The USTA 12 and under Junior Development Pathway

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by barringer97, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    yes it could be that we know more, or they are just wired differently but yes the colored balls did make it a little more fun for my second considering the situation:cry:

    Between you, TCF, BB and I, if we open an academy it will be an interesting academy. Seriously, I will contact a reality TV producer for this to happen. There was one documentary (tie break jeu decif) done that I was looking for about Jr tennis ( baghdatis in france ) , does anyone know about it or knows where I can get a copy?. I met one of the fathers in the video who was training at mouratouglou where parts of documentary was shot. I should have asked for a copy when I was there.
     
  2. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    interesting that even little mo is now offering the evil green ball alternative for the 8, 9 and 10. We should ask them how it pans out
     
  3. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    Ga...that would be great! I communicate with BB all the time now so I will get your info from him and text you a few days before.

    My daughter is playing in the yellow balls for 9s. She will still be only 8 but they go by birth year. She has never played against any girls less than 2 years older than her so this will be a change. The way it is set up by birth year no girl in her division will be more than 9 months older than her.
     
  4. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    I know i like the way usta does the age thing better. I think little mo does it like ITF.
     
  5. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    We have a mini academy now in our neighborhood. Every afternoon a group of kids and parents meet, several of the dads are coaches. The kids do drills and play practice sets. They pop in and out when they want. Some stay from 4-10, others stay just an hour or so. They also go jump in the pool right next to the courts.

    We now have a ball machine and various training tools. It just developed over time from kids we met at local tournaments. Sometimes its 3 kids, sometimes up to 8 kids. Works out great and all the kids are improving fast.
     
  6. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    I can not wait to meet you guys. Hopefully our girls can hit together between her matches.
     
  7. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    Sounds good!!!
     
  8. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Only for the sectional though. You don't advance to regionals/nationals with Green.
     
  9. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    True barringer. I am looking forward to the sectional in Port Saint Lucie in June. There will be both green and yellow for the younger ages. It will be nice to compare the levels of play.
     
  10. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    I'm just really interested to see the levels of play that's out there. My daughter (like yours), has always played up. There is only one girl at the same age that is as good (actually better) that I know of, but her dad was top 200 in the world and he runs clinics and teaches, but they aren't that far off. It's going to be fun to see everyone...especially with the yellow ball.
     
  11. TCF

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    Same here. The only tournament experience she gets is in the 12s. But she is the only 8 who plays in them. The youngest girl she has faced yet was almost 11.

    So the Little Mo yellow ball will be very interesting. We have no idea how many good 8-9 year olds there are playing with yellow. We plan to do the Little Mo in FL, GA, then hopefully TX. And at years end there is the International right in our home town.

    So we should get a chance to see lots of talented yellow ball kids.
     
  12. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    The really good 8 year olds from GA wont be playing Little Mo. They are playing Southern level tournaments. We have two REALLY good 8 year olds that win alot of matches in the 12s.
     
  13. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    excellent but at Port Saint Lucie, the courts are hartru, so not real test unless hard courts. Say hello to Gabe for me. He trains most of his U10 academy kids with green, he had one elite full time homeschooler who was 10 from Australia who trained with Yellow with my son, the rest were all green.
     
  14. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    I am curious why they won't do the Little Mo? I like the set up, the chance to play against kids their birth year, exchanging first round gifts at the International, etc.

    Try to convince them to do the Little Mo sectional on May 17th in Norcross. If they finish top 8 they can advance to the regional June 14th.

    I would love for my 8 yo to get a chance to play other good 8s.
     
  15. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    in all of NE we have one 8 year old. so they are limited, 8 year old who are elite players that can handle NEW regulation balls in an 8 ball rally hitting hard not dinking it.
     
  16. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    Gabe's place has 6 Har Trus and 15 hard courts I thought? So I assumed the Little Mo will be played mostly on hards?
     
  17. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Me and my 8 year old girl are playing a parent/kid tennis tournament this weekend at my club, yellow balls, etc. It should be a lot of fun. Can't wait to pluck off a couple of kids. ;-)

    I'm interested to see how she does with it in a competition format. She does a lot of ball machine with yellow and plays with me with yellow, but when she plays other kids, it's usually Green.
     
  18. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    nice, but my then 8.5 year old was a finalist at little mo and advanced to Chicago regionals but said no?!?! I was not going to put an 8 year old on a two hour flight just to play in a match against another 8 year old. we had had plenty of 9-10 year old that will give him the same challenge for free at our academy. TCF at first you did not want to travel more than 30 minutes for competition now you are traveling big time for an 8 year old:confused:
     
  19. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    Not traveling for the wins/loses but for the social aspect. We have a growing group of kids her age we communicate with and hit with when they vacation down here. We like to meet more her age.

    Port Saint Lucie is only 30 minutes, the GA one works perfectly with our vacation.

    But we do not travel for tennis right now. Pretty much train in our neighborhood and have played a few local tournaments within 30 minutes of us.
     
  20. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    I see, vacation and social aspect is fun but ,,,,,,,,,,,$$$$$$

    you are right I checked Gabe does have most of his courts are hard, hope he has them on HC, not HT,
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
  21. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    What?!?! I hate to hear this. "Awards for participation" are my pet peeve! It doesn't create winners, but teaches kids you don't have to work hard to win an award. Trophies and medals should be earned through hard work and winning. Give the kids a t-shirt, wrist band or poster if you need participation favors, not a trophy!!!!

    I've coached many kids sports and there is always a kid on the first day who asks "when do we get our trophies?" Ugh!

    My son played on a basketball team once when he was 8 and the team went 2-8. At the end the coach starts handing out trophies!?!? I went to him with my son and gave it back. Sounds harsh, I know, but this year when my kid WON his first trophy in tennis by winning 4 tough matches in a 32 draw - he understands what it means and feels good about the fact that he earned it.

    Tennis already leans towards those with money, so adding entitlement to it is the wrong approach.
     
  22. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is old-style disciplinarian thinking. Like announcing in class who did well and who flunked to mete out some public humiliation. It only builds resentment and a desire for revenge.

    The modern system of sensitivity is far better. Everyone who participates gets a prize. It is wrong to think that it demotivates those who are good. If they are demotivated because others were also acknowledged, it means they were competitive for the sake of it, and not out of passion for what they are doing.

    For too long, we have been told that the world is a harsh place and we have to compete. Why not get in touch with the inner feelings and cooperate instead of compete? The open source software approach has revolutionized the industry. Big companies tried to kill it and claimed it would reduce innovation, but the opposite happened. Thousands of small companies were able to compete and the industry grew exponentially in jobs and output.
     
  23. BMC9670

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    I completely disagree. It's not disciplining at all. There isn't a punishment or humiliation for losing, just not an "award" for losing. Working for something and earning it is now "old-school"?!? Sorry, no. If I just show up to work and do poorly, I don't get paid or get fired. That's life. Your open code analogy is completely different, although bad ideas don't make it in and are not rewarded with recognition or pay.
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2013
  24. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Lol. Get along. Sure. My company I'm out to bury the other guys. Make them file chapter 11 lose the house the kids. Everything. I'm at war.
    Ask any tech company if their there to get along. Lmao. Ask any company. We are out to kill the other guy. Same in sports.
     
  25. Pro_Tour_630

    Pro_Tour_630 Legend

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    I somewhat agree, but I feel participation and preparation is 1/2 the battle, some kids are not even participating because of fear of losing. My kid goes into battle knowing that he is going to get his butt kicked 0 and 0 and for that he should be awarded. It is not about winning, it is about how you get yourself to comeback to fight another day. I do not like the system where there is only one winner. My son tried so hard that at match point 40-40 no add at 6-5 his opponent called a foot in serve long and won the game, my son lost in the tie breaker and almost quit the game and said what is the point?!?!?! My son was clearly the better player and better ball striker. The largest and only one trophy was awarded to the winner. I think that is harsh especially with the rampant cheating in JR tennis. There should be a system like in Europe where there is an award to first second and third like in car racing where they stand on a podium, I think that is fun, they do have a big fat check for first on the tour and a smaller check for second etc... why not USTA, I think an award for second and third is warranted. Little mos there are trophies given left and right,:)
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  26. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    I agree with awards for placing - second or third, but not with the same award as the winner. Outside of third, give them a T-shirt or something, but not an award. Consolation trinkets will work just fine in keeping kids coming back. My son has gone home without an award many times, but loves to wear his tennis T-shirts, wrist bands, etc that they give out.

    This is a sport, and it's competition. There is a winner. If that's removed, it's not competition, it's practice. Practice, we're talkin' 'bout practice (that was for TCF:)). So, have a round robin with no winner if you want practice. Why remove the risk and reward from competition? If everyone gets the same reward, why keep score, why have a bracket, etc?

    Not only is competition preparing them for higher levels of sport, but life as well. An entry level employee doesn't get paid the same as management, and management doesn't get paid the same as the CEO, right? Does that mean they don't work hard? No.

    Also, everyone at some point thinks their kid is better than the kid who beat them, cheating or not. Most people think they can do a better job than their boss as well. Another life parallel.

    Look, I don't mean to sound harsh and I'm not a hard-*ss parent by any means, but IMO rewarding everyone equally in "competition" waters it down and devalues the process. The lesson should be hard work leads to success. Not simply paying an entry fee and showing up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  27. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    I agree with this 100%. There has to be a balance.

    My daughter is one of those kids where she doesn't want to play because of her fear of losing....but she loves trophy's. Sometimes its the only way I can get her to play.
     
  28. ga tennis

    ga tennis Hall of Fame

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    I dont really care about the wins and the losses im more concerned with did my player do it right. Did he or she stay commited to the gameplan and hit out on every shot,and use the footwork that we go over every day.Three weeks ago my daughter played a big tournament and won the first set and let a 5-2 lead in the second slip away because she started thinking about winning and got away from the plan and started playing down the middle hitting without a purpose. She won the second set 7-5 but she didnt do it right and her coach made her run 10 timed 40yard sprints. I knew she had another match in an hour and i asked her coach should we wait till after her next match and he said no she needs to do it now so it will stick with her. My point is that if you really wanna develop players wins or losses are really meaningless right now you need to be more concerned with did my player do what they were suppose to do.
     
  29. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    A balance of winning and losing, I agree. It's up to you to play them at a level that's appropriate, not change the structure so everyone wins. I think that's counterproductive. Freebies for participation are fine and sooth their losses, but kids need to have something to work toward.
     
  30. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    I agree. I don't mind losing if my kid is playing the right way and giving his all, but I don't think that alone warrants a trophy. An ice cream afterwards, sure. He knows if he gives his all, tries to play to improve, and doesn't cheat, he can feel good regardless of the outcome. If those things bring a win and some hardware, he has earned it.
     
  31. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    That is what we need to change. It creates a race to the bottom. We need a holistic lifestyle in harmony with nature.
     
  32. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    Wow.... Talk about the two extremes! It's like an episode of Wife Swap!:shock:
     
  33. TCF

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    I think many of us have seen what Pro Tour and Ga are talking about. In the lower age groups its many times not the best long term player that wins. When you are short and small like many kids, playing full court, nervous, the percentages favor the kid who dinks and patty cake serves. They just will make less mistakes.

    But as the kids get bigger and more experienced, the dinkers get over taken by the kids playing proper technique tennis.

    If I was a tournament director I would have a trophy in every age group for the kid who played full out and looks to be building a game for the long term. Call it the "Best long term game award" or something.

    Sure the kids who dinks to first place deserves their trophy, no rules were broken. But also rewarding the kids who go for it would also be good for junior tennis.
     
  34. BMC9670

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    That would be a very subjective award. Imagine the parent fights it would cause! :) Sure, kids with "short term" games may win some early on, but the kids who are doing it right for the long haul will win more and longer in the big picture. A good goal to work toward.

    I just don't think it makes sense to cater to every case. If you're going to let your kid compete, this is what you sign on for. It's a choice. I entered my son in some tournaments at 8 and it turned out he wasn't ready. OK. So we practiced, did group clinics, club round robins, etc until he was 10, when he was better prepared tennis-wise and more mature to play 12U.

    Maybe 10U should be round robin with no trophies, just "participation trinkets", no points, no rankings and introduce brackets, points, rankings, and trophies for 12U. Big difference in maturity between 7/8 and 10/12. I mean, if people have to coax their kids to play by guaranteeing an award, maybe they aren't ready to compete yet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  35. TCF

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    We will have to disagree on this one BMC. A trophy for a kid who plays a great long term game is a great idea and would help the game long term. So what if parents fight, these tournaments are cesspools of cheating and bad parents anyway....mostly the dinkers.

    I have seen too many very talented kids miss out to the dinkers. Heck, I would have a closet full of trophys and give one to every kid who plays full out.

    The fact is the 12s are total waste lands in the current set up and the ranking could not be any more of a worthless indicator of the best players. Any idea to improve the silly dinking and garbage is a good idea.
     
  36. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I agree. As long as I am the Lion instead of the sheep I'm with you.

    Are you really this touchy feely type sureshs?
     
  37. Tennis_Bum

    Tennis_Bum Professional

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    TFC, does your daughter still use the Wilson BLX Pro 26? I am having a hard time getting another one like it anywhere?
     
  38. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, you could engrave trophy with "Don't worry, you'll beat that dinker in the 16s and show their idiot parents how future pros really play, but are too fragile to make it on tour and wind up teaching dinkers at the local club".

    Oh, the irony.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2013
  39. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    Arche an Suresh,

    Please provide me with the ticker symbols for the companies you work for, I am going to buy stock in one company and short the other, but to avoid this violating TT rules about political conversations, I am not going to say which one I am buying and which one I am shorting :twisted:
     
  40. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    At the end of the day, it's about teaching them to not worry about the hardware. As for the participation trophy, isn't that what the t-shirts are for ?? How about that, every USTA sanctioned tournament should be required to give a T-Shirt. Doesn't have to be a Nike Dri-fit, can be a Sri-Lankan cotton, but thats your participation trophy right there. This would be good becuase my daughters wardrobe consists almost entirely of tournament T-shirts and she is growing out of them faster than they are having tournaments, so yes, this is self serving.
     
  41. Alohajrtennis

    Alohajrtennis Semi-Pro

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    While I agree with you in principle TCF, there is in reality no practical way to implement what you are talking about in the real world. In reality, it's an issue of coaching and parenting. Talking to them about the long term, entering them in the right 'balance' of tournaments, some to win, some to get experience,etc. Objectives like "played full out" are way to subjective, and just not implementable. Play in a mix of tournaments and age groups, some where they can win, but some where just between you and her, getting out of the first round is a "Win", or just getting 4 games off the #1 seed you happened to draw, is a win. A trip to Dairy queen and a home made trophy is cool too. Can't let them control us. This is not baseball where 9 kids win and 9 kids lose. This is tennis where 31 kids "lose" and 1 kid "wins". Spend lots of time with your kid defining what winning in tennis means. Winning is actually really, really easy. For example, it's quite probable that David Ferrer(for example) would win every tournament he entered - if he only entered challengers.
     
  42. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    There is a progression a player has to go through. They have to learn through experience how to handle the moonballs and no pace shots. That needs to happen in the lower ages. I have been through this many times. At an 18's boys match this week between top players one player started moonballing. It happens. When a player is losing they pull out all the tricks. You have to know how to handle it.
     
  43. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    Again, we just have to strongly disagree on this one. Directors can do what they like. If I want my tournament to be a beacon in a cesspool of dinking and cheating, I can make up my own trophies.

    I would patrol the matches and at the end give out a few sportsmanship trophies, and a few playing full out long term tennis trophies. Any coach worth a penny can tell a kid using a solid long term game vs a dinker.

    Thats just the way I would run my tournament.

    By the way, dinking and moonballing are two very different things. A high deep moonball is annoying, but a valid shot, usually requiring some ability and racquet head speed and top spin. The dinking I am talking about is the bunted short strokes, with no spin, usually done by kids who are a foot taller than the rest. Basically they are not that into tennis, made to do it by the parents, have no long term interest in developing any sort of game, and are very lazy. They make paying the tournament fee a waste of money because they are gone by the 14s and there is no use learning to defeat them when their style is irrelevant past the 12s.

    Its the kids who hang in and still hit full out vs these dinks that I would reward. Lets stop being afraid of new ideas and shaking things up. Junior tennis is a mess and not that popular among American kids. Most kids dead end quickly. So ideas such as rewarding a style of play that has a good chance of succeeding long term is a great one.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013
  44. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    Hmm... Seems to me to be a way for you to justify losing to players you see as inferior. As Coaching32 points out, players need to learn to deal with that style and as Aloha points out, it's up to the parent/coach to reward or inspire the kid to play the right way.

    You seem to be very jaded already and your kid is just beginning to compete. I'd be careful of attacking other players and their parents as it rubs off on the kids. Personally, I don't see so many "dinkers" and parents behaving badly. A few here and there, but generally I've seen pretty good tennis in the 12s and talked to many parents who have a great outlook on the sport. Is it your section or just your outlook? (Rhetorical, of course).
     
  45. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    I want to add, my daughter, who is a girl (obviously), has to beat boys to "advance" to the next level. Everything in NorCal is BG.
     
  46. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    I'm in NorCal, grew up in SoCal, and I think TCF is spot on.
     
  47. BMC9670

    BMC9670 Hall of Fame

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    Great! You can swing by the store and pick up the "you're really better than that dinker that just beat you" trophies on the way to the TCF Junior Open so everyone will go home a winner. :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013
  48. barringer97

    barringer97 Rookie

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    Hearing that they might delay the Developmental 12 and Under Mandate (fingers crossed).
     
  49. TennisCoachIN

    TennisCoachIN Rookie

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    Has anyone heard if there is a possibility of having 12 and under mandate (Green Balls) throughout country or will be only by Sections? Thanks
     
  50. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

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    BMC, my goal is not for everyone to go home a winner. Its just been my experience that kids who dink end up getting killed later on and quit tennis. And kids who try to develop a long term game as advised by their parents or coach, get discouraged and also go into other sports.

    So the goal is to try and promote a longer term approach and reward the kids who go for it. Anything to keep athletic kids from quitting tennis.

    Just an idea out of the frustration of having a very talented 9 year old boy decide to just stick with football and drop tennis after meeting dinkers in his last 2 tournaments. He just does not get that in the long term his game will win out. So maybe some sort of acknowledgement would have helped.

    I suppose we could just give them some sort of award on our own for going for it, outside of the actual tournament trophies.

    As far as our section, yes, as I explained, we have the perfect storm of a huge influx of Russian kids along with entitled Palm Beachers. Come on down and attend a 12 tournament and I think you will see its a mess of cheating and parents getting involved.

    At our last tournament, I sat quiet while one of my players got hooked on every other ball. The player called a ref but the refs were called by 3 other players within minutes. It was so bad that a total stranger, a lady watching her boy on the next court kept telling me to go get the tournament director. I politely said the kids have to handle it. Then my player called a ball out that was 6 feet out to make it 0-15. The server then said 15-0 and yelled that the ball was in. This was on every other point. The lady next to me, who I never met before, stood up and walked into the office and got the tournament director. He walked down to the court, the cheater saw him coming, and magically decided to withdraw.

    When its so bad a total stranger is going to get help for your player.....its pretty bad here!
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013

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