Line calling issue on clay

F

FIRETennis

Professional
I played a red clay tournament this weekend (without umpires) and had two identical massive arguments with my opponents. We are not playing in the US so the USTA guidelines do not apply. I am thinking the ITF rules would apply here but there was no clear indication from the tournament director. I am starting to question my beliefs so help me out here guys...

Early in the first match, I believe first or second game, I hit a great inside out forehand with spin which the opponent calls a dead sure "Out!". To me ,it looked like it hit the back of the baseline. I asked him if he is sure, to which he answered "yes, out!". I calmly asked him to show me the mark at which point, he started looking around the baseline confused. He said he cannot find the mark, at which point I asked if I could take a look. I go to his side and I see a ball mark on the back of the line around the area of my shot. He argues that this mark is not the mark and it was from a previous point. I was sure this was my shot, but he said replay the point. Now, in my book, if the ball is in, it's my point. This has happened to me many times in the past, especially on big first serves, where the opponent doesn't the ball even and calls it out and it turns out it's in then they want to replay the point !? Am I crazy or should this be my point!?

Second identical incident happened in the quarter final where I was leading 4-3 and it was the opponent's serve at Ad-40 for him. I hit a neutral shot with spin from a good position to which the opponent calls it out on the baseline. I proceeded as I usually do, ask if he is sure. The typical dead sure "Yes!" answered followed, to which I countered by kindly asking to see the mark. Similarly, the opponent looked around confused at the baseline and said, there is no mark but he saw it out. At this point I said, if there's no mark it could have been in and on the line also as the shot felt good. He raised his voice really fast and got very aggressive. He claimed it's his side and he can call whatever he wants on his side! At this point, the tournament director walks over and asks about the situation to which the opponent starts getting really aggressive and calling profanities and says he's going home and retires from the game since he cannot play with 'cheaters' (!?). At this point I am really disturbed by the situation how a simple question to see the mark almost turned into a violence...

Any thoughts?
 
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B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
the rules are a bit weird in this respect.
typically the rule says that each opponent calls on his / her side.
but then on clay, if you have a doubt, you can ask to see the mark.
from my experience, and similar to the ATP HawkEye / Real Bounce:
1. if the mark is out -> then the call stands
2. if the mark is in / not found -> then the ball is in and the player who called out lost the point

the difference vs ATP HawkEye / Real Bounce is only that, if a linesman / umpire call out:
- and the player didn't touch the ball, then the point is awarded
- when the player touched the ball, then the point is replayed, as the wrong call hindered the game
- if I (as a player) call out, and the HawkEye / Real Bounce shows it was in, then I lose the point
 
FiReFTW

FiReFTW

Legend
Get umpires next time, otherwise everyone calls their side so... if you have a problem with that or think the opponent is a cheater get a guy to be the umpire.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
blablavla said:
the rules are a bit weird in this respect.
typically the rule says that each opponent calls on his / her side.
but then on clay, if you have a doubt, you can ask to see the mark.
from my experience, and similar to the ATP HawkEye / Real Bounce:
1. if the mark is out -> then the call stands
2. if the mark is in / not found -> then the ball is in and the player who called out lost the point

the difference vs ATP HawkEye / Real Bounce is only that, if a linesman / umpire call out:
- and the player didn't touch the ball, then the point is awarded
- when the player touched the ball, then the point is replayed, as the wrong call hindered the game
- if I (as a player) call out, and the HawkEye / Real Bounce shows it was in, then I lose the point
Click to expand...
If the mark is not found, that doesn't make the shot in.
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Doctah said:
I play on clay 75% of the time. The ball doesn't always leave a mark and there are many marks on and around the line anyway. It's your opponents call either way.
Click to expand...

it's true, your opponent can show you a different mark.
however, my experience, which mostly comes from playing with folks that have at least respect for the game, in such situations, the "out" call stands only when the mark is there.
if players are not sure which mark to take, often ends up in point being re-played.

and as someone mentioned in a different thread, if there is no umpire, perhaps it is not worth a "fight".
just like that poster, I had a few cases when I was not sure about "out" call, with the mark or without, I just told to my opponent that on his side he decides and I will accept the call. Usually such claim together with no attempts to adjudicate the point makes wonders happen.
 
S

sovertennis

Professional
OP, IMO you are dead wrong. In both of the instances you reference, it is the responsibility of the opponent to make the call. Once the call is made, you can ask if he is sure. If you says "yes" then the call should stand. He does NOT have to show you a mark (although it is customary for him to do so, it is not required). You should NOT ask if you can cross onto his side of the court to inspect the line to try to find a mark (really, can you accurately determine where your shot landed from about 80 feet away when there are surely other marks on and around that area?).

Your telling of this would indicate to me that you spent far too much energy trying to convince your opponent to change his call. You should have just moved on to the next point. My 2c.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
blablavla said:
I've yet to see and play on a clay court where the ball doesn't leave a mark.
Once a player calls out, he / she shall be able to show the mark.
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But if you can't find the mark either on or off the line, how does that overturn the call someone made with his eyesight? If you want to overturn calls on clay, you have to have a mark that shows that the ball at least touched the line. If I make a call and you dispute it and then neither of us find the mark anywhere, there's no way in hell I'm giving you the point.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
sovertennis said:
Points are not replayed when there is a disagreement regarding the line call, even in casual matches.
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I have, and I have seen others as well, offer to replay a point as a courtesy to keep matches friendly, but there is certainly no requirement to do so at all.
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
J_R_B said:
But if you can't find the mark either on or off the line, how does that overturn the call someone made with his eyesight? If you want to overturn calls on clay, you have to have a mark that shows that the ball at least touched the line. If I make a call and you dispute it and then neither of us find the mark anywhere, there's no way in hell I'm giving you the point.
Click to expand...

I know. And it depends.
When you have an opponent that wants to win no matter what - it might be tough.

However, tennis being usually on the expensive side of sports, and on the difficult side of mastering, means, at least in my case, that usually I face folks that have at least respect for the game. At times as well for the opponent.
Believe me or not, but on clay, where marks typically are there, in this setup, I have seen often that one player keeps playing when is not sure in / out.
Also if I am not sure whether the ball was in / wide, but my opponent is better positioned on the line, they tend to be correct and call "out" when their strike flies wide.

If not, and the match matters to me, I would call an umpire.
Though usually, if there is no umpire and linesman at the beginning of the match, and the place is not equipped with HawkEye and the match is not broadcasted, probably it's not worth a fight.

As for me.
When I call out, on close calls I immediately make a circle around the mark.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
blablavla said:
I know. And it depends.
When you have an opponent that wants to win no matter what - it might be tough.

However, tennis being usually on the expensive side of sports, and on the difficult side of mastering, means, at least in my case, that usually I face folks that have at least respect for the game. At times as well for the opponent.
Believe me or not, but on clay, where marks typically are there, in this setup, I have seen often that one player keeps playing when is not sure in / out.
Also if I am not sure whether the ball was in / wide, but my opponent is better positioned on the line, they tend to be correct and call "out" when their strike flies wide.

If not, and the match matters to me, I would call an umpire.
Though usually, if there is no umpire and linesman at the beginning of the match, and the place is not equipped with HawkEye and the match is not broadcasted, probably it's not worth a fight.

As for me.
When I call out, on close calls I immediately make a circle around the mark.
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Respect for the game and for your opponent means that when he makes a call and there is no definitive proof the call was wrong, you take the L and move on, not that you are entitled to overturn his call because you thought you saw it better from 80 feet away and neither of you can find the mark. If I make an out call, it's because I saw it definitively out, not close or maybe out or anything with any doubt. I acknowledge that my eyesight may not be infallible, but if you want me to overturn a call, you need to have proof that I was clearly wrong, not just that you saw it differently, because your eyesight is much more likely to be wrong from the other side of the court.
 
W

WhiteOut

Semi-Pro
blablavla said:
As for me.
When I call out, on close calls I immediately make a circle around the mark.
Click to expand...

i rarely play on clay, so in the past when i have seen players do this, i always thought they were doing it as a bit of snarkiness/gamesmanship. now that i have read this thread, i can see it the other way -- helpful in mitigating the very circumstance described by OP, which would drive me crazy after about .03 seconds.

as a hard court player, i probably play way more out balls than i should, just because i've gotten to a point where a) i don't care that much, and b) i just want to play the match and keep things drama-free...
 
K

kevrol

Hall of Fame
In both instances the opponent called it out and there was no mark or there was a disputed mark. It's the opponents call in both cases. Also not sure if there are different rules about it in different parts of the world but at least here in the US you can't cross to the opponents side to inspect a mark. OP is wrong all around in these interactions even if the balls were actually in.
 
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B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
kevrol said:
In both instances the opponent called it out and there was no mark or there was a disputed mark. It's the opponents call in both cases. Also not sure if there are different rules about it in different parts of th world but at least here in the US you can't cross to the opponents side to inspect a mark. OP is wrong all around in these interactions even if the balls were actually in.
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no, the OP is not wrong.
Technically you are not allowed to go and inspect the mark by yourself, but you can call an official, and the official occasionally might invite both players, though this is not given.
Beside, the dispute doesn't always happen at the baseline, as well call "out" wide can be disputed, in which case the mark is well visible from the net.
And yes, the rules say that every player officiates on its side of the court, but on clay you are allowed by the rules to ask your opponent to inspect the mark.

P.S.
just checked the local rules.
they actually require an umpire for matches where players satisfy certain ranking criteria.
so, if there is no umpire perhaps there is no need to escalate things.
 
F

FIRETennis

Professional
Thank you for everyone's feedback. Most of the players I play with are very fair and I can quickly figure out if a new opponent is making bad calls constantly, however this tournament was extremely competitive and I have experienced blatant bad calls in the past. This time around I decided to double check any dodgy call at critical points.

I'm pretty shocked that in the US & abroad, you are not allowed to ask for a mark and inspect it!? Wow, so everyone can just call the opponent's shots within a few inches in/on/touching behind the baseline "out" without any recourse if an umpire isn't available... ?

Tennis Canada rules state:

"TC Note: In a match played without a chair umpire on a clay court, a player can ask the opponent(s) to show the mark and then cross to the other side of the net to check the mark. Note, however, that in a match played with a chair umpire a player cannot cross the net to check the mark. (This is the responsibility of the chair umpire.) To do so constitutes a Code Violation for Unsportsmanlike Conduct."
 
K

kevrol

Hall of Fame
FIRETennis said:
Thank you for everyone's feedback. Most of the players I play with are very fair and I can quickly figure out if a new opponent is making bad calls constantly, however this tournament was extremely competitive and I have experienced blatant bad calls in the past. This time around I decided to double check any dodgy call at critical points.

I'm pretty shocked that in the US & abroad, you are not allowed to ask for a mark and inspect it!?
Tennis Canada rules state:

"In a match played without a chair umpire on a clay court, a
player can ask the opponent(s) to show the mark and then cross to
the other side of the net to check the mark. "
Click to expand...
No you can ask them to look. They can refuse but you can ask. You just can't cross over the net to look for yourself.
 
F

FIRETennis

Professional
kevrol said:
No you can ask them to look. They can refuse but you can ask. You just can't cross over the net to look for yourself.
Click to expand...

Yes, I asked - I didn't just walk over. In the second incident, at a critical point, he refused to show mark.


Trust me, there is blatant cheating in these tournaments.
Even at the junior level, it's so bad in the un-umpired matches that they had to start a 'no-let' rule since the juniors kept calling each other's first serve bombs in as 'lets'.
Did I overreact to question the call at a critical point? Maybe... but I think everyone in the same situation would do the same.
If it was an easy Sunday night games between buddies, I wouldn't even blink and move on to the next game but when it's an on-the-record tournament with entry fees and prize $, I think anyone would get ticked off if they get robbed of a point.
 
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J

J D

Semi-Pro
From the code on the USTA site:

“21. Making calls on clay courts. If any part of a ball mark touches a line on a clay court, the ball shall be called good. If only part of the mark on a court can be seen, this means that the missing part is on a line or tape. A player should take a careful second look at any point-ending placement that is close to a line on a clay court. Occasionally a ball will strike the tape, jump, and then leave a full mark behind the line. If a player hears the sound of a ball striking the tape and sees a clean spot on the tape near the mark, the player should give the point to the opponent.

A player is not required to show an opponent the mark. The opponent shall not pass the net to inspect a mark.”
 
navigator

navigator

Hall of Fame
Some folks have posted the rules, so there you have it. Often a ball doesn't leave a discernable mark if it landed near the baseline and you're in a second or third set, so the clay near the baseline is just a bunch of clumpage from one end to the other. Also, balls often bounce funny past the baseline - as if they clipped the tape - even when they're out, again because of clumpage. Same thing applies to the service line in a long doubles match if the court hasn't been swept or watered in a while. The marks in pro matches are very reliable largely because the courts are being swept after several games. This doesn't generally apply to non-pro matches.

Technically... you're not supposed to play a ball that you think is in and THEN check the mark and call it out. So, you can't play a shot as if it's in, then run up and check the mark and call it out, even if the mark suggests it's out. What you can do, however, is call close balls out... and then check the mark to make sure your out call was correct. If the mark suggests out, then it's out. If the mark suggests in, then you correct yourself and lose the point. Problem is that sometimes when the latter approach is taken and there's no clear mark (even if it was in)... the out call stands as that was the initial call.

Generally speaking it's just best not to argue line calls at all. Period. And if your opponent really believes one of his shots is in and you can't find the mark... just give him the point. There's really no point in arguing over something so meaningless.
 
Saul Goode

Saul Goode

Semi-Pro
navigator said:
Some folks have posted the rules, so there you have it. Often a ball doesn't leave a discernable mark if it landed near the baseline and you're in a second or third set, so the clay near the baseline is just a bunch of clumpage from one end to the other. Also, balls often bounce funny past the baseline - as if they clipped the tape - even when they're out, again because of clumpage. Same thing applies to the service line in a long doubles match if the court hasn't been swept or watered in a while. The marks in pro matches are very reliable largely because the courts are being swept after several games. This doesn't generally apply to non-pro matches.

Technically... you're not supposed to play a ball that you think is in and THEN check the mark and call it out. So, you can't play a shot as if it's in, then run up and check the mark and call it out, even if the mark suggests it's out. What you can do, however, is call close balls out... and then check the mark to make sure your out call was correct. If the mark suggests out, then it's out. If the mark suggests in, then you correct yourself and lose the point. Problem is that sometimes when the latter approach is taken and there's no clear mark (even if it was in)... the out call stands as that was the initial call.

Generally speaking it's just best not to argue line calls at all. Period. And if your opponent really believes one of his shots is in and you can't find the mark... just give him the point. There's really no point in arguing over something so meaningless.
Click to expand...
Wait...are you suggesting that a person should play fair and respect rules? That tennis is a game for gentlemen and gentlewomen? This may have far-reaching effects on these forums.
 
N

NoChance

Rookie
If I had to go through all that hassle over a couple of line calls, I'd stop playing. Though, I am just an old guy still playing some halfway decent tennis. Every time on court is a blessing. Tennis has been fun for me for 50 years now, and I refuse to have it be otherwise. Eventually, we all get to that point.
 
TagUrIt

TagUrIt

Hall of Fame
No one likes a bad call whether it’s on hard courts or clay, but unfortunately tennis is one of those sports that (when there’s no umpire/official) you just have to give your opponent the courtesy of making a good call. Does it always go to the correct call, of course NOT. Not everyone has the same sportsmanship or sense of fairness. Me personally if I didn’t see a ball clearly out, then it was in.

What I hate to hear anyone on the tennis courts say whether it was a serve or shot“I think it was out”. That absolutely drives me crazy.
 
F

FIRETennis

Professional
Sort of answering to myself here after some deliberation and thoughts from the community....

Aside from honest mistakes and blatant cheating, my other theory on bad calls is that some players do not quite understand topspin and how the arc of the ball changes.
With high topspin, the ball can dip into the court last split second, almost vertically, even if the flight path would appear that it would go out.
Players that play opponents with flat shots, slices or lower topspin rates, would not be used to this effect. Some players even grab the ball in the air thinking it will go out :oops:


TennisShotCompare.png

Reference
 
Z

zipplock

Hall of Fame
Play mostly clay here. If it's called out you need to show me the mark. I'll offer you the same courtesy. If there's no mark the shot was in. If you want to argue/can't/won't show me the mark, no problem. I'm calling a judge for the rest of the match.

It's usually crappy players that call tight lines. Generally, the better the player, the more generous the call. I was taught that if you have to think about the call, it's too close and call it good, move on to the next point.

Not on clay. But I played a league match where the captain of the other team was making bad calls all night. We lost in a tie break.
Played him again a month later. I called for a line judge BEFORE the first point. What do you know, not a single bad call and we won in straights. Sometimes people just suck.
 
fundrazer

fundrazer

G.O.A.T.
navigator said:
I don't think anyone is saying that. What most folks are saying - I think - is that if it's close and you're not sure it's out AND there's no mark... it's good.
Click to expand...

This should be how it goes, but some people get confused sometimes.

A few weeks back I hit a backhand that seemed good to me (looked to be on or inside baseline). Opponent lets it go. Then asks if we can replay the point because he thought the ball was out and was gonna call it but didn't. In my head I'm thinking this sounds like you THOUGHT the ball was going out, but it was actually in. He asked how I saw it and I tell him from here it looked good to me but I can't see.

Ended up replaying the point, but if I was in a grumpier mood I would have claimed it.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
navigator said:
I don't think anyone is saying that. What most folks are saying - I think - is that if it's close and you're not sure it's out AND there's no mark... it's good.
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No, that's exactly what zipplock said: "Play mostly clay here. If it's called out you need to show me the mark." That means if someone calls a shot out that doesn't leave a mark either way, he's obliged to change it. That's 100% wrong, and if you try to steal points using the "no mark at all = in" argument, you are the a-hole.
 
M

Matthew ATX

Semi-Pro
I've played a fair amount on clay and at least on the clay here, the ball definitely doesn't always leave a mark. So no, just because I can't find a mark doesn't mean I'm conceding my call.
 
Z

zipplock

Hall of Fame
J_R_B said:
No, that's exactly what zipplock said: "Play mostly clay here. If it's called out you need to show me the mark." That means if someone calls a shot out that doesn't leave a mark either way, he's obliged to change it. That's 100% wrong, and if you try to steal points using the "no mark at all = in" argument, you are the a-hole.
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Well, I guess I'm an a-hole then. I've not been in a position where there was no mark on a clay court. I'd love to see an image of a ball scooting along, hitting the dirt and NOT moving any dirt at all, nothing. Maybe I play on crappy courts. The only time I haven't seen a mark is when it's a clean tape shot, and that's rare, and you know it was good with no mark because the bounce off the tape is strange. There's almost always some mark just before or after the tape. If you're 100% sure it was out then show me where it hit. If you're not 100% then you should give the benefit of the doubt and give the point. I call a generous line and often play out balls because they are close enough that I wouldn't want to call it out. If you won't give the benefit of the doubt AND you won't show me a mark, then I'm calling for a line judge. I won't cheat you, but I also won't let you cheat me.
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Doctah said:
I disagree with "if there is no mark the shot was in". the ball doesn't always leave a distinctive mark.
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the rules say clearly: the ball is in play until is called out.
to call the ball out you'd better have a mark, otherwise according to the rules I can claim that the ball is in play, so as you stopped / hindered the rally, you lose the point.
 
C

Chalkdust

Professional
I'm now playing mostly on clay courts after many years of playing exclusively on hard courts. So there is a bit of adjustment for me with line calling now that there is potentially a mark that can be checked. I still call lines the way I always have - if I'm sure it's out, I call it out, otherwise I play it. But now after I make an out call that I think was close, I look for the mark. If I can find the mark and I was wrong (ball touched the line), I correct myself and concede the point. If I can't find the mark, I stand by my original out call. The courts get pretty scuffed after a while and not every mark is going to be easily distinguishable.

About wanting to check the mark after an opponents call: I don't see the point. If you think your opponent is cheating and the mark is going to show the ball in, then what's to stop the opponent just showing another nearby mark (that was really out)? At the end of the day it's your opponents call and there's nothing to be done about it short of asking for an umpire / line judge. So I think asking to see the mark just causes needless animosity and slows the game down.
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Matthew ATX said:
Lol. No. That's not how it works.
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@Matthew ATX please enlighten how it works on clay.
let's say we are playing without umpire.
it's beginning of the match, so the court is fresh -> not many other marks you could choose to just show any mark.
you call out -> I ask you to show the mark, but there is no mark.
So I say point is mine, you say that point is yours.
We call the tournament official.

please enlighten me how the official will be making the judgement.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
blablavla said:
@Matthew ATX please enlighten how it works on clay.
let's say we are playing without umpire.
it's beginning of the match, so the court is fresh -> not many other marks you could choose to just show any mark.
you call out -> I ask you to show the mark, but there is no mark.
So I say point is mine, you say that point is yours.
We call the tournament official.

please enlighten me how the official will be making the judgement.
Click to expand...
So this "I have to change my call even if you can't find a mark either" nonsense only applies to the first point? That's a little better I guess. This how it works. If neither player can find a mark (inside, on, or outside the line), then the call stands.
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
J_R_B said:
So this "I have to change my call even if you can't find a mark either" nonsense only applies to the first point? That's a little better I guess. This how it works. If neither player can find a mark (inside, on, or outside the line), then the call stands.
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nope, that's not how it works.

let's try once again.
the court is fresh, I ask you to show me the mark, you can't and I ask the official of the tournament to approach and rule this situation.

please only answers based on rules and facts. Remember that we are talking about a tournament situation.
leave the "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" theory for some other occasion.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
blablavla said:
nope, that's not how it works.

let's try once again.
the court is fresh, I ask you to show me the mark, you can't and I ask the official of the tournament to approach and rule this situation.

please only answers based on rules and facts. Remember that we are talking about a tournament situation.
leave the "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" theory for some other occasion.
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If the tournament official can't see a mark anywhere (in, on, or out), they can't overturn a call. Period. No matter how much you whine about it. If you start calling a tournament official about line calls on the first point of the match, you'll be identified as a huge annoyance and shut down very quickly.

At least this nonsense only applies when the court is fresh and not the whole match, though.
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
J_R_B said:
If the tournament official can't see a mark anywhere (in, on, or out), they can't overturn a call. Period. No matter how much you whine about it. If you start calling a tournament official about line calls on the first point of the match, you'll be identified as a huge annoyance and shut down very quickly.

At least this nonsense only applies when the court is fresh and not the whole match, though.
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have you played tournaments on clay?

do you know that the rules clearly say that the ball is in play until proven otherwise?
so if you can't show me a mark that is out, the ball is in play and the point is mine as long as we are discussing clay.
 
J

J_R_B

Hall of Fame
blablavla said:
have you played tournaments on clay?

do you know that the rules clearly say that the ball is in play until proven otherwise?
so if you can't show me a mark that is out, the ball is in play and the point is mine as long as we are discussing clay.
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Incorrect. This is what the rules say in The Code:
21. Making calls on clay courts. If any part of a ball mark touches a line on a clay court, the ball shall be called good. If only part of the mark on a court can be seen, this means that the missing part is on a line or tape. A player should take a careful second look at any point-ending placement that is close to a line on a clay court. Occasionally a ball will strike the tape, jump, and then leave a full mark behind the line. If a player hears the sound of a ball striking the tape and sees a clean spot on the tape near the mark, the player should give the point to the opponent. A player is not required to show an opponent the mark. The opponent shall not pass the net to inspect a mark.
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There is nothing in the rules about overturning calls if there is no mark at all. Furthermore, The Code says that you cannot inspect marks on my side and I am not obliged to show you one. Those are the rules.
 
D

Doctah

New User
blablavla said:
have you played tournaments on clay?

do you know that the rules clearly say that the ball is in play until proven otherwise?
so if you can't show me a mark that is out, the ball is in play and the point is mine as long as we are discussing clay.
Click to expand...

100% not true
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
J_R_B said:
There is nothing in the rules about overturning calls if there is no mark at all. Furthermore, The Code says that you cannot inspect marks on my side and I am not obliged to show you one. Those are the rules.
Click to expand...

I never said that the opponent is allowed to inspect the mark.

On clay, the opponent is allowed to ask you to show the mark.
When it comes to the baseline, the rule makes no practical meaning, yet it is there.

But for the sidelines, I can see very well how close it is or how far away it is.

And if I ask you to show me the mark and you can't, and we don't agree on a solution and this is why the umpire comes...
well, I know what happens next.
You can keep your own opinion, while I keep mine.
 
B

blablavla

G.O.A.T.
Doctah said:
100% not true
Click to expand...

This is quote from ITF Tennis rules.

11. BALL IN PLAY
Unless a fault or a let is called, the ball is in play from the moment the server hits the ball, and remains in play until the point is decided.

While US might have own regulations, most of the world accepts the ITF Tennis rules.
Furthermore, Junior ITF tournaments, Futures, Challengers, are played based on ITF rules.
Even ATP events apply the ITF rules, unless some special provision is set.
 
M

mikej

Hall of Fame
J_R_B said:
Incorrect. This is what the rules say in The Code:

There is nothing in the rules about overturning calls if there is no mark at all. Furthermore, The Code says that you cannot inspect marks on my side and I am not obliged to show you one. Those are the rules.
Click to expand...

However, in the same paragraph it says “A player should take a careful second look at any point-ending placement that is close to a line on a clay court.” Somewhat contradictory statements, so not surprised this is often a point of controversy on clay.

FWIW, my two cents: if I hit a shot on a well-swept clay court that’s not somewhere in the middle of foot traffic at the baseline where marks are a bit tougher to find (ie a sideline shot or a serve), it’s very close but my opponent ends the point with an out call, and I politely ask my opponent to check the ball mark - if he refuses, he may be within his rights (per one of the two contradictory statements in the rules), but things are going to become uncomfortable for him from then on, no longer a gentleman’s match where we’re doing right by eachother - perhaps we no longer agree on the score in the game being played and must start the game over, and yes i’ve done this in a tournament match where the mark was clearly in but my opponent refused to look at it or suggest an alternative mark :)

I routinely circle marks within an inch or so of the line, and while I don’t expect my opponent to do the same, a refusal to show one or two reasonably requested marks over the course of a match is an admission of cheating and gloves come off
 
Z

zipplock

Hall of Fame
mikej said:
However, in the same paragraph it says “A player should take a careful second look at any point-ending placement that is close to a line on a clay court.” Somewhat contradictory statements, so not surprised this is often a point of controversy on clay.

FWIW, my two cents: if I hit a shot on a well-swept clay court that’s not somewhere in the middle of foot traffic at the baseline where marks are a bit tougher to find (ie a sideline shot or a serve), it’s very close but my opponent ends the point with an out call, and I politely ask my opponent to check the ball mark - if he refuses, he may be within his rights (per one of the two contradictory statements in the rules), but things are going to become uncomfortable for him from then on, no longer a gentleman’s match where we’re doing right by eachother - perhaps we no longer agree on the score in the game being played and must start the game over, and yes i’ve done this in a tournament match where the mark was clearly in but my opponent refused to look at it or suggest an alternative mark :)

I routinely circle marks within an inch or so of the line, and while I don’t expect my opponent to do the same, a refusal to show one or two reasonably requested marks over the course of a match is an admission of cheating and gloves come off
Click to expand...
This!!!!! I can't force you to show me the mark and I can't force you oblige me, but if I think you're making poor calls (not willing to show the mark for example), then I'm calling an umpire for the rest of the match and you're going to miraculously start making better calls or get overturned by the umpire. I've experienced this first hand multiple times and the result has always been the same.
 
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