Flat serves, worth it?
- Thread starter Mbautista
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El Pelele
Banned
You shouldn't slow down on the second serve, in fact you should try to generate even more racket head speed than your first serve, be it flat or slice, because hitting with more speed actually is safer, because you put more spin on the ball or RPM, so it will drop quicker to the court.
If you swing slower than your 1st serve, you'll get crushed.
What you should do is just go to a court and practice these serves, swinging as fast as you can until you get it down. I tell you, these serves are really cool, not to mention they'll become a weapon, and you'll be a better player.
skyman1700
New User
i'm a level 0 beginner and I'm still trying to get my 2nd serve together...wht type of serve should I stick with...whts difference between kick and slice serve?
By tennis terms its still called a 'flat serve', even though its not flat. But the point is that advanced players hit the ball as flat as possible to generate as much pace as possible and aren't going for kick and slice serves on the first serves. Thats the only way to explain the 20mph difference between first and second serves and the fact that most aces occur during first serves.
orangettecoleman
Professional
I don't slow down the second serve, i hit it as hard but i'm more cautious with the placement.
El Pelele
Banned
that's what i wanted to say, this is true
mental midget
Hall of Fame
a few things-
are they worth it? if it's fast, and you're reasonably consistent, of course it is. pros hit 'flat' serves all the time.
as for grips, 99.99% of professional players serve with a continental grip, +/- a few degrees of rotation. power comes from the wrist snap/pronation, and you can't get very much of it with an eastern forehand grip. the only player in recent memory was becker, who held the racket like a frying pan, and basically just muscled the he11 out of the ball to generate that pace.
are they worth it? if it's fast, and you're reasonably consistent, of course it is. pros hit 'flat' serves all the time.
as for grips, 99.99% of professional players serve with a continental grip, +/- a few degrees of rotation. power comes from the wrist snap/pronation, and you can't get very much of it with an eastern forehand grip. the only player in recent memory was becker, who held the racket like a frying pan, and basically just muscled the he11 out of the ball to generate that pace.
LuckyR
Legend
Being 5' 6" makes you 1 inch taller than Henin who can serve 124 MPH flat serves, so: no, your height is not a barrier to hitting great flat serves.
As to getting a bit of topspin to help consistancy on "flat" serves, that is brought about by tossing the ball a bit higher (most shoot for about 18 inches above) than your contact point and hit the ball on the way back down.
As to getting a bit of topspin to help consistancy on "flat" serves, that is brought about by tossing the ball a bit higher (most shoot for about 18 inches above) than your contact point and hit the ball on the way back down.
El Pelele
Banned
Are you positively sure that they really were 124mph flat serves? If yes, then that's good news.
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El Pelele
Banned
I actually found out right now that I'm actually 5'7", or a milimeter less, but pretty much 5'7".
Henin is actually 5'5 1/2" (Wikipedia) or 5'5 3/4" (Tennis.com), so being 5'6 doesn't mean you're 1 inch taller than her, but at the most, you will be half an inch taller than her, or maybe just 1cm, if tennis.com has it right. So there's really not that big a diference in height when it comes to serving with her if you're 5'6".
LuckyR
Legend
If a 5' 6" woman is hitting 124MPH spin serves, Roddick had better watch out...
wyutani
Hall of Fame
is that humanly possible?
AlpineCadet
Hall of Fame
If he isn't paying you for lessons, let him do what he wants.
davidsmartin
New User
fellow geeks
Here are the results of some calculations for flat serves (assuming no air resistance so that the speed of your serve does not slow from the time you hit it until it hits the ground and assuming that you do not jump forward and hit the serve in front of the base line). If you serve straight down the T and the net is 3 feet and you serve at 100 mph, and you can reach up and hit your serve 9.5 feet off the ground and you hit the back service line, then you had 10 inches of clearance from the net. If you hit your serve only 8.5 feet off the ground (because you are shorter and/or do not jump so high) then you have only 5.8 inches of clearance. So at this speed of serve, getting the extra height increases your margin of error by more than 50%.
However, if you serve at only 60 MPH, then the net clearance for the tall guy is 23.0 inches while the short guy has 18.8 inches, a relatively difference.
So your height is very important if you hit the ball hard and almost irrelevant at slower serve speeds. And it is clear that anyone who hits the ball hard either needs pinpoint control or should work on topspin!
Here is a table showing the net clearance at different serve speeds and heights:
Net clearance
Hitting Height
ball speed 9.5 ft 9 ft 8.5 ft
40 mph 48.4 in 46.2 in 44.1 in
60 mpg 23.0 in 20.9 in 18.8 in
80 mph 14.1 in 12.0 in 9.9 in
100 mph 10.0 in 7.9 in 5.8 in
120 mph 7.7 in 5.6 in 3.5 in
(Sorry, I can't figure out how to format the table. Here is one more attempt)
(I know the math is probably a waste of time, but I had time to waste!)
Dave
Here are the results of some calculations for flat serves (assuming no air resistance so that the speed of your serve does not slow from the time you hit it until it hits the ground and assuming that you do not jump forward and hit the serve in front of the base line). If you serve straight down the T and the net is 3 feet and you serve at 100 mph, and you can reach up and hit your serve 9.5 feet off the ground and you hit the back service line, then you had 10 inches of clearance from the net. If you hit your serve only 8.5 feet off the ground (because you are shorter and/or do not jump so high) then you have only 5.8 inches of clearance. So at this speed of serve, getting the extra height increases your margin of error by more than 50%.
However, if you serve at only 60 MPH, then the net clearance for the tall guy is 23.0 inches while the short guy has 18.8 inches, a relatively difference.
So your height is very important if you hit the ball hard and almost irrelevant at slower serve speeds. And it is clear that anyone who hits the ball hard either needs pinpoint control or should work on topspin!
Here is a table showing the net clearance at different serve speeds and heights:
Net clearance
Hitting Height
ball speed 9.5 ft 9 ft 8.5 ft
40 mph 48.4 in 46.2 in 44.1 in
60 mpg 23.0 in 20.9 in 18.8 in
80 mph 14.1 in 12.0 in 9.9 in
100 mph 10.0 in 7.9 in 5.8 in
120 mph 7.7 in 5.6 in 3.5 in
(Sorry, I can't figure out how to format the table. Here is one more attempt)
(I know the math is probably a waste of time, but I had time to waste!)
Dave
El Pelele
Banned
Here are the results of some calculations for flat serves (assuming no air resistance so that the speed of your serve does not slow from the time you hit it until it hits the ground and assuming that you do not jump forward and hit the serve in front of the base line). If you serve straight down the T and the net is 3 feet and you serve at 100 mph, and you can reach up and hit your serve 9.5 feet off the ground and you hit the back service line, then you had 10 inches of clearance from the net. If you hit your serve only 8.5 feet off the ground (because you are shorter and/or do not jump so high) then you have only 5.8 inches of clearance. So at this speed of serve, getting the extra height increases your margin of error by more than 50%.
However, if you serve at only 60 MPH, then the net clearance for the tall guy is 23.0 inches while the short guy has 18.8 inches, a relatively difference.
So your height is very important if you hit the ball hard and almost irrelevant at slower serve speeds. And it is clear that anyone who hits the ball hard either needs pinpoint control or should work on topspin!
Here is a table showing the net clearance at different serve speeds and heights:
Net clearance
Hitting Height
ball speed 9.5 ft 9 ft 8.5 ft
40 mph 48.4 in 46.2 in 44.1 in
60 mpg 23.0 in 20.9 in 18.8 in
80 mph 14.1 in 12.0 in 9.9 in
100 mph 10.0 in 7.9 in 5.8 in
120 mph 7.7 in 5.6 in 3.5 in
(Sorry, I can't figure out how to format the table. Here is one more attempt)
(I know the math is probably a waste of time, but I had time to waste!)
Dave
So if you contact the ball at a height wich is 8 feet 5 inches, you have 5.8 inches of clearence? So the bare minumun for a flat serve to go in would be to contact it at a height which is like 7'11" and something?
davidsmartin
New User
To clarify:
when I wrote 8.5 as the height I meant eight and a half feet. And the figures were for clearance over the net. But hitting the ball six inches lower does not reduce net clearance by six inches-- the relationship is more complicated. Even if you hit the ball at a height of 7'6" at 100 mph you would still have an inch and a half of net clearance. Most people probably hit the ball 2.5 - 3 feet higher than their own height, so only a very short player would hit that low.
Yes, my calculations included the size of the ball in figuring net clearance.
I didn't do the calculations for other angles of shots. The higher net would at least partially offset the longer distances. But I suspect that since the amount the ball drops due to gravity is proportionate to the time squared, my guess is that there is a bit more clearance on serves to the outside.
In any event, it is clear that since I am never likely to be accurate enough to consistently hit the ball a few inches above the net I should learn to get some topspin on my serves!
when I wrote 8.5 as the height I meant eight and a half feet. And the figures were for clearance over the net. But hitting the ball six inches lower does not reduce net clearance by six inches-- the relationship is more complicated. Even if you hit the ball at a height of 7'6" at 100 mph you would still have an inch and a half of net clearance. Most people probably hit the ball 2.5 - 3 feet higher than their own height, so only a very short player would hit that low.
Yes, my calculations included the size of the ball in figuring net clearance.
I didn't do the calculations for other angles of shots. The higher net would at least partially offset the longer distances. But I suspect that since the amount the ball drops due to gravity is proportionate to the time squared, my guess is that there is a bit more clearance on serves to the outside.
In any event, it is clear that since I am never likely to be accurate enough to consistently hit the ball a few inches above the net I should learn to get some topspin on my serves!
El Pelele
Banned
Holy cow, after testing a little of what you said, it would have to be a near perfect shot for the ball to go in (if it's a flat serve) if you contact the ball at 8 and a half feet.
So I'm 5'7", and I can reach 8 and a half feet easily standing straight, without lifting my heels; how much more do you think I could reach when I serve for real on a court, making a jump?
El Pelele
Banned
Higher meaning you have lower chances?
...no, meaning you'd have a higher margin of error.
Gravity is a very powerful force and it pulls to the ground, whereas air resistance (air is a very thick substance if you haven't noticed) causes the ball to lose speed rather quickly, and fall faster.
keep in mind that a bullet that is fired from a gun and a bullet that is dropped will hit the ground at the same time...
Gravity is a very powerful force and it pulls to the ground, whereas air resistance (air is a very thick substance if you haven't noticed) causes the ball to lose speed rather quickly, and fall faster.
keep in mind that a bullet that is fired from a gun and a bullet that is dropped will hit the ground at the same time...
