Worst ATP finals in history?

[Waspsting]

Is this the worst ATP finals/Year end championship?

Probably not - but I appreciate and understand the sentiment

For example 1976 - Solomon, Gottfried, Ramirez, Vilas, Fibak, Orantes, Dibbs and Tanner... 1 Slam between the lot of them at that point. 6 for their combined careers - and 3 of those were weak field Australian Opens

Borg and Connors AWOL

Not uncommon to skip YEC at the time... Connors skipped 74-76, which is roughly equivalent to if Federer had skipped 2004-06

 

[Pagoo]

I would like to know what the OP is basing his assertion on.

Quality of play? Achievements or star power? If it's quality of play, then 2014 is certainly the worst in recent times. The field isn't strong but the matches have been okay (at least some).

 

[Incognito]

Worst was when DelPo lost that final in 2009.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Worst was when DelPo lost that final in 2009.

One of the best WTF ever.

 

[Deleted member 512391]

Worst was when DelPo lost that final in 2009.

The 2009 WTF is arguably the best in the last 20 years.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

The 2009 WTF is arguably the best in the last 20 years.

Yes. 2009 was the strongest year imo so it is not surprising the WTF was crazy good.

 

[George Turner]

Without a host of star names it will always likely to be below par, we knew Nadal was injured aswell. PCB isn't good enough but he gave his best shot against Thiem and made it a decent match, it's not all his fault. Thiem himself is not an indoor courter but he's not the first to qualify on the back of clay court results. Goffin was dire against Dimitrov, matches like that don't help.

Doesn't diminish the achievement of winning it, the USO field was garbage but no one can take Nadal's trophy away

 

[Deleted member 512391]

Yes. 2009 was the strongest year imo so it is not surprising the WTF was crazy good.

Indeed, Federer, Delpo, Murray, Davydenko, Soderling, even Djokovic, all in great form.
The Davy - Fed SF was one of their best matches and a very good match overall. Davydenko beating Federer for the first time, after many defeats, and then producing the masterclass in the final against Delpo. I'm surprised that the strategy (hitting to the middle and giving him no angles) he executed to perfection in that final isn't used by other players against Delpo.
The fight between Fed, Murray and Delpo in the group stage and Djokovic, Soderling and Davydenko in another group was extremely entertaining. The tennis they played was of the highest quality. Etc.

 

[Deleted member 77403]

Indeed, Federer, Delpo, Murray, Davydenko, Soderling, even Djokovic, all in great form.
The Davy - Fed SF was one of their best matches and a very good match overall. Davydenko beating Federer for the first time, after many defeats, and then producing the masterclass in the final against Delpo. I'm surprised that the strategy (hitting to the middle and giving him no angles) he executed to perfection in that final isn't used by other players against Delpo.
The fight between Fed, Murray and Delpo in the group stage and Djokovic, Soderling and Davydenko in another group was extremely entertaining. The quality of tennis was of the highest quality. Etc.

Couldn't say it any better.

 

[Incognito]

One of the best WTF ever.

Wrong winner

 

[Tennis_Hands]

I have no argument here actually, this has literally nothing to do with the women's tour. I did a thread to gauge opinions, it generated discussion and was interesting to read. Fantastic.

Quit trying to bait, i'm not biting. Bye now.

You stared the thread with a certain implication.

Your thread IS your argument.

I only asked what the thoughts behind that argument are and as long as you do not provide any you are biting everyone, who would read this thread.

Pretty unashamed to accuse others of what you are doing just because you get called on it ( and I was not the only one who noticed that).

Other than that so far there were a couple of interesting matches ( Goffin - Nadal, Federer - Zverev, Sock- Cilic. Didn't get to see Thiem-PCB, but I see it mentioned as well. Hell, even Federer -Sock was somewhat interesting, even if to see the old man botch some BPs and boss around shaking his feathers) and even the whole entertainment value of the anticipated breakthrough of the "next gen" is enough for the tennis enthusiasts to not look down upon this year's event.

It is entertaining and the new faces deliver.

I would have said what ollinger said, but then I know that you would probably say that you meant until now, etc., so I will not get there.

 

[mike danny]

on paper sure but the matches so far have been better than years like 2014 for sure.

Yeah, if I remember correctly only one match in the groups stage in 2014 was a 3 setter. The rest were straight set downers.

 

[mike danny]

The field is bad. But as long as the matches are good, who cares? I'd rather watch an entertaining match between 2 lesser players than a bad one between 2 top players.

 

[TheAssassin]

It is better than the 2014 edition but a lot of credit there goes to Novak and Federer for completely annihilating most of their opponents. The real stinker was that there was no final at all. The overall quality of the field though is worse in 2017 though.

 

[Aussie Darcy]

You stared the thread with a certain implication.

Your thread IS your argument.

I only asked what the thoughts behind that argument are and as long as you do not provide any you are biting everyone, who would read this thread.

Pretty unashamed to accuse others of what you are doing just because you get called on it ( and I was not the only one who noticed that).

Other than that so far there were a couple of interesting matches ( Goffin - Nadal, Federer - Zverev, Sock- Cilic. Didn't get to see Thiem-PCB, but I see it mentioned as well. Hell, even Federer -Sock was somewhat interesting, even if to see the old man botch some BPs and boss around shaking his feathers) and even the whole entertainment value of the anticipated breakthrough of the "next gen" is enough for the tennis enthusiasts to not look down upon this year's event.

It is entertaining and the new faces deliver.

I would have said what ollinger said, but then I know that you would probably say that you meant until now, etc., so I will not get there.

Indeed, I started the thread to read people's thoughts on this years WTF lineup and it has been thoroughly interesting (besides your stupid attempts to make this about the women's tour). Fun fact, I have an interest in both tours and can post about one and not have to post a thread about the other! I posted a thread the other day about the WTA's Jelena Dokic and her years of abuse but didn't do a thread on a male, guess that's a problem too hey? I don't have to do a thread on the women's finals because I did one on the men's, learn that.

I was asking if people thought this was the weakest final ever, judging by the response I think it was a fair question. Some agreed, some said the worst in the last 10 years and some said no. At least I posted a thread that generated discussion instead of sitting around waiting to troll people like you did.

 

[Aussie Darcy]

I would like to know what the OP is basing his assertion on.

Quality of play? Achievements or star power? If it's quality of play, then 2014 is certainly the worst in recent times. The field isn't strong but the matches have been okay (at least some).

Mostly just the quality of the field and the lack of players with big success. I agree with many that the matches have been good quality, think it's more just missing big match lineups.

 

[Chanwan]

I don't think this is the worst, but it just doesn't look to be as strong without 3 of the big 4. It's just hard to replace those guys.

This. Plenty of good tennis so far

 

[Chanwan]

Mostly just the quality of the field and the lack of players with big success. I agree with many that the matches have been good quality, think it's more just missing big match lineups.

That I can agree with

 

[Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil]

It is better than the 2014 edition but a lot of credit there goes to Novak and Federer for completely annihilating most of their opponents. The real stinker was that there was no final at all. The overall quality of the field though is worse in 2017 though.

Sorry but in 2014 we had Djovak and Mury play one first to 8 games set. No stinker, we were actually blessed.

 

[Sysyphus]

If you're primarily a fan of Nads, Djok, Muzz, or Stan, then yeah, I can see it being hard to get into.

If, like me, you enjoy several of the competing players (Dim, Fed, Thiem, Goffin, Sock), then no, it's not that bad.

 

[fedtennisphan]

If you're primarily a fan of Nads, Djok, Muzz, or Stan, then yeah, I can see it being hard to get into.

If, like me, you enjoy several of the competing players (Dim, Fed, Thiem, Goffin, Sock), then no, it's not that bad.

It’s only the worst because some think a certain player is going win.

 

[weelie]

To me, the world tour finals are always somewhat of a let down. Only the best, for top points, etc... but also tired players at the end of the season, dead rubbers etc.

 

[buscemi]

Probably not - but I appreciate and understand the sentiment

For example 1976 - Solomon, Gottfried, Ramirez, Vilas, Fibak, Orantes, Dibbs and Tanner... 1 Slam between the lot of them at that point. 6 for their combined careers - and 3 of those were weak field Australian Opens

Borg and Connors AWOL

Not uncommon to skip YEC at the time... Connors skipped 74-76, which is roughly equivalent to if Federer had skipped 2004-06

I think it's close between 1976 and 1971 for worst ever. 1971 featured:

Ilie Năstase: 0 Majors at the time; 2 for his career
Stan Smith: 1 Major at the time; 2 for his career
Cliff Richey: never made a Major final; career-high #6
Jan Kodes: 2 Majors at the time; 3 for his career
Pierre Barthès: never made a Major SF; 138-116 career record (Open Era); career-high #9
Željko Franulović: 1 Major final; career-high #8
Clark Graebner: 1 pre-Open Era Major final; no Open Era Major finals; career-high #7​

 

[ChaelAZ]

Meh. It is a weak field, but the matches have been decent for what it is. Favor Fed straight up though. None of them know how to beat him.

 

[Mugu]

It's lacking star power, and the field is a bit thin, but in terms of match quality it's nowhere near the worst so far.

Some interesting matches have already happened so far and we could get some fireworks once we are past the RR stage

match quality! now there's a thought. isn't that would everybody should really care about? sit back and enjoy, there's more great
tennis before this is over.

 

[papertank]

It may be a different crowd, but most of them deserve to be there.

Zverev won two Masters, beating Federer and Djokovic in the finals.

Thiem had an amazing year on clay, destroying everyone, even Nadal on one occasion.

Cilic reached the Wimbledon final and was very consistent at other events.

Goffin had a very impressive year. He has the most match wins outside Federer and Nadal, and this is with him having to take a couple months off for that ankle injury.

The only two that don't really deserve to be there in my opinion are Sock and Carreno Busta. Would have much prefered Del Potro. But PCB is only an alternate, and Sock has been playing pretty well actually. So I wouldn't say it's a bad finals lineup. Just different.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Indeed, I started the thread to read people's thoughts on this years WTF lineup and it has been thoroughly interesting (besides your stupid attempts to make this about the women's tour). Fun fact, I have an interest in both tours and can post about one and not have to post a thread about the other! I posted a thread the other day about the WTA's Jelena Dokic and her years of abuse but didn't do a thread on a male, guess that's a problem too hey? I don't have to do a thread on the women's finals because I did one on the men's, learn that.

I was asking if people thought this was the weakest final ever, judging by the response I think it was a fair question. Some agreed, some said the worst in the last 10 years and some said no. At least I posted a thread that generated discussion instead of sitting around waiting to troll people like you did.

The truth is that you started a thread with an opening post that revealed a little more than just an interest towards the WTF.

It was in fact a post s*****g all over the tournament.

Whether you realise that it is like that is another matter, but it is a fact.

You can post a thread about the one and not the other, but it sounds like you have a special attitude towards one of them for some reason.

I liked how you tried to pass the Dokic thread as a example of the lack of bias, when in reality it had exactly the same purpose as this one: if men are mentioned in your post then more often than not they are associated with something bad (mind you, I am not defending Dokic's father, as, from what is available as info, he seems to be a genuine piece of trash).

Same as in this thread, where you present them in utterly bad light ( this time in their professional capacity).

You are quick to accuse me, but when I asked you what your honest criteria for your OP were, you went aggressive and started throwing tantrums.

Now, I don't want to derail this thread so I will ask again something that is on topic (just like in my previous two posts) what are your criteria for a good tournament?

 

[KG1965]

1976: the 4th beats the number 14.

Manuel Orantes defeated Wojtek Fibak 5–7, 6–2, 0–6, 7–6(7–1), 6–1

 

[Chadillac]

Its 100 times better than the womens tour finals

 

[Tennis_Hands]

It may be a different crowd, but most of them deserve to be there.

Zverev won two Masters, beating Federer and Djokovic in the finals.

Thiem had an amazing year on clay, destroying everyone, even Nadal on one occasion.

Cilic reached the Wimbledon final and was very consistent at other events.

Goffin had a very impressive year. He has the most match wins outside Federer and Nadal, and this is with him having to take a couple months off for that ankle injury.

The only two that don't really deserve to be there in my opinion are Sock and Carreno Busta. Would have much prefered Del Potro. But PCB is only an alternate, and Sock has been playing pretty well actually. So I wouldn't say it's a bad finals lineup. Just different.

This.

Sock is 32-14 on HC this year and certainly had several impressive runs.

And look who he lost to in the most important HC tournaments :

AO: Tsonga (12) after a roller-coaster of a match uncluding two TBs.
IW: Federer
Miami: Nadal
Montreal: Ferrer after one lost TB
Cincinnati: Sugita
USO: J.Thompson
Shanghai: Dolgopolov

Of all those losses I would rate the one against Sugita the worst and Sugita is actually a somewhat decent player holding a ranking of 41 in the world atm.

Against the emerging Thompson he seems to have a matchup issue or was just unlucky ( especially their US Open match was a bit of an upset, but easy to see how he lost having to come back from two sets to love and not being able to finish the job in the end) as he lost all their matches in close contested battles.

 

[Deleted member 688153]

Meh. It is a weak field, but the matches have been decent for what it is. Favor Fed straight up though. None of them know how to beat him.

This. Obviously the field is rather pedestrian, but there's no reason to p00p on it like this thread is doing.

The matches have been exciting enough so far, and certainly better than some recent years when both groups have been totally NID, with peak Djokovic in group A and decent Fed or Nadal in B, vs nobody but eternal, ageing pigeons like Berdych who seem to be there by default and you'd bet your house on losing in straights.
Someone going 3-0 in both groups has been almost a certainty for ages. There is potential for good SF/F rounds here too.

 

[Boom-Boom]

1998 was pretty bad with

- all Spanish clay grinder final on ... indoor carpet (Moya-Corretja)
- one timer Kucera #6 in the draw (andlosing his 3 RR)
- Rios #2 WO after one game replaced by Costa #10
- Agassi #4 retiring during his first match replaced by Rusedski #9

 

[buscemi]

1998 was pretty bad with

- all Spanish clay grinder final on ... indoor carpet (Moya-Corretja)
- one timer Kucera #6 in the draw (andlosing his 3 RR)
- Rios #2 WO after one game replaced by Costa #10
- Agassi #4 retiring during his first match replaced by Rusedski #9

Yeah, and Rusedski actually went 2-0 in his matches but didn't advance.

 

[TearTheRoofOff]

It's lacking star power, and the field is a bit thin, but in terms of match quality it's nowhere near the worst so far.

Some interesting matches have already happened so far and we could get some fireworks once we are past the RR stage

Pretty much this.

 

[fedtennisphan]

Pretty much this.

Oh, it has plenty of star power but it’s the star that some have a problem with.

 

[Boom-Boom]

Yeah, and Rusedski actually went 2-0 in his matches but didn't advance.

he even went 4-0 in sets

 

[BGod]

Sock/Dimitrov & Federer/Thiem or Goffin

I mean, in hindsight this could be quite pitiful. Rooting for Fed/Sock Final hohoho.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

1998 was pretty bad with

- all Spanish clay grinder final on ... indoor carpet (Moya-Corretja)
- one timer Kucera #6 in the draw (andlosing his 3 RR)
- Rios #2 WO after one game replaced by Costa #10
- Agassi #4 retiring during his first match replaced by Rusedski #9

pete should never have lost that SF to corretja (indoors!)
i was disappointed...

 

[meltphace 6]

But will it blend?

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Oh, it has plenty of star power but it’s the star that some have a problem with.

That would be in line with the knee-jerk reaction that the men's tennis is in shambles and the future looks even worse.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

pete should never have lost that SF to corretja (indoors!)
i was disappointed...

Maybe that is why they changed the name: to reflect those unforgettable moments?

 

[Mainad]

pete should never have lost that SF to corretja (indoors!)
i was disappointed...

The 1998 YEC was 1 of 2 indoor hardcourt titles won by Corretja, the other being 2000 Toulouse (now defunct). In both cases he beat his fellow countryman Moya in the final.

 

[vive le beau jeu !]

The 1998 YEC was 1 of 2 indoor hardcourt titles won by Corretja, the other being 2000 Toulouse (now defunct). In both cases he beat his fellow countryman Moya in the final.

i went to the toulouse open ! (but not that year)
i saw goran and roger there... (among other players)

 

[tennis_pro]

My grandmother could be a threat to Thiem on hard courts.

You are totally underrating your grandmother here.

My grandmother would probably lose, though because she's almost 92 years old and can barely walk. But I still feel she could take a set.

 

[tennis_pro]

It's still kinda interesting despite the fact that Federer is the massive favorite.

The tournament is a bit like the FO back in the day. Some decent matches and the obvious winner.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

Now that Federer went out( didn't watch the match), I am curious to hear the thoughts of the OP.

Did the tournament just got worse or better?

Did he count all his chicken?

Thoughts?

 

[Spencer Gore]

It's the worst ever.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

It's the worst ever.

But isn't that what we are hoping for: that younger players will stop being in awe with the old legends and start taking their scalps?

Goffin has now beaten fair and square the #1 and #2 players to claim his spot in the final of the WTF.

Dimitrov, another in form player is also for the first time representing the lost generation accordingly.

The quality of the group matches was above average, IMO.

Why would that be bad?

 

[Spencer Gore]

But isn't that what we are hoping for: that younger players will stop being in awe with the old legends and start taking their scalps?

Goffin has now beaten fair and square the #1 and #2 players to claim his spot in the final of the WTF.

Dimitrov, another in form player is also for the first time representing the lost generation accordingly.

The quality of the group matches was above average, IMO.

Why would that be bad?

I want to see the younger players start to take their scalps in the slams. Not in a depleted end of season tournament where Nadal hobbled out after one match and Federer's season-long exertions had clearly left him exhausted.

 

[Tennis_Hands]

I want to see the younger players start to take their scalps in the slams. Not in a depleted end of season tournament where Nadal hobbled out after one match and Federer's season-long exertions had clearly left him exhausted.

How does their relative lack of success in the Majors make this tournament bad?

I don't understand your logic.

If anything, the fact that they pulled themselves together to fight for the 5th most prestigious tournament of the tennis calendar should elevate the status of this year's edition.

Explain.