Time to revisit Rosewall's losses in major finals...

[Dan Lobb]

Hoad was more consistent than the Little Cornishman on those pro world championship tours, it is not close.

 

[Ivan69]

Hoad was more consistent than the Little Cornishman on those pro world championship tours, it is not close.

Repeating wrong figures thousands times wont make them true.

 

[Dan Lobb]

The numbers are clear, Hoad was more consistent on the world pro championships. Not an issue.

 

[Ivan69]

The numbers are clear, Hoad was more consistent on the world pro championships. Not an issue.

Obviously they are not clear for you.

 

[Dan Lobb]

We can compare the numbers on those world tours.
1957/58 hth series, 1959/60 4-man tours, 1959 world tournament championship.

 

[Ivan69]

We can compare the numbers on those world tours.
1957/58 hth series, 1959/60 4-man tours, 1959 world tournament championship.

Sure. Not only these years, let's see more:
1957 - 16-15 for Rosewall
1958 - 10-2 for Rosewall
1959 - 9-8 for Rosewall
1960 - 6-3 for Rosewall
1961 - 1-0 for Rosewall
1962 - 4-1 for Rosewall
1963 - 5-1 for Rosewall
1964 - 10-1 for Rosewall
1965 - 3-0 for Rosewall
1966 - 6-0 for Rosewall
1967 - 4-0 for Rosewall
1968 - 1-0 for Rosewall

There was no year when Hoad had a positive balance vs Rosewall. Even in 1959, the winning year of Hoad, Rosewall had a positive balance.
We can look also at Hoad's balances vs Segura, Gimeno, Sedgman, Buchholz, Ayala, Barthes (skipping Laver and Gonzales). But better not, they don't look good.
Good night!

 

[NoMercy]

Thanks for the great link, it tells us a lot, like it confirms the 24 to 23 hth score for Hoad and Gonzales, that was not a misprint in "The Age".

Hoad says he got $70,000 for 1959, which is what you would expect, in the second years the pros got less.

Yes, I use the 2.8 exchange rate, so that is about $210,000 for Hoad's first (approximately) twelve months as a pro, which is what I claim he got.

No, I was not excluding the tournament play.

The claim that Hoad received "almost" $200,000 for the first 12 months was wrong, and I apologize for that....the real answer is that Hoad got about

$210,000 for those first months from July 1957 to September 1958 (minus some down time during the 1958 hth tour when his back gave out, many weeks).

I UNDERestimated how much Hoad received for that first period!

So this information supports the quote which I gave you.

I always thought that for the first 2 1/2 years (minus 4 or 5 months downtime) Hoad received about $300,000.

The real answer is $280,000 PLUS the $25,000 signing bonus in the contract.

And endorsements and ad revenue of about $56,000.

Earlier , we thought that the $210,00 figure must include endorsements and ads, but not so.

Plus some investment income.....not bad.

$70,000 are Australian Dollars.
And the article says that he went into the 70k, not that it’s the exact amount (exact amount is 31,000 GBP). That if you make the conversion is $86,000, more or less.
So from the start of his pro career through the end of 1958 he made $195,000, more or less, INCLUDING that bonus you talk about, if it exists.
So again, during WS58 he made around 60/70k, as expected

 

[Dan Lobb]

$70,000 are Australian Dollars.
And the article says that he went into the 70k, not that it’s the exact amount (exact amount is 31,000 GBP). That if you make the conversion is $86,000, more or less.
So from the start of his pro career through the end of 1958 he made $195,000, more or less, INCLUDING that bonus you talk about, if it exists.
So again, during WS58 he made around 60/70k, as expected

Yes, that $25,000 was a SIGNING bonus, which was paid up front, and not related to the tour winnings.

We have an aggregated number for the season, not broken down by tours.

You have given strong support to that figure I quoted you from the source in "Golden Boy", thanks for that.

 

[NoMercy]

Yes, that $25,000 was a SIGNING bonus, which was paid up front, and not related to the tour winnings.

We have an aggregated number for the season, not broken down by tours.

You have given strong support to that figure I quoted you from the source in "Golden Boy", thanks for that.

Actually not.
I have always spoken regarding Tours.
1957 is not combined with 1958, they are two different figures. There are two tax returns as well.
And again, you still have no idea what is that $25,000 bonus you are talking about. That money was not paid upfront (I want a source saying that, if not they are just BS) and it was added to Hoad’s contract because he won Wimbledon.
Hoad’s contract went from $100,000 in 25 months to $125,000 because he won Wimbledon and that amount went into the minimum guarantee to be paid if he hadn’t reached it.

So all you have said about Hoad in the last day are just BS and incorrect info.
Like the one $200,000 check!
That is the most hilarious one!

 

[Dan Lobb]

Actually not.
I have always spoken regarding Tours.
1957 is not combined with 1958, they are two different figures. There are two tax returns as well.
And again, you still have no idea what is that $25,000 bonus you are talking about. That money was not paid upfront (I want a source saying that, if not they are just BS) and it was added to Hoad’s contract because he won Wimbledon.
Hoad’s contract went from $100,000 in 25 months to $125,000 because he won Wimbledon and that amount went into the minimum guarantee to be paid if he hadn’t reached it.

So all you have said about Hoad in the last day are just BS and incorrect info.
Like the one $200,000 check!
That is the most hilarious one!

I was not speaking only of tours, and neither were the quotes I gave you, they were about seasons.

So, let's see what calculations we have.

1959 = 31,000 GBP or $86,800

1957-58 = $280,000 - $86,800 =$193,000

plus $56,000 endorsements

Look at that Hodgson quote again, which I gave you, "a cheque for nearly $200,000".

Is 193 nearly 200? Sounds like it to me.

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

[NoMercy]

I was not speaking only of tours, and neither were the quotes I gave you, they were about seasons.

So, let's see what calculations we have.

1959 = 31,000 GBP or $86,800

1957-58 = $280,000 - $86,800 =$193,000

plus $56,000 endorsements

Look at that Hodgson quote again, which I gave you, "a cheque for nearly $200,000".

Is 193 nearly 200? Sounds like it to me.

Thanks for the confirmation.

So we started with you saying Hoad made those money during the 58 tour.
To me the 1958 tour is the 1958 tour.
Not the 1957 part, not the tournaments.
And Hoad didn’t made those money in 12 either. It’s 18 months. If he’s injured, it’s part of the game.

 

[Dan Lobb]

So we started with you saying Hoad made those money during the 58 tour.
To me the 1958 tour is the 1958 tour.
Not the 1957 part, not the tournaments.
And Hoad didn’t made those money in 12 either. It’s 18 months. If he’s injured, it’s part of the game.

My actual statement was that Hoad made about $200,000 in his first 12 months of play. No play, no pay.
He played about 5 months in 1957, about 7 or 8 months in 1958, so that seems to add up correctly.

I think that it is quite possible that Hodgson, although a friend of Hoad, was working with a copy of that Sydney Herald article you kindly gave us
the link for above.
In that case, his use of the term "cheque in his hand" might be a figure of speech, rather than a reference to an actual one-time payment.

But the numbers add up to what I was claiming, so thanks for the reference.

I gave you a reference for the British Pathe clip about Hoad's total contract earnings from 1957-66, being 350,000 GBP or about 1 million USD...did you manage to find the clip?

That implies that Laver was the second player to pass the 1 million mark.

 

[Dan Lobb]

Hoad and Rosewall played only one world championship tour against each other, with Hoad holding the edge 6 matches to 2 in play.

In the four other major tours 1957-60, Hoad was much more consistent than Rosewall, not even close.

 

[Dan Lobb]

I am happy that you think that the article says what you were saying.
But what was important at the beginning of this was about the WS. The fact that Kramer lost money in 1957 because of Rosewall and the fact he made lots of money in 1958 because of Hoad!
That’s is NOT true!
Hoad made a little more money than Rosewall during the WS because he had an extra 5% for every victory. That’s it!
And WS58 was very small compared to WS53, that was the all time record breaking tour

Yes, it supports what I claimed, thanks.

Getting $193,000 for 12 months play was huge. Indicates a major box office attraction, well beyond the 1953 numbers.

We were talking about money earned, so it all adds up.

Kramer may have felt that he lost money in 1957, but what that really means is still a question.

As I pointed out to you, his wife did the books, so Kramer may have had only a vague idea of what the actual numbers were.

I am not sure that Kramer knew exactly the comparison between 1953 and 1958. See Gonzales' evaluation of the Australian subtour.

Did you find the British Pathe clip for career earnings, showing Hoad at $1 million?

 

[Dan Lobb]

I would like to see that Chicago Tribune page.

When Hoad retired from Wembley58, Kramer said he made already 50,000 GPB, that are $140,000. From Jul 57 to Sept 58.
And it’s including everything : tournaments, European Tour 57, South Africa tour 57, Australian tour 57, European tour 58, tournaments.

Hoad made just a little more than Rosewall in the WS because he had a 5% extra bonus for every victories vs Gonzales. So probably around $60,000.

Kramer was obviously well off the mark here, it was, as we have seen, 193,000 USD....so Kramer was well off at 140,000.

AND, Kramer got 20% himself, so probably similar amount to Hoad. (I think that 20% number is in the Chicago Tribune article.)

Kramer also claimed to have taken huge losses on many of the big pro tournaments, but look at what Hoad says in that Sydney Morning Herald interview, that

Kramer would look again at the final numbers (which were kept by Kramer's wife, not by Kramer) and realize that things were good.

So even Hoad recognized that Kramer's complaints were nothing to worry about, and would change after Kramer saw the final numbers.

Kramer's off-the-cuff remarks about money figures were usually pessimistic, and should not be taken too seriously.

 

[Dan Lobb]

If you go to page 18 out of 51
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19600110&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
There is a nice interview with Hoad.
He says he made 100,000 GBP (around $280,000) at the end of 1959 Ampol Tour.
So how is it possible he made $200,000 just in the WS58?
Do you really think he made just $80,000 during all 1957, all 1959 and half 1958?

Read the article, it says he made 31,000 pounds or $70,000 dollars for 1959. That is an exchange rate of about 2.3.
And so the 100,000 pounds (perhaps a rough number there) would be worth about $230,000. That is U.S. dollars.
So 1957 through 1958 might be about $160,000.

Or another way to calculate, 100,000 pounds through 1959, minus 31,000 for 1959 = about 70,000 pounds through 1958 or about $160,000.
Plus other forms of income.

The guarantee was $125,000 over two years, the contract covered the end of 1959, so he made almost twice the guarantee over the two year period. Actually a 2 1/2 year period. There was no time lapse for the several months he was not playing due to injury.

 

[Dan Lobb]

So we started with you saying Hoad made those money during the 58 tour.
To me the 1958 tour is the 1958 tour.
Not the 1957 part, not the tournaments.
And Hoad didn’t made those money in 12 either. It’s 18 months. If he’s injured, it’s part of the game.

Kramer stated that he paid Hoad $225,000 through to June 1, 1959 (when the 4-man tour ended), not including promotions and other income from investments.
The Australian newspaper statement of 100,000 GBP (which would be about $230,000 through to Jan 2, 1960) sounds like a round figure, not an exact one, so Kramer might be a better source.
There was a lot of money made from June 1959 to the 2nd of January 1960 when the season ended., so $250,000 seems like a good estimate.