Push vs Pull serves

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sureshs

Bionic Poster
Anyone heard of this classification?

Subject: Can You Tell a Push Serve from a Pull Serve? Tennisplayer February 2017

The Push Serve and the Pull Serve Dr. Ben Kilber

For decades the debate on serve stances has continued--let’s say without consensus. Now noted orthopedic surgeon and tennis researcher Dr. Ben Kibler shares the results of his study of professional players that changes all that—or should. See Ben’s explanation of stances work and the critical role on the back foot in two prevailing serve types: The Push and the Pull.


chas? sys anomaly?
 
jm1980

jm1980

Talk Tennis Guru
"As a leading research sports science and past chairman of the USTA Sports Science Committee, Dr. Ben Kibler has been studying the literature on the serve as well as filming, studying, and evaluating players for years. Now he publishes some of his conclusions for the first time on Tennisplayer.

In this first article in the series, Ben makes a fundamental distinction between two ways players use the legs and the trunk—the Push Serve versus the Pull. What is the chain of events that best maximizes racket speed, ball speed and spin and reduces the chance of injury? What stances are associated with the Push and which with the Pull?

Find out why the Push Serve is highly preferable."

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/biomechanics/ben_kibler/the_push_serve_pull_serve/
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
I first mentally associated push with pushing the ball and thought that it is like dinking the ball in or arming it, while pull would be more about SSC and release. Seems I was wrong since Push is regarded as better per above.
 
Bender

Bender

G.O.A.T.
I noticed that there is a much larger push element involved when hitting flat serves. Anything with spin though, I find tends to be almost 100% pull.
sureshs said:
Thanks. I am always trying to advance the cause of tennis fundamentals to a wider audience.
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Interesting choice of words...
 
T

TennisCJC

Legend
Cannot view the video but a good serve just like a good FH and BH and a good baseball pitcher or a good football pass, is based on the legs and core pulling the arm, hand and racket. Notice how a baseball pitch turns his shoulders away from home plate and loads weight onto the back leg. Then it is leg push, core rotation forward and finally the arm pulled forward. The pitcher's chest and shoulders will open to face home plate while the hand and ball will lag behind the opening of the core/hips/chest/shoulders. In my less than humble opinion, the core is pulling the arm. You can also make a solid argument that ISR (internal shoulder rotation) is pulling the racket head and whipping it into contact.

I don't see a lot of "push" in a serve, pitch or throw OTHER THAN, you can say the legs push up and into the contact. Some will say jump but for this discussion, I don't think it is pertinent - push or jump. The legs are pushing, jumping, driving into contact but that's the only thing I would equate to a push action.
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
TennisCJC said:
Cannot view the video but a good serve just like a good FH and BH and a good baseball pitcher or a good football pass, is based on the legs and core pulling the arm, hand and racket. Notice how a baseball pitch turns his shoulders away from home plate and loads weight onto the back leg. Then it is leg push, core rotation forward and finally the arm pulled forward. The pitcher's chest and shoulders will open to face home plate while the hand and ball will lag behind the opening of the core/hips/chest/shoulders. In my less than humble opinion, the core is pulling the arm. You can also make a solid argument that ISR (internal shoulder rotation) is pulling the racket head and whipping it into contact.

I don't see a lot of "push" in a serve, pitch or throw OTHER THAN, you can say the legs push up and into the contact. Some will say jump but for this discussion, I don't think it is pertinent - push or jump. The legs are pushing, jumping, driving into contact but that's the only thing I would equate to a push action.
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I think the terms may be used in the article in a way different from what we are thinking
 
G

GuyClinch

Legend
I don't get it. And since I don't subscribe I will never know. Maybe if you catch the ball really late - that's a pull serve and bad? Really doesn't make sense to me.
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
The blind speculating about what they can't see but want to talk about anyway...that's funny... has to do with the role of the legs versus the role of the abs.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
SinjinCooper said:
Dr. Ben Kibler's "The Kinetic Chain in Tennis: Do You Push Or Pull?"

http://www.aspetar.com/journal/viewarticle.aspx?id=6
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i need more pictures/diagrams to understand that...
seems like i (most?) start with the push, and finish with a pull... but according to the article, you are one or the other....
i picture some wta players not fully maximizing their legs in the push phase, as well as others do... but is that considered a "pull" serve?
 
T

TennisCJC

Legend
SinjinCooper said:
Dr. Ben Kibler's "The Kinetic Chain in Tennis: Do You Push Or Pull?"

http://www.aspetar.com/journal/viewarticle.aspx?id=6
Click to expand...

I read the article and it sounds like a really complicated way to explain a couple of simple concepts.

Push in k-chain in the serve: my interpretation is the article is saying this is the high level serve that uses leg drive to push up into contact. attributes: more knee bend, steeper shoulder tilt angle with back shoulder down and front shoulder up, more topspin on serve and good shoulder over shoulder action.

Pull in k-chain in the serve: my interpretation is the article is saying these types of serve depend predominately on shoulder rotation. attributes: less knee bend, less shoulder tilt angle, less topspin on serve. If you were doing the drill where you open you shoulders to the net and then rotate shoulders away and serve without involving legs, this is a pull k-chain.

But for me:

1. Good servers use both push and pull. Yes, in a good serves, the legs start the k-chain by pushing up but there is a lot of shoulder rotation as well as shoulder over shoulder action. Both actions are involved and the energy flows through continuously and smoothly in a top level serve.
2. Good servers that have small knee bend still use push: Wawrinka has less knee bend that most pros but he still pushes upward with his legs. Johan Kriek and another European from the 1980s and early 1990s also used little knee bend but had big serves.

If you are going to go by the way the article presents the facts, you want to work on push k-chain. But, my view is in reality you will use both. I think the drill of not using legs and only using shoulder rotation is an excellent 1st step in serving and then you can add in leg push.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
TennisCJC said:
I read the article and it sounds like a really complicated way to explain a couple of simple concepts.

Push in k-chain in the serve: my interpretation is the article is saying this is the high level serve that uses leg drive to push up into contact. attributes: more knee bend, steeper shoulder tilt angle with back shoulder down and front shoulder up, more topspin on serve and good shoulder over shoulder action.

Pull in k-chain in the serve: my interpretation is the article is saying these types of serve depend predominately on shoulder rotation. attributes: less knee bend, less shoulder tilt angle, less topspin on serve. If you were doing the drill where you open you shoulders to the net and then rotate shoulders away and serve without involving legs, this is a pull k-chain.

But for me:

1. Good servers use both push and pull. Yes, in a good serves, the legs start the k-chain by pushing up but there is a lot of shoulder rotation as well as shoulder over shoulder action. Both actions are involved and the energy flows through continuously and smoothly in a top level serve.
2. Good servers that have small knee bend still use push: Wawrinka has less knee bend that most pros but he still pushes upward with his legs. Johan Kriek and another European from the 1980s and early 1990s also used little knee bend but had big serves.

If you are going to go by the way the article presents the facts, you want to work on push k-chain. But, my view is in reality you will use both. I think the drill of not using legs and only using shoulder rotation is an excellent 1st step in serving and then you can add in leg push.
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thx, that's what i got out of it.. some folks (me?) don't use enough leg drive to start the racquet moving

there was a youtube vid that talked about wta folks not using leg drive properly... so presumed they were the "pull" type servers
 
S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
TennisCJC said:
I read the article and it sounds like a really complicated way to explain a couple of simple concepts.

Push in k-chain in the serve: my interpretation is the article is saying this is the high level serve that uses leg drive to push up into contact. attributes: more knee bend, steeper shoulder tilt angle with back shoulder down and front shoulder up, more topspin on serve and good shoulder over shoulder action.

Pull in k-chain in the serve: my interpretation is the article is saying these types of serve depend predominately on shoulder rotation. attributes: less knee bend, less shoulder tilt angle, less topspin on serve. If you were doing the drill where you open you shoulders to the net and then rotate shoulders away and serve without involving legs, this is a pull k-chain.

But for me:

1. Good servers use both push and pull. Yes, in a good serves, the legs start the k-chain by pushing up but there is a lot of shoulder rotation as well as shoulder over shoulder action. Both actions are involved and the energy flows through continuously and smoothly in a top level serve.
2. Good servers that have small knee bend still use push: Wawrinka has less knee bend that most pros but he still pushes upward with his legs. Johan Kriek and another European from the 1980s and early 1990s also used little knee bend but had big serves.

If you are going to go by the way the article presents the facts, you want to work on push k-chain. But, my view is in reality you will use both. I think the drill of not using legs and only using shoulder rotation is an excellent 1st step in serving and then you can add in leg push.
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Great analysis

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
You guys are I think hitting around and/or missing the main point. What Ben is saying is that the push from the back foot elevates the back hip and the speed of this elevation correlates with all the good stuff.
It's a definitive argument against the extreme pinpoint and leaves open to debate platform versus "footup" where the back foot is coming up behind the front. Tennis cjc: Ben actually believes that the upper arm mechanics are a prerequisite to all this. Just because Wawrinka serves well doesn't mean he has optimum mechanics.
 
F

Fedfan34

Guest
sureshs said:
I think the terms may be used in the article in a way different from what we are thinking
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Quit thinking and just do it, do it again, until you do it well. Then come up with the simplest, most concrete way of explaining what's happening.
 
dimkin

dimkin

Hall of Fame
Kafelnikov's serve has baffled me ... he seems to not involve his back leg AT ALL
He is 6'3 and leaned into it well ... but his leg use seems so ... miniscule

 
S

SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
Chas Tennis said:
I've noticed the same thing in some other servers and I'm baffled too. It seems like a one leg jump. ?

See Sampras at 1:48. He does not look much different. ??
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Sampras didn't have a motion that really lent itself to firing that right hip. When you watch him serve in slow motion, and really focus on that hip, you almost feel a little bad for it. The top half of his body was just about all "pull" in that sense. Of course, he got an absolutely tremendous vertical and horizontal push off the drive leg to compensate. (Yevgeny mostly got a little "hop" from his calf muscle. His lower body work was essentially non-existent. I think Dr. Kibler would be well justified in calling him a pull server.)

I think a "Pull Serve" in the sense the OP talks about is best described as one that has ineffective or inefficient lower body action, thus essentially depriving the server of all parts of the kinetic chain before the core rotation.

You can absolutely have different kinds of footwork that don't optimize every part of the toe-to-racquet kinetic chain, but still create a very effective one, all things considered. Not everyone can be Roddick. Most people have to pick and choose elements to include based on their own anatomy, or they wind up a grave injury risk. (Sampras's motion would kill somebody with any instability in their left knee.)

Wawrinka's an interesting case study. He gets some of the worst (least) core and shoulder rotation on tour, but gets good drive off both legs, GREAT drive action off his right hip, and shockingly good drive/lean forward into the court -- that you don't really notice until you see it from the side. At a glance, his serve looks like it belongs to Steve down the street, not a three time Grand Slam winner. But he gets enough chain elements really humming to still jam it in at 130 some of the time.
 
C

Chas Tennis

G.O.A.T.
SinjinCooper said:
............. Of course, he got an absolutely tremendous vertical and horizontal push off the drive leg to compensate. (Yevgeny mostly got a little "hop" from his calf muscle. His lower body work was essentially non-existent. I think Dr. Kibler would be well justified in calling him a pull server.)
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I have been confused by the foot work. Kafelnikov and Sampras in that video, post #24, seem to have similar leg forces based on the light touch of the right foot.

Should the oft heard 'All the power comes from the legs.' be changed to 'All the power comes from the leg' ?

Good subject for another thread.
 
S

SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
Chas Tennis said:
I have been confused by the foot work. Kafelnikov and Sampras in that video, post #24, seem to have similar leg forces based on the light touch of the right foot.

Should the oft heard 'All the power comes from the legs.' be changed to 'All the power comes from the leg' ?

Good subject for another thread.
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They DEFINITELY get similar (non) action from the right (trailing) leg. Pete gets a whole world of difference from his left, however. Whereas Yevgeny gets...to spin in the serve and get to work with his GOAT-ish backhand, I guess.

Pete's leg action is common* if you serve (A) from a wide platform, and (B) with your weight shifted WAY forward. Great way to get a launch into the court, if you have a mind to move forward. Someone like Fed gets a much stronger push from that back leg despite the superficially similar platform stance. Because he doesn't -- typically -- push his weight super far out over that front foot. (He will on occasion, since he does keep the S&V in his bag of tricks.) That's why you see such a surprisingly high jump out of Rog on his serves -- bigtime push off that back leg. Creates a lot more fire through that hip, but a lot less forward drive.

I went into a lot of detail in the recent serve footwork thread, if you'd like to chime in over there with observations. Conversations always get better when you bring your extensive biomech knowledge in.

( * - That's a huge "if," of course. It's not common at all. It might just be Pete, Rajeev Ram, and Taylor Dent who serve like this at a high level. Dunno. Not much call for it with the S&V era on hiatus. )
 
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SystemicAnomaly

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Chas Tennis said:
I have been confused by the foot work. Kafelnikov and Sampras in that video, post #24, seem to have similar leg forces based on the light touch of the right foot.

Should the oft heard 'All the power comes from the legs.' be changed to 'All the power comes from the leg' ?

Good subject for another thread.
Click to expand...

Did you take a look at the Sampras leg drive at the end of the TennisPlayer video? Looks to be both legs pushing/driving.
 
S

SinjinCooper

Hall of Fame
SystemicAnomaly said:
Did you take a look at the Sampras leg drive at the end of the TennisPlayer video? Looks to be both legs pushing/driving.
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Should be easy enough to confirm. Tons and tons of slow motion Pete Sampras serving vids around.

I'd choose to focus on:
- How far Pete's weight shifts forward before he begins the strong push upwards
- Where Pete's right foot typically is, and how much weight it is bearing when this happens, and most of all (and the crux of Dr. Ben's argument)...
- The degree to which Pete's right hip gets shoved drastically through as the keystone to his kinetic chain

I think that if you do, you'll find the answers are:
- So far forward that the rear foot has nothing to push vertically against
- Dragging along the toe or even actually in the air, and therefore practically zero, and...
- Less than any other elite server

I'll say again that I think the essence of the Push vs Pull ought to come down to this: whether or not the player uses his lower body in such a way that he generates power from it to successfully begin his/her kinetic service chain. If so, the serve's power is initiated with a push. If not, with a pull. While true, I think Dr. Ben overstated his case in certain ways (trying to shoehorn all good servers into a preconceived notion), and misstated it in certain other ways (relegating foot-forward stances to the trashbin of hip-inactivity, and with it, a great many of history's best servers). There are a great many ways the lower body can be used to initiate an excellent service motion.

All in all, worth seeing and at least thinking about, though.
 
J

JohnYandell

Hall of Fame
Not sure how you guys found that public link--was supposed to be just for Dr. K on his website, but whatever. Just consider it another free contribution to knowledge from Tennisplayer... The point he glossed over but is stressing in an upcoming article is that research by the Australian biomechanist Bruce Eliott found a high correlation between the acceleration of the back hip and racket speed--by that he means how fast it reaches it's highest point, not necessarily the height itself. The implication is the push with the back foot can be a big contributor for anyone. If you are Greg Rusedksi you served bombs without much leg push. Look at Venus--129mph--extreme foot forward. You can point to examples of great players with huge technique ranges obviously. Stan W. is another that doesn't fit Ben's model. Myself without having scientific certainty always have favored platforms--just a feeling based on watching Mac, Pete, Fed and also my experiences with players notably Salzy... When I was playing I found a moderate platform stance the greatest. I could just feel my legs work on the ball if that makes sense. Since I was one of the better 4.5 players for 15 years in Norcal and won a couple of 4.5 tournaments with 128 draws I think that probably applies well for a lot of players on this board.
 
D

Deleted member 23235

Guest
JohnYandell said:
Not sure how you guys found that public link--was supposed to be just for Dr. K on his website, but whatever. Just consider it another free contribution to knowledge from Tennisplayer... The point he glossed over but is stressing in an upcoming article is that research by the Australian biomechanist Bruce Eliott found a high correlation between the acceleration of the back hip and racket speed--by that he means how fast it reaches it's highest point, not necessarily the height itself. The implication is the push with the back foot can be a big contributor for anyone. If you are Greg Rusedksi you served bombs without much leg push. Look at Venus--129mph--extreme foot forward. You can point to examples of great players with huge technique ranges obviously. Stan W. is another that doesn't fit Ben's model. Myself without having scientific certainty always have favored platforms--just a feeling based on watching Mac, Pete, Fed and also my experiences with players notably Salzy... When I was playing I found a moderate platform stance the greatest. I could just feel my legs work on the ball if that makes sense. Since I was one of the better 4.5 players for 15 years in Norcal and won a couple of 4.5 tournaments with 128 draws I think that probably applies well for a lot of players on this board.
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it's the first link that shows up in the video section when googling "push pull serve"
maybe someone accidently linked to it, got indexed, then aftewards removed the link...
 
T

tennisreflectslife

Rookie
IMO the push has to be there from the back leg. The push is both up and into the court. But one needs to know how to use that push to accelerate the shoulder movement. And finally the pronation will add more speed. I think people should first perfect the pronation and shoulder movement. Once they got the feel of that down close to 100% then add the leg push. Otherwise people just lose balance and the serve is all over the place. Just my opinion tho.
 
Tight Lines

Tight Lines

Professional
The biomechanics of a forehand and serve are very similar. What the doctor is describing in a convoluted way (IMO) is that loading of the back foot is very important in starting the kinetic chain. Whether you call that push or pull or some other term, it's basically loading of the back foot which is important for both forehand and serve. If the push term helps you understand the loading, then I suppose it's helpful.
 
Easy Rider

Easy Rider

Professional
push serve killer : Back foot moving forward and stopping in line with front foot, both feet close to baseline ( hybrid platform stance)

what would Sagin, Ivanisevuc, Edberg, Rafter say about statement above ?!
 
SystemicAnomaly

SystemicAnomaly

Bionic Poster
Chas Tennis said:
I've noticed the same thing in some other servers and I'm baffled too. It seems like a one leg jump. ?

See Sampras at 1:48. He does not look much different. ??
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Kafelnikov appears to be merely lifting his right foot off the ground whereas Sampras seems to employs a quick push/leg drive. Difficult to see at 1:48 and in some other instances but Pete's right leg drive appears to be more evident at the end of the Kibler video on TP.net article.
 
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S

sureshs

Bionic Poster
Great video. It shows how very important things can easily be missed by most players, till someone analyses and explains it. The great players may have discovered these techniques on their own, by observation, or through a coach, but it takes someone else to bring the information to the others out there. That is the whole point of academics.
 
M

Mecir'sBeard

New User
Dr.K's conclusions confirm my own experience in switching from a Pinpoint to Platform stance (and it's always nice when people back up your own preferences and prejudices insn't it? ;))

I'll limit my comments to spin only.

For years I tried and failed to get sufficient topspin on the ball to produce a reliable 2nd serve. In hitting up on the ball I was able to get good net clearance, but (alas) I often also got service line clearance. I wouldn't say I have exactly mastered the Platform, but I can feel that clockwise rotation of the back hip away from the net when I get it right. I know that the 2nd serve will 9 times out of 10 'fall' in, instead of going long.

I always had a natural preference for Pinpoint, even though I could see the greater work from the back leg that Platform servers were getting. What motivated the switch for me wasn't in the end a technical insight. It was getting sciatica down my left leg (I'm righthanded), and so needing to get more push off from the right leg. Just couldn't manage it in a Pinpoint. It's now a mystery to me how what Dr.K describes as "foot-up" servers (Ivanisevic, Rafa, Murray?) get enough push off from the back leg, when it's basically in transit before trophy. How do you get weight back onto the back foot, when all your weight has to be on the front foot while you move the back foot up? Clearly they are getting it, but it's a bit of a marvel if you ask me.

Or maybe they arent' getting as much push off the back leg as they could? I've often wondered if that is what has held Murray back on 2nd serve. He has to concentrate so much on brushing up to make sure the ball comes down that he loses a great deal of pace. A painful comparison (for Murray fans) with Djokovic's Platform (remodelled version).

Looking back I spent a long time serving with all my weight on the front foot. I wish I had made the switch a whole lot earlier.
 
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M

Mecir'sBeard

New User
JohnYandell said:
Mecir,
You made a good move!
Click to expand...

Yes, belatedly.

Watching Mac/Sampras/Federer you knew intuitively that their motion was simpler, that less could go wrong. And yet personal preference to move the back foot had me copying elements of Edberg/Cash and latterly Murray. Not exactly bad servers! Now, after spending years with Pinpoint I a) wonder why I tried to make life harder than it has to be: one more moving part doesn't make sense, and b) am in admiration of anyone who can coordinate well enough to transfer sufficient weight back onto the moved-up back foot in the brief moments available before launching the serve.

Back when my teenage tennis obsession returned to bite me in my 30s I bought a copy of Visual Tennis. Read the chapter on the serve over and over, including the stuff about Sampras's stance that you talked about. Couldn't get it to work for me at the time, just too naturally moved my back foot. I remember then, and have just looked back to check, that you talked about McEnroe, Lendl and Edberg all having the same use of the legs and not following the 'step theory' of moving weight into the ball. I remember being a bit confused because Lendl, Edberg and indeed Navratilova and Graf all moved their back foot (though in later years Navratilova seems to have moved to a Platform). Dr K makes a distinction between foot-up (Serena) and foot-in front servers (Venus). Does a foot-up server like Edberg really get push off his back leg? I mean in my mind's eye I can see his shoulders swaying around because of the way he planted his feet (similar to Sampras, with the back foot at 45 degrees to the baseline), and thus getting his back pointing at the net, but then he moves his back foot and I can't see how much of his weight could have been shifted back onto it before launch.

Edberg's serve was a thing of great beauty, of course. But do you think evidence will now emerge that it just wasn't efficient, despite its elegance??

I think I'm right in saying that the French Federation have now adopted Platform as the officially preferred method for coaches to teach, a reversal of a decades long prefererence for Pinpoint. Whatever else you can say about them, they are usually clued up about technical matters.
 
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