WAY!"

And yet, I just can't bring myself to catch bad tosses. Stupid? Very.

Do you choose where you are going to serve while you are bouncing the ball?

Do you visualize where you want the toss to be, before you begin your motion?

Do you hold the ball in the tips of your fingers like an egg sitting on a stand?

Do you keep your arm straight and put the ball up with no spin?

J

J011yroger · Mar 16, 2009

5263 said:
Jolly is using a very demanding combination.

I actually serve bigger with my frames than with a PDR+. Or most anything else I have tried.

Now I am not saying it is the racquet, it is probably because of my timing being set to the frame I use every day.

But my goal isn't so much to put up the number, or compare myself to others. I just want to be able to get the most out of what my body can do.

I know I won't ever be throwing down 144mph Roddick bombs, but I also don't want to be leaving something on the table. I am sure I will be quite content with wherever I end up, as long as I feel that I am doing the most that my body is capable of. No matter if it is 115 or 135.

J

J011yroger · Mar 16, 2009

P.S. I have strung from 56-70, full poly, hybrids, multis, and gut, and don't think any of that made any appreciable difference in serve speed to me.

Would gladly put it to the test in the spring. Would be a cool experiment.

J

Djokovicfan4life · Mar 16, 2009

J011yroger said:
I do pretty tough off court training, so I will have that covered, don't need to add any bulk though. Get stronger, faster, better balanced.

I'll put up some shirtless pics from a training session once it warms up. I got 99 problems, but being out of shape isn't one.

J

I know. Just messing around.

I have to say, I wouldn't mind being built like Verdasco though. And I mean that in a totally gay way.

J011yroger · Mar 17, 2009

Djokovicfan4life said:
I have to say, I wouldn't mind being built like Verdasco though. And I mean that in a totally gay way.

Agree 100% Dude was in some kind of shape in Oz.

J

larry10s · Mar 17, 2009

J011yroger said:
Nope, there is something wrong with my flat delivery keeping me out of the 130's, I can feel it. I can hit a hard topspin serve in the 110-115mph range, but can't get out of the low/mid 120's with the flat ball.

J

wish i had those problems jolly. lol

J011yroger · Mar 17, 2009

larry10s said:
wish i had those problems jolly. lol

lol, don't worry, I have enough other problems that make up for it

J

Slicendicer · Mar 17, 2009

J011yroger said:
Dunno if you are interested but here are points from tiebreakers we played after I shot the high speed. Probably serving around 60% effort, and all hard spin serves. I know it is tough to judge speed on low qual video, but you sound like you have played enough T that you have an idea of how fast the ball is moving by the sound it makes. Watch how high the kick is on most of them. My friend (in blue) is around 5'10" for reference.

Obviously I am the tall good looking guy in white. And yea, I know I desperately need a tan.

http://vimeo.com/3657159

J

Yeah, well you're playing on clay court... I can kick a 60 MPH serve on clay 8 ft I think. Kick serves usually jump higher with less pace.

Slicendicer · Mar 17, 2009

J011yroger said:
Do you choose where you are going to serve while you are bouncing the ball?

Do you visualize where you want the toss to be, before you begin your motion?

Do you hold the ball in the tips of your fingers like an egg sitting on a stand?

Do you keep your arm straight and put the ball up with no spin?

J

Yes. Yes. No. No.

Djokovicfan4life · Mar 17, 2009

Slicendicer said:
Yeah, well you're playing on clay court... I can kick a 60 MPH serve on clay 8 ft I think. Kick serves usually jump higher with less pace.

Jo11y can kick them over the 12 foot backdrop, with video evidence, so yeah.

J011yroger · Mar 17, 2009

Slicendicer said:
Yeah, well you're playing on clay court... I can kick a 60 MPH serve on clay 8 ft I think. Kick serves usually jump higher with less pace.

Ummmm... I am not trying to prove anyting, just saying, this is how I serve if you are curious. Sure there are lots of people who serve better, worse, or different than me.

J

Slicendicer · Mar 17, 2009

J011yroger said:
Ummmm... I am not trying to prove anyting, just saying, this is how I serve if you are curious. Sure there are lots of people who serve better, worse, or different than me.

J

Thats cool... I can flatten a serve with pace too, just I don't think most players who think they serve 120 MPH, serve 120 MPH.

Tonight I kicked serve on a hard court like 10 ft, I couldn't do it twice, but the speed was maybe like 70 MPH.

I serve harder than every player I play against, and I don't think I serve over 100 MPH... so I just don't buy into the "speed of serve cult".

Jolly... me and you... we're cool.

Slicendicer · Mar 17, 2009

Djokovicfan4life said:
Jo11y can kick them over the 12 foot backdrop, with video evidence, so yeah.

An 8-10 ft kick serve on clay court is routine.

Djokovicfan4life · Mar 18, 2009

Thanks for the update, Big Ben.

Slicendicer · Mar 18, 2009

Djokovicfan4life said:
Thanks for the update, Big Ben.

No problem... I used to practice with a few pro players that served 115-130 MPH... I don;t think you realize how fast that is. It would be extremely rare for a 4.0-4.5 club player to serve over 120 MPH.

I hit with Roddick in December after he won the Open... dude you have no idea what a kick serve is until you see a true 115 MPH spin serve from across the net. So if I'm skeptical of a 4.5 player saying he hits routine 2nd spin serves at 115 MPH... or a 14 y.o. 3.0 player serving +100 MPH... I hope you understand.

Julieta · Mar 18, 2009

Slicendicer said:
No problem... I used to practice with a few pro players that served 115-130 MPH... I don;t think you realize how fast that is. It would be extremely rare for a 4.0-4.5 club player to serve over 120 MPH.

I hit with Roddick in December after he won the Open... dude you have no idea what a kick serve is until you see a true 115 MPH spin serve from across the net. So if I'm skeptical of a 4.5 player saying he hits routine 2nd spin serves at 115 MPH... or a 14 y.o. 3.0 player serving +100 MPH... I hope you understand.

I'm with you on this. It is all a matter of frame of reference.

J011yroger · Mar 21, 2009

gzhpcu said:
If you are in doubt as to the extent of your pronation, do you have any frame after impact? The racket face should be facing outward.

Last night was the first night I tried to start feeling out the flat ball. It is still about 2 weeks away from active duty, but I snapped a few frames out of the vid on two of my flatter balls.

If you watch my latest vid these serves are at the end. Memory card ran out just as I was starting to get warmed up serving so there aren't too many. Swachime!

J

J011yroger · Mar 21, 2009

J

gzhpcu · Mar 21, 2009

Bit hard to see because fuzzy, but it certainly looks like you have very nice pronation. Nice style overall.

Just a question: seems to me that for a flat serve you are going a lot more up than forward. Ever try putting the ball up a bit more forward, so as to get more body lean into it? Think it would increase your power...

J011yroger · Mar 21, 2009

gzhpcu said:
Bit hard to see because fuzzy, but it certainly looks like you have very nice pronation. Nice style overall.

Just a question: seems to me that for a flat serve you are going a lot more up than forward. Ever try putting the ball up a bit more forward, so as to get more body lean into it? Think it would increase your power...

Ya, I have tried it both ways. I was feeling out the toss last night, but we were both pretty out of it.

I am moving it from straight ahead, to just to the right, and near the baseline and into the court.

Like I said it is going to take me a good two weeks, it all feels pretty vague right now.

Last summer when I was really cracking it, I served the biggest flat balls with the toss straight in front of me, and not terribly far into the court.

Things go well when I go up. I think UP about everything in the serve.

A little more time, and a little more temp, and I will really start to lean into it and see what I have.

I am just a bit chickenhearted right now, as I don't want to hurt my arm going for too much too soon.

J

J011yroger · Mar 21, 2009

J011yroger said:
If you watch my latest vid these serves are at the end. Memory card ran out just as I was starting to get warmed up serving so there aren't too many. Swachime!

Here is the link.

http://www.vimeo.com/3789362

I know it isn't pretty, Friday night at 11pm after a long work week, and we were both out of it.

J

larry10s · Mar 21, 2009

getting the thumb pointed to the ground ie complete pronation is very important for a powerful serve. in the pics you have shown your arm is still extended you have not gotten into the "high elbow bent arm" in this pic. i know the thread focuses on this look whith a commanding argument for it i still think but cant prove that the complete pronation with the thum and racquet pointed at the court ie completely turned over IS whats important. the high elbow imho has to do with when the arm relaxes and starts to bend. if you look at aggassi for example he never quite gets to that extreme position.heres your pic jolly i am referring to vvvvvvv

larry10s · Mar 21, 2009

J011yroger said:
J

arm straight but great pronation

larry10s · Mar 21, 2009

Agassi does not have the high elbow position...
tried to post his pic i get these 2 threads mixed up. the other thing thats important is your palm need to face the right side fence for full pronation

larry10s · Mar 21, 2009

look at the sampras / gonzales pics (it did not copy/paste for me) GORGEOUS PRONATION!!!!

J011yroger · Mar 21, 2009

larry10s said:
arm straight but great pronation

Going to investigate the high elbow thing in the coming weeks.

Have you looked at Safin, Fish, Delic, Querry, Guccione, Lubicic?

J

gzhpcu · Mar 21, 2009

Here is Safin:

oly_full.getty-71508231ca005_countrywide_c_5_13_29_pm.jpg

J011yroger · Mar 21, 2009

^^^ What do you think? His arm/elbow is still high, but the arm is straight without the forearm pointing down?

J

gzhpcu · Mar 21, 2009

Safin has a great serve. He does not have that "broken arm" finish. A finish like you have. Kind of baffling... He also had heavy spin on the ball... Is having a straight arm finish an indication of better extension and accuracy?

I wonder (yes, I know: apples and oranges

), if this whole business is not somewhat akin to the forehand issues of whether to hit the ball with a straight arm or a bent arm?

gzhpcu · Mar 22, 2009

Brian Gordon, who has done so great biomechanical analysis of the serve, posted this picture of his in another thread:

which is another representation of the one I referred to earlier:

Evidence of the lag in the movement and really late acceleration prior to impact.

gzhpcu · Mar 22, 2009

Brian Gordon made some very good comments in a thread "How can I improve my serve":

Like nearly any individual component of the serve, one would be hard pressed to show correlation to contact racquet speed, over a variety of different servers, because so many other factors are combined in the process.

It is a little bit like saying my 64 VW bug and my Ferrari both have four wheels but that does not correlate to the speed they can clock. It disregards the engine.

Seems to me the serve is no different. More important than the depth of the drop is the conditions of the body and racquet at that instant, and the muscular engine that will take the racquet to contact.

That said, for a given engine, the longer the distance over which it can exert its drive (deeper drop), the faster it will ultimately drive the machine.

For the sake of discussion I would suggest that the only way to assess the correlation of drop depth to contact racquet speed (and therefore its importance) would be to remove the confounding variables (the engine).

Of course, this is impossible, but if Pete Sampras could hit two serves keeping all else constant, but in one he uses full racquet drop, and in the other he uses 3/4 of the drop, which serve would show the highest contact racquet speed?

larry10s · Mar 22, 2009

gzhpcu said:
Here is Safin:

but look at his palm facing the side fence. complete pronation. with no science to back it up but as a gestault of my reading i beleive that is more important than the "broken arm" finish. i wish if my arm was broken i could serve like sampras.lol

larry10s · Mar 22, 2009

gzhpcu said:
Brian Gordon made some very good comments in a thread "How can I improve my serve":

seems like brian thinks a deeper drop is better.

gzhpcu · Mar 22, 2009

larry10s said:
seems like brian thinks a deeper drop is better.

Yes, and I think it is what you alluded to somewhere else, that it is an indication of inherent biomechanical flexibility coupled with getting all aspects of the kinetic chain correct.

J011yroger · Mar 22, 2009

gzhpcu said:
Safin has a great serve. He does not have that "broken arm" finish. A finish like you have. Kind of baffling... He also had heavy spin on the ball... Is having a straight arm finish an indication of better extension and accuracy?

Boy. . . this looks mighty similar to what I have going on with the exception of sliding the back foot. What do you guys think? I can put up pics to compare if you choose a few out of the sequence.

J

J011yroger · Mar 22, 2009

J

J011yroger · Mar 22, 2009

Looks perliously close to an eastern FH grip from Marat.

J

gzhpcu · Mar 22, 2009

In your post #138, Marat gets an awful lot of strong shoulder over shoulder movement in his serve. He is also leaning off to the side quite a lot for what looks like a heavy twist serve...

larry10s · Mar 23, 2009

J011yroger said:
J

look at the amount of pronation . i cant get away from that core fundamental

gzhpcu · Mar 23, 2009

larry10s said:
look at the amount of pronation . i cant get away from that core fundamental

Right. It is a sign of a biomechanically correct and natural non-stress movement for a heavy spin serve. Of itself, it does not significantly contribute to racket speed (about 5% according to Brian Gordon...)

Julieta · Mar 23, 2009

J011yroger said:
Boy. . . this looks mighty similar to what I have going on with the exception of sliding the back foot. What do you guys think? I can put up pics to compare if you choose a few out of the sequence.

J

If you have a pic of your contact point I think that would be interesting. I cant see it in these (kind of fuzzy due to the lighting) but it looks like it might be out to the right, lined up with or perhaps to the right of your right foot. Is that where you typically make contact or is that just the way your pics look due to the lighting?

J011yroger · Mar 23, 2009

Julieta said:
If you have a pic of your contact point I think that would be interesting. I cant see it in these (kind of fuzzy due to the lighting) but it looks like it might be out to the right, lined up with or perhaps to the right of your right foot. Is that where you typically make contact or is that just the way your pics look due to the lighting?

From a few pages ago, in this very thread.

J011yroger said:
J

J

J011yroger · Mar 23, 2009

J011yroger said:
J

Or were these the ones you were saying were not clear?

I have a bunch more, but from the bottom of the drop to contact is tough to find any sort of clear frame.

These were shot in 210fps.

J

gzhpcu · Mar 23, 2009

J011yroger, congratulations, looks very nice. Would you happen to have any from the side as well? Would be interested to see the impact point...

Julieta · Mar 24, 2009

J011yroger said:
Or were these the ones you were saying were not clear?

I have a bunch more, but from the bottom of the drop to contact is tough to find any sort of clear frame.

These were shot in 210fps.

J

Thanks, I didnt see that last one in any of the earlier posts, sorry.

Is your shoulder okay now? Any recent problems?

J011yroger · Mar 24, 2009

gzhpcu said:
J011yroger, congratulations, looks very nice. Would you happen to have any from the side as well? Would be interested to see the impact point...

I don't have any serves. Would it be best from a front 3/4 angle, or straight on from the side?

It is going to be cold this week, but if it warms up next week I will gladly shoot some.

High speed just comes out too dark indoors, which is why I wore all white.

J

J011yroger · Mar 24, 2009

FYI that particular serve was a 2nd out wide to the BH.

J

Extent of racket drop

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