BH40love
Semi-Pro
Your clueless
Most overrated player in the Open Era
- Thread starter frodobaggins
- Start date
Your clueless
fhdowntheline
Semi-Pro
Nadal overrated ? Thats a big laugh. If winning 18 slams (nevermind 11 on one surface), multiple masters, is overrated then one should check the English language dictionary. Nadal has won 7 other GS titles, most so-called greats have won 6-7 in TOTAL.
How about Murray, Rios, Nishikori, Roddick, Joe Wilfried Tsonga, Safin, Hewitt? They are not overrated ?
Shaolin
G.O.A.T.
Nadal is overrated because people put him in the conversation of overall GOAT.
He's the clay GOAT easily. His clay records will last all of our lifetimes and longer. To think he is an overall GOAT candidate is wrong though. He cant win indoors or defend titles off clay. Zero WTFs just cant be ignored, as much as his fans like to ignore it.
Overall GOAT is a race b/w Nole and Fed, the guys who can win on any surface/condition.
CHillTennis
Hall of Fame
That's interesting. How would Bjorn Borg be considered greater than Nadal on a hard court?
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
vaillancourt
Rookie
I find Kuznetsova on the poll kind of funny. I hardly ever hear her talked about, even for a 2 slam winner. Dont you have to be hyped or much praised to be overrated, especialy when you arent exactly a nobody.
vaillancourt
Rookie
I hardly ever hear Nadal called GOAT. You must be thinking of Nadal fanboys, but by that logic Seles would be way more overrated since she is much further from being the female GOAT and she has a larger group of fans who insist she is the GOAT based on purely ficticious and self fabriciated reasoning.
I voted Nalbandian on the poll btw. Seles and Crack....ooops I meant Capriati would have been my next 2 choices.
SaintPetros
Hall of Fame
Where is Federer?
DSH
Talk Tennis Guru
vaillancourt
Rookie
When you see threads like "Best Athlete Ever?" yes Federer belongs on the overrated list too, despite being probably the GOAT for now.
SaintPetros
Hall of Fame
'greed. He's one of the tennis GOATS, but nowhere near the god he's made out to be.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
I dare say Fedeification is no longer the mainstream narrative. Djokodal have come too close and the three are now viewed as overall equals, even if Federer maintains a slight edge.
At this point I feel like Murray is probably the most overrated (generally, not on this board), as modern casual fans seem to view him as an about 8 slam caliber player, potentially better than Becker/Edberg/Wilander but for the Big 3. I find that to be quite a ridiculous notion and quite disrespectful to those ATGs.
SaintPetros
Hall of Fame
I felt very differently after the Wimbledon final. All we hear is how much better Fed played, how he really deserved to win, how amazing he is to be playing at such a high level at this age blah, blah, blah
As for Murray, he is GOAT.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
You've been tuning out what you don't want to hear. There was all that you say, but Djokovic was praised just as much. I found it annoying to see him touted as the mentally strongest ever, as if being clutcher than Federer of all people is proof. Sampras underrated again.
SaintPetros
Hall of Fame
Lol, I suppose that could be true, maybe the Fed worshiping triggers me at this point.
PETE has always been underrated, no surprise there.
vaillancourt
Rookie
As much as we love tennis and love being in the era of 3 GOATs none of them is close to the best athlete of all time, even if one of them arguably winds up the best tennis player of all time. Atleats not unless one of them wins atleast 25 slams with a Calendar Grand Slam in their 30s. I will leave it at that. So if any of them is talked about as possibly being the best athlete ever they are being overrated.
I would like to know of any champion in any sport who wAS as correspondingly dominant as Federer was between 2004- 2007.
2004 record: 74-6
2005: 81-4
2006 92-5
2007 68-9
And that's including clay court matches against the greatest clay courter who ever lived.
2004 record: 74-6
2005: 81-4
2006 92-5
2007 68-9
And that's including clay court matches against the greatest clay courter who ever lived.
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vaillancourt
Rookie
I could name a lot actually:
Michael Phelps- far moreso in fact.
Tiger Woods in the early 2000s- for golfing standards and given how much more competitive golf is than tennis.
Usian Bolt- again far moreso really.
Alistair Brownlee
Ashton Eaton
Yuzura Hanyu
Kohei Uchimura- much moreso in fact again.
Rowing- Murray and Bond
Chris Hoy
And that is just counting recent people in individual sports. If I added team sports there would probably be a bunch more like Brady, Jordan, Rice, Gretzky, Bonds, Messi, etc.... And if you need further breakdowns on any of these, imparticular Phelps, Bolt, and Uchimura who were clearly even more dominant relative to history and their own sports, and for a longer time, would be happy to do so.
Federer is not even clearly the mens tennis GOAT even though he probably is for now. Still he is challenged currently by Laver, Gonzales, and Tilden, and is likely challenged in the future by Djokovic and Nadal. How can you be the GOAT athlete when you arent even clearly the GOAT of your own sport or discipline, which all of the above I listed and many others easily are.
Tiger Woods???
Tiger Woods was never 51-1 in his career, and I bet you that figure skater Hanyu wasn't either. That was Fed's win/loss at one point.
SaintPetros
Hall of Fame
Nothing will convince me Fed is in the same category as Ali and Jordan, sorry.
His record is better than Ali. I don't know enough about basketball to answer about Jordan.
vaillancourt
Rookie
Nobody is going to win say 9 out of 10 tournaments (I am guessing the 51-1 covered roughly 10 tournaments or something) in golf, as I am sure you know. Tiger in the early 2000s was hands down more dominant than any golfer in history over a several year stretch, including Nicklaus at any point of his career. And of course that 51-1 was only possible fitting between clay seasons, as even at his peak he is incapable of conquering Nadal more than 1 time out of 10 on clay. Such a yearly record for peak Federer (like say 81-2) isnt even possible since 3 or 4 losses on clay a year are all but certain, whether they are to Nadal or someone else.
Tiger at his peak did win 6 of 9 and 7 of 11 golf majors in one stretch, which is comparable to what Federer was doing in the mid 2000s, but that is so much harder and more undoable in golf than tennis, that it isnt funny. If you know anything about golf you know that.
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RS
Bionic Poster
@AnOctorokForDinner
I used to review Murray like that myself as a ATG. I think he needs 2/3 more slams at least to be a ATG.
I used to review Murray like that myself as a ATG. I think he needs 2/3 more slams at least to be a ATG.
vaillancourt
Rookie
I like Murray a lot but he is not an ATG. Edberg and Becker should be minimum standard for an ATG on the mens side.
vaillancourt
Rookie
You obviously need to visit www.tennisforum.com, youtube, or facebook tennis chats if you think there isnt some Seles GOAT talk. Which is IMO ridiculous and enough to qualify her as overrated (not sure if most overrated though).
And Safin is made out to be a god for winning exactly one tennis match over Federer, the 2005 Australian Open semis where Federer had a match point on his own serve. While Nadal who has won like 30 matches over Federer is poop to many Federer fans, so yeah Safin definitely overrated.
Agree on Nalbandian, since I dont even hear him praised that much, so he is not overrated.
skaj
Legend
Again, what you are focusing on is crazed fans. You can do that with any player. When it comes to Seles, both hers and Graf's die hard fans like to engage in "if she weren't stabbed..." debates(well, maybe Steffi's fans may not like it that much, still they feel the strong need to defend her there) but those silly discussions should certainly not be the criteria.
If Safin was made out to be a god, it first happened in 2000 when he played an amazing match against Sampras at the US Open. Majority of people who saw him play at his best think that he could have done much more with his talent and abilities. That is a reasonable opinion.
N
Navdeep Srivastava
Guest
Don in cricket has the greatest peak, he is so ahead of his contemporary like Fed has won 30 slam and 2nd best is around 18 slam
Don averaged around 100 and second best is 60 odd
vaillancourt
Rookie
If you have a large and crazy fan base like Seles who are completely delusional that makes you overrated.
As for Safin, yeah he is made out to be a god just because of a singular match here and there. Another good example. He does have a lot of votes here it seems, I wonder why.
vaillancourt
Rookie
I dont follow cricket so thanks for this. This is way further ahead of everyone than Federer is in tennis actually.
skaj
Legend
If you put it like that Federer and Graf are more overrated than Seles, some other players too.
Safin is also made out to be a god only by crazed fans, not the majority.
vaillancourt
Rookie
Since Federer and Graf cannot possibly be as overrated as a large group insisting 9 slam winner and 0 Wimbledon winner Seles as the GOAT, they are still not as overrated as Seles. Although Federer and his "not only best tennis player ever, but best athlete ever" groupies might come close. Even most of them dont pick fights with all other fan bases everywhere they go like the large group of Seles worshippers seem to though.
Nobody is overrated by a true majority of people, so your last point is moot. Notice Safin is in fact one of the leaders on this poll.
N
Navdeep Srivastava
Guest
Yes, that is why I may put Fed as no. 1 in all time list but he is not a goat beyond any doubt, may be in future but not today.
Laver in past was a goat without any doubt but Fed has left him behind but himself is being chased by two great ATG.
vaillancourt
Rookie
Agreed. So any talk of his being the best athlete ever is crazy. Since there are many people who in their sports are GOAT beyond a doubt or by a much bigger margin than Federer. That cricket guy you listed is clearly another of those based on the stats you just gave. That is a huge gap on any in history Federer does not have in tennis.
skaj
Legend
Why would you think Federer and Graf 'cannot possibly be as overrated"? And where do you see that "large" group? It seems like some irrational idea. Only a few of them are convinced Seles should be seen as the goat just because she had an edge over Graf before the stabbing.
Yes, some people are overrated by a true majority of people. Some are not, but are overrated by more people than most other people. Safin is not one of them.
Polls results in this forum are usually laughable. Notice that Graf and Federer win them in categories in which that they are obviously not the best, like overall groundstrokes for example.
vaillancourt
Rookie
I didnt say Federer and Graf cannot possibly be overrated. Dont know about Graf, but I will say outright Federer IS overrated. I only said they cannot possibly be as overrated as a player so extremely far removed from being the GOAT as Seles is, yet having many people still touting her as the GOAT. No matter how highly they are rated when Federer actually is the current mens GOAT and Graf is very close to it for women.
You probably like Seles and Safin so dont want to admit they are generally overrated. That is fine, others feel differently. Safin does not seem overrated today since he has been retired forever and nobody cares about talking about anything but the Big 3 over and over again today. He was way overrated in the 2000-2006 period he was actually relevant, which is a distant memory now. Even today he is the modern day Hoad, the other person given credit for his ficticious peak level and god status for a great match here and there only. Lew Hoad, who I am guessing you have never heard of, but is a top Australian player from the 50s talked about the same way Safin was in the 2000s.
skaj
Legend
This is not a goat discussion, it's who is more overrated discussion.
Who I like is also not the topic here, I give arguments for my opinions. Me saying that you probably don't like Seles and Safin and that's why you can't except they are not overrated would not be an argument in this discussion.
Many people care about talking about other than "the big 3", in fact many people are sick of the threads about the big 3. Safin was not overrated, I was following tennis in that period, people were talking highly about his talent, abilities, weapons, and for a reason. They were prizing his game when he was on, with a reason. There were not many who thought he was a god(except maybe when it comes to his physical appearance).
And again, in your last sentence an unnecessary and wrong comment about me...
vaillancourt
Rookie
I dont like Seles, but Safin was in fact one of my favorite players. And I still concede he is overrated. I actually followed tennis closely in the 2000s when there was people talking about much more than a so called Big 3, in fact there wasnt even a big 3 yet as Djokovic wasnt a true great until starting next decade. And at that point there was enough said about Safin to conclude easily he was overrated. The level of praise he got was 10x beyond what players of similar achievements like Hewitt (Hewitt did more), Roddick, Kafelnikov. And I can see the argument he is more talented and has a higher peak level than those, but it still doesnt mean with how far the constant praise and hype went he wasnt overrated. People kept debating that he was more talented than Federer, that is overrating.
You dont have any basis for saying Graf and Federer are overrated and Seles and Safin or not. There was a poll on a womens tennis website who rates higher all time between Graf and Seles, and Seles had 40% of the votes. With thousands of voters. Graf is a 22 slam winner and Seles a 9. Seles is WAY way way way way more overrated than Graf. As for Federer the fact people were ever debating him against Safin, already ends any debate who is more overrated. You cant be that overrated when you are the GOAT (Federer) or arguably the GOAT (Graf) anyway.
skaj
Legend
Exactly, people were saying that he could have achieved more, as I've said, and the others you mentioned achieved just about as much as they were expected to. So no overrating there. And people who say that he is more talented than Federer are overrating him, but seriously how many people say that?
I do have basis for saying Graf and Federer are more overrated than Seles and Safin, the basis are in this forum. And you can be overrated if you are the goat, you seem to be confusing the overrated and the goat debates repeatedly in this thread. Federer who is(at least for now) the most successful player ever = the goat, is often overrated in this very forum. Voted for the player with the best groundstrokes overall for example, and the best at almost everything, many people even say that he is conventionally beautiful
People get carried away easily when talking about the greatest players.vaillancourt
Rookie
Exactly, people were saying that he could have achieved more, as I've said, and the others you mentioned achieved just about as much as they were expected to. So no overrating there. And people who say that he is more talented than Federer are overrating him, but seriously how many people say that?
I do have basis for saying Graf and Federer are more overrated than Seles and Safin, the basis are in this forum. And you can be overrated if you are the goat, you seem to be confusing the overrated and the goat debates repeatedly in this thread. Federer who is(at least for now) the most successful player ever = the goat, is often overrated in this very forum. Voted for the player with the best groundstrokes overall for example, and the best at almost everything, many people even say that he is conventionally beautiful
If your basis for Federer being overrated are polls how on earth can you deny Seles is ridiculously overrated and one of the most overrated players when over 40% voted her as greater and ranking higher in history than Graf who has 22 slams to her 9, LOL! And the stabbing alone isnt good enough, it isnt even relatively obvious she would have a better career than Graf without the stabbing, tennis history is littered with pointless what ifs, and the reality is their achievements are miles apart and Graf even ended her career at 30ish in 1999 as a clearly better player than the much younger Seles that year. That is a massive double standard.
And if your basis are polls for Federer, how about the poll on a mens tennis forum that had over 50% vote Safin as more talented than Federer, again with over a thousand voters sometime in 2005. So your so called basis for the GOAT being one of the most overrated players are no better than mine for saying Safin and Seles are two of the most overrated players.
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
This. There has to be a starting point if you think someone is over or underrated. People just throw out "this person is overrated, this person is underrated" without explaining what they think the player's "rating" actually is. That initial rating is going to be subjective, but at least offer a take on what you think it is and why. I completely agree with you - Kuznetsova's initial rating seems to be not much at all - she's not lauded, she's not even talked about that much - yet she's a 2 time major winner with two additional finals. I can't see her as overrated.
Mary Pierce - also a two-time major winner (4 additional finals) seems to have a more defined platform for judging whether she's over or underrated. There's the whole idea of "peak Pierce" and the fact that she could dismantle anybody on a given day and that she played in a strong era. People still talk about her "on" performances (like the French SF v. Graf) and laud her big game, even if they acknowledge her inconsistency. Granted not everyone sees it that way, but it's an example of a "rating" that can be used to judge over/under.
Re Seles: I was a big Seles fan. I think her overrated-ness comes from the "she could have been much greater if the stabbing didn't happen" part of her fan base. It's the would of/could of/should of qualifiers that various fan bases use to envision a higher level of greatness than actually exists. And, with Seles, they think it's especially justified because what happened to her is so out of the ordinary. It wasn't a typical injury or choosing to take a sabatical or retire early, or really any "normal" reason why fan bases argue that the player could/would/should have achieved more. As a Seles fan, I don't need to go there. She won 9 Slams and achieved a lot. She's still an all-time great. Maybe the stabbing dropped her in the all-time great rankings. So be it. i just appreciate what she did accomplish.
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vaillancourt
Rookie
I agree with all of that.
Kuznetsova is a pointless poll option or vote since she is not even rated that much. If anything she might be underrated. Nobody even talks about her anymore.
The whole mythical peak Pierce thing makes her a bit overrated IMO. Yes when she was on she could beat anyone on a slower court, but theres lots of players you could say that about. Still she was scary great at times when she was on, and she did have an excellent career, so not that overrated. Maybe a bit considering she has an all time record of Round of 16 losses in slams, showing she wasnt as inconsistent or Jekyl and Hyde as betrayed, but was just often outplayed.
There are many Seles fans, and perhaps even non Seles fans who dont just argue she could have been greater than she is today without the stabbing, that is one thing. But insist she is the GOAT even today (ROTFL) or insist she rates higher all time than Graf, not as a what if but as a fact, which is preposterous. Seles is absolutely overrated, and only a Seles fan or someone stupid would deny it.
bluetrain4
G.O.A.T.
I'd agree that many Seles fans argue that she could have been greater without the stabbing (even I'd argue that). But, I don't know if there's lot of honest fans who still insist she's the GOAT or that she rates higher than Graf. I mean they do exist, but I think it's an extremely vocal, even trolling, minority who may just be trying to hate on Graf and stir things up. The most extreme viewpoints are often the loudest. Any sane person, even hard core Seles fans, know she can't be GOAT.
vaillancourt
Rookie
You underestimate just how many biased Seles fans there are, even some of the non crazy ones. There are many Seles fans who insist she IS the GOAT, even ones who dont appear crazy when they are discussing anyone other than Seles or Graf. And many some tennis fans who arent big Seles fans but buy the whole false narrative. Like I said on a major womens tennis website over 40% rated Seles as "greater" than Graf on a poll that had over a thousand voters. IMO that is absurd and clearly brands her with the overrated tag.
skaj
Legend
Polls(pl.) are just one example of many, you keep mentioning one. And then you are continuing with stabbing and Seles-Graf story which is not the topic here at all. It seems like you have some problem with Monica Seles...
When it comes to ****************.com, that website is even worse than this one when i comes to overrating Federer. It's funny how much people like to identify with the winners to feel better about their own lives, they manage to overrate a player as amazing as Roger.
As for 2005, it's a typical example of another phenomenon - short memory of tennis forum posters and fascination with the current events, it happens here also, all the time. Khachanov wins a master against the world number one and everyone predicts he will win a slam the next year; Zverev wins the atp finals against Djokovic everyone see him as the next year's number one; Djokovic saves match points at Wimbledon and everyone thinks he is 10X mentally tougher than Laver, Sampras, Borg, Nadal...
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
Yes, even the guy you're quoting underrates him - says he's a tier below Gonzales.
