Whats your top 10 of all time right now?

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by 90's Clay, Aug 22, 2012.

  1. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    As soon as Nadal got a declining Federer as a main opponent he managed to pick up four non-clay slams. (Over what...four years now?) :roll:

    Fed won every non-clay slam except for one from 2004-2007. Rafa was a slam winner beginning in 2005.

    Facts, BobbyOne, facts.
     
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Yes, if Laver would have had a weak opposition as Federer had, he would also have collected 17 majors (excluded the pro majors).
     
  3. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    [Opinion]I'm a 5.0, I would have crushed Laver even if he was in his prime.[/Opinion]

    According to you, Bobbyone, Laver would still pale in comparison to Rosewall with his 40 slam miminum.
     
  4. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    As far as I know Nadal stands 8:2 against Federer in majors.

    Nadal was not yet in his prime in 2005.
     
  5. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Laver would probably fart laughing at the prospect of facing Bagdhatis (TMF loves him), philipousi,Tsonga,Berdych, Roddick...I don´t think he´d win many since he would not be able to get serious...
     
  6. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Federer was not in his prime in 2008 and beyond. Federer was second best to one player on one surface. That is it. Use it however you want, but don't make it into more than it really is.
     
  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    If Laver was so blattantly owned by his nº2, he´d have 2 choices: retire or suicide
     
  8. NadalDramaQueen

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    I hate to say anything bad about Laver, since no one can help what era they play in or when they were born, but it is likely that Laver would have been in over his head in the current era against most of the players.
     
  9. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I had Rosewall at 34 minimum if always having been an amateur but "only" 25 majors in an always open era.

    You never understood my distinction between always open majors and always amateur majors. It is a big difference. But Laver would be behind Rosewall in both cases as some agree because Laver had a much shorter career as a top player.
     
  10. NadalDramaQueen

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    Yep, Federer was owned so completely by Nadal that he was unable to break nearly every open era record. :confused:
     
  11. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Here's the facts.
    2004 Miami USA Hard 32 NADAL 6-3 6-3
    2005 French Open FRA Clay SF NADAL 6-3 4-6 6-4 6-3
    2005 Miami USA Hard FR FEDERER 6-2 7-6(4) 6-7(5) 3-6 1-6
    2006 Tennis Masters Cup CHN Hard SF FEDERER 4-6 5-7
    2006 Wimbledon GBR Grass FR FEDERER 0-6 6-7(5) 7-6(2) 3-6
    2006 French Open FRA Clay FR NADAL 1-6 6-1 6-4 7-6(4)
    2006 Rome ITA Clay FR NADAL 6-7(0) 7-6(5) 6-4 2-6 7-6(5)
    2006 Monte Carlo MON Clay FR NADAL 6-2 6-7(2) 6-3 7-6(5)
    2006 Dubai UAE Hard FR NADAL 2-6 6-4 6-4
    2007 Tennis Masters Cup CHN Hard SF FEDERER 4-6 1-6
    2007 Wimbledon GBR Grass FR FEDERER 6-7(7) 6-4 6-7(3) 6-2 2-6
    2007 French Open FRA Clay FR NADAL 6-3 4-6 6-3 6-4
    2007 Hamburg GER Clay FR FEDERER 6-2 2-6 0-6
    2007 Monte Carlo MON Clay FR NADAL 6-4 6-4
    2008 Wimbledon GBR Grass FR NADAL 6-4 6-4 6-7(5) 6-7(8) 9-7
    2008 French Open FRA Clay FR NADAL 6-1 6-3 6-0
    2008 Hamburg GER Clay FR NADAL 7-5 6-7(3) 6-3
    2008 Monte Carlo MON Clay FR NADAL 7-5 7-5
    2009 Madrid ESP Clay FR FEDERER 4-6 4-6
    2009 Australian Open AUS Hard FR NADAL 7-5 3-6 7-6(3) 3-6 6-2
    2010 ATP World Tour Finals GBR Hard FR FEDERER 3-6 6-3 1-6
    2010 Madrid ESP Clay FR NADAL 6-4 7-6(5)
    2011 ATP World Tour Finals GBR Hard FEDERER 3-6 0-6
    2011 French Open FRA Clay FR NADAL 7-5 7-6(3) 5-7 6-1
    2011 Madrid ESP Clay SF NADAL 5-7 6-1 6-3
    2011 Miami USA Hard SF NADAL 6-3 6-2
    2012 Indian Wells USA Hard SF FEDERER 3-6 4-6
    2012 Australian Open AUS Hard SF NADAL 6-7(5) 6-2 7-6(5) 6-4

    Every player of course, no matter how terrific they are has some questions surrounding their resume. The thing that has always disturbed me about Federer is how even a young Nadal, who was not nearly the player he was to be was able to defeat Federer on hard court and battle him on a grass court. Yes I understand about the matchup problem but that's a part of the sport.

    For example Jimmy Connors was able to dominate a young Borg. Connors was able to dominate a young Lendl. Borg and Lendl weren't in their primes yet and were streamrolled by the great Connors.

    Yet Federer who you would think would streamroll a young Nadal on fast surfaces was not able to.

    Before people complain I do think Federer has GOAT credentials but it's a problem when you analyze the history.

    Did Federer really decline in 2008 at the very young age of 27 or was it Nadal improving that may it seem that he declined? Clearly Nadal has never dominated to the extent Federer did? What are the answers?

    In a way it's sort of like the Steffi Graf/Monica Seles problem.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  12. piece

    piece Professional

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    Great list. Think this is almost exactly how I'd do it.

    One question, is the order on each row in the bold grouping supposed to indicate anything, like ranking? I see it's alphabetical with the exception of Sampras. Does that mean everyone on each row is interchangeable except for Sampras who is definitively ranked fifth?
     
  13. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Plaese, elaborate.Laver would be nice enough to do it for you...
     
  14. NadalDramaQueen

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    Thank you for a post where you don't hate on one particular player!

    There is no problem with playing the hypothetical game with your favorite player, especially when they were not given a "fair shake" at winning open majors. Just don't expect everyone to agree with you.
     
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Nadal and Djokovic used to beat GOAT Federer even though Roger was yet in his prime...
     
  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes, the difference was Borg and much later Lendl found a way to dominate Connors ( although Lendl did it in Connors no prime while Borg woned Connors´peak)..Has Federer solved the equation?

    Fedn is an all time great talent by IMo, 2 things put him in second or third tier ( even with his massive slams wins).

    -weakest era of the last 50 years
    -.owned at will by Nadal
     
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Your logic is impressive.

    Fact is:Federer made so many records because he played in a weak era plus he lost to Nadal when Rafa improved into his prime...
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    in 2004¡¡¡ Nadal was whipping the floor with Federer¡¡¡ Nadal was not even 18¡¡¡¡
     
  19. piece

    piece Professional

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    Just look at Federer's win/loss record in 2008 compared to his previous four years. Sure, Nadal contributed to that record by beating Federer four times in 2008, but he did the same in 2006 when Federer's overall record far surpassed his 2008 record. It's clear then that Federer's apparent decline in 2008 cannot reasonably be solely attributed to Nadal's apparent improvement.
     
  20. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    You explained the matter better than I could.
     
  21. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    pc1 can't even get the H2H results in the correct order.
     
  22. NadalDramaQueen

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    Who is saying that Federer has no problems in his resume? As to the Graf/Seles problem, are you suggesting that Federer wouldn't have had as big of a problem if someone were to stab Nadal in the back?

    It is obvious that Nadal troubled Federer even when he was a kid. I saw it, was upset about it back then, and still don't understand it. Despite that, Federer still put together an extremely impressive four years, and is still playing at a high level today when he is past his prime and Nadal and Djokovic are in their's.

    What would happen if Nadal met Federer at his peak in a non-clay slam? I don't know, because it never happened.

    As I first started watching tennis in the late 80's, I don't often come to this forum (former pro player) except to reply to people who are obviously bashing a player just because he has captured everyone's attention.

    What Laver has said on the subject is good enough for me. He isn't so arrogant to be 100% sure of what was going to happen when you discuss impossible situations.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  23. NadalDramaQueen

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    Federer just bageled Djokovic and and beat him at Wimbledon at 31. What is your point?
     
  24. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I don't hate any player!!
     
  25. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Death punishing for him?
     
  26. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    2008 was not Fed´s prime? he was 26, right?
     
  27. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I didn't say that people said that Federer has nothing wrong with his resume. I am simply writing that it's something that is still a little blemish and as a person who tries to analyze tennis stats and history I look to see what are the possible reasons.

    Notice I wrote I do think Federer is a GOAT candidate.

    My response was that you wrote Federer was declining in 2008 and I'm not sure of that.
     
  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I'm baffled: Is Federer not in his prime now or is he yet in his prime??

    You should know that Djokovic is weaker now than he was before.
     
  29. NadalDramaQueen

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    Right, if we're going by results, then it wasn't Fed's peak (or prime), although it was part of his physical prime.

    He lost to Djoko and Nadal in slams that year at the age of 26 to 27. He just beat Djokovic in a slam at 31 when Djokovic was only 25. If the former counts against Federer, the latter should count for him.
     
  30. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Right, so Djokovic at 25, one season after his best season ever, is now weaker and that should count against Federer.
     
  31. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    [​IMG]
     
  32. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Most biassed post ever.You triple the addition of TMF,ABMK,fed rulz ALL TOGETHER...
     
  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    nO¡¡¡ His chess mind still has to solve why Vines is better than Kodes.
     
  34. NadalDramaQueen

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    Right, you should know that I don't mean that you are bashing Federer.

    As I have heard fans of Nadal use to discuss Nadal, if you were watching Federer closely, you would know that he wasn't the same in 2008. It wasn't just in the matches against Djokovic and Nadal.

    That is my opinion. The facts are that his 2008 was his worst season since 2003 and the start of him not winning as often.

    As for Djokovic, Federer has shown that he has more than enough talent to hang with Djokovic even when he is past his prime. Federer has always had the Nadal problem.
     
  35. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    How is saying that 2008, with reference to results, was a bad year for Federer being biased?

    Look at 2008 and the years between 2004-2007 and pick the worst year. Learn how to read.

    The second statement I made just listed things that actually happened, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  36. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    2008 Fed, at 26 is the best possible Roger Federer.That is the best year for athletes, other than swimmers...
     
  37. piece

    piece Professional

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    Here's Federer's winning percentages for the years 2004-2008 (inclusive).

    2004 - 92.5%
    2005 - 95.3%
    2006 - 94.8%
    2007 - 88.3%
    2008 - 81.5%

    Notice the sharp drop-off in 2007, then again in 2008. Federer actually had a winning record against Nadal over the course of 2007, so this drop should not be attributed to Nadal. Likewise in 2008, though Federer lost four times to Nadal, we should not attribute the decline in his winning percentage solely to Nadal's apparent improvement because Federer also lost four times to Nadal in 2006 yet had his second best year ever by winning percentage.
     
  38. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I understand what you mean.
     
  39. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Yet it wasn't his best year.

    Thank you. I am not here to proclaim Federer as the goat. I am only trying to get people to stop bashing him at every opportunity.
     
  40. NadalDramaQueen

    NadalDramaQueen Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for posting.

    Your interpretation of the statistics is reasonable, but debatable. Kiki and BobbyOne don't seem to understand that only the facts are true, and not necessarily their own interpretations of them.
     
  41. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I've actually done some analysis of those years and I think I do know the reasons but I won't say for now.
     
  42. NadalDramaQueen

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    Sounds interesting. Perhaps you should make a thread about this.
     
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I'm "bashing" Federer only when people, for instance almost all posters on GeneralPPD, overrate Roger as the ultimate GOAT, not considering that Federer played in a weak era, that 17 majors is very good but not overwhelming in comparison to Rosewall and Laver and that the GOAT should have a better backhand than he actually has...
     
  44. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Is it a fault of Fed to play in such a weak era? not¡¡¡

    But, anyhow, it is a factor that has to be strictly weightned when talking about GOATS¡¡¡

    Fed´s era weakness is just comparable, over the last 50 years, with the Emerson/Santana/Stolle strenghold of the amateur players in the middle 60´s...
     
  45. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    You pointed it out exactly!!
     
  46. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    In fact, tracing back , imagine Federer,Nadal and Djokovic with the amateurs...and Laver,Hoad,Rosewall and Gonzales ( the best ever foursome before Borg/Mac/connors/Lendl) playing another tour¡¡¡

    problem is newtards don´t have a clue on tennis history.
     
  47. Iron Man

    Iron Man Rookie

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    you're bashing Federer not because of what u said but because you hate him knowing that he's better than your worshipped heroes

    in most of your posts , along with some few members here , you try by all means to belittle Federer and his achievements and you keep repeating the same bla bla bla ( weak era , head to head with Nadal etc)

    on the contrary you overrate players who have neither the talent of Federer nor his resume ( palmarés) .

    Anyway , I THINK many young posters proved that they're are more reasonable and objective than so - called experts here :-?
     
  48. NadalDramaQueen

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    So, you are saying that because GeneralPPD is full of tards, you should also act like a **** here in former pro player talk?

    Of course, everything is game. The disturbing thing is that you bring up the weak era argument like it is a fact, when it is not.

    Everything in tennis is relative to the players you play. Your weak era could be a strong era with a couple of extreme outliers or it could really be a weak era.

    Laver et al. could have been an extremely weak era with a player who was somewhat of an outlier but with much more parity in general.

    What you don't seem to understand is that there is no way to be sure about these things. All you can say is that "I've watched said players" and I know they were greats. This isn't a fact.

    A fact would be something like, there are more players in the possible pool to play professional tennis now than there were in the 60's and 70's.

    Now, in general, in sports where performance is measured directly, this larger pool will mean that greater athletes will emerge. The average athlete will become better along with the top athletes with respect to a smaller pool. It is possible that Laver was as good as a Federer, Nadal, or Djokovic, but it is less likely.

    Now, in my opinion, this shouldn't be held against Laver, because he couldn't help any of these things, but to try and say the reverse of what is likely true is kind of pathetic.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2012
  49. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    The amazing thing is how ******* has found the fountain of youth!
     
  50. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    yes, we have seen how the great, big pool has turned into Grand Slam titles winners...truly pathetic and a big worldwide failure...
     

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