I want some proof..Pro Stock racquets

[Azzurri]

Does anyone have a shred of proof that these pro stock racquets (PT57's, TGK's, PT. H22, etc...) have a different material make up (what its made of)? I have had some recent discussions with forum members and no one really knows. I realize the pro stock racquets come in lighter in order to allow customization, but what about the materials?

Too many have stated the PT57A is NOT the PT630 because they are not made of the same materials they have different weight, balances and flex.

So the PT630 cannot possibly be made of the same materials because we know that pro stock sticks come in different specs. than retail versions..that seems to be a fact.

Here is what bothers me; Wilson 90 racquets (PT90, N90, K90 and BLX90) all had a lighter "Asian" version that had different flex, SW, static weight and balance than their US version. Many of the TT community have hit with both and one thing that seems clear, while they have different specs, I have never read anything where it states they are made up of DIFFERENT MATERIALS. So would it not be logical that these pro stock racquets are made of the same materials as their pin codes (57a=PT630, 57e=i.Prestige, 57b=Radical Tour, PT10-PC600, TGK's=depending on code could be microgel/Youtek, etc.)????

 

[mtommer]

.............

 

[JoelDali]

The ****s in the troll kingdom can't handle the truth. Even Roger admitted he didn't know.

Why did you delete your post M?

 

[XFactorer]

I think the logical fallacy in the poll is false dichotomy. You're asking A or B when in reality things could be C or D or a combo of A and B.

 

[Marcus]

And yes means no !?

 

[Azzurri]

And yes means no !?

I noticed this after i set up the poll, but anyone with half-a-brain could figure out the point.

 

[mtommer]

Why did you delete your post M?

I'm typing and reading at work so the thoughts in the post were a bit disjointed due to interruptions.

--------------------------
Here's the most likely answer to the OP's question. (I've posted this before but alas...)

Do the sporting goods equipment makers make the materials they use to make their goods? Do they own the companies that make the materials (hint: I just answered the first question)? Keep an eye on the material manufacturers. If one does so, you'll see a correlation between marketing of consumer goods and the materials offered. As the material mfg's offerings change due to (usually) technological upgrades, what happens to the older products offered? Do they continue to be offered or are they phased out? If they are phased out (they are), why? Who are the largest customers, and subsequently the driving force behind the materials being made and offered, for these companies? Are they consumer goods companies? Subsequently, if those consumer goods companies are not the largest user of the goods, more succintly put: "A big player.", how much clout do you think they have over material choice and quality?

More simply put: "What choices in materials do the consumer goods product makers have when they design their products? Do they get to tell their product manufacturers to use whatever material they desire for use or are they given the capacities/choices of the manufacuring plants and design around those choices?"

Why wasn't Dunlop able to make more of Blake's racquets?

 

[Marcus]

I noticed this after i set up the poll, but anyone with half-a-brain could figure out the point.

And you think everyone one here has as much as half a brain.... Some people can't set a poll up with 2 options that aren't contradictory !!

 

[Azzurri]

And you think everyone one here has as much as half a brain.... Some people can't set a poll up with 2 options that aren't contradictory !!

no clue what your problem is, but its pretty clear what the A/B choices are. if you think they are different materials in the pro stock or not. its also clear you are a former banned poster.

 

[insiderman]

it isn't a 'different materials' aspect! it is what is called a; 'layup' that is often different - the layup is where we typically use the same exact materials, but the angles of the graphite are strategically placed at different angles in specific regions - thus, adding or taking away, stiffness, etc...

 

[accidental]

I was an iPrestige user for a long time, and then decided I wanted a pt57e because it was pro stock and i assumed somehow of better quality to my standard prestiges. I paid 300 for one on the bay and when I got it i noticed it was lighter than my iPrestiges, but other than that seemed to play very similarly. When i weighted it up to similar specs it seemed to play and feel pretty much identical to what i was used to besides the minor effects from my do it yourself weighting job.

So since then I've gone back to using my iprestiges, and have always assumed that the 57e was exactly the same as the retail iprestige, and havent bothered having my 57e matched to my current frames properly since i have 8 iprestiges in playable condition already

My opinion is that the pt57e is the same frame as the retail iPrestige. But it is merely opinion since I have no proof

 

[Azzurri]

it isn't a 'different materials' aspect! it is what is called a; 'layup' that is often different - the layup is where we typically use the same exact materials, but the angles of the graphite are strategically placed at different angles in specific regions - thus, adding or taking away, stiffness, etc...

I agree. I believe there is no different graphite materials, but "layup" if that is what its called provides the difference in flex, balance and weight. please vote, thanks.

 

[cnr1guy]

There's no way to find this out. Not like Head or Wilson would ever admit (1) they make higher quality frames for pros or (2) that the pros have different racquets than those they are being advertised to play with.

 

[Azzurri]

I was an iPrestige user for a long time, and then decided I wanted a pt57e because it was pro stock and i assumed somehow of better quality to my standard prestiges. I paid 300 for one on the bay and when I got it i noticed it was lighter than my iPrestiges, but other than that seemed to play very similarly. When i weighted it up to similar specs it seemed to play and feel pretty much identical to what i was used to besides the minor effects from my do it yourself weighting job.

So since then I've gone back to using my iprestiges, and have always assumed that the 57e was exactly the same as the retail iprestige, and havent bothered having my 57e matched to my current frames properly since i have 8 iprestiges in playable condition already

My opinion is that the pt57e is the same frame as the retail iPrestige. But it is merely opinion since I have no proof

Your (and my experience) is the reason why I have had some "discussion" with a few posters about the "materials" issue/arguement. No one has been able to and I doubt anyone will be able to provide any proof that these racquets are made of a "higher quality" graphite material. people claim the "layup" makes it a different material..bull crap.

 

[Azzurri]

There's no way to find this out. Not like Head or Wilson would ever admit (1) they make higher quality frames for pros or (2) that the pros have different racquets than those they are being advertised to play with.

you are most likely correct. but there are some that will fight to the death regarding this issue yet they don't know for sure themselves.:?

 

[Gimmick]

A few years back TW Australia had several SMU Instinct Tour xl racquets all with different specs. Don't know how to go back in time and retrieve it but someone has the proof.

 

[ART ART]

Hey!!

Sorry but I have vote in the wrong option !

How can I change it ?

 

[insiderman]

well, you (can) all have your views - however, I live it daily for my j.o.b. - I assure you...it is in the magic of how we configure the layup that adds unique properties for the Pro's - again, they play a totally different game then we do,,,

 

[mtommer]

people claim the "layup" makes it a different material..bull crap.

True but different layups create different products none the less.

I assure you...it is in the magic of how we configure the layup that adds unique properties for the Pro's - again, they play a totally different game then we do,,,

The only difference between this and pro stock frames (assuming layup differences only) is that high ranked pros have the option to try different layups until they find one they like. In retail, you have to go with what is put forth by the manufacturers. At it's heart, this is just a more in-depth racquet matching program. However, retail racquets are still just fine for pro play and they don't play a totally different game than us, they simply play it much better. Your high level college players don't get pro-stock racquets and they play the pro game regarding the forces received and dealt out to the ball as well as athleticism etc.

 

[dak95_00]

They are clearly different and when I find 3 more PT57As for a total of $100 at my local Play It Again Sports, I'll sell them to the people who think the same as me for a total of $800!:twisted:

 

[Funbun]

I think the logical fallacy in the poll is false dichotomy. You're asking A or B when in reality things could be C or D or a combo of A and B.

An even bigger factor is in the response bias. How would we really know? This is only a speculation poll; do the poll answerers seriously know? Probably half of the responders haven't even touched a pro stock racquet, including me.

The only way this thread will get through is if someone dare cut open a $400 pro stock racquet, test the composition, and compare it to the retail.

 

[Terre Battu]

Zzzzzz.......

 

[dennistennis]

there is a TGK 237.1 raquet on the auction site now for $99. hella a deal... Things you cant get at play it again sports

 

[sargeinaz]

I agree with Azzuri that I have not seen any proof as well. Just posters swearing they somehow play better, have less arm pain or something else with these prostock frames.

 

[000KFACTOR90000]

I agree with Azzuri that I have not seen any proof as well. Just posters swearing they somehow play better, have less arm pain or something else with these prostock frames.

I've hit with a fully customized pro frame and it was gorgeous, however I think the fact that it started out super light and was siliconed, leaded and tweaked by pro customisers is the secret.

 

[Azzurri]

there is a TGK 237.1 raquet on the auction site now for $99. hella a deal... Things you cant get at play it again sports

is this a buy it now price or auction?

 

[Azzurri]

I agree with Azzuri that I have not seen any proof as well. Just posters swearing they somehow play better, have less arm pain or something else with these prostock frames.

I have asked for this "proof" and no one has been able to provide it. I see the term "layup" being used more and more. That is fine and it is logical that a high end touring pro can get racquets made a bit different, but still having the same material as their pin codes (pt57a=pt630). For years people have stated the MATERIALS are different, "high end graphite", "high quality graphite"...nonsense. The PT's painted as a Youtek, Liquidmetal or Microgel just don't have those materials, but the TGK's do (they just come lighter). Reason why people love the PT's more (seems that way) is because it has the old school materials and none of the new stiffer materials. The TGK's don;t feel as good as the PT's because they are made up/layed up like the newer racquets only in lighter weight.

 

[Azzurri]

An even bigger factor is in the response bias. How would we really know? This is only a speculation poll; do the poll answerers seriously know? Probably half of the responders haven't even touched a pro stock racquet, including me.

The only way this thread will get through is if someone dare cut open a $400 pro stock racquet, test the composition, and compare it to the retail.

you make a good point. and there is no doubt the PT's probably feel better than the modern retail racquets (based on so many people having hit them). its rare to read anyone claim a PT57 feels like a tin can..never read it actually. but I see your point.

exactly my point, someone has to have a broken one out there. we need to dissect a pt57.

 

[Azzurri]

well, you (can) all have your views - however, I live it daily for my j.o.b. - I assure you...it is in the magic of how we configure the layup that adds unique properties for the Pro's - again, they play a totally different game then we do,,,

would you please explain the process of "layup". I know the basic concept, but if you would please give us an example of different "layups" a pro may go through in selecting a racquet..the process (in basic terms..I am no genius) and what entails a "layup". thanks in advance.

 

[Azzurri]

Hey!!

Sorry but I have vote in the wrong option !

How can I change it ?

its OK Art. no way to change it.

 

[RFRF]

The best way to resolve this is if anybody who owns a actuall players frame has a hit with it. This is the only way to tell!!! I don't believe for one second that there the same. And the people in the know, I won't name names know this.

 

[Azzurri]

The best way to resolve this is if anybody who owns a actuall players frame has a hit with it. This is the only way to tell!!! I don't believe for one second that there the same. And the people in the know, I won't name names know this.

there are people that have hit with PT 57 a/e that could not tell the difference between their retail versions (pt630 and i.prestige MP) and the PT.

 

[dr325i]

I also agree with Azzurri that I have not seen a PROOF of either...

Also, the discussion should have been not if different graphite or quality is used but do we think and have a proof (again) that the pro rackets still have twaron in them like the PT630, or Microgel (TGK238.1 example) or D3O (238.4 example) and so on. That would constitute different materials, not only the layup...

 

[dr325i]

there are people that have hit with PT 57 a/e that could not tell the difference between their retail versions (pt630 and i.prestige MP) and the PT.

And there are people that COULD tell the difference, so...

 

[mtommer]

would you please explain the process of "layup". I know the basic concept, but if you would please give us an example of different "layups" a pro may go through in selecting a racquet..the process (in basic terms..I am no genius) and what entails a "layup". thanks in advance.

Here ya' go...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRhbYnNTdkg&feature=related

 

[courtking]

I owned all version PT57A, PT57E, TGKxxx.. PT57A plays and and feels more like a PT630.. PT57E is iPrestige .. TGKxxx plays and feels like stock racket but with room for customize.. You can always tell the difference of PT10.. it's soft with great feel.. it's like night and day against stock racket....

 

[dr325i]

I owned all version PT57A, PT57E, TGKxxx.. PT57A plays and and feels more like a PT630.. PT57E is iPrestige .. TGKxxx plays and feels like stock racket but with room for customize.. You can always tell the difference of PT10.. it's soft with great feel.. it's like night and day against stock racket....

WOW, that is the first. Azzurri will show you that the PT10 is indeed the PC600 stock and nothing else (unless you thought something else was under the paint?)...

 

[bad_call]

Here ya' go...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRhbYnNTdkg&feature=related

looks like the "lay up" methods are the trick. thanks for the link.

 

[Bhagi Katbamna]

Well, Berdych's old Dunlop Aerogel paintjob had "No Aerogel" printed on the racket.

 

[vsbabolat]

Well, Berdych's old Dunlop Aerogel paintjob had "No Aerogel" printed on the racket.

Yes, Berdych frames had "Aerogel" Printed on the frames.

http://suppawat.multiply.com/reviews/item/48

 

[Azzurri]

I also agree with Azzurri that I have not seen a PROOF of either...

Also, the discussion should have been not if different graphite or quality is used but do we think and have a proof (again) that the pro rackets still have twaron in them like the PT630, or Microgel (TGK238.1 example) or D3O (238.4 example) and so on. That would constitute different materials, not only the layup...

yes, good point. i forgot to mention the twaron, very important in this case since that would make up a "material".

 

[Azzurri]

And there are people that COULD tell the difference, so...

yes, that is why I am looking for someone that has some concrete evidence. I know that PT630 took apart a KPS88 or some racquet to confirm a certain type of material..looking for something along those lines.

 

[Azzurri]

I owned all version PT57A, PT57E, TGKxxx.. PT57A plays and and feels more like a PT630.. PT57E is iPrestige .. TGKxxx plays and feels like stock racket but with room for customize.. You can always tell the difference of PT10.. it's soft with great feel.. it's like night and day against stock racket....

thanks for the information. curious, but as Dr325 mentioned do you believe the PT10 to be different in feel than the original prestige classic (PC600)?

 

[vsbabolat]

WOW, that is the first. Azzurri will show you that the PT10 is indeed the PC600 stock and nothing else (unless you thought something else was under the paint?)...

I know for fact that PT10 is the PC600.

 

[mtommer]

looks like the "lay up" methods are the trick. thanks for the link.

Here is an acoustical wave propagation through a CF laminate.

*

Wave velocity along fibers is higher than across fibers within the same ply, and these velocities are both higher than found between plies.* What this means is that by controlling both the direction and number of plies one can control the frequency imparted to the user of a racquet. As shown in the video, these two factors can also be used to adjust the mechanical properties of a racquet. This can be used in the design process using FEA software to further enhance desired wave frequency propagation.

In CF laminate, it is actually made up of different "compartments" within the singular laminate. The frequency propagation through a material is determined by how the velocity is affected going through the different compartmetns: the carbon fiber, resin matrix and the interfaces (bonding)between each material. Not only has the carbon fiber and resin become better with newer materials but the processes for resin use has allowed far better saturation of the resin as well as allowing much less of it to be used. I find it is no coincidence than many people feel today's racquets are "tinny" compared to older racquets. This is a result of better graphite which is very brittle coupled with more of it playing into the overall makeup of the racquet. Concerning pro-stock racquets, it's no surprise that these will feel less tinny as the lesser material used to allow for customization means more material will be added that have different frequency wave propagation values (also factoring in the differences in the design to allow for more flexibility etc. as desired).
*Acoustical Imaging, Volume 27

Another intersting source to checkout is: Acoustic Emissions at High and Low Frequencies During Compression Tests in Brittle Materials published in the journal "Strain"

 

[Pioneer]

I know for a fact that Goran Ivanisevic smashed all his racquets in a singles match, then went to the nearest store and bought 3 Prestige Classic 600s and played doubles an hour later.

 

[Azzurri]

I know for a fact that Goran Ivanisevic smashed all his racquets in a singles match, then went to the nearest store and bought 3 Prestige Classic 600s and played doubles an hour later.

great story. goran was truly one of a kind.

 

[big bang]

I have used TGK238.5 and retail YTPP, they are somehow similar but still different. It felt like the TGK wasnt as stiff and had a different flex to it. It had the exact same specs as the retail version, it could be the polarized set up with silicone and lead at 12 that did it but it played better IMO.

 

[Bhagi Katbamna]

Yes, Berdych frames had "Aerogel" Printed on the frames.


http://suppawat.multiply.com/reviews/item/48

No that isn't what I meant. The paint cosmetic said "Aerogel 200" but in small print on the racket itself, it said "No Aerogel".

 

[Azzurri]

I have used TGK238.5 and retail YTPP, they are somehow similar but still different. It felt like the TGK wasnt as stiff and had a different flex to it. It had the exact same specs as the retail version, it could be the polarized set up with silicone and lead at 12 that did it but it played better IMO.

I played a TGK when I first got it and it had lead on the head and grip area..it was a bit heavy but it felt soooooo sweet. It has a soft, somewhat flexy and cushioned feel. I took off the lead because it was too heavy and it totally felt different after, so you are probably right the lead had something to do with it.