I don't know about you but the real reason I play tennis because I get to wear all those colourful snazzy shoes and outfits
What do you think about NOT having children?
- Thread starter acintya
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Topspin Shot
Legend
Parenting lessons from the government will turn out almost as well as the USTA's new 1500 hour certification system.
Yes it will become a political war. There are so many private sources and free classes.
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D
Deleted member 742196
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MLRoy
Hall of Fame
That's a great metaphor, Eddy. You're right. I've never seen a dog who didn't love a walk. But, those glum humans walking their dogs aren't sad because they wish they were dead. They're sad because sometimes walking the dog is drudgery, like washing the dishes, or trimming your toenails. When I was a pre-teen, and had to walk the family dog, even though I loved that dog, I didn't enjoy walking her. There were 85 things I would have enjoyed doing more. Then, when I was older, I dog sat for my cousin for a week. I had been dogless for few years. But, for the first time ever, I enjoyed walking him. I've had my dog for almost ten years now, and I LOVE walking him. He's the best company, always up for fun. If I want to sprint up a steep hill, he's into it. If I want to walk him at 2 o'clock in the morning, through the snow, he loves it. Just walking, running, sniffing everything seems to be what he lives for, and I love that I can do that with him because it makes me feel better, too.
I'll bet you a 1000 buck$ that if you asked 10 of those "glum" dog owners if they're glad to be alive, and they were honest, at least 8 of them would say yes. And one smart asss would probably say, "the alternative is worse." Try it sometime. Ask friends, and see what they say. I think you'll be surprised how uniform the answers will be. Take care.
The reason you feel good around dogs is because they have been selfishly bred from wild wolves to satisfy the cravings of humans. As a result, they can no longer survive in their natural habitat. It is basically a form of slavery.
Humans should learn to feel good around other humans, and if that is not possible, just live with it, rather than enslaving other species to become dependent on them.
A dog does not "unconditionally love" people as some like to think. Its unconditional love was created by selective breeding and it really has no option any more. A truer test of unconditional love is with other animals like lions who will kill its master after 10 years of "love."
Pets are the refuge of people who cannot face the real world.
Steady Eddy
Legend
I agree with most of this, but I only adopt dogs from rescue shelters. I wouldn't ever breed one. But since the animal is already here, isn't it ok to give them a good home?
I used to think so, but I also feel that it increases the problem. Like volunteers who clean up beaches makes it possible for politicians not to hire staff, or politicians try to cut school budgets hoping for parents to donate supplies. If a dog can be rescued and adopted, there will be more dogs to be rescued and adopted, as every system tends to like to "grow." Even charities like more sufferers, in a perverse sense.
gn
G.O.A.T.
A young, beautiful nurse.
^^^ You unknowingly pointed out the problem right there. Most people end up saying the last sentence, especially women. Few have the courage to not say it, or say the opposite.
Red Rick
Bionic Poster
I think it's just very important to be pretty clear in communication about this.
navigator
Hall of Fame
Actually, I think the "love" has more to do with the fact that dogs will "love" whomever is providing shelter, food, water, tummy scratches, etc - that is, all the comforts of life - to them. The recipient of such love could otherwise be a serial killer - dogs aren't that picky once they're being sufficiently taken care of. Hold on a sec... humans show similar behaviors as well...
63% of US households own pets. That's an awful lot of folks who can't face the real world.
I live in the real world. With chihuahuas who are, respectively, a matador, the Easter Bunny, and Santa Claus. Are you trying to tell me that's not real?! Blaspheme!
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acintya
Legend
man i rolled 3 dices - all numbers were even
ChaelAZ
G.O.A.T.
Genious at Work
G.O.A.T.
I would love to have children with Kate Upton but she is not returning my calls. But children are a lot of work. I'd like self-sufficient laborious children, fast learners and respectful. Possibly Chinese. What could be Wong about that? The less trouble they create for me and Kate the better. I think we'll just leave the backdoor open and let them saunter around and provide for themselves, like those free range chickens you can buy in Safeway for $12.99 a piece on Friday Specials. Definitely they will be raised cage free. There are some horrible parents out there.
Azure
G.O.A.T.
Hehe its not just about treating kids bad though. To me, its more about what values you will pass on to them, how independent you will make them, as a parent. I know a couple who are still dependent on their parents. They have been married for 5 years, both don't have a stable job. Parents are still supplying ration to them. Now they even have a kid in tow. How long will the parents support them? Finances are bound to run dry.
Genious at Work
G.O.A.T.
I see what you did there. HEHE.
Genious at Work
G.O.A.T.
Jokes aside, I agree. The main function of a parent is to educate, to guide, and to deliver a child into a state of self-sufficiency. Not just economic, but moral and emotional too.
Genious at Work
G.O.A.T.
I don't want to feed into a stereotype which I think is incomplete because it oversimplifies things. Yes, at a very basic level (biologically speaking) a woman perhaps has that need suffused over her mind due to biological reasons (the woman bears and nourishes the child, biologically speaking, again.) But if you move away from that lower level stage towards higher level psychological needs and aspirations, I think the paternal instinct is just as strong on the average, and it is more complex in some ways because it lacks that lower level biological motivation, since I think the impulse to inseminate a woman has very little to do with its potential consequence (the child.)
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Steady Eddy
Legend
By bringing a human being into this world, it seems like you're playing dice with someone's existence. You are putting them in this world, without their consent. It's like being shanghaied. Your abductors might argue that you're being well treated, better than most, but that doesn't change the fact that you weren't given a choice.
You didn't get to live in the 1800s, does that bother you? Not getting to live in the 2100s isn't a problem for the unborn either. Don't play God.
You didn't get to live in the 1800s, does that bother you? Not getting to live in the 2100s isn't a problem for the unborn either. Don't play God.
Genious at Work
G.O.A.T.
In case you are serious: do you think most people would rather not have been brought into existence, or the other way around?
Steady Eddy
Legend
Oh, I am quite serious. Our culture strongly insists on life being good. News of a pregnancy is met with enthusiasm. Non existence is seen as the worst thing possible. Even prisoners doing life with no possibility of parole don't want a death sentence. But if you can get past the strangeness of the question, you'd be surprised how quickly the assumptions our culture makes fall apart. Once you start critically examining existence, it really falls apart - hard.In case you are serious: do you think most people would rather not have been brought into existence, or the other way around?
D
Deleted member 307496
Guest
It could be a real possibility I go childless. Even at the age I'm at now I don't think I'd be a good parent. Way too self serving and irrational at times to try that role in life.
That's why your 30s and even 40s can be a great learning curve.
That's why your 30s and even 40s can be a great learning curve.
max
Legend
I knew a good friend, female, who said this. She was a very good mother: she said one day she realized that she would never become perfect. ymmv.
D
Deleted member 307496
Guest
Yeah that's true. Right now I'm still in between the "he's just a kid" and fully mature grown totally rational adult phase. Late 20s. That is why I said that your 30s and 40s are a great learning curve, and as a man it's never too late to start a family.
I guess I like having fun too much right now. But not everyone lives the same life. I have good friends who are fathers, mothers, what have you today. But I haven't followed that path yet.
Something interesting to note is that my Mother was 35 when she had me. She spent her youth having fun and enjoying herself. So perhaps I'm subconsciously taking a leaf out of her book. The apple doesn't fall far...
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
As my buddy Jeff would say,
I would love to have a son. Or a daughter... and a son.
Personally I think finding a partner for life is going to be a harder part for me. Being very picky while also very self-critical and a bit shy is a nasty combination when you want to settle down. The field shrinks a lot. But once I succeed there, I don't think I will disappoint from that point forward.
As I said earlier in the thread, it's way too early for me and I am not interested in starting my own family yet. But I also want my parents, who are old already, to witness the birth of their grandchild and spend some time with him (or her... and him).
I would love to have a son. Or a daughter... and a son.
Personally I think finding a partner for life is going to be a harder part for me. Being very picky while also very self-critical and a bit shy is a nasty combination when you want to settle down. The field shrinks a lot. But once I succeed there, I don't think I will disappoint from that point forward.
As I said earlier in the thread, it's way too early for me and I am not interested in starting my own family yet. But I also want my parents, who are old already, to witness the birth of their grandchild and spend some time with him (or her... and him
).
D
Deleted member 307496
Guest
I used to be incredibly shy. I also didn't really have self confidence for a long time either. I find getting out there and talking to people works. It doesn't have to be about relationships, heck, to begin with it doesn't even have to be women you're talking to. Just try to feel more comfortable with who you are and you will go far!As my buddy Jeff would say,
I would love to have a son. Or a daughter... and a son.
Personally I think finding a partner for life is going to be a harder part for me. Being very picky while also very self-critical and a bit shy is a nasty combination when you want to settle down. The field shrinks a lot. But once I succeed there, I don't think I will disappoint from that point forward.
As I said earlier in the thread, it's way too early for me and I am not interested in starting my own family yet. But I also want my parents, who are old already, to witness the birth of their grandchild and spend some time with him (or her... and him
If I could go back and talk to my 21 year old self I'd tell him to man up and stop standing there staring, talk to 'em! That was my problem for a LONG time. I could not approach the opposite sex without making a fool of myself.
BeatlesFan
Bionic Poster
Never had one shred of maternal instinct and wisely never had kids. My husband never wanted them either. We didn't want to responsibility, the cost or anything else that comes with children. Many colleagues I know are miserable with their bratty kids, the demands of the kids and all the drama they give them. Not having children frees you up financially, emotionally and in all things. If you want to take a sudden trip, you go. If you want to go out to a movie or dinner on the spur of the moment, you go.
I find it amusing that some people in this thread with children seem to pity those of us who are child-free. When I get together with my child-free friends, it's the other way around. It's great if you have kids and enjoy them, that's fantastic. But don't scoff at those who chose never to go down that road, it's very rewarding as well.
I find it amusing that some people in this thread with children seem to pity those of us who are child-free. When I get together with my child-free friends, it's the other way around. It's great if you have kids and enjoy them, that's fantastic. But don't scoff at those who chose never to go down that road, it's very rewarding as well.
Doctor/Lawyer Red Devil
Talk Tennis Guru
I have felt comfortable in company of several friends, guys and girls, for a while now. It was tough to establish that in the beginning, as being on the receiving end of certain level of xenophobia for several years of middle school made me clueless on what a normal friendly environment actually is. I imagine that made me stagnate for a while, though I am very happy that I am going in the upward direction with each passing year. Some people just stay down.
max
Legend
As my buddy Jeff would say,
I would love to have a son. Or a daughter... and a son.
Personally I think finding a partner for life is going to be a harder part for me. Being very picky while also very self-critical and a bit shy is a nasty combination when you want to settle down. The field shrinks a lot. But once I succeed there, I don't think I will disappoint from that point forward.
As I said earlier in the thread, it's way too early for me and I am not interested in starting my own family yet. But I also want my parents, who are old already, to witness the birth of their grandchild and spend some time with him (or her... and him
I think the first step for me is just realizing that we're all human, all prone to failure, all wishing to do good and get good things, not bad things. I notice my old "standards" fell once I started appreciating human basicness.
max
Legend
I'm male and married at age 35 and wish it'd been age 26 instead. Tough to occasionally be asked if it's my granddaughter, etc., at a school event. Also, I end up going to events, hanging out with parents, and I just can't relate to their 20-something appearances and tastes---on the casual side to extreme, imho, is what I've found. I wasted my 20s just being into myself, and not realizing how broader, wider, more fun the whole family and kids thing would be. Came from a tough background, and I think perhaps today's young people, having been raised in so many broken homes, can have minimal optimism about building a family and relationships. I look at it this way: I know what NOT to do.
Turbo-87
G.O.A.T.
I like the way you put that. As Aziz Ansari said (sort of), "I don't have a baby so all of my options are still options."
max
Legend
I look at my collections of stuff---stuff I thought would bring happiness: art, fine furniture, etc., and have realized that many of these material possessions are really not much, not significant despite having pined for them. And some things I own I feel like I'm just this generation's caretaker, passing it on to someone eventually later without chip or scratch. But life is experiences, and my family experiences are priceless and near to me.
Turbo-87
G.O.A.T.
I have found that I am growing less and less fond of buying things just to have. I have tried simplifying my life a bit, more for the purpose of having resources available to my son when I pass. Being single and middle aged with a 13 year old, there are things that are more important to me and making sure he is taken care of is #1. I'm finding that I enjoy experiences much more these days and I don't take things for granted. As I see my parents get older it really puts things in perspective as far as making time for family. Just the other day I asked my son to come downstairs and watch football with me instead of playing video games. He said he doesn't like football. I joked that in 5 years when he is off to college that I'd be a lonely old man in this empty house. As I walked away, I realized ... I was likely right.
Raul_SJ
G.O.A.T.
If you are concerned about history then you need to be accurate. There was no "forcible sterilization" in by Sanjay Gandhi. Compulsory sterilization programs fell largely out of favor following the Nazis.
Granted, a few thousand poor people may have been intimidated and enticed into sterilization by unscrupulous govt officials and Doctors, but the official Indian government program was voluntary. It cannot be compared to the widescale forced **** practices.
India
India's state of emergency between 1975 and 1977 included a family planning initiative that began in April 1976 through which the government hoped to lower India's ever increasing population. This program used propaganda and monetary incentives to, some may construe, inveigle citizens to get sterilized. People who agreed to get sterilized would receive land, housing, and money or loans. Because of this program, thousands of men received vasectomies and even more women received tubal ligations, both possibly reversible. However, the program focused more on sterilizing women than men. Son of the Prime Minister at the time Indira Gandhi, Sanjay Gandhi was largely blamed for what turned out to be a failed program. A strong backlash against any initiative associated with family planning followed the highly controversial program, the backlash of which continues into the 21st century.
https://www.thoughtco.com/forced-sterilization-in-united-states-721308The Nixon administration dramatically increased Medicaid-funded sterilization of low-income Americans, primarily those of color. While these sterilizations were voluntary as a matter of policy, anecdotal evidence later suggested that they were often involuntary as a matter of practice. Patients were frequently misinformed or left uninformed regarding the nature of the procedures that they'd agreed to undergo.
Oregon performed the last legal forced sterilization in U.S. history in 1981.
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Zara
G.O.A.T.
Eh? What about us women? Do we not get to decide as well?
This is such a Men's forum. Typical!
T
Tiki-Taka
Guest
Interesting, it's been a while since my previous post in this thread. A lot of things have changed since then.
My daughter gave birth to a boy back in April. Although she had doubts at first whether she will be able to handle the enormous responsibility, especially as a young parent in today's times, she couldn't possibly be happier now. I am also over the moon whenever I get to play with my grandson. From my experience, all the worries and struggles that inevitably happen with raising children are worth it. To this day my favorite moments are not when I receive my monthly earnings, or when I successfully finish any of my projects or workouts, or when I go out with my colleagues, or when my local teams achieve worldwide success, and so on... It's when I am with my son and daughter and when I see them smile. Love towards them is an incredibly powerful feeling that cannot even be properly explained. When she was a little girl and a teenager, my daughter was at times puzzled and even annoyed by how much I cared about her because occasionally she felt I wasn't giving her enough space as a result of that. When she asked for an explanation where does all that come from, I told her "you will understand one day when you have a child of your own". And this summer when she came by one day, she told me that now she understands. Actually, as a mother she now understands it better than I ever could. From the very moment she gave birth, that baby became the most important person to her in the whole world, and that will be the case for the rest of her life.
I don't think any less of those who don't want kids, and it's none of my business obviously. This is just my story. Having children is not for everyone, if you have doubts about it, don't be forced into a decision by your partner or anyone else, try to find the answer yourself and think hard about everything that you will have to give up on, because this is the biggest decision you could make in your life, while more importantly, any new child that comes to this world deserves nothing less than full devotion from both parents.
My daughter gave birth to a boy back in April. Although she had doubts at first whether she will be able to handle the enormous responsibility, especially as a young parent in today's times, she couldn't possibly be happier now. I am also over the moon whenever I get to play with my grandson. From my experience, all the worries and struggles that inevitably happen with raising children are worth it. To this day my favorite moments are not when I receive my monthly earnings, or when I successfully finish any of my projects or workouts, or when I go out with my colleagues, or when my local teams achieve worldwide success, and so on... It's when I am with my son and daughter and when I see them smile. Love towards them is an incredibly powerful feeling that cannot even be properly explained. When she was a little girl and a teenager, my daughter was at times puzzled and even annoyed by how much I cared about her because occasionally she felt I wasn't giving her enough space as a result of that. When she asked for an explanation where does all that come from, I told her "you will understand one day when you have a child of your own". And this summer when she came by one day, she told me that now she understands. Actually, as a mother she now understands it better than I ever could. From the very moment she gave birth, that baby became the most important person to her in the whole world, and that will be the case for the rest of her life.
I don't think any less of those who don't want kids, and it's none of my business obviously. This is just my story. Having children is not for everyone, if you have doubts about it, don't be forced into a decision by your partner or anyone else, try to find the answer yourself and think hard about everything that you will have to give up on, because this is the biggest decision you could make in your life, while more importantly, any new child that comes to this world deserves nothing less than full devotion from both parents.
If everyone decides to stop having kids, what will happen? Not much really.
However, if there are some predatory peoples who continue to have children but want to spread religious fundamentalism, tyranny, fascism, racism, casteism, etc., what happens to the rest of the people who have decided not to have children? At the very least, will the women among them even be allowed that freedom not to have children?
I think one of the main reasons that people had children, apart from the convenience of being taken care of in old age in times when there were no benefits, was to produce more like them who will be automatically against those who are not like them. Till this identity issue comes to an end, survival depends on sane people having children otherwise the peoples I mentioned will prevail, and you will have to endure them till you die. And don't think even dying will be under your control because you could be locked up and kept alive.
I don't think the people not having children have thought through this. Not very long ago, people did not have basic freedoms and were oppressed for life, and it took a lot of new generations to bring about change. As we keep seeing, there are plenty of forces who are trying to ensure that people are not able to vote. Imagine what they will do when they don't have to worry about this (less and less irritating people who want to vote). Do you think they will just go away? No, they will try to enslave the smaller number of people.
However, if there are some predatory peoples who continue to have children but want to spread religious fundamentalism, tyranny, fascism, racism, casteism, etc., what happens to the rest of the people who have decided not to have children? At the very least, will the women among them even be allowed that freedom not to have children?
I think one of the main reasons that people had children, apart from the convenience of being taken care of in old age in times when there were no benefits, was to produce more like them who will be automatically against those who are not like them. Till this identity issue comes to an end, survival depends on sane people having children otherwise the peoples I mentioned will prevail, and you will have to endure them till you die. And don't think even dying will be under your control because you could be locked up and kept alive.
I don't think the people not having children have thought through this. Not very long ago, people did not have basic freedoms and were oppressed for life, and it took a lot of new generations to bring about change. As we keep seeing, there are plenty of forces who are trying to ensure that people are not able to vote. Imagine what they will do when they don't have to worry about this (less and less irritating people who want to vote). Do you think they will just go away? No, they will try to enslave the smaller number of people.
Azure
G.O.A.T.
My disinclination towards having children stems from fear. If the child is unhealthy, unintelligent, it is a liability for life. Of course a parent would love a child regardless but there is enough worry with a healthy and bright child. Besides, more the attachments, more the worries in life.
As for children being helpful in old age etc...I can only be cynical and say good luck with that. Have seen too much of abandonment, already, of old people.
As for children being helpful in old age etc...I can only be cynical and say good luck with that. Have seen too much of abandonment, already, of old people.
max
Legend
It's a great joy to teach lifelong skills. Amazing fun to teach a kid how to count to 100, how to read and how to ride a bicycle. To me, I've found that it's a great joy to teach such skills. . . and in doing so, connect more with my own life story and understand myself and my times much better than before. It's a lesson in maturity and non-selfishness, in taking a broader outlook and perspective on life, on people, on families and communities.
acintya
Legend
sorry - it wasnt ment so. but it is a mans forum - yes.
you can decide you are the baby bringer.
often when I write messages - i start like "Boys&Girls" - i forgot it in this topic. next time i will count you in.
peace
D
Deleted member 307496
Guest
Well when I was real, real young I struggled talking to people at all let alone getting into a relationship, getting married, etc. I had my first long-term relationship at 21, she left me when I was 25. I thought she was the one. Since then I've been single. I've had dates and other things since but I haven't connected with another woman in the same way. I've had to learn and teach myself that everyone is different; just find someone who you can best connect with. Don't make comparisons.
I do enjoy exploring who I am and what I like though. I may never get this opportunity again; especially when I settle down and a child becomes priority number 1. I know what it's like having older parents and how embarrassed they must've felt at times. At every school conference all the other parents were talking but they... they didn't. And it's selectively because they were at least 10-15 years older than every single other parent.
My parents were great, I was spoiled rotten. But my Mother didn't have it easy as a kid. They were different times. 1950s-1960s. They did spend the time to teach me life values and what to do and not what to do in public so I didn't ever come across as an immature brat at the "crowning" phase, so to speak.
But then again I've witnessed my Mother's passing (a huge reason for my first relationship breakdown) and it definitely shifted my view(s) for quite some time. I didn't even want to have children because I did not want to be in her position. I also felt she would never get to meet them or spend time with them so what's the point? Then I think of my Dad. He's 58 today. He isn't incredibly young anymore. So would he want to pass on himself not knowing what my future potential kids are like? I think he'd be disappointed but he's too nice a man to confront me about the issue or even inject his opinion. He knows my life is my life and how I choose to lead it is my choice.
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