TennisDawg
Hall of Fame
I can’t imagine trying to externally rotate the shoulder while simultaneously pronating the forearm during the serve.
Supinating in the Racquet Drop Position (Advanced Serve Technique)
- Thread starter Apache1128
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
I try to stick with videos where two people can look at the video frames and come up with an answer.
We have a problem on the forum and for tennis strokes of trying to translate videos into words because a few words are easier to remember. But words are so often misleading that I switched to videos some years ago for stroke descriptions. In place of remembering a few simple misleading words, I view videos and worry about interpreting them.....
You can search for the joint motions in Youtubes. Remember that to display the joint motions, they isolate that one defined joint motion and make it obvious. Search for ISR and ERS videos and see how they isolate the ISR & ESR. Then you will know what the joint motion is. If the elbow is bent or straight it make no difference to ISR or ESR, but it makes things obvious to the person with the bent elbow, the Dr or the physical therapist. Learn those teaching and medical joint measurement isolation methods and then try to evaluate what you are seeing in stroke videos. Those isolations make measurement easy but tennis strokes with other body configurations make measurements from videos often difficult.
A ball joint, like the shoulder joint, can do more than one joint motion at a time.
Also, be aware that defined joint motions are used for joint motion and also independently used for angle. For example, a joint may BOTH be in an angle of ESR relative to a defined "0" degrees and also be doing ISR (going in the direction of maximum ISR).
Joint motion measurements were somewhat medically originated, measuring joint motions to evaluate injuries, isolate the joint and measure its motion as it heals. This measurement system gets tricky when applied to extreme motions that a baseball pitcher applies to their ESR & ISR. Search pictures of baseball pitchers. The baseball pitchers and tennis servers increase their ranges of joint motions beyond the normal......... Search GIRD.
Google: Baseball Pitchers pitching pictures
Google Images: baseball pitching
Google Scholar: baseball pitching biomechanics
Google Scholar: baseball pitching joint motions
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Try to do it with elbow at 90 d..
Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
Video observation is a very useful tool. No doubt about it. It is true.
But sometimes it is far easier to have a checkpoint than it is to examine the shadows and nuances of a slow motion video.
For example, every player reaches the so-called cocking phase. The cocking phase is when the shoulder is in the maximally externally rotated position.
This serves as a very useful starting point for video analysis. Now we know that every frame after the cocking stage, as in the Monfils video is ISR.
Four phases during high speed serve:
(I) backswing,
(II) maximum external shoulder rotation
(III) ball impact and
(IV) maximum internal shoulder rotation (from left to right).
The upper series displays the frontal view, the lower series the corresponding lateral view.
Critical muscle forces are hypothesized to occur at phase (II) maximum external shoulder rotation and at phase (III) ball impact.
As illustrated through the red axes, the humerus remains aligned with the shoulders throughout the entire serve indicating that forces are generated primarily through a rotational motion.
SystemicAnomaly
Bionic Poster
Not the point I was making. I didn't say that these 2 actions necessarily happened at the same time during the serve. My point was that ESR and Supination are not the same thing. Not only are they not the same, it is possible to pronate (anti-supinate) the forearm while externally rotating the shoulder.
TennisDawg
Hall of Fame
TennisDawg
Hall of Fame
Understand but to the point of the thread I still see how supinating while simultaneously doing ESR can possibly result in more serve mph. Probably not like a 6 foot plus plus Raonic but for the OP who already has a decent serve motion. I have fooled with this in the past but one little tweak can have negative results especially with the serve.
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
A camera angle viewing along the path of the hand going away from the camera might be useful for viewing supination.
Signature of Tennis Serve
For the video, search the Youtubes of Anatoly Antipin.
To single frame on Youtube, go full screen, stop video and use the period & comma keys.
Note also the angles between the hand path, racket head path ..S.. and ball trajectory ( Hand path more to the side than I once thought for many years.)
Signature of Tennis Serve
For the video, search the Youtubes of Anatoly Antipin.
To single frame on Youtube, go full screen, stop video and use the period & comma keys.
Note also the angles between the hand path, racket head path ..S.. and ball trajectory ( Hand path more to the side than I once thought for many years.)
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Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
FYI, there is a problem in measuring ISR using multi-camera motion capture systems. (Thought to be a 'Gold Standard').
See thread
B. Gordon's criticism of motion capture systems - There are large errors in the best of ISR measurements.
The Most Important Publication on the Tennis Serve
In every field of study, certain publications have significantly changed understanding. This is the most important publication for the tennis serve. Long-axis rotation: The missing link in proximal-to-distal segmental sequencing (2000) Robert N. Marshall, Bruce C. Elliott...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
The Most Important Publication on the Tennis Serve
In every field of study, certain publications have significantly changed understanding. This is the most important publication for the tennis serve. Long-axis rotation: The missing link in proximal-to-distal segmental sequencing (2000) Robert N. Marshall, Bruce C. Elliott...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
The Most Important Publication on the Tennis Serve
In every field of study, certain publications have significantly changed understanding. This is the most important publication for the tennis serve. Long-axis rotation: The missing link in proximal-to-distal segmental sequencing (2000) Robert N. Marshall, Bruce C. Elliott...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
Find all other posts in this thread related to the Gordon criticism. I wonder what Brian Gordon knows about this now. ?
As far as I know, this issue is still unresolved.
Don't be critical of the lowly interpretation of shadows without understanding the current status of the best that there is for measuring ISR, whatever that may be? Elbow shadows can often be observed to indicate Internal Shoulder Rotation during the serve. Not easy to get quantitative angle measurements from those bone shadows.
Do you think that the question 'True or False?' is always important?
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Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
Is there at least a universal consensus that maximal ESR occurs at frame 2, the so-called "cocking phase"?
Or can there be an even greater ESR after that point? I think this is what the OP is alluding to.
Four phases during high speed serve:
(I) backswing,
(II) maximum external shoulder rotation
(III) ball impact and
(IV) maximum internal shoulder rotation
Chas Tennis
G.O.A.T.
Is there at least a universal consensus that maximal ESR occurs at frame 2, the so-called "cocking phase"?
Or can there be an even greater ESR after that point? I think this is what the OP is alluding to.
Four phases during high speed serve:
(I) backswing,
(II) maximum external shoulder rotation
(III) ball impact and
(IV) maximum internal shoulder rotation
You are thinking of maximum External Shoulder Rotation (MER) as depending only on the joint angle of ESR. When joint angles are measured, all other joint angles are held in place, prescribed, for the measurement. (Look up joint measurement videos and see how it is done.) In real motions, like the tennis serve, the other joints are changing, for example, with Thoracic Extension and Thoracic Flexion. I have had a thread about Thoracic Extension on the serve and how it changes the distance between the origins of the lat on the back and its insertion on the humerus. In other words, for Internal Shoulder Rotation (ISR), changing that distance affects how much the lat is stretched and thereby, how much ESR can be reached. Since that lat stretch is one thing that limits maximum External Shoulder Rotation - all bets are then off regarding "maximum" ESR. Remember that maximum ESR can only be actually measured under prescribed conditions of other body joints and parts.
That is a main point about the thread on Thoracic Extension (TE) during the serve. TE would allow some more ESR and then Thoracic Flexion could produce ISR as the back straightens again - as is observed.
To understand, first study "Two Joint Muscles" (TJM). This will show you how a second joint affects the range of motion of another joint. The lat has several origins on the back so that it is a Multi-Joint-Muscle rather than just a Two Joint Muscle.
I have posted this for a few years and have never received one case of someone disagreeing with it, discussing it, or one question or even any indication that anyone understands it. ?
Thoracic Extension may be very important for the serve? Time to acknowledge Thoracic Extension and the role it might be playing during the tennis serve. Speak up.
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Thoracic Extension of the Spine and the Serve
WARNING - How your spine is used during the serve can risk injury. Many backs are not capable of much Thoracic Extension. ? http://www.racquetfit.com/articles/Screening/if_you_can%27t_extend_from_your_thoracic_spine_you%27re_squandering_power_and_inviting_injury The extension of the...
tt.tennis-warehouse.com
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Prescribed body & joint positions for isolating and measuring External Shoulder Rotation angle. Including Elbow bent 90 degrees, back straight (vs with Thoracic Extension)
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This makes sense to me. While the two motions (ESR and supination) may be linked, you can focus on one more than the other. You can think about maximally supinating or getting more ESR on the racquet drop. It seems that I can concentrate on ESR but still keep the supination at a modest degree rather than vice versa. I think I was thinking about supination more than ESR which probably tightened my arm more and was counterproductive. Instead if I focus on ESR then it makes sense I'd do a better job at ISR after striking the ball which contributes to more racquet head speed.
Better_Call_Raul
Hall of Fame
ESR is associated with supination. The two motions go hand in hand during a tennis serve. Likewise ISR is associated with pronation.
Even though ISR+pronation and ESR+supinated are closely associated, the common rec player on the serve is employing too much forearm pronation and not enough ISR, which goes to your point about focusing more on one than the other.
On the slice serve, a common cue is to finish with the palm up (in a forearm supinated position) while also ISR into the slice serve. Had asked One Minute Tennis how it is possible to ISR and still finish in that palm up position; it feels awkward. And he said it is possible to perform ISR while simultaneously supinating, which is the main motion post-contact. I suppose this is possible, but keep in mind that practically 100% of the motion from the racquet drop to contact is ISR+pronation.
The motion post-contact would be ISR+ supination. It feels awkward when shadow swinging it but I suppose it is possible in the instant just after contact and continuing into follow thru.
Dragy
Legend
@Apache1128 one thing you might want to consider to find couple of extra mph is achieving more pronounced shaft-forearm angle by contact. Almost as if you were going for kick serve, but hitting flat through and swinging straight through:
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