Supinating in the Racquet Drop Position (Advanced Serve Technique)

[Apache1128]

Referencing this video:

I've read several threads on this topic, but I can't figure out if what Raonic is doing is a result of amazing shoulder flexibility, or if he is creating this supination somehow earlier in the chain. Has anyone looked into this and experimented with it? My service motion is pretty good, but my racquet doesn't flare out nearly to the degree that Raonic's does.

I'm 5'10" and pop serves around 110-117mph and I'm wondering if this can help me add another few mph

Thanks!

 

[Apache1128]

Seems like Djo gets into this same position. Does anyone know if they are actively getting in this position?

Here is an image of me at the same position. My racquet does not flare like that at all

Any insight is appreciated

 

[TennisDawg]

The supination is external shoulder rotation so it’s sort of like winding up the shoulder more before internal shoulder rotation more than the common racquet drop. It seems like it would result in more pop on the serve. I’ve fooled around with that a little bit but didn’t have it explained to me. Shoulder flexibility is key I think. Great post thanks

 

[5263]

The supination is external shoulder rotation so it’s sort of like winding up the shoulder more before internal shoulder rotation more than the common racquet drop. It seems like it would result in more pop on the serve. I’ve fooled around with that a little bit but didn’t have it explained to me. Shoulder flexibility is key I think. Great post thanks

I teach it thru timing the quarter shoulder turn during the racket drop, which tends to flip the racket head out when done at normal play speed.

 

[Apache1128]

Just wanted to provide a short update: I went to the courts this morning and attempted this "flare out" swing. I could do it slowly, but as soon as I tried to speed up, it disappeared. I'm inclined to think that this racquet "flare out" is more a function of shoulder flexibility.

One other thought is elbow height. Djokovic gets his elbow quite a bit higher than I do which would allow for greater supination "racquet flare".

Any thoughts appreciated

 

[austintennis2005]

Seems like Djo gets into this same position. Does anyone know if they are actively getting in this position?

Here is an image of me at the same position. My racquet does not flare like that at all

Any insight is appreciated

What do you exactly mean by “flare”

 

[tendency]

Seems like Djo gets into this same position. Does anyone know if they are actively getting in this position?

Here is an image of me at the same position. My racquet does not flare like that at all

Any insight is appreciated

you're already doing it - just do more of it - lol (however keep in mind djoke and most pros have exceptional shoulder flexibility).

also, your ball toss is too far to the right if you're hitting a flat serve.

 

[Apache1128]

you're already doing it - just do more of it - lol (however keep in mind djoke and most pros have exceptional shoulder flexibility).

also, your ball toss is too far to the right if you're hitting a flat serve.

Oops I replied to the wrong person here

 

[Apache1128]

What do you exactly mean by “flare”

Check the video in the initial post. He does a great job explaining it

 

[Digital Atheist]

Seems like Djo gets into this same position. Does anyone know if they are actively getting in this position?

I think you already know the answer. Consider this; if it were a deliberate consciously learned action that resulted in greater serve power (a highly contentious and debatable concept in itself) then many more ATP professionals would be doing it, and we know Raonic is the general exception. However, imo your joker frame is more an example of what most pros do, since that frame closely resembles the Murray comparison provided in the video.

None of them flare nearly as much as Raonic but to bring this back to your serve, your serve frame is slightly off what most pros are doing. Examine the overall swing path and where your racquet is coming from, compared to any ATP pro. It looks like your racquet position (relative to the ball) is approaching from the inside in a linear fashion, probably coming from the centre of your back at your deepest drop point. That is also accentuated by the ball toss position, which someone else mentioned. There is some guesswork involved there and a video would show much more. Almost all ATP servers have their racquet outside the ball position at some stage and have a version of this flare (the joker still you selected is a good example of this, as is the Murray freeze frame from the linked video) and then they use ISR and pronation to get the racquet square.

It's not hard to reach a similar position to Murray or Joker or Dimitrov if other things are done correctly (and no you cannot just "fake it" as you have discovered). I did a comparison of myself to Kyrgios for Chas quite a long time ago, don't remember why but here is an example of coming from outside the ball and squaring the racquet up quickly.

But none of that flare (the second frame for both myself and Kyrgios being another good example) is consciously being done and it happens from things previously executed by the body.

If you are only 5'10" and it is true that you can consistently hit 110-117mph in match play then why do you even care about this flare thing? Much better to focus on accuracy and disguise, unless there are some technical glitches in your motion. And even then, I highly doubt a lack of flare is what will need fixing.

Anyway, have you seen this? Seems Sinner has gone back to pinpoint and with much less flare, yet everyone (including Djokovic) says he is serving better now.

Edit: So i found this:

I wouldn't worry too much about the flare thing. My suspicion about your path to approach was correct, but it doesn't look like a major problem and I would instead focus on accuracy, disguise, and making a high %age of first serves.

 

[tendency]

Edit: So i found this:

I wouldn't worry too much about the flare thing. My suspicion about your path to approach was correct, but it doesn't look like a major problem and I would instead focus on accuracy, disguise, and making a high %age of first serves.

This youtube 'Aaron' vid is the ops serve? If so, OP you're done, finito lol. Was your original post a serious question? Move on from being concerned with minor technical differences in your serve from the pros. You have a great motion. As DA mentioned focus on consistency and placement etc.

 

[Apache1128]

Thank you for the replies everyone. I know that in a match that placement and consistency are more important.

My secret goal is to hit a 120mph serve just once in my life. I'm very close, but can't find the last 3-6mph.

Here are my serves from 2 days ago:

Normal Speed Example:

Slow Motion Example:

I was hoping this racquet "flare out" could help me find the last few mph. Maybe the correct question is "Does anyone see how I can add 5-6 mph to my serve" lol

I really like the post you made Digital Atheist. I understand using ISR to snap the racquet back, but I'm still not sure how you got the racquet in that position in the first place. I'll read your post a few more times and keep thinking on it. Let me know if you all have any feedback.

 

[Apache1128]

Here are a couple more examples:
Again, my main goal is to find 120mph somehow. Let me know if you see anything worth trying.

113MPH Normal Speed:

Slow Motion:

One thing I'm curious about is shoulder tilt. The examples Digital Atheist gave above all have pretty extreme tilt when launching up to the ball. Mine looks pretty lacking in comparison.

 

[Digital Atheist]

I really like the post you made Digital Atheist. I understand using ISR to snap the racquet back, but I'm still not sure how you got the racquet in that position in the first place. I'll read your post a few more times and keep thinking on it. Let me know if you all have any feedback.

Thanks. For me, the racquet just ends up there when trying to smack the ball. I don't think it's a big deal at all given your serve speeds as long as accuracy and good percentages are in play. Others may disagree, but you come up relatively on edge and that is more important than a large flare. The problem is, even for someone like Sinner, there are obvious variations based on his footwork preference (platform vs pinpoint). But I also understand the goal, and what you are trying to do. I top out a little over 110 using the frame counter so I can't really help you with the last 3 or 4 miles. Maybe string 5 or 10lbs looser and see how it goes?

One thing I'm curious about is shoulder tilt. The examples Digital Atheist gave above all have pretty extreme tilt when launching up to the ball. Mine looks pretty lacking in comparison.

Camera angles are very tricky and often deceptive. Your tilt looks decent to me, but the thing that can help is using a slight sidebend (to the left at the hip, which is quite visible in the montage I posted of myself and Kyrgios; although it can be overdone and I am guilty of that when my toss wanders). Not everyone does that, and servers like Medvedev are more like you. Your serve reminds me a LOT of Tomas Etcheverry. so take a look at him in detail. If you can find any high fps video examine that and compare, but even something like this is a start (1080p@60fps timestamped @18:06):

But dude, you gotta get rid of that weird thing you do at the start (PLEASE!!!!). That's my only criticism. Good luck with the 120 challenge.

 

[Funbun]

I think if you tossed a bit more at 12 o'clock, you'll get your 120 mph. You're currently tossing a bit far to the right and attempting to flatten it from that contact point, which may contribute to a loss of power. The Kyrgios and Djokovic pictures have their toss more above their shoulder, whereas your toss is well to the right of it.

Your racquet position is probably a result of compensating for the toss location.

Otherwise, your serve motion is excellent, and I like your windup actually.

 

[Apache1128]

Quick update: I tried to make some of the adjustments that Funbun and Digital Atheist suggested. I placed the toss over my right shoulder and tried to really contract my left obliques to slingshot my right shoulder up (taking inspiration from the shoulder tilt pictures). You can see in the video that some of that "racquet flare" shows up

118MPH

I had 4 serves today at 119mph, but I was spraying those so didn't include them here

So close

 

[Chas Tennis]

Referencing this video:

I've read several threads on this topic, but I can't figure out if what Raonic is doing is a result of amazing shoulder flexibility, or if he is creating this supination somehow earlier in the chain. Has anyone looked into this and experimented with it? My service motion is pretty good, but my racquet doesn't flare out nearly to the degree that Raonic's does.

I'm 5'10" and pop serves around 110-117mph and I'm wondering if this can help me add another few mph

Thanks!

In the OP video, showing the hand and racket paths at 2:29, the court lines are viewed by the cameras from two different angles. If you want to compare two serve videos, the camera angles should be very similar as well as type of serve, trajectory of served balls, and other details.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Here are a couple more examples:
Again, my main goal is to find 120mph somehow. Let me know if you see anything worth trying.

113MPH Normal Speed:

Slow Motion:

One thing I'm curious about is shoulder tilt. The examples Digital Atheist gave above all have pretty extreme tilt when launching up to the ball. Mine looks pretty lacking in comparison.

Don't compare videos taken from two different camera heights.

 

[Apache1128]

Don't compare videos taken from two different camera heights.

Chas,

I saw in another post you made you talked about breaking eye contact with the ball at the last second and looking forward. I had also noticed this in slow motion ATP serve videos. I did try that a little bit today, but it was difficult to pull off. Did you have any updated thoughts on that? In your previous post, you made it sound like it was an "area of interest" but it was not conclusive yet.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Chas,

I saw in another post you made you talked about breaking eye contact with the ball at the last second and looking forward. I had also noticed this in slow motion ATP serve videos. I did try that a little bit today, but it was difficult to pull off. Did you have any updated thoughts on that? In your previous post, you made it sound like it was an "area of interest" but it was not conclusive yet.

It was a statistical observation from looking at numbers of ATP servers. Most, not all, had broken off eye contact before ball impact. It conflicted with what most posters on the forum say and maybe many internet sources. I posted it often after I first looked at a number of ATP players.

Anyone that observes 10 or more ATP servers randomly selected from the top 100, should see the same thing. (quick stats)

Since the kick serve is impacted over the head, you will observe this more often there (but some kick servers, like Stosur, have their head forward on its side and that may allow them to watch impact. ? I don't see the ball for my weak kick serve and it was not hard to do. (But high level servers do not toss the ball 'over their head for the kick serve', they toss the ball and then move their heads forward to impact it over their heads.) This seems to conflict with the arm, racket shaft & head tilted closed 12-15 degrees for the kick serve first touch, that I also believe. ? That needs a correction somewhere...........

See my Stosur kick serve video and still with 13 degree closed racket at impact.

What you believe is very important and you should have evidence for what you believe.

 

[Chas Tennis]

You need to do comparisons.

We can do frame-by-frame comparisons one above the other on the forum using Youtubes or Vimeos.

For accuracy, compare videos with very similar camera angles. To single frame on Youtube, go full screen, stop video, use the period & comma keys. Go to impact frame and single frame back & forth. Compare frames with most similar racket and ball positions. If the recording frame rates are similar that is even better. To switch Youtube videos, always select video using alt key + left mouse click, otherwise the video starts playing. Make a note for each difference that you observe. (If you do not want to post on the forum you can use Conversation. Have a friend sign up and you can do comparisons without posting public on the forum.)

I notice that you stop & pause at Trophy Position. Often that is associated with timing a high toss. ATP players may stop, pause or move through TP and build speed to help muscle stretch. Some power servers will hit a very low toss. Sam Groth, Ivancevic, Roscoe Tanner

I have posted many comparisons.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/index.php?search/5912249/&q=comparing+videos+on+above+the+other&c[users]=Chas+Tennis&o=relevance

Pick other serves and post your own comparisons. Forum limit is 5 videos per post.

To do comparisons and analyses on your computer use Kinovea, a free, open source video analysis app. Lots of capabilities.

You should be aware of Ellenbecker's advice on limiting the shoulder angle (video Rotator Cuff Injury). I just posted on that a day or two ago.

 

[austintennis2005]

Did sampras have the flare like Raonic?

 

[Apache1128]

Woke up and my left ribs and obliques are sore and killing me . Apparently I've not used those muscles for the service motion.

Just wanted to check to make sure I am on the right track - It is correct form to:

(For a right hander)
1. Tuck the left arm
2. Contract the left obliques and ribs hard (which creates side bend)
3. Which creates a slingshot effect with the right shoulder and arm

Is that correct technique?

Thanks!

 

[5263]

Check the video in the initial post. He does a great job explaining it

I don't think he does explain it that well or understand what its really about. He does do a nice job with the video though and is a very sharp coach that I've spoken with on several issues. Like many who study video, he noticed something that seemed to be unique. Really the only unique thing here is more related to the amplitude of the technique displayed here although Pete may have done even a bigger version in his day. So there is really nothing unique here and If the old threads are available, you can likely find where I described this on here in the 2005-07 time frame and was teaching this to my oldest son (who was a massive server) back around 1997 on forward. I learned it from study of Pete Sampras on tennisone.com back in the mid 90s and don't imagine I was the 1st either. Pete also did this with more amplitude than his peers in general and I mostly have referred to it as the "lasso move". Notice how you can create this technique by treating your racket a bit like throwing a lasso with a rope. Most of the best servers use this to a greater or lesser extent.

Next point Imo is that this is not nearly so much about power or serve speed as it is about racket orientation for contact (4th element of the Serve Code) and protecting or prepping the shoulder during aggressive acceleration. This Lasso move gives you a much better path to the best racket orientation and acceleration path, with the least stress on your shoulder area. When done well it tends to allow for a much freer flow to the motion for easy power, while giving a very precise attack on the right portion of the ball for contact...

 

[Digital Atheist]

Woke up and my left ribs and obliques are sore and killing me . Apparently I've not used those muscles for the service motion.

Just wanted to check to make sure I am on the right track - It is correct form to:

(For a right hander)
1. Tuck the left arm
2. Contract the left obliques and ribs hard (which creates side bend)
3. Which creates a slingshot effect with the right shoulder and arm

Is that correct technique?

Thanks!

I don't think number 2 should be done too aggressively and your sidebend in the new video looked good to me (not excessive but more than previous for sure); it's done more out of necessity when the toss is in the 12 or 1, which also results in those other things you were after (better tilt & more flare). Maybe it IS because you don't normally use that muscle group, so just play it by ear and let it get better first. If it eventually subsides and you can keep serving the new way then all good, but if it keeps coming back repeatedly then maybe something is wrong?? Perhaps start by not trying to hit bombs but ease into it with a more gentle serving session, at least until you get used to it (now that you know it does give you a bit more pop).

 

[Apache1128]

I don't think number 2 should be done too aggressively and your sidebend in the new video looked good to me (not excessive but more than previous for sure); it's done more out of necessity when the toss is in the 12 or 1, which also results in those other things you were after (better tilt & more flare). Maybe it IS because you don't normally use that muscle group, so just play it by ear and let it get better first. If it eventually subsides and you can keep serving the new way then all good, but if it keeps coming back repeatedly then maybe something is wrong?? Perhaps start by not trying to hit bombs but ease into it with a more gentle serving session, at least until you get used to it (now that you know it does give you a bit more pop).

Thanks for the reply. I am pretty sure it's just muscular pain, I was not using that muscle group for serving. I am excited to try using the same oblique contraction for some spin serves next!

 

[austintennis2005]

I don't think he does explain it that well or understand what its really about. He does do a nice job with the video though and is a very sharp coach that I've spoken with on several issues. Like many who study video, he noticed something that seemed to be unique. Really the only unique thing here is more related to the amplitude of the technique displayed here although Pete may have done even a bigger version in his day. So there is really nothing unique here and If the old threads are available, you can likely find where I described this on here in the 2005-07 time frame and was teaching this to my oldest son (who was a massive server) back around 1997 on forward. I learned it from study of Pete Sampras on tennisone.com back in the mid 90s and don't imagine I was the 1st either. Pete also did this with more amplitude than his peers in general and I mostly have referred to it as the "lasso move". Notice how you can create this technique by treating your racket a bit like throwing a lasso with a rope. Most of the best servers use this to a greater or lesser extent.

Next point Imo is that this is not nearly so much about power or serve speed as it is about racket orientation for contact (4th element of the Serve Code) and protecting or prepping the shoulder during aggressive acceleration. This Lasso move gives you a much better path to the best racket orientation and acceleration path, with the least stress on your shoulder area. When done well it tends to allow for a much freer flow to the motion for easy power, while giving a very precise attack on the right portion of the ball for contact...

Is there any way to find the old tennisone info or your posts from 05-07?

 

[TennisDawg]

Thank you for the replies everyone. I know that in a match that placement and consistency are more important.

My secret goal is to hit a 120mph serve just once in my life. I'm very close, but can't find the last 3-6mph.

Here are my serves from 2 days ago:

Normal Speed Example:

Slow Motion Example:

I was hoping this racquet "flare out" could help me find the last few mph. Maybe the correct question is "Does anyone see how I can add 5-6 mph to my serve" lol

I really like the post you made Digital Atheist. I understand using ISR to snap the racquet back, but I'm still not sure how you got the racquet in that position in the first place. I'll read your post a few more times and keep thinking on it. Let me know if you all have any feedback.

Possibly a bit more shoulder rotation. It looks very powerful right now, if you are able to accurately place that serve it would very hard to break it. I would bet not many on this forum has a serve like that.

 

[TennisDawg]

Woke up and my left ribs and obliques are sore and killing me . Apparently I've not used those muscles for the service motion.

Just wanted to check to make sure I am on the right track - It is correct form to:

(For a right hander)
1. Tuck the left arm
2. Contract the left obliques and ribs hard (which creates side bend)
3. Which creates a slingshot effect with the right shoulder and arm

Is that correct technique?

Thanks!

I didn’t see the side view but if you’re able to tilt the shoulders by stretching the left side obliques and lats on the ball toss combined with the shoulder rotation that may add more MPH.

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Seems like Djo gets into this same position. Does anyone know if they are actively getting in this position?

Here is an image of me at the same position. My racquet does not flare like that at all

Any insight is appreciated

Perhaps this video will help

I was wondering the exact same thing

 

[Daniel Andrade]

Also, do you accept recommendations that don't involve serve technique?

3 Ways Off-Court Training Can Improve Your Serve

Finally, after more than 15 years, I can hit a powerful serve. I always wanted to hit a big serve. The problem was…my timing wasn’t great, I couldn’t generate any power and I often had an achy shoulder. That’s all changed now. I went from a 100mph serve to consistently hitting between 110-120mph.

www.mattspoint.com

 

[Apache1128]

Also, do you accept recommendations that don't involve serve technique?

3 Ways Off-Court Training Can Improve Your Serve

Finally, after more than 15 years, I can hit a powerful serve. I always wanted to hit a big serve. The problem was…my timing wasn’t great, I couldn’t generate any power and I often had an achy shoulder. That’s all changed now. I went from a 100mph serve to consistently hitting between 110-120mph.

www.mattspoint.com

Absolutely! Much appreciated. I am carefully going through the site and video you sent. I spend good time in the gym, but this link gives good focus and direction for serve specifically

 

[Apache1128]

I didn’t see the side view but if you’re able to tilt the shoulders by stretching the left side obliques and lats on the ball toss combined with the shoulder rotation that may add more MPH.

Thank you, I will try this in my next session and get a side video as well

 

[TennisDawg]

Perhaps this video will help

I was wondering the exact same thing

Even though it’s a long video, this is worth watching. I like that it’s mainly shadow swings to get the muscle memory down. So much I didn’t know about the racquet drop and elbow.

 

[5263]

Is there any way to find the old tennisone info or your posts from 05-07?

this forum has a search function, but not sure how far it goes back or how well it works... I've had limited success finding old threads... one big problem we had was where we would have very popular long threads, choked full of great debate... then someone would complain and have the whole thing removed and lost forever.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Nikola from Intuitive Tennis says we are stronger when contact point is more towards 12 o'clock.
Experiment with that contact point. Move it over to the left. Try it. This tweak might give you more mph.

Also check if your hand is below the elbow. This is a function of External Shoulder Rotation and will depend on your shoulder flexibility.
Federer has less flexibility than Wawrinka and his hand is about even with elbow. Vast majority of rec players would be happy to get hand even with elbow.
But Wawrinka is preferred if you have the flexibility.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

The supination is external shoulder rotation so it’s sort of like winding up the shoulder more before internal shoulder rotation more than the common racquet drop. It seems like it would result in more pop on the serve. I’ve fooled around with that a little bit but didn’t have it explained to me. Shoulder flexibility is key I think. Great post thanks

@Apache1128

Just to be clear: Supination and ESR are not the same thing. Supination is a rotation of the forearm (or foot) while ESR is a rotation of the shoulder.

It is possible to externally rotate the shoulder (ESR) while simultaneously pronating the forearm (the forearm rotation opposite of supination)

 

[Apache1128]

@Apache1128

Just to be clear: Supination and ESR are not the same thing. Supination is a rotation of the forearm (or foot) while ESR is a rotation of the shoulder.

It is possible to externally rotate the shoulder (ESR) while simultaneously pronating the forearm (the forearm rotation opposite of supination)

@SystemicAnomaly - This is actually really interesting. When you watch the initial video I linked, are you thinking that Raonic is supinating his forearm before contact and Federer is not?

I tried shadow swinging a bit and intentionally supinating the forearm in that drop position, but I think it put quite a bit of pressure on my inner "golfer's elbow" area

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

I do not see how it is possible to perform external shoulder rotation (ESR) while pronating the forearm.
Particularly in the context of a tennis serve.
From trophy position to racquet drop, the motion is ESR+supination.
From racquet drop to contact, the motion is ISR+pronation.

Try to shadow swing ESR+pronation and it will feel like your arm is about to break!! OUCH!

Have also confirmed this with AI Bard.

Is it possible to externally rotate the shoulder while simultaneously pronating the forearm?

Answer:

No, it is not possible to externally rotate the shoulder while simultaneously pronating the forearm. The two movements are biomechanically incompatible.

External rotation of the shoulder is achieved by the action of the infraspinatus and teres minor muscles. These muscles pull the humerus (upper arm bone) outward and backward, rotating the shoulder joint externally.

Pronation of the forearm, on the other hand, is achieved by the action of the pronator teres and pronator quadratus muscles. These muscles pull the radius bone (forearm bone) across the ulna bone (forearm bone), rotating the forearm so that the palm faces down.

The two movements are incompatible because the muscles that cause external rotation of the shoulder (infraspinatus and teres minor) also contribute to supination of the forearm. When these muscles contract, they pull on the humerus in a way that rotates the shoulder externally and the forearm supinately.

Therefore, it is not possible to externally rotate the shoulder while simultaneously pronating the forearm. The two movements are mutually exclusive.

Here is a summary of the possible combinations of shoulder rotation and forearm pronation/supination:

• Internal rotation of the shoulder: The forearm can be pronated or supinated simultaneously.
• External rotation of the shoulder: The forearm can only be supinated. Pronation is not possible.

This is because the muscles that cause internal rotation of the shoulder (subscapularis) do not interfere with the muscles that cause pronation or supination of the forearm. However, the muscles that cause external rotation of the shoulder (infraspinatus and teres minor) interfere with the muscles that cause pronation of the forearm (pronator teres and pronator quadratus). As a result, external rotation and pronation cannot occur simultaneously.

I believe @Chas Tennis will agree with this?

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I do not see how it is possible to perform external shoulder rotation (ESR) while pronating the forearm.
Particularly in the context of a tennis serve.
From trophy position to racquet drop, the motion is ESR+supination.
From racquet drop to contact, the motion is ISR+pronation.

Try to shadow swing ESR+pronation and it will feel like your arm is about to break!! OUCH!

Have also confirmed this with AI Bard.

Is it possible to externally rotate the shoulder while simultaneously pronating the forearm?

Answer:

No, it is not possible to externally rotate the shoulder while simultaneously pronating the forearm. The two movements are biomechanically incompatible.

External rotation of the shoulder is achieved by the action of the infraspinatus and teres minor muscles. These muscles pull the humerus (upper arm bone) outward and backward, rotating the shoulder joint externally.

Pronation of the forearm, on the other hand, is achieved by the action of the pronator teres and pronator quadratus muscles. These muscles pull the radius bone (forearm bone) across the ulna bone (forearm bone), rotating the forearm so that the palm faces down.

The two movements are incompatible because the muscles that cause external rotation of the shoulder (infraspinatus and teres minor) also contribute to supination of the forearm. When these muscles contract, they pull on the humerus in a way that rotates the shoulder externally and the forearm supinately.

Therefore, it is not possible to externally rotate the shoulder while simultaneously pronating the forearm. The two movements are mutually exclusive.

Here is a summary of the possible combinations of shoulder rotation and forearm pronation/supination:

• Internal rotation of the shoulder: The forearm can be pronated or supinated simultaneously.
• External rotation of the shoulder: The forearm can only be supinated. Pronation is not possible.

This is because the muscles that cause internal rotation of the shoulder (subscapularis) do not interfere with the muscles that cause pronation or supination of the forearm. However, the muscles that cause external rotation of the shoulder (infraspinatus and teres minor) interfere with the muscles that cause pronation of the forearm (pronator teres and pronator quadratus). As a result, external rotation and pronation cannot occur simultaneously.

I believe @Chas Tennis will agree with this?

Pray tell, who is this Al Bard? U of Texas chemist? Regardless, I’m afraid that your Mr Bard is incorrect about this. I doubt that @Chas Tennis would agree with you after reading my explanation here.

Note that I'm not saying that ESR and pronation occurs simultaneously during the tennis serve. What I am saying is that forearm rotation and shoulder rotation can be performed independently. Furthermore, either pronation or supination of the forearm can occur while externally rotating the shoulder

While it might be very difficult to accomplish this with a straight arm, it can be easily done with the elbow bent at 90° (or other angles). Refer to the images above for the following explanation.

With the shoulder held static in either position shown above, this person should be able to rotate the forearm & weight in either direction -- pronation or supination -- w/o rotating the upper arm. She should also be able to perform either of these forearm rotations while externally rotating the shoulder (& upper arm). Ditto while executing ISR.

Try this for yourself. Not that difficult.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

@SystemicAnomaly - This is actually really interesting. When you watch the initial video I linked, are you thinking that Raonic is supinating his forearm before contact and Federer is not?

I tried shadow swinging a bit and intentionally supinating the forearm in that drop position, but I think it put quite a bit of pressure on my inner "golfer's elbow" area

Before contact? You mean for the drop and start of the upward swing? Yes, Raonic does appear to load his forearm with an added supination. This is released later in the upward when he pronates the forearm (along with internally rotating the shoulder).

It could very well be that the extra "flare out" is due, in part, to the extreme shoulder tilt that Raonic employs in addition to some added forearm supination.

Is your grip still relaxed during the drop and start of the upward swing? If it's too tight at that point, you might feel that GE pressure. Grip force should not increase until the latter part of the upward swing.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Try this for yourself. Not that difficult.

Yes, that is true... And yes I am aware that you are speaking generally and not necessarily referring to the serve...
Will have to think more about this. But one comment for now:

I suspect that the restriction (when attempting ESR + pronation) is not just limited to when arm is in a straight arm position.
The average ROM for ESR is 90-110 degrees. Even with elbow flexed at 90 degrees, and attempting ESR + pronation, there will be some severe restriction when approaching ~90 degrees ESR. ESR feels stuck if forearm is pronated. But if performing ESR+supination there will be several degrees more ESR and consequently far more shoulder stretch.

That end range of motion for ESR is the critical phase that primarily stretches the shoulder muscles.


Let's check with AI Bard:

Yes, you're on the right track! During the tennis serve motion, the stretch and loading of the shoulder muscles typically occur from the trophy position to the racket drop position. At the trophy position, the external shoulder rotation (ESR) usually ranges from around 90 to 100 degrees, as the arm is positioned in a relatively high but not extreme external rotation.

As the racket drops from the trophy position to initiate the serve, there's a slight increase in the external shoulder rotation. This increase in rotation may bring the ESR to approximately 100 to 110 degrees as the shoulder undergoes further movement, preparing for the forward swing and generating power for the serve.

So, the stretch and loading of the shoulder muscles indeed progress from the trophy position to the racket drop position, with a moderate increase in external shoulder rotation occurring during this phase of the serve.

You are correct that the external shoulder rotation (ESR) at trophy position in a tennis serve is approximately 90 degrees. As the racquet drops from trophy, the ESR can reach up to 105 degrees. This is because the muscles of the shoulder are stretched and then recoil, providing a powerful whip-like motion to the racquet head.

Here is a more detailed breakdown of the ESR at different points in the tennis serve:

Backswing: The ESR is close to 0 degrees at the start of the backswing. As the arm is raised, the ESR increases to around 60 degrees.
Unit turn: The ESR continues to increase during the unit turn, reaching around 90 degrees at trophy position.
Dropping racquet: As the racquet drops from trophy position, the ESR can reach up to 110 degrees. This is due to the stretch-shortening cycle of the shoulder muscles.

While the shoulder is in a position of external rotation at the trophy stance, the substantial loading and stretching of the shoulder muscles typically occur as the racket drops from the trophy position to initiate the serve.

The trophy position sets the stage for the serve and places the shoulder in a high external rotation, but the significant loading and stretch of the shoulder muscles occur during the transition from the trophy position to the racket drop. This phase allows for an increased stretch of the muscles involved in generating power for the serve, especially in the shoulder and torso, as the body begins to engage in the kinetic chain for the serve's power generation.

Therefore, the most substantial loading and stretch of the shoulder muscles usually occur during the motion from the trophy position to the racket drop, allowing for the optimal utilization of the body's kinetic energy and the generation of power in the tennis serve.

 

[legcramp]

I always thought that if your arm is not tight and gripping the handle, that when you go into trophy pose the weight of the racquet pretty much drops itself and then you have to sling it back up into the ball.

 

[Chas Tennis]

Do not leave out Thoracic Extension as it will shorten the distance between the origins of the lat (on the back) and its insertion on the humerus (upper arm). The lat is the biggest muscle used for Internal Shoulder Rotation.

Changing the distance between the origins and insertion of a muscle affects the stretch of the muscles with those origins and insertions as discussed in the thread. It can also directly move the joint.

Forum Search or Google: Thoracic Extension and the Spine during the Tennis Serve. Chas Tennis

If anyone finds a biomechanical description of Thoracic Extension and its use during the tennis serve, please post it in the Thoracic Extension .......& the Serve thread.

I think that Thoracic Extension may be the most important secret left for the tennis serve. ?

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Do not leave out Thoracic Extension as it will shorten the distance between the origins of the lat (on the back) and its insertion on the humerus (upper arm). The lat is the biggest muscle used for Internal Shoulder Rotation.

I do indeed notice a significant difference when incorporating Thoracic Extension.
Also when I move the contact point above the right shoulder. Coach Nikola says we are stronger at this position. Similar to a pull up; easier when hands are closer together

Draw a line thru the right shoulder to observe the contact point.
Is this a useful reference?

 

[Chas Tennis]

I do indeed notice a significant difference when incorporating Thoracic Extension.
Also when I move the contact point above the right shoulder. Coach Nikola says we are stronger at this position. Similar to a pull up; easier when hands are closer together

Draw a line thru the right shoulder to observe the contact point.
Is this a useful reference?

Search my many posts on Todd Ellenbecker's video Rotator Cuff Injury.

I do not consider Federer an ideal example for the upper arm orientation. Upper arm may sometimes be at too high an angle in my opinion.

Injuries are an uncertain subject, find professional sources of information.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

Search my many posts on Todd Ellenbecker's video Rotator Cuff Injury.

I do not consider Federer an ideal example for the upper arm orientation. Upper arm may sometimes be at too high an angle in my opinion.

Injuries are an uncertain subject, find professional sources of information.

I believe that frame 1 Kyrgios is in the so-called "cocking" position.

From frame 1 to frame 2 the motion is Internal Shoulder Rotation. Not External Rotation. Correct?

ISR usually coincides with pronation in context of tennis serve. But it is definitely possible for supination to coincide with ISR. Much easier to perform (ISR + supination) than (ESR + pronation)during a service motion.

And I think this ISR+Supination(if that is indeed the motion between frame 1 and frame 2) is what the OP is referring to by "flaring".

Is there any way to tell whether the motion from Frame 1 to Frame 2 motion is ISR+Pronation or ISR+Supination?

 

[AnyPUG]

I think that Thoracic Extension may be the most important secret left for the tennis serve. ?

The biggest secret is the power of meditation which has given Djokovic "unfair" advantage.
He has pioneered the use of regular meditation to improve neuroplasticity. Through meditation, one can influence the mind to make positive long-lasting changes in the neuronal pathways of the brain. It results in quick reaction, better targetting, more focus and less stress.

 

[Chas Tennis]

I believe that frame 1 Kyrgios is in the so-called "cocking" position.

From frame 1 to frame 2 the motion is Internal Shoulder Rotation. Not External Rotation. Correct?

ISR usually coincides with pronation in context of tennis serve. But it is definitely possible for supination to coincide with ISR. Much easier to perform (ISR + supination) than (ESR + pronation)during a service motion.

And I think this ISR+Supination(if that is indeed the motion between frame 1 and frame 2) is what the OP is referring to by "flaring".

Is there any way to tell whether the motion from Frame 1 to Frame 2 motion is ISR+Pronation or ISR+Supination?

ISR shows itself by shadows of bones and a few tendon to bone connections in lighting that is favorable to showing the shadows of high & low points. To observe ISR look for videos that have clear and sharp shadows and are close-ups of the elbow area with shadows. Feel your elbow. I have a thread/post discussing how to directly observe your ISR with video. Showing a player's full height and the toss does not show the elbow in enough magnification to observe ISR. Besides high frame rate, 240 fps or more, you need a very fast shutter speed to reduce motion blur.

Here is a video showing some of the rotating elbow structures that indicate ISR.

Go full screen, stop video, and use the period & comma keys.

Lower quality video.

Sharper video.

 

[Better_Call_Raul]

ISR shows itself by shadows of bones and a few tendon to bone connections in lighting that is favorable to showing the shadows of high & low points. To observe ISR look for videos that have clear and sharp shadows and are close-ups of the elbow area with shadows. I have a thread/post discussing how to directly observe your ISR with video. Showing a player's full height and the toss does not show the elbow in enough magnification to observe ISR. Besides high frame rate, 240 fps or more, you need a very fast shutter speed to reduce motion blur.

Here is a video showing some of the rotating elbow structures that indicate ISR.

Go full screen, stop video, and use the period & comma keys.

Lower quality video.

Sharper video.

Ok will examine the shadows.

Also, I'm general, if we take the beginning of the Monfils video as reference Frame 1, can we say that it is moving from an externally rotated position to a less externally rotated position all the way the until contact? In other words, every frame in that Monfils is ISR? Or is it possible to still move in the ESR direction after Frame 1?