NatF
Bionic Poster
Debatable, but he's up there. He won a hell of a lot.
Time to revisit Rosewall's losses in major finals...
- Thread starter Gary Duane
- Start date
Debatable, but he's up there. He won a hell of a lot.
I think that everyone respects the Little Cornishman, including this Cornishman.
Part of the problem is the poor rating Ken (and also Hoad and Laver) received in Kramer's book, which is cited so frequently by the Wiki articles.
Flash O'Groove
Hall of Fame
Kramer didn't rate Ken, Hoad and Laver highly?
NatF
Bionic Poster
I think he rates Rosewall beneath Bobby Riggs. Can't remember how he rated Hoad.
He rated Hoad, Rosewall and Laver in the third tier, below Riggs and even Perry (hah, hah!).
In 2007 he issued a different, and more realistic, list, and rated Hoad among the five best ever, Vines, Budge, Gonzales, Hoad, Federer.
But he still left Rosewall and Laver off the list.
I suspect that Kramer's sometimes difficult dealings with these three Aussies had a subliminally negative impact on the ratings.
AnOctorokForDinner
Talk Tennis Guru
Kramer was a mean piece of work as a tour promoter, wasn't he? His opeens may not be any better than some of the biased mugs around here.
I'll take some of the opinions around here in preference to Kramer's views, but most of all I value the opinions of the players themselves.
Kramer had difficulty with all three Aussies, he wanted to play the 1954 world championship as a hth series between himself and Hoad, but Hoad refused to sign (this was in December 1953, Hoad had just turned 19).
Kramer tried to sign Laver at Wimbledon in 1961, but Laver refused, and so there was no pro tour for 1962.
Rosewall cost Kramer money, Kramer had to make up Rosewall's guarantee in 1957 because the ticket sales did not cover the guarantee amount.
Kramer had a beef with all 3, but Kramer at least upgraded Hoad AFTER Hoad's death.
Kramer tried to sign Laver at Wimbledon in 1961, but Laver refused, and so there was no pro tour for 1962.
Rosewall cost Kramer money, Kramer had to make up Rosewall's guarantee in 1957 because the ticket sales did not cover the guarantee amount.
Kramer had a beef with all 3, but Kramer at least upgraded Hoad AFTER Hoad's death.
Either that of Jack was senile when he made those ratings.
IMO, the greatest players are the ones who WIN the most. Certainly Laver, and even Rosewall won a lot more than Hoad, Budge or Vines. Hoad was correct in not joining the pros at 19 and it was foolish for Kramer to ask him to do so. Who ever expected Rosewall to beat Gonzales on his rookie tour? I assume that is when Jack lost money on Ken? Certainly, Pancho did not do very well against Jack on his rookie tour. Hoad did better than Ken against Pancho, but not that much better. Whatever, it is the winning stats in tennis books that people see, not the game style. Winning ugly is better than losing with a pretty and powerful game. Obviously, Kramer did not agree with my criteria concerning a players greatness.
hoodjem
G.O.A.T.
Thanks. Likely sources for the bad blood between Kramer and the three Aussies.
I guess Kramer didn't like to hear "no."
As far as I know, Rosewall made $110,000 during his first year, so way beyond his guaranteed contract.
He made .exactly the guarantee....not over it...Kramer had to cover the guarantee. I read that he made $100,000, and perhaps the guarantee was $110,000...anyway, Kramer would be unhappy about having to dig into his pocket.
Kramer claimed that he lost money on that tour.
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Jack was always very sharp, never senile.
Yes, I think that Jack lost the money on the 1957 tour, at least, that is what Kramer said.
Hoad did much better than Ken on those pro tours, not even close.
Compare the 1957 tour with the 1958, the 1959 4-man with the 1960 4-man, both Hoad and Rosewall played the 1959 world tour, Hoad winning the world series with a 6 to 2 edge on Ken....not close.
Kramer upgraded his rating of Hoad AFTER Hoad died, not before.
Phoenix1983
G.O.A.T.
Kramer did indeed seem like a bitter man when it came to the great Aussies. He no doubt thought he was GOAT, and thus pumped up his competition.
That sounds possible. I was talking about Lew's initial rookie tour vs Pancho, not any of the others.
Rosewall signed for $65,000 in 13 months.
And he made $110,000, way over it.
Rosewall signed for two years and $110,000 guarantee for those 2 years, and Kramer paid off his entire TWO YEAR guarantee at the end of his first season. That guarantee would normally be covered by the ticket sales on the big 1957 tour with Gonzales IN THE FIRST YEAR ALONE, but those returns were insufficient to cover the guarantee, so Kramer dipped into his own pocket and paid off the guarantee.
Hoad's guarantee of $125,000 over two years was more than covered during Hoad's first 12 months on the tour, where Hoad received about $200,000, well above his two-year guarantee level.
By paying Rosewall's two-year guarantee ahead of time in only one year, Kramer was free of any obligation to Rosewall, Kramer did not have to include Rosewall on the 1958 championship tour, which could concentrate on the very popular and lucrative Hoad/Gonzales match-up, which sold out all the large stadiums in Australia, sometimes twice over, and made both Kramer and Hoad wealthy.
Rosewall was not even invited to participate in the 1959 4-man tour, even though Hoad had lost the 1958 tour to Gonzales. I have no doubt that Rosewall would have been included in that 1959 4-man if Kramer had believed that his presence would be a big draw.
It's ABSOLUTELY not true.
This is just one of the hundredth of papers writing about Rosewall and his pro contract.
STAR PHOENIX, Canada, 31 Dec 1956
"Australia's famous tennis twins who have won the Davis Cup three of the last four years were separated Saturday when Ken Rosewall signed a $65,000 contract to play with Jack Kramer's professional troupe. (...) Besides the $65,000 guarantee for a period covering 13 months, he was promised 25 per cent of all receipts over $300,000 plus a five-per-cent bonus and option on a new $25,000 contract should he beat Pancho Gonzales on the tour and emerge as the kingpin of the professionals."
Rosewall didn't have a contract for the second year. He made $48,000 during the World Series vs Pancho and the remaining $60,000 in his tours in South America, Europe, South Africa, Asia and Australia. Plus the tournaments.
Why did Kramer claim that he lost money on that 1957 tour? Something does not add up.
Was that $300,000 just for the Gonzales tour, or for any event? 300 thou. is a lot of money.
25 thou? That sounds like small potatoes. Weird report.
Weird? They are all like that.
Only the first contract is high. All the following ones are very small. Kramer was no idiot.
Segura played for $15,000 for WS1951.
Gonzales won vs Trabert a contract of $25,000 guaranteed for 1957, but of course he made a lot more.
Rosewall played at 20 per cent of the gates until the overall tour reached $300,000. After that he went on 25%.
Just the WS tour grossed around $250,000 alone, plus all the other tour all over the world.
Okay, getting 20% of the gate would explain Rosewall's take.
But how did Kramer end up losing money on the 1957 tour?
Kramer kept 20% of the gate for himself. Kramer made $200,000 for himself on the 1958 tour with his 20% take.
The new pro always lost market appeal after the first year, so they had to make it while they still had some marketability in year one.
It's not about the lost market appeal.
It's about they can't go back to amateur play, so they have to take what it is.
First contract is always high because the stake has to be good to move from amateur to pro.
It's impossible Kramer made $200,000 on the 1958.
If $200,000 is 20% means gates were $1,000,000!
And 1958 tour was not even close to 1953 tour that broke all records and was never surpassed.
The Chicago Tribune in 1959 reported that Kramer made $200,000 on that 1958 tour.
Hoad had a 20-25% take on that 1958 tour and claimed to have received $200,000 for the 12 months Hoad played, so if Kramer got a proprietorial 20% then it would make sense that Kramer might get 200 thou., if you include all events on the year.
Gonzales received a straight 20% in 1958 for the championship tour portion.
I suspect that 1958 was the all-time high year for the pro tour, not 1953.
In 1958, the Hoad/Gonzales show played in front of huge sold-out stadiums in Australia.
The CBS contract for Forest Hills probably gave more than $100,000, judging by other sports contracts for national broadcasts.
That would dwarf any losses at Forest Hills.
I would like to see that Chicago Tribune page.
When Hoad retired from Wembley58, Kramer said he made already 50,000 GPB, that are $140,000. From Jul 57 to Sept 58.
And it’s including everything : tournaments, European Tour 57, South Africa tour 57, Australian tour 57, European tour 58, tournaments.
Hoad made just a little more than Rosewall in the WS because he had a 5% extra bonus for every victories vs Gonzales. So probably around $60,000.
Heh, I posted that Chicago Tribune article several times on my "Tennis in the Second Golden Age of Sports" thread....many people here have already read it and commented on it, including PC1. A very important article of substance, which also point out that Hoad had an elbow injury in the early 1959 season which was reflected in his slow start on the Ampol tour.
Hoad claimed 200,000 USD for that period.
There was additional bonus money at every stop when the crowds were big.
50,000 GBP sounds like a very rough, rounded-off number, perhaps Hoad's claim of 200,000 USD is closer to reality.
Hoad claimed that for his two contracts covering 1957 through 1966 he received 1 million USD, a figure which Laver did not reach until 1971.
How can Hoad have reached $1,000,000 when Laver was the first one to have reached that?
How can Hoad’s claim, if it exists, be more reliable than various reports, including Great Britain and USA newspapers? In USA newspapers it’s reported $140,000, that “accidentally” it’s the same amount of 50,000 GBP....
That's what I would like to know, it looks like Laver was not the first to reach 1 million...the Hoad number was reported in 1967 on the British Pathe clip "Lew Hoad Tennis School", just use the link I gave.
Laver was the second player to reach that mark.
I recall reading the $200,000 in a press interview, but here it is in "Golden Boy" p. 174. "[At the end of the tour][Hoad] had a cheque for nearly $200,000 [from Kramer] FOR HIS WINNINGS"....the same figure which has appeared in many other places.
"
BGod
G.O.A.T.
He was a genetic freak. It's not like his style of play or equipment made it easier on the body. He played with a much heavier racquet and competed at a lot of events including clay.
And what always gets left out about that 74 Wimbledon run is a) he had missed the previous 2 edition and b) he won an epic 5 setter from 0-2 down in the SF.
You also have his 1977 AU run (January edition) at 42 years of age when he avenged the previous year's loss to Edmondson beating him in 4 sets in the QF before losing in 4 sets to eventual winner Tanner who beat Vilas in straights. Then his last Slam match at 44 in Australia losing to Peter Feigl in an epic 6-2, 6-4, 5-7, 4-6, 8-10. What a sendoff.
And what always gets left out about that 74 Wimbledon run is a) he had missed the previous 2 edition and b) he won an epic 5 setter from 0-2 down in the SF.
You also have his 1977 AU run (January edition) at 42 years of age when he avenged the previous year's loss to Edmondson beating him in 4 sets in the QF before losing in 4 sets to eventual winner Tanner who beat Vilas in straights. Then his last Slam match at 44 in Australia losing to Peter Feigl in an epic 6-2, 6-4, 5-7, 4-6, 8-10. What a sendoff.
Here is the reference to the fascinating Chicagi Tribune article, Kramer made $200,000 in 1958,
click on this, click on 1958, click on "other editions", March 1/1959, p.258
https://arxhices.chicagotribune.com
The thing I see it’s that Kramer paid $125,000 to Hoad in 15 months, that is actually what I said. Well, I said he made more, as he made $140,000.
Regarding Kramer making $200,000, I don’t see where it’s written, but I would say if he made it, it’s the whole year earnings, not just the WS
Mainad
Bionic Poster
This is why you should not treat Kramer's opinions as if they are sent from on high and as 'proof' to back up your own prejudices against players like Perry.
Mainad
Bionic Poster
Rosewall was a Cornishman??
Yes, of course the world series....the article says that Hoad was paid more than Mickey Mantle or any baseball player.
But it didn't know that Hoad was paid $125,000, that was just the guarantee, of course.
Hoad was actually paid about $200,000 according to that other quote I gave you, that is right from the recipient, not some off-the-cuff attempt to remember by Kramer with a vague, round-off figure.
Hoad actually held a cheque, a single cheque, from Jack Kramer of an amount of about $200,000...I gave you the quote in black and white.
That figure of $200,000 is repeated on many other locations.
And Hoad was the first tennis player to reach the $1 million mark in tennis earnings. I gave you the link for that also.
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I went over that in depth in the thread "Tennis in the Second Golden Age of Sports".
I found the references, which BobbyOne was excited about.
The Rosewall family farmed in the Rosewall Hill area of western Cornwall near Land's End.
I don’t see the quote in black and white.
I am not prejudiced against Perry, but some people are prejudiced in his favour without looking into the facts.
I explained to you that Perry was the "bad boy" of his time in tennis, faulted for his unsportsmanlike behaviour, and how that was seen in the snubs he received from the tennis establishment.
Funny how people are now somehow confused about how that happened.
I gave you the quote above, and from where it was taken.
Look above at post #129....how did you miss it?
I saw that.
But it didn’t say which tour.
And when he took that check.
Also, do you really believe that Kramer gave Hoad a single $200,000 check? How did Hoad survive in the months from the beginning of the tour to the end of the tour?
Yes, it said he received the cheque at the end of the 1958 tour...right there in black and white.
Living expenses on the road? The boys collected the money at each venue, and periodically turned it over to Kramer.
Presumably the living expenses came out of the general revenue which passed through the players' hands.
Everything was accounted for and handled by Kramer's wife, who acted as financial secretary for the troupe.
Hoad received, as I recall, a signing bonus up front when he joined the tour.
I still don’t see in black and white the part where the 1958 is written.
Also the players were paid daily/weekly according the events they were playing.
Not every 6/12 months.
The context of 1958 is obvious, the next paragraph talks about arrangements for the succeeding tour in 1959.
Daily? Weekly? My understanding is that the money was COLLECTED daily and weekly, but processed by Kramer's wife, who then sent out the cheques.
Which also means that Kramer himself might not really know the exact amounts the players received, because his wife did that work.
Kramer could only give vague approximate answers to the question of how much was actually paid out.
Hoad, I believe, received a $25,000 singing bonus up front for winning the Wimbledon title in 1957....that was a lot of money in those days and would pay for living expenses on the road.
And living expenses were tax deductible items for the pros. I presume that Kramer's wife withheld income tax, and probably did the calculations on deductions.
Kramer himself could only give a vague answer about the calculations, his wife was the expert on that.
But Hoad would certainly remember getting a $200,000 paycheque.
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You are correct. Many people ignore (or don't know) Ken's achievements while at the same time they stand out the achievements of other players. But ignoring something doesn't mean it isn't existing.
I don't agree about Ken's peak years been lower than Laver's, Hoad's etc. Ken was a top player and his peak years were for at least 17 years - from 1957 to 1974. And the result of all these perfect years were the huge achievements.
I doubt that Kramer had any criteria when evaluating players. Private relations, business stuff, sympathies, antipathies ....
He obviously doesn't care who won what.
If you go to page 18 out of 51
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19600110&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
There is a nice interview with Hoad.
He says he made 100,000 GBP (around $280,000) at the end of 1959 Ampol Tour.
So how is it possible he made $200,000 just in the WS58?
Do you really think he made just $80,000 during all 1957, all 1959 and half 1958?
Again illusional figures. In 1959 the balance b/w Rosewall and Hoad in the tour and tournaments is 9-8 in favor of Rosewall.
Hoad had a 6-2 edge on Ken for the 1959 world tour, and a much more consistent performance than Ken for the world tours in 1957/58, and a more consistent record than Ken in the 1959/60 4-man series.
Not even close.
In the minor events and non-championship tours? Those were times of rest for the top guys, resting for the world championship tours.
Not even close.
In the minor events and non-championship tours? Those were times of rest for the top guys, resting for the world championship tours.
Thanks for the great link, it tells us a lot, like it confirms the 24 to 23 hth score for Hoad and Gonzales, that was not a misprint in "The Age".
Hoad says he got $70,000 for 1959, which is what you would expect, in the second years the pros got less.
Yes, I use the 2.8 exchange rate, so that is about $210,000 for Hoad's first (approximately) twelve months as a pro, which is what I claim he got.
No, I was not excluding the tournament play.
The claim that Hoad received "almost" $200,000 for the first 12 months was wrong, and I apologize for that....the real answer is that Hoad got about
$210,000 for those first months from July 1957 to September 1958 (minus some down time during the 1958 hth tour when his back gave out, many weeks).
I UNDERestimated how much Hoad received for that first period!
So this information supports the quote which I gave you.
I always thought that for the first 2 1/2 years (minus 4 or 5 months downtime) Hoad received about $300,000.
The real answer is $280,000 PLUS the $25,000 signing bonus in the contract.
And endorsements and ad revenue of about $56,000.
Earlier , we thought that the $210,00 figure must include endorsements and ads, but not so.
Plus some investment income.....not bad.
I said already. You are working with imaginary figures again and again. No need to repeat them.
Hoad and consistency ?!? Two different issues.
