Djokovic has top5 win % on all surfaces

[RaulRamirez]

He couldn't seperate himself from 2015 Fed until the old man lost his legs.

You act as if the "old man" suddenly - after two tiebreakers (and after a straight set win in the semis over Murray) - suddenly lost all movement and resolve in sets 3 and 4. At what point did his mind and body become old? Honestly, in an effort to, supposedly, prop up Fed's legacy, so many Fedfans need to exaggerate how old and relatively ineffective Roger was 2, 3, 5, even 10 years ago.

One of the great things about Roger is how competitive, to put it mildly, he has been throughout his career. His passion, talent and desire is one of the things I really admire. He'd be embarrassed and insulted by excuses that are supposedly made on his behalf.

(You are generally pretty fair-minded in your approach, but as a tennis fan - even if I'm not a Fedfan, per se, this really bothers me. And I get that on balance, a 28-year-old man should be in better shape than a 34-year-old man....but they're in the WC finals, and the 34-year-old may be the best all-time on Center Court.)

 

[Meles]

Win percentage in the Open Era:

1) Djokovic is #1 on hard, #4 on grass, #5 on clay --> average position 3.3
2) Federer is #1 on grass, #3 on hard, #13 on clay --> average position 5.7
3) Borg is #2 on clay, #3 on grass, #14 on hard --> average position 6.3
/ Connors is #4 on hard, #7 on clay, #8 on grass --> average position 6.3
5) Laver is #2 on hard, #7 on grass, #15 on clay --> average position 8.0
6) Nadal is #1 on clay, #10 on hard, #15 on grass --> average position 8.7
7) Lendl is #3 on clay, #5 on hard, #22 on grass --> average position 10.0
8) McEnroe is #2 on grass, #6 on hard, #23 on clay --> average position 10.3
9) Rosewall is #4 on clay, #11 on grass, #20 on hard --> average position 11.7
10) Agassi is #8 on hard, #20 on clay, #28 on grass --> average position 18.7

If we add up hard, clay, and grass Elo career ranking:
Federe 2, 8, 1
Nole 1, 4, 5
Nada 5, 1, 12
Ivan 4, 3, 14
Borg, 2, 2, 30

If we add up the three scores.
Federe 2637 + 2450 + 2547
Nole 2670 + 2537 + 2504 (Nole greaterer)

Rank	Country	Name	Hard Elo Rating	Date
1	SRB	Novak Djokovic	2670	01-08-2016
2	SUI	Roger Federer	2637	05-03-2007
3	USA	Pete Sampras	2524	03-03-1997
4	USA	Ivan Lendl	2513	19-10-1987
5	ESP	Rafael Nadal	2506	09-09-2013
6	USA	Andre Agassi	2500	21-08-1995
7	GBR	Andy Murray	2490	21-11-2016
8	AUS	Rod Laver	2483	29-03-1971
9	USA	John McEnroe	2455	19-08-1985
10	SWE	Stefan Edberg	2430	14-09-1992
11	SWE	Mats Wilander	2421	12-09-1988
12	USA	Jim Courier	2415	08-03-1993
13	USA	Jimmy Connors	2410	02-04-1984

Rank	Country	Name	Clay Elo Rating	Date
1	ESP	Rafael Nadal	2668	10-06-2013
2	SWE	Bjorn Borg	2638	21-06-1980
3	USA	Ivan Lendl	2540	16-05-1988
4	SRB	Novak Djokovic	2537	06-06-2016
5	ARG	Guillermo Vilas	2508	02-01-1978
6	AUT	Thomas Muster	2458	29-04-1996
7	ARG	Jose Luis Clerc	2454	13-10-1981
8	USA	Jimmy Connors	2450	13-08-1979
8	SUI	Roger Federer	2450	29-09-2009
10	AUS	Ken Rosewall	2433	27-07-1970
11	SWE	Mats Wilander	2432	20-07-1987
12	GBR	Andy Murray	2415	06-06-2016

 

[socallefty]

Average win percentage of Big3 outside clay:

2020 - 86.98
2019 - 86.00
2017 - 85.23
2018 - 84.94
2011 - 84.66
2012 - 84.46
2015 - 84.04
2013 - 83.97
2014 - 83.92
2010 - 82.26
2008 - 81.02
2009 - 80.45
2007 - 80.34
2006 - 79.15
2016 - 76.68
2005 - 76.41

The older they get, the higher their win percentage on fast courts gets.

Do you have the stats including clay? They seem pretty dominating on clay also in the last few years.

 

[NatF]

So you think 07/08 Nadal or/and 07/08 Fed in the finals could finish it before 5 sets ? You made the cutoff at 10 final i think.

I was talking mostly since to include the Djokovic era, I think 2007/2008/2009 Fed were all similar in level, slightly lesser each year. Good chance of five sets all around.

You act as if the "old man" suddenly - after two tiebreakers (and after a straight set win in the semis over Murray) - suddenly lost all movement and resolve in sets 3 and 4. At what point did his mind and body become old? Honestly, in an effort to, supposedly, prop up Fed's legacy, so many Fedfans need to exaggerate how old and relatively ineffective Roger was 2, 3, 5, even 10 years ago.

One of the great things about Roger is how competitive, to put it mildly, he has been throughout his career. His passion, talent and desire is one of the things I really admire. He'd be embarrassed and insulted by excuses that are supposedly made on his behalf.

(You are generally pretty fair-minded in your approach, but as a tennis fan - even if I'm not a Fedfan, per se, this really bothers me. And I get that on balance, a 28-year-old man should be in better shape than a 34-year-old man....but they're in the WC finals, and the 34-year-old may be the best all-time on Center Court.)

Relax, old man was meant to be tongue in cheek. Maybe I should have used an emoji.

And BTW many Nadal and Djokovic fans downplay his actual decline (and his opponents in his best years) in an effort to talk up their favs. It cuts both ways.

Fed definitely dipped his play in sets 3 and sets 4. His straight setter with Murray was about three hours IIRC not a terribly short match, a 34 year old losing a little elasticity in his legs after over two hours of intense play isn't that weird. For whatever reason in 2015 I feel like Fed's conditioning wasn't that great, even in 2014 I felt like he competed better physically. Maybe Djokovic made him run more?

You also misread what I was talking about anyway, I was not making excuses for why Federer lost I was simply pointing that out 2015 Djokovic while very very good will not be able to distance himself from better versions of Federer so easily like he did 2015.

 

[RS]

I was talking mostly since to include the Djokovic era, I think 2007/2008/2009 Fed were all similar in level, slightly lesser each year. Good chance of five sets all around.

6-4 4-6 7-6 (7-5) , 7-6 (9-7)
6-3 6-7 (10-12) , 7-6 (7-1) , 4-6 , 6-4 vs post prime Hewitt

 

[NatF]

6-4 4-6 7-6 (7-5) , 7-6 (9-7)
6-3 6-7 (10-12) , 7-6 (7-1) , 4-6 , 6-4 vs post prime Hewitt

Better than losing a set to Gulbis lol. Do I need to share the scorelines of Nadal 2007?

 

[Beckerserve]

Federer is 1st on Grass and 3rd on Hard ,
Djokovic is 1st on hard and 4th on Grass .

This is why they deserve weeks at no.1 record and are so far ahead of everyone in terms of consistency across surfaces .
Legend stuff

To be GOAT one needs multiple Majors on all surfaces across the Big 3 Majors One player has that. Its neither Federer or Djokovic

 

[Beckerserve]

The moment you bring in all the courts into picture , you can see how Fed and Djokovic stand out in comparison to Nadal.

Nadal 3-1 Federer AO
Nadal 2-1 Djokovic USO
Nadal 7-1 Djokovic FO
Nadal 6-0 Federer FO
The above is why Nadal.is GOAT. By a mile.

 

[RS]

Better than losing a set to Gulbis lol. Do I need to share the scorelines of Nadal 2007?

List Nadal scorelines if you want.

Murray of 09 is not considered contender for Wim titles in others years as well .....

 

[socallefty]

Average win percentage of Big3 outside clay:

2020 - 86.98
2019 - 86.00
2017 - 85.23
2018 - 84.94
2011 - 84.66
2012 - 84.46
2015 - 84.04
2013 - 83.97
2014 - 83.92
2010 - 82.26
2008 - 81.02
2009 - 80.45
2007 - 80.34
2006 - 79.15
2016 - 76.68
2005 - 76.41

The older they get, the higher their win percentage on fast courts gets.

Made me think of this old article. 65% of pro tennis players interviewed personally know a player who dopes.

Tennis has a clean record on PEDs, and that appears to be no accident

abcnews.go.com

 

[ForehandRF]

If we add up hard, clay, and grass Elo career ranking:
Federe 2, 8, 1
Nole 1, 4, 5
Nada 5, 1, 12
Ivan 4, 3, 14
Borg, 2, 2, 30

If we add up the three scores.
Federe 2637 + 2450 + 2547
Nole 2670 + 2537 + 2504 (Nole greaterer)

Rank	Country	Name	Hard Elo Rating	Date
1	SRB	Novak Djokovic	2670	01-08-2016
2	SUI	Roger Federer	2637	05-03-2007
3	USA	Pete Sampras	2524	03-03-1997
4	USA	Ivan Lendl	2513	19-10-1987
5	ESP	Rafael Nadal	2506	09-09-2013
6	USA	Andre Agassi	2500	21-08-1995
7	GBR	Andy Murray	2490	21-11-2016
8	AUS	Rod Laver	2483	29-03-1971
9	USA	John McEnroe	2455	19-08-1985
10	SWE	Stefan Edberg	2430	14-09-1992
11	SWE	Mats Wilander	2421	12-09-1988
12	USA	Jim Courier	2415	08-03-1993
13	USA	Jimmy Connors	2410	02-04-1984

Rank	Country	Name	Clay Elo Rating	Date
1	ESP	Rafael Nadal	2668	10-06-2013
2	SWE	Bjorn Borg	2638	21-06-1980
3	USA	Ivan Lendl	2540	16-05-1988
4	SRB	Novak Djokovic	2537	06-06-2016
5	ARG	Guillermo Vilas	2508	02-01-1978
6	AUT	Thomas Muster	2458	29-04-1996
7	ARG	Jose Luis Clerc	2454	13-10-1981
8	USA	Jimmy Connors	2450	13-08-1979
8	SUI	Roger Federer	2450	29-09-2009
10	AUS	Ken Rosewall	2433	27-07-1970
11	SWE	Mats Wilander	2432	20-07-1987
12	GBR	Andy Murray	2415	06-06-2016

So, Djokovic's ELO on hard is higher than Nadal's ELO on clay ? I guess ELO is more like Electric Light Orchestra that anything else

 

[NatF]

List Nadal scorelines if you want.

Murray of 09 is not considered contender for Wim titles in others years as well .....

Still better than Soderling and Youzhny lol.

He'd be a contender post 2015 or in 2013 aha.

 

[RaulRamirez]

I was talking mostly since to include the Djokovic era, I think 2007/2008/2009 Fed were all similar in level, slightly lesser each year. Good chance of five sets all around.



Relax, old man was meant to be tongue in cheek. Maybe I should have used an emoji.

And BTW many Nadal and Djokovic fans downplay his actual decline (and his opponents in his best years) in an effort to talk up their favs. It cuts both ways.

Fed definitely dipped his play in sets 3 and sets 4. His straight setter with Murray was about three hours IIRC not a terribly short match, a 34 year old losing a little elasticity in his legs after over two hours of intense play isn't that weird. For whatever reason in 2015 I feel like Fed's conditioning wasn't that great, even in 2014 I felt like he competed better physically. Maybe Djokovic made him run more?

You also misread what I was talking about anyway, I was not making excuses for why Federer lost I was simply pointing that out 2015 Djokovic while very very good will not be able to distance himself from better versions of Federer so easily like he did 2015.

Per the last point, I guess I just am not good at hypotheticals, though you may very well be right. I don't recall how long the "Murrderer" semi was, but do recall Fed playing at an incredibly high level that day.

 

[RS]

Still better than Soderling and Youzhny lol.

He'd be a contender post 2015 or in 2013 aha.

Late rounds struggles were more in the Arod corner than the Rafa one and those are the most relevant rounds

Agree with the last sentence but generally not considered by most to a serious threat in hypotheicals.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

Great thread (as usual). Actual stats. I’ve been pointing out that Djokovic easily top 5 on clay all-time. Without Nadal he’d have beaucoup de Coupes...

 

[ND-13]

Nadal 3-1 Federer AO
Nadal 2-1 Djokovic USO
Nadal 7-1 Djokovic FO
Nadal 6-0 Federer FO
The above is why Nadal.is GOAT. By a mile.

There are more than 3 players on the tour.

 

[NatF]

Per the last point, I guess I just am not good at hypotheticals, though you may very well be right. I don't recall how long the "Murrderer" semi was, but do recall Fed playing at an incredibly high level that day.

I'm not saying who would win btw. I do have an opinion on that but at at the very least I think it should be obvious that the match would be significantly harder for Djokovic than the one he had...

 

[NatF]

Late rounds struggles were more in the Arod corner than the Rafa one and those are the most relevant rounds

Agree with the last sentence but generally not considered by most to a serious threat in hypotheicals.

Better players though.

 

[RS]

Better players though.

That is why i was poking.

 

[NoleFam]

I'm not saying who would win btw. I do have an opinion on that but at at the very least I think it should be obvious that the match would be significantly harder for Djokovic than the one he had...

Significantly harder? He served great, sure, but didn't return great and he just wasn't that sharp. I think Djokovic 2015 beats him in 4 tight sets or maybe 5.

 

[Nadalgaenger]

If we add up hard, clay, and grass Elo career ranking:
Federe 2, 8, 1
Nole 1, 4, 5
Nada 5, 1, 12
Ivan 4, 3, 14
Borg, 2, 2, 30

If we add up the three scores.
Federe 2637 + 2450 + 2547
Nole 2670 + 2537 + 2504 (Nole greaterer)

Rank	Country	Name	Hard Elo Rating	Date
1	SRB	Novak Djokovic	2670	01-08-2016
2	SUI	Roger Federer	2637	05-03-2007
3	USA	Pete Sampras	2524	03-03-1997
4	USA	Ivan Lendl	2513	19-10-1987
5	ESP	Rafael Nadal	2506	09-09-2013
6	USA	Andre Agassi	2500	21-08-1995
7	GBR	Andy Murray	2490	21-11-2016
8	AUS	Rod Laver	2483	29-03-1971
9	USA	John McEnroe	2455	19-08-1985
10	SWE	Stefan Edberg	2430	14-09-1992
11	SWE	Mats Wilander	2421	12-09-1988
12	USA	Jim Courier	2415	08-03-1993
13	USA	Jimmy Connors	2410	02-04-1984

Rank	Country	Name	Clay Elo Rating	Date
1	ESP	Rafael Nadal	2668	10-06-2013
2	SWE	Bjorn Borg	2638	21-06-1980
3	USA	Ivan Lendl	2540	16-05-1988
4	SRB	Novak Djokovic	2537	06-06-2016
5	ARG	Guillermo Vilas	2508	02-01-1978
6	AUT	Thomas Muster	2458	29-04-1996
7	ARG	Jose Luis Clerc	2454	13-10-1981
8	USA	Jimmy Connors	2450	13-08-1979
8	SUI	Roger Federer	2450	29-09-2009
10	AUS	Ken Rosewall	2433	27-07-1970
11	SWE	Mats Wilander	2432	20-07-1987
12	GBR	Andy Murray	2415	06-06-2016

Meanwhile I got trashed by some people just for ASKING if ND would have been top 3 all-time on clay had he beaten Nadal.

I’d still put him top 5. Nadal would have mauled Lendl, Kuerten, and Courier...

 

[MichaelNadal]

Michel my man. How've you been bro??

Good and you? Slept like an old tired BRICK today lol. Chicken tenders and youtube with my cat now and u?

 

[NatF]

Significantly harder? He served great, sure, but didn't return great and he just wasn't that sharp. I think Djokovic 2015 beats him in 4 tight sets or maybe 5.

Roddick served much better than Djokovic would lol. Like I said 2009 Fed is criminally underrated.

 

[RS]

Federer Wim 12 final vs Djoker Wim 15 final ?

 

[ForehandRF]

Federer Wim 12 final vs Djoker Wim 15 final then who wins that?

If the match is a 5 setter, then Djokovic wins.

 

[NoleFam]

Roddick served much better than Djokovic would lol. Like I said 2009 Fed is criminally underrated.

I think 2009 Federer is overrated. He hit 50 aces on Roddick. Cut that to about half if it was Djokovic on the other side of the net. That's 25 points or over 6 games. Of course Roddick is a better server than Djokovic but Federer at 28% returning is not great. Federer returned his serve at 39% in 2004, for example.

 

[Third Serve]

Roddick served much better than Djokovic would lol. Like I said 2009 Fed is criminally underrated.

Fed’s return still wasn’t that great during the match even factoring in the serve (which was firing for both players). It was decent but nothing special. Still quite better than 2015 but not by that huge of a margin imo.

Also had a bit of sloppy play at times but still hit his shots really well. Serve, FH, and BH were all working well for him that day. Also much better off the ground than 2015 Fed obvs.

I think Fed would have absolutely taken 2015 Djoker to five. I just don’t know if Roddick could. It would at least be four tight sets in my view.

 

[NoleFam]

Fed’s return still wasn’t that great during the match even factoring in the serve (which was firing for both players). It was decent but nothing special. Still quite better than 2015 but not by that huge of a margin imo.

Also had a bit of sloppy play at times but still hit his shots really well. Serve, FH, and BH were all working well for him that day. Also much better off the ground than 2015 Fed obvs.

I think Fed would have absolutely taken 2015 Djoker to five. I just don’t know if Roddick could. It would at least be four tight sets in my view.

Take away the serve and 2009 Federer was +23. Do the same for 2014 Federer and he was +22. Both versions were serve botting. To tell you the truth, 2009 Federer really could rely on 1st strike (big serve, big forehand) because there weren't many long rallies. That would never happen in a match with Djokovic.

 

[NatF]

I think 2009 Federer is overrated. He hit 50 aces on Roddick. Cut that to about half if it was Djokovic on the other side of the net. That's 25 points or over 6 games. Of course Roddick is a better server than Djokovic but Federer at 28% returning is not great. Federer returned his serve at 39% in 2004, for example.

More breaks both ways obviously. Man says 09 Fed is overrated after saying Djokovic gets him in four sets...the irony lol.

 

[NoleFam]

More breaks both ways obviously. Man says 09 Fed is overrated after saying Djokovic gets him in four sets...the irony lol.

I didn't mean overrated by me... Both Roddick and Federer returned way better in 2004. That was one of the best returning performances I've ever seen from Roddick.

 

[NatF]

Fed’s return still wasn’t that great during the match even factoring in the serve (which was firing for both players). It was decent but nothing special. Still quite better than 2015 but not by that huge of a margin imo.

Also had a bit of sloppy play at times but still hit his shots really well. Serve, FH, and BH were all working well for him that day. Also much better off the ground than 2015 Fed obvs.

I think Fed would have absolutely taken 2015 Djoker to five. I just don’t know if Roddick could. It would at least be four tight sets in my view.

You all talk like 15 Djokovic didn't have his own periods of sloppy play lol. Not so much in sets 3 and 4 but Federer's level dipped a bit there and made it easier.

I didn't even say Fed would win, just that saying he goes down in four set is fanboyism.

 

[NatF]

I didn't mean overrated by me... Both Roddick and Federer returned way better in 2004. That was one of the best returning performances I've ever seen from Roddick.

Federer in 04 returned like Djokovic on grass. Both guys in 04 were better. However 2009 was still prime Federer, the guy has 8 Wimbledon titles for a reason. He doesn't go down in four sets lol.

 

[RS]

If the match is a 5 setter, then Djokovic wins.

Level from both was very impressive among my favourite performaces from both players funny enough even though i do not root for them.

 

[NoleFam]

Federer in 04 returned like Djokovic on grass. Both guys in 04 were better. However 2009 was still prime Federer, the guy has 8 Wimbledon titles for a reason. He doesn't go down in four sets lol.

He did in 2015 and should have in 2014...lol. I just don't think it was one of the better versions of Federer.

 

[NoleFam]

You all talk like 15 Djokovic didn't have his own periods of sloppy play lol. Not so much in sets 3 and 4 but Federer's level dipped a bit there and made it easier.

I didn't even say Fed would win, just that saying he goes down in four set is fanboyism.

Djokovic was never sloppy in that match. What he was doing was choking in that 2nd set tiebreak with some questionable shot selection.

 

[NatF]

He did in 2015 and should have in 2014...lol. I just don't think it was one of the better versions of Federer.

I say prime Federer and you come back with 2014/2015 Fed...Think we're done here lol.

 

[NatF]

Djokovic was never sloppy in that match. What he was doing was choking in that 2nd set tiebreak with some questionable shot selection.

Sloppy shot selection?

 

[FrontHeadlock]

I'm LOL-ing at the "statistical analysis" in this thread

 

[NoleFam]

Sloppy shot selection?

I see sloppy as making unnessary errors. That wasn't Djokovic that day.

 

[NoleFam]

I say prime Federer and you come back with 2014/2015 Fed...Think we're done here lol.

I know what you said and I was being a smartass. Lol

 

[NatF]

I see sloppy as making unnessary errors. That wasn't Djokovic that day.

Sloppy tactics is subpar just as errors are.

 

[Meles]

Meanwhile I got trashed by some people just for ASKING if ND would have been top 3 all-time on clay had he beaten Nadal.

I’d still put him top 5. Nadal would have mauled Lendl, Kuerten, and Courier...

And the players you just named aren't even in the top 12 on clay except of course Lendl. The problem with peak clay Elo rating for Nole is both he and Murray got to springboard off of Nadal's high Elo in 2015 and even parts of 2014 and 2016 when Nadal was decidely not playing well. He's a legit over 2400 rating player, probably very close to Federer or slightly higher.

 

[NoleFam]

Sloppy tactics is subpar just as errors are.

I wouldn't even say it was sloppy tactics. He had an easy inside in forehand to take the 2nd set and went inside out where Federer camped there and guessed right, hitting a backhand down the line which he couldn't get to in time to get a decent hit on. That's what I mean by questionable shot selection.

 

[Third Serve]

You all talk like 15 Djokovic didn't have his own periods of sloppy play lol. Not so much in sets 3 and 4 but Federer's level dipped a bit there and made it easier.

I didn't even say Fed would win, just that saying he goes down in four set is fanboyism.

He did, but significantly less often. Unless we’re talking the whole tournament with the Anderson match or something like that.

With regards to the bolded, we seem to agree. I did say Fed was deffo going down in five. It’s just about the whole underrated/overrated business.

 

[Phoenix1983]

To be GOAT one needs multiple Majors on all surfaces across the Big 3 Majors One player has that. Its neither Federer or Djokovic

That's because there are two slams on hard court, as opposed to one on clay.

 

[Meles]

So, Djokovic's ELO on hard is higher than Nadal's ELO on clay ? I guess ELO is more like Electric Light Orchestra that anything else

If Nadal ran up all the clay masters in a year plus RG then he'd probably be higher.

 

[NatF]

He did, but significantly less often. Unless we’re talking the whole tournament with the Anderson match or something like that.

With regards to the bolded, we seem to agree. I did say Fed was deffo going down in five. It’s just about the whole underrated/overrated business.

Deffo going down in five lol. OK.

Easier to play solid if you're playing a worse opponent, and yes 2015 finals Fed played worse than Roddick.

 

[Zetty]

20 years from now people will be bringing up this stat.

 

[Third Serve]

Deffo going down in five lol. OK.

Easier to play solid if you're playing a worse opponent, and yes 2015 finals Fed played worse than Roddick.

A better phrasing would be like I think Djokovic would win, but if Fed is going down he’s going down in five.

As far as playing solid against weaker opponents goes, I’m not sure if I would want to die on that hill considering Djokovic isn’t the only one of the Big 3 to find himself in those situations.

 

[RaulRamirez]

So, Djokovic's ELO on hard is higher than Nadal's ELO on clay ? I guess ELO is more like Electric Light Orchestra that anything else

Well, that came out of the blue.

Redirect Notice