What impact does Djokovic dethroning Murray have?

[underground]

First of all, this isn't any bashing thread.

OK so to the main point. Before the final, Murray was on a row, he's been defeating the top guys continuously, Djoker + Fed in OG, Djoker in USO, Fed in Shanghai again, and now he's 1 point away from doing it against Djoker again. Murray's confidence has been growing ever since reaching the Wimbledon Final, and it's bigger than ever now he got a slam in the bag. Had he beaten Djokovic yet again in the final of Shanghai, surely he will have the invincibility feeling and I can totally see him dominating the AO next year.

Now Novak made a brilliant comeback by saving 5 MPs, it kinda broke Murray's heart and we saw the usual racket smashing and poor behaviour from him that was hidden for awhile now. Has Djokovic managed to keep Murray at bay in time? Did he prevent a dominance on hardcourts from the Scot? Did Novak just sort of put out the roaring fire a bit?

 

[The Bawss]

"Djokovic dethroning Murray". Wtf did I just read?

 

[Towser83]

I think this was more important for Djokovic than it was for Murray. Murray has been stopped from getting even more momentum and Djokovic has kept the mental shift from moving in murray's favour. but once Murray gets over blowing those set point i don't think it will hurt him too much. it just keeps things finely balanced, where a win would have tipped it towards Murray

 

[6-1 6-3 6-0]

Murray has no throne. To dethrone someone, you have to take someone off their throne, e.g. beating Nadal in a Roland Garros final.

 

[Mainad]

Have to agree that Murray has, as yet, no throne to be dethroned from. He is world #3, that's all.

I think for Djokovic, it kind of puts things with Murray back on an even keel. He stopped his run of losses to Murray this year (Olympics, USO) and re-asserted his dominance in their H2H which is now 9-7 in his favour rather than level at 8-8 as it would have been if Murray had converted one of those match points.

For Murray, I think it will remind him once more that he is one of the very few players who can be truly competitive with Djokovic at the moment. Sure, he got unlucky with all those missed match points today. But he should have confidence that it was so close and that he can regularly take Djokovic to the brink and that next time he should get a bit luckier and pull out a few clutch serves at the crucial moments just like he did in the USO final! :wink:

 

[Netspirit]

I still think Murray will reach #1 next year, and will be swapping #1 and #2 with Djokovic, as Fedal goes down to #3 and #4.

 

[Homeboy Hotel]

He knew he was one point away, so he can still continue riding high. Especially with Federer.

It's not like he beat the top guys for months and then gets blown away 6-1 6-0. That would seriously stop momentum.

No changes. Murray will probably beat Djokovic in Basel or WTF.

 

[underground]

I meant dethroning Murray from shanghai, kinda stole it off from the ATP site, my bad

 

[Gonzo_style]

He knew he was one point away, so he can still continue riding high. Especially with Federer.

It's not like he beat the top guys for months and then gets blown away 6-1 6-0. That would seriously stop momentum.

No changes. Murray will probably beat Djokovic in Basel or WTF.

This year Djokovic plays Paris and WTFs only...

 

[Tony48]

It's just a switch in momentum and a sorely needed boost in confidence for Novak.

 

[veroniquem]

First of all, this isn't any bashing thread.

OK so to the main point. Before the final, Murray was on a row, he's been defeating the top guys continuously, Djoker + Fed in OG, Djoker in USO, Fed in Shanghai again, and now he's 1 point away from doing it against Djoker again. Murray's confidence has been growing ever since reaching the Wimbledon Final, and it's bigger than ever now he got a slam in the bag. Had he beaten Djokovic yet again in the final of Shanghai, surely he will have the invincibility feeling and I can totally see him dominating the AO next year.

Now Novak made a brilliant comeback by saving 5 MPs, it kinda broke Murray's heart and we saw the usual racket smashing and poor behaviour from him that was hidden for awhile now. Has Djokovic managed to keep Murray at bay in time? Did he prevent a dominance on hardcourts from the Scot? Did Novak just sort of put out the roaring fire a bit?

I do think this win was crucial for Djoko. He had lost his last 2 matches to Murray (Olympics and USO) and was 6-6 on hard vs Murray. He would also have lost the general head to head advantage if he had lost Shanghai. Psychologically, it's not a good position to be in. Now they're 3-3 this year, Djoko is still ahead in the head to head and he avoided losing to Murray 3 times in a row. There is no doubt that kind of stuff matters at the very top. It's not the end of the world but it's never a good thing to get into a prolonged losing streak vs a main rival.

 

[Netspirit]

Both Djokovic and Murray could care less about some obscure stats like "H2H 6-6 on hard".

 

[Russeljones]

Only on TT can the 'de facto' world #1 defeating the #3 be called dethroning.

 

[SQA333]

Murray has no throne. To dethrone someone, you have to take someone off their throne, e.g. beating Nadal in a Roland Garros final.

Or beating Nadal 7 times in a row.

 

[batz]

Only on TT can the 'de facto' world #1 defeating the #3 be called dethroning.

Not true. I think you'll find that ATPworldtour.com used exactly the same nomenclature. They were coming at it from a 'Murray in Shanghai' perspective. To also be fair, Nole is the first man to beat Murray in the 8th MS/October MS since Rafa beat him at Madrid in 2007.

 

[Duncan Bell]

I think this would hurt Murray a lot more if he hadn't rallied to win the 5th in the USO - next time they face off he'll have that to draw on rather than 5 failed CPs.

 

[Russeljones]

Not true. I think you'll find that ATPworldtour.com used exactly the same nomenclature. They were coming at it from a 'Murray in Shanghai' perspective. To also be fair, Nole is the first man to beat Murray in the 8th MS/October MS since Rafa beat him at Madrid in 2007.

I am the first man to eat 3 servings of my own homemade hot sauce at one meal since 2009. That's a fact.

Murray being on a metaphorical throne needing to be supplanted by someone who has exceeded him in every sence of the word is a major stretch of the imagination. Be that the imagination of ATPworldtour.com visitors or of readers here. I am not trying to be funny either, this is another manifestation of the inflation in superlatives for all things Murray.

 

[batz]

I am the first man to eat 3 servings of my own homemade hot sauce at one meal since 2009. That's a fact.

Murray being on a metaphorical throne needing to be supplanted by someone who has exceeded him in every sence of the word is a major stretch of the imagination. Be that the imagination of ATPworldtour.com visitors or of readers here. I am not trying to be funny either, this is another manifestation of the inflation in superlatives for all things Murray.

For clarity, I too find it all a bit OTT and it's not the language I'd have chosen. But that doesn't make your assertion any less wrong.

As a slight aside, can you give me an example of an uninflated superlative Isn't that kinda what superlatives are about?

 

[Russeljones]

For clarity, I too find it all a bit OTT and it's not the language I'd have chosen. But that doesn't make your assertion any less wrong.

As a slight aside, can you give me an example of an uninflated superlative Isn't that kinda what superlatives are about?

My assertion is wrong as far as assuming TT is the birthplace of the pathetic metaphor, I concede that. 'Inflation' refers to the trend of using more and bolder superlatives.

 

[batz]

My assertion is wrong as far as assuming TT is the birthplace of the pathetic metaphor, I concede that. 'Inflation' refers to the trend of using more and bolder superlatives.

You know something Russ - I really like your ability to call it as it is - even when you've got something are wrong. You are a classy gentleman.

 

[pound cat]

There is only one throne Murray sits on and it has nothing to do with tennis.

 

[The Bawss]

There is only one throne Murray sits on and it has nothing to do with tennis.

I lold!

10lols

 

[Mainad]

Only on TT can the 'de facto' world #1 defeating the #3 be called dethroning.

Actually, I've just realised they were referring to Murray's 'Shanghai throne' as he had been champion there for the last two years. I think that's a fair comment. Nothing to get too excited or agitated about.

So no, nobody's over-inflating his achievements. In the context of Shanghai alone, it was reasonably justified.

 

[Russeljones]

Actually, I've just realised they were referring to Murray's 'Shanghai throne' as he had been champion there for the last two years. I think that's a fair comment. Nothing to get too excited or agitated about.

So no, nobody's over-inflating his achievements. In the context of Shanghai alone, it was reasonably justified.

Is the tournament really so prominent? You'll have to say "No it isn't". I can understand talk of Sampras, Becker and Federer being part owners of Wimbledon at one time or another, RG being Nadal's sandbox etc. you pick a hyperbole connected with Slams and Slam winners, it would be a goofy cliche but it would have some weight. Murray being 'dethroned' has a ring of something truly momentous happening in the tennis world and I don't think that's an honest statement, it smacks of journalist sensationalism.

 

[Mainad]

Is the tournament really so prominent? You'll have to say "No it isn't". I can understand talk of Sampras, Becker and Federer being part owners of Wimbledon at one time or another, RG being Nadal's sandbox etc. you pick a hyperbole connected with Slams and Slam winners, it would be a goofy cliche but it would have some weight. Murray being 'dethroned' has a ring of something truly momentous happening in the tennis world and I don't think that's an honest statement, it smacks of journalist sensationalism.

The ATP website itself makes this comment next to Murray's name in the Race to London stats:

"Dethroned by Djokovic in Shanghai final".

http://www.atpworldtour.com/

 

[Hood_Man]

Murray didn't look that disappointed at the end. He'll also have the sense to realise that he should have won it, and therefore knows he still can win against Novak in the future.

I haven't seen Murray look as exhausted as he did in that last game before, he was barely able to serve.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

There is only one throne Murray sits on and it has nothing to do with tennis.

best answer so far !

 

[Russeljones]

The ATP website itself makes this comment next to Murray's name in the Race to London stats:

"Dethroned by Djokovic in Shanghai final".

http://www.atpworldtour.com/

We discussed that with batz on the previous page.

 

[Big_Dangerous]

Murray didn't look that disappointed at the end. He'll also have the sense to realise that he should have won it, and therefore knows he still can win against Novak in the future.

I haven't seen Murray look as exhausted as he did in that last game before, he was barely able to serve.

"I'm tired, I'm sick and I'm playing so bad!"

- Andy Murray


:lol:

 

[Hood_Man]

"I'm tired, I'm sick and I'm playing so bad!"

- Andy Murray


:lol:

I used to hate Murray's rants as I thought they were holding him back, but now that he's proven that he can win the big events and still scream about anything, I'm growing to love them :lol:

Broadcasters should just keep a microphone on him at all times :twisted:

 

[Big_Dangerous]

I used to hate Murray's rants as I thought they were holding him back, but now that he's proven that he can win the big events and still scream about anything, I'm growing to love them :lol:

Broadcasters should just keep a microphone on him at all times :twisted:

I always think it's hilarious when players rant and rave and it gets picked up by the microphones. It's one of the only sports where you'll actually hear expletives even on ESPN and other major networks. I think it really gives you an idea of just how much pressure is on these guys and how much they expect of themselves.

 

[Down_the_line]

What is so hard to understand about the fact that Murray had a throne in Shanghai? Some of you need to not take this stuff so seriously. Murray was the 2 time defending champ at the Shanghai Rolex Masters so, yes, he was dethroned by Djokovic.

It's ok to use such a strong word, folks. LOL.

 

[syc23]

LOL.

Murray was down with a virus last week so he was clearly not 100%. It's not as if he got whooped 60 76 like Djokovic at Cincy by grandpa Fed... that was embarrassing.

It's encouraging to see Murray dismantle Federer not in full health so imagine what could happen when Murray is 100% next time they meet.

2012 has been a work in progress for Murray and to have come away with USO and OG is tremendous progress. I'm sure if Lendl presented Andy with a scenario of winning every HC Masters versus winning USO & Olympics he would settle for the latter everytime.

What Shanghai shows is that Berdych, Tsonga and the rest below can't compete with Djokovic and only Andy, Roger and Rafa are only ones capable of beating Nole ATM.

 

[underground]

LOL.

Murray was down with a virus last week so he was clearly not 100%. It's not as if he got whooped 60 76 like Djokovic at Cincy by grandpa Fed... that was embarrassing.

It's encouraging to see Murray dismantle Federer not in full health so imagine what could happen when Murray is 100% next time they meet.

2012 has been a work in progress for Murray and to have come away with USO and OG is tremendous progress. I'm sure if Lendl presented Andy with a scenario of winning every HC Masters versus winning USO & Olympics he would settle for the latter everytime.

What Shanghai shows is that Berdych, Tsonga and the rest below can't compete with Djokovic and only Andy, Roger and Rafa are only ones capable of beating Nole ATM.

I believe Federer is slightly injured/tired in the match as well. I'm not lying, you can see his footwork below par in all of his matches, and I think he mentioned something about muscle pain awhile ago.

 

[batz]

I believe Federer is slightly injured/tired in the match as well. I'm not lying, you can see his footwork below par in all of his matches, and I think he mentioned something about muscle pain awhile ago.

I thought Roger looked really think in his semi v Murray.

 

[Mainad]

I thought Roger looked really think in his semi v Murray.

To be honest, I don't really think Federer wanted to be in Shanghai at all. To me, you can always tell with Roger whether he truly wants to be there or not.
I think he only played it to please his Chinese fans and keep the ATP happy because he had skipped it last year using the exhausted excuse. He realised he couldn't use the same excuse 2 years on the trot. He is 1 year off, 1 year on in Shanghai (2009 off, 2010 on, 2011 off, 2012 on). To me, he looked rather tired and a bit disinterested all the while he was there.

His 2 yearly duty done, I expect him to skip it again next year.