Worst ATP finals in history?

Worst ATP Finals in history?

  • Yes

  • No

  • ???

  • Worst in the last 10 years


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How does their relative lack of success in the Majors make this tournament bad?

I don't understand your logic.

If anything, the fact that they pulled themselves together to fight for the 5th most prestigious tournament of the tennis calendar should elevate the status of this year's edition.

Explain.

:cool:
Because the best players in the world are either missing or they hobbled out after one match. It's become the "last-man-standing" exhibition tournament.
 
D

Deleted member 688153

Guest
A Dimitrov vs Goffin would be refreshing and interesting. I don’t mind at all.
Agreed.
I've tried to be mad all morning about Fed's loss - but I just can't.

I'm a bit salty maybe, but honestly what does it really matter?
He already has the record there, plus two slams this year that I never expected. He has nothing to prove.
He wasn't getting the YE#1 anyway, and I'm also really fine with any of the remaining guys winning the event (but hoping most for Dimitrov).
 
Because the best players in the world are either missing or they hobbled out after one match. It's become the "last-man-standing" exhibition tournament.

Again.

All tennis players have had a long season, including the ones that are now in the final.

Also, neither Nadal nor Federer were particularly overplaying in the last two to three weeks, so you cannot chalk it all up to a long season.

Neither of them is injured.

Moreover, Goffin actually played well against Nadal.

It is not like Nadal gifted him their match and the tough loss might have actually been the tipping point for Nadal's decision to withdraw ( tough luck as this might have not been over still).

And all this still doesn't address how this particular edition of the WTF is particularly bad ( according to you and the OP) compared to other/all? previous editions.

At least in the recent decades it has been always held at the same time.

Also, how is the effort of both Goffin and Dimitrov not impressive?
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
A Dimitrov vs Goffin would be refreshing and interesting. I don’t mind at all.
Agreed.
I've tried to be mad all morning about Fed's loss - but I just can't.

I'm a bit salty maybe, but honestly what does it really matter?
He already has the record there, plus two slams this year that I never expected. He has nothing to prove.
He wasn't getting the YE#1 anyway, and I'm also really fine with any of the remaining guys winning the event (but hoping most for Dimitrov).
Not sure if this is sarcasm?
'Refreshing and interesting'? They played 3 days ago and Dimitrov destroyed Goffin 6-0 6-2.... it's not like they have a great rivalry or that this match is something we haven't seen in a while.. we've seen it and it was a demolition.

Anyway, kind of cheering for Goffin, beating Fed and Nadal in the same event is very rare, hope he gets some epic revenge over Dimitrov.
 
D

Deleted member 688153

Guest
Not sure if this is sarcasm?
'Refreshing and interesting'? They played 3 days ago and Dimitrov destroyed Goffin 6-0 6-2.... it's not like they have a great rivalry or that this match is something we haven't seen in a while.. we've seen it and it was a demolition.

Anyway, kind of cheering for Goffin, beating Fed and Nadal in the same event is very rare, hope he gets some epic revenge over Dimitrov.
It's refreshing and interesting to have two non-Big 4's in the final, and also because Goffin has redeemed himself since that match.
It should be great - maybe not the end to the year we were hoping for, but still a fun, uncertain final with two great and likeable top tennis players.

Failing to see the problem tbh.
 
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Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
Again.

All tennis players have had a long season, including the ones that are now in the final.

Also, neither Nadal nor Federer were particularly overplaying in the last two to three weeks, so you cannot chalk it all up to a long season.

Neither of them is injured.

Moreover, Goffin actually played well against Nadal.

It is not like Nadal gifted him their match and the tough loss might have actually been the tipping point for Nadal's decision to withdraw ( tough luck as this might have not been over still).

And all this still doesn't address how this particular edition of the WTF is particularly bad ( according to you and the OP) compared to other/all? previous editions.

At least in the recent decades it has been always held at the same time.

Also, how is the effort of both Goffin and Dimitrov not impressive?
Well it's mostly the quality of the field. The matches have been mostly decent but find me tennis fans that would say they'd rather pay to see a Goffin v Dimitrov final over Fed v Nadal when the latter two had the best years and are the top 2 seeds whilst Goffin didn't make a slam SF, win a Masters or even make a Masters final. It's nice to see new faces but it's not like they're the next gen and young guns. Dimi and Goffin are both 26, it's not Thiem v Zverev.

The runs of both players is impressive yes, but will this be remembered as a strong or weak WTF in future years? I feel the answer to that is pretty strong.

Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion but when you look back on the more recent years, the fields are a lot better (2014 is of course a question mark with a good field but one sided matches and a walkover final).
 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
It's refreshing and interesting to have two non-Big 4's in the final, and also because Goffin has redeemed himself since that match.
It should be great - maybe not the end to the year we were hoping for, but still a fun, uncertain final with two great and likeable top tennis players.

Failing to see the problem tbh.
Fun and uncertain yes but as you said, not the final we were hoping for or expecting. The two biggest players of the year not making the final or even having someone in the final who's made a slam final. Goffin is a great player, I'm a big fan but he's got no Masters titles or finals, no slam title, final or SF and yet could snag the WTF? It's not great. Perhaps you can see why I'm suggesting this may not be the best WTF we've seen. Not the worst no but definitely not the best by a long shot.
 
D

Deleted member 688153

Guest
Fun and uncertain yes but as you said, not the final we were hoping for or expecting. The two biggest players of the year not making the final or even having someone in the final who's made a slam final. Goffin is a great player, I'm a big fan but he's got no Masters titles or finals, no slam title, final or SF and yet could snag the WTF? It's not great. Perhaps you can see why I'm suggesting this may not be the best WTF we've seen. Not the worst no but definitely not the best by a long shot.
I don't think anyone would argue that it's the best we've seen.

Fed was a relative minnow when he won Wimbledon in 2003. Just because they don't have too much on the shelf doesn't mean they're not currently playing the best tennis - which is evident from the fact they made the final. In my opinion, if the top players deserved to be in this final they'd have reached it.

I would tip one of these two guys to enjoy a lot of future success too. He's already won the Real Slam this year. ;)

So I don't think it's fair to overly criticise this event. These eight guys are by definition the top competitors of the year.
 

Tshooter

G.O.A.T.
I thought the Sock-Dimi match was good. Sock's forehand is the future. I didn't like the constant jabbering by the TC commentator.

 

Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
I don't think anyone would argue that it's the best we've seen.

Fed was a relative minnow when he won Wimbledon in 2003. Just because they don't have too much on the shelf doesn't mean they're not currently playing the best tennis - which is evident from the fact they made the final. In my opinion, if the top players deserved to be in this final they'd have reached it.

I would tip one of these two guys to enjoy a lot of future success too. He's already won the Real Slam this year. ;)

So I don't think it's fair to overly criticise this event. These eight guys are by definition the top competitors of the year.
Well it's a real stretch to compare a younger Federer to a 26 year old Goffin. And Fed had won a Masters title and made two more finals by the time he won his first slam BTW.

I agree that if they deserved to be in the final then they shouldn't have lost but the WTF for me should be the year end champion, the best player of the year. It's why I've hated the last 3 WTA YEC winners as none were even close to being the best player of the year but at least each of the 3 (Wozniacki, Cibulkova, Radwanska) were former slam finalists and had won big
titles. I truly hope Goffin has a big 2018 but I can equally seeing him just remain in the top 20 without any big impact. I really hope he uses this as a stepping stone for bigger things though.
 

Fedinkum

Legend
Not sure if this is sarcasm?
'Refreshing and interesting'? They played 3 days ago and Dimitrov destroyed Goffin 6-0 6-2.... it's not like they have a great rivalry or that this match is something we haven't seen in a while.. we've seen it and it was a demolition.

Anyway, kind of cheering for Goffin, beating Fed and Nadal in the same event is very rare, hope he gets some epic revenge over Dimitrov.
But they haven’t played each other in an ATP Final final, right? With momentum on a big stage, players can raise their games. Both are good players, as long as they bring their comparative tennis on the day, it can be good final!
 

Gary Duane

G.O.A.T.
Not sure if this is sarcasm?
'Refreshing and interesting'? They played 3 days ago and Dimitrov destroyed Goffin 6-0 6-2.... it's not like they have a great rivalry or that this match is something we haven't seen in a while.. we've seen it and it was a demolition.

Anyway, kind of cheering for Goffin, beating Fed and Nadal in the same event is very rare, hope he gets some epic revenge over Dimitrov.
If Goffin wins tomorrow after his horrible loss to Dimitrov earlier this week, lots of people are doing to question the whole RR format, which I personally do not like.
 

Moose Malloy

G.O.A.T.
If Goffin wins tomorrow after his horrible loss to Dimitrov earlier this week, lots of people are doing to question the whole RR format, which I personally do not like.

Interesting, I don't recall anyone questioning the format when Sampras beat Agassi in the 99 Final after losing to Agassi 6-2,6-2 in the RR. Well maybe Agassi did(he looked super pissed after the match, and sulked throughout the trophy presentation)

Sampras was injured at the 99 USO and barely had played for months when he played his RR match with Agassi. He then won 4 matches in a row, talk about playing yourself into form!
 

Newballs

Professional
Agreed.
I've tried to be mad all morning about Fed's loss - but I just can't.

I'm a bit salty maybe, but honestly what does it really matter?
He already has the record there, plus two slams this year that I never expected. He has nothing to prove.
He wasn't getting the YE#1 anyway, and I'm also really fine with any of the remaining guys winning the event (but hoping most for Dimitrov).
Funny that you tried to be mad...
 
Fun and uncertain yes but as you said, not the final we were hoping for or expecting. The two biggest players of the year not making the final or even having someone in the final who's made a slam final. Goffin is a great player, I'm a big fan but he's got no Masters titles or finals, no slam title, final or SF and yet could snag the WTF? It's not great. Perhaps you can see why I'm suggesting this may not be the best WTF we've seen. Not the worst no but definitely not the best by a long shot.

So from this post follows:

According to you :

1) the quality of a tournament depends on whether the winner was already a Major winner, finalist or SF, a winner of M1000, quality of the play be damned

Not only this, but quality of the tournament depends now on the quality of the play of the winner alone, and lol and behold your sneaky tactic here, you made the thread before knowing who was even going to win the SFs and was criticising the players/level of play in the early stages, where Goffin had his work cut out for him with a loss and a hard fought win, while now you are concentrating on the more attackable player purely based on his previous accolades, conviniently forgetting his level of play, grit or actual performance

2) How are younger players, who by definition could qualify for the event by playing well all year, but are still getting traction in the Majors mostly because of lack of experience or other circumstances, going to get their confidence going, if they are seen as unworthy of winning this event?

According to you: they are not going to do it in any such way regardless of the fact that if he wins this he will have then a prestigious title to his name

And, you know, he actually beat both Nadal and Federer to be in that final, so don't give me this crap about " how on earth a player like him is going to win it? ".

If he does it will be because he beat #1, #2 and as currently stands #3 in the world!!!

3) in another post of yours you said that according to you the " WTF should be the year end champion, the best player of the year"

Do you understand that the winner of the WTF ( if that is what you call the year end champion) and the best player of the year are two different things?

If you do why are you mixing those things on purpose?

If you have a problem with the format, why not open the discussion about the merits of a RR format, because as far as I know the "best player of the year" is not given a direct entry to the final (not here, not anywhere else currently) nor are there requirements for players to have won big titles or been in big finals to be allowed to participate (it would be interesting someone like you to hint at such massive discriminatory conditions)

You said that you like Goffin and are a fan and at the same time say that he is undeserving finalist here despite of his actually very good level here, his results and earning the right to participate with a year long effort that included a very strong season on HC at the end of the season. Both things do not go well together, if you don’t know that.

Also, you are now reverting to personal judgement to become the father of all judgements.

Not what "we were hoping for".

Who are "we"?

Because noone anointed you to be the voice of the tennis community even in this small place.

There are plenty of tennis fans (me included) that are enjoying the tournament and think that it is a great tournament with very enjoyable finalists. Despite of being a Federer fan I am not one bit sad that he got the boot and am very much looking forward to watching the final ( much more than in the previous 2-3 years actually).
 
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Aussie Darcy

Bionic Poster
So from this post follows:

According to you :

1) the quality of a tournament depends on whether the winner was already a Major winner, finalist or SF, a winner of M1000, quality of his play be damned

Not only this, but quality of the tournament depends now on the quality of the play of the winner alone, and lol and behold your sneaky tactic here, you made the thread before knowing who was even going to win the SFs and was criticising the players/level of play in the early stages, where Goffin had his work cut out for him with a loss and a hard fought win, while now you are concentrating on the more attackable player purely based on his previous accolades, conviniently forgetting his level of play, grit or actual performance

2) How are younger players, who by definition could qualify for the event by playing well all year, but are still getting traction in the Majors mostly because of lack of experience or other circumstances, going to get their confidence going, if they are seen as unworthy of winning this event?

According to you: they are not going to do it in any such way regardless of the fact that if he wins this he will have then a prestigious title to his name

And, you know, he actually beat both Nadal and Federer to be in that final, so don't give me this crap about " how on earth a player like him is going to win it? ".

If he does it will be because he beat #1, #2 and as currently stands #3 in the world!!!

3) in another post of yours you said that according to you the " WTF should be the year end champion, the best player of the year"

Do you understand that the winner of the WTF ( if that is what you call the year end champion) and the best player of the year are two different things?

If you do why are you mixing those things on purpose?

If you have a problem with the format, why not open the discussion about the merits of a RR format, because as far as I know the "best player of the year" is not given a direct entry to the final (not here, not anywhere else currently) nor are there requirements for players to have won big titles or been in big finals to be allowed to participate (it would be interesting someone like you to hint at such massive discriminatory conditions)

You said that you like Goffin and are a fan and at the same time say that he is undeserving finalist here despite of his actually very good level here, his results and earning the right to participate with a year long effort that included a very strong season on HC at the end of the season. Both things do not go well together, if you don’t know that.

Also, you are now reverting to personal judgement to become the father of all judgements.

Not what "we were hoping for".

Who are "we"?

Because noone anointed you to be the voice of the tennis community even in this small place.

There are plenty of tennis fans (me included) that are enjoying the tournament and think that it is a great tournament with very enjoyable finalists. Despite of being a Federer fan I am not one bit sad that he got the boot and am very much looking forward to watching the final ( much more than in the previous 2-3 years actually).
Geez, you have WAY too much time on your hands, I don't care enough about this to spend my time deconstructing your very long post. I've stated my feelings, quit being a pain in my side and attacking everything I post. Trying to make me seem like I've anointed myself as leader cause I dared to use the word 'we'. Just lay off, this isn't some massive argument.
 
Geez, you have WAY too much time on your hands, I don't care enough about this to spend my time deconstructing your very long post. I've stated my feelings, quit being a pain in my side and attacking everything I post. Trying to make me seem like I've anointed myself as leader cause I dared to use the word 'we'. Just lay off, this isn't some massive argument.

I thought you wanted to have a discussion or was that only a pretext?

In any event, since I presented my thoughts and you don't have anything to further your argument with, it seems that the thread has run its course as far as you are concerned.

Also, you created a thread about it, so maybe you lay off.

:cool:
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Is this the worst ATP finals/Year end championship?

Of the 9 players who've played (the 8 who qualified plus alternate PCB), only 3 were slam champions or had made a slam final.
3 of the 9 players have never made a slam SF, 2 of those have never even made a slam QF.

Well, I guess the slams are everything.
 

thrust

Legend
I don't think this is the worst, but it just doesn't look to be as strong without 3 of the big 4. It's just hard to replace those guys.
Not really, I very much enjoyed the match. I like both guys, so was not unhappy that Dimitrov won, though I was rooting for Goffin. Both guys gave their all and provided a very entertaining well played match. Tennis WILL survive after Fedal retire, just as it has when previous greats retired.
 

sportmac

Hall of Fame
I like both players well enough (was rooting for Goffin) but the best in the world are in their 30's and for 2018 it seems like all people talk about is the return of three more 30+ year old's.

I don't see how anyone can get excited about the future of the ATP at this point. This is what it's going to look like in a few years. As for the participants of the nextgen spectacle, I'll be impressed if half of them break the top 30 next year (not including Zverev obviously).
 

fedtennisphan

Hall of Fame
Heretic! Blasphemer!

Tennis did not exist before Fed. All was formless void.
There will be no life after Fed. The world will end.

Ha! Ha! A poster with a Rod Laver avatar hating on Federer when it was Federer that wanted to create the Laver Cup to honor Laver. No other top player would ever do that because they are too busy with individual goals to honor players from the past.
 
This one wasn't great but it wasn't the worse either. It was a pretty decent ending overall with someone besides Federer, Djokovic or Murray winning it which was good.
 
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