In or Out?

Thanks for the responses everyone!

Looks out to me.

Can’t clearly see it out from that video. If the video were the only thing available, I would have to call it in. You undoubtedly had a better look on your side of the court. Anyway, tough calls are part of the sport and your opponent should deal with it.

time_fly said:

Can’t clearly see it out from that video. If the video were the only thing available, I would have to call it in. You undoubtedly had a better look on your side of the court. Anyway, tough calls are part of the sport and your opponent should deal with it.

Click to expand...

I was thinking that the perspective of that shot was akin to fast serves that land slightly past the service line where the server sees that its out but its a tough call to make from the baseline for the returner mid return. But yes, I felt I had a very good look at it. It was close, but I was confident in the call at the time.

The video doesn’t really add much to the discussion. It’s not possible to tell with any certainty where it landed.

If your opponent questions a call you can only apologetically stand your ground and say that is how you saw it. If you are making fair calls throughout the match they will usually accept it with reasonable grace, even if they disagree.

Were you getting the rub of the green on most close calls in the match up until that point?

Cashman said:

The video doesn’t really add much to the discussion. It’s not possible to tell with any certainty where it landed.

If your opponent questions a call you can only apologetically stand your ground and say that is how you saw it. If you are making fair calls throughout the match they will usually accept it with reasonable grace, even if they disagree.

Were you getting the rub of the green on most close calls in the match up until that point?

Click to expand...

Actually this happened mid-way through the first set, I think I was up 3-2 on serve at the time. Things were fine up until then unless I'm misremembering something. I was surprised by the reaction though which is why I wanted to confirm if I had made the right call. I do stand by it as of now though, close but out.

100% OUT, but the correct answer is N

FlamingCheeto said:

100% OUT, but the correct answer is N

Click to expand...

A for effort lol

Wesley J said:

I played in a match today and unfortunately there was a line call I made that dampened the mood of the remainder of the match. Luckily we recorded the match so I was able to look back at it. However, the video doesn't change my mind and I stand by the call but want to hear other opinions as if there is a consensus that the ball was "in", I'd like to apologize to my opponent.

From my perspective, as I was running to the ball I saw it clearly land in the blue a few centimeters out. I wasn't stretched for the ball and had a clear look at it since it was a down the line shot.

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter what the rest of us say because only you were there and only you have to make the call. Just call 'em like you see 'em and give the benefit of the doubt to your opponent.

Note that your opponent has a better view of the ball because A) he's relatively static while you are moving; and B) his line of sight is parallel to the ball's trajectory and the line whereas you're moving at an angle. The compensating factor is that you're closer.

Also keep in mind Vic Braden's research about how the ball can roll up to 2" after landing and that our visual system is not granular enough to catch all of that. You may see where the ball landed but you might also see after it has rolled a bit. This makes way more of a difference when the ball passes a line parallel to you, like the BL. It's less of a factor when the line is perpendicular.

However, after reading that research, I have become more generous with my line calls because I can't know exactly when I saw the ball land.

I was once in your opponent's position and I had just passed the guy at net DTL. I had the better view and he deferred to me to make the call; I called it out because that's what I saw.

FWIW, I saw the ball in. But the net strap is partially blocking the landing point, it's far away, and film resolution and speed is too low to make an accurate call. And I have the luxury of single-stepping through the video multiple times. You don't have that luxury.

BTW: it shouldn't have dampened the mood of the match unless he was mad about previous calls you had made. It's just one call and you're both presumably doing your best to make accurate calls. No one is perfect.

S&V-not_dead_yet said:

It doesn't matter what the rest of us say because only you were there and only you have to make the call. Just call 'em like you see 'em and give the benefit of the doubt to your opponent.

Note that your opponent has a better view of the ball because A) he's relatively static while you are moving; and B) his line of sight is parallel to the ball's trajectory and the line whereas you're moving at an angle. The compensating factor is that you're closer.

Also keep in mind Vic Braden's research about how the ball can roll up to 2" after landing and that our visual system is not granular enough to catch all of that. You may see where the ball landed but you might also see after it has rolled a bit. This makes way more of a difference when the ball passes a line parallel to you, like the BL. It's less of a factor when the line is perpendicular.

FWIW, I saw the ball in. But the net strap is partially blocking the landing point, it's far away, and film resolution and speed is too low to make an accurate call. And I have the luxury of single-stepping through the video multiple times. You don't have that luxury.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't the net strap be blocking his POV then? Usually I do give the benefit of the doubt or at least ask what they thought. On this one I was certain enough to where I didn't have doubt when I made the call.

@S&V-not_dead_yet how far in did you see it?

Wesley J said:

Wouldn't the net strap be blocking his POV then? Usually I do give the benefit of the doubt or at least ask what they thought. On this one I was certain enough to where I didn't have doubt when I made the call.

Click to expand...

The camera view is much higher than your opponent's. If it is blocking me from seeing, then he should have an unobstructed view [minus the net].

In any case, it's your call. The only nit I have is your phrase "certain enough": you're either certain or you're not. "Certain enough" implies something less than 100% to me like "good enough" doesn't necessarily mean "good" but just that it's sufficient for the situation.

Wesley J said:

@S&V-not_dead_yet how far in did you see it?

Click to expand...

Barely. Less than a ball width. By a small enough amount that it's within my margin of error. And again, the video is not of high enough quality to be definitive.

When I have to get down to this level of analysis, I should just call it in.

But you saw it differently, which is fine. Two people can observe the same thing and see different outcomes.

Wesley J said:

@S&V-not_dead_yet how far in did you see it?

Click to expand...

In your favor, you called it immediately rather than stopping, looking at the area, getting down on your hands and knees to look for fuzz, etc.

S&V-not_dead_yet said:

The camera view is much higher than your opponent's. If it is blocking me from seeing, then he should have an unobstructed view [minus the net].

In any case, it's your call. The only nit I have is your phrase "certain enough": you're either certain or you're not. "Certain enough" implies something less than 100% to me like "good enough" doesn't necessarily mean "good" but just that it's sufficient for the situation.

Click to expand...

You're right. I'm dancing around the wording because I feel for the situation and am trying to look at it from both sides with the perspective that either of us could be wrong. When I made the call in the match I was 100% certain that I saw it out no debating.

S&V-not_dead_yet said:

In your favor, you called it immediately rather than stopping, looking at the area, getting down on your hands and knees to look for fuzz, etc.

Click to expand...

Also had a play on the ball, it wasn't a winner or anything

Wesley J said:

You're right. I'm dancing around the wording because I feel for the situation and am trying to look at it from both sides with the perspective that either of us could be wrong. When I made the call in the match I was 100% certain that I saw it out no debating.

Click to expand...

Then that's all anyone [including your opponent] can ask for.

Bad video as the impact aligns with the net. Looks awfully close Though.

I had two similar situations this weekend but fortunately I play on clay so there’s evidence.

First instance, my opponent calls my ball out but by the bounce I had to question him. He looks at the mark and confirms out. Later after side change I looked at the mark and it was just touching the line. So I chided him about it in a non threatening ball busting way.

Second instance was my opponent hitting near the line which my vision told me was out but when I looked at the line I couldn’t see a mark. So I asked my opponent what he saw. He said it was in and I gave him the point.

Playing on clay is probably the best tool to help you realize that sometimes the eyes play tricks and you learn to give bigger margins on some shots and smaller margins on others.

i find when I’m uncertain on a serve it’s almost always long and when I’m uncertain on a sideline shot to my FH it’s almost always in. So that changes how much space I need to see to make a call.

Dartagnan64 said:

i find when I’m uncertain on a serve it’s almost always long and when I’m uncertain on a sideline shot to my FH it’s almost always in. So that changes how much space I need to see to make a call.

Click to expand...

Do you call those serves out or play them?

People have covered the main points, the main one being you can't tell on the video because of frame rate and how the net strap covers where the ball lands.

All I have to add is reiterating that your opponent had the better view since he was stationary right in line with the ball, not sprinting sideways at it from behind. But also his reaction is extremely overdone. If it was truly the first close call of the match then he comes off as a bit of a drama queen who wasn't necessarily trying to call it fairly but instead was seeing what he wanted to see.

Wesley J said:

Do you call those serves out or play them?

Click to expand...

On hard courts I play them. On clay courts I usually call them out and confirm with the mark. Never been wrong yet. I’ve played plenty of out serves that I was sure were in.

I get more crap from my opponents for playing out first serves than I ever get for calling one too close.

Video doesn't help. If you didn't have to think if it was in or out, then the call it out. If you had to think, even for a moment, then you should have called it in.

If that was the first ball he questioned, screw him. He came at you pretty hard. That's not the way one should question a call, particularly the first one. I think he was trying to bully you into the call or future calls. If you're doing your best to call balls accurately, that is all you can ask of yourself. You can't ask yourself to be perfect. Whatever you do, don't increase your margin on calls. Call them as you see them. Plus, his forehand was too ugly to actually go in.

I think it was just a bad day. We play all the time and this wasn't a league or anything. That's why I was questioning myself because usually we're fine and I'd be disappointed if I was doing him dirty.

Wesley J said:

I think it was just a bad day. We play all the time and this wasn't a league or anything. That's why I was questioning myself because usually we're fine.

Click to expand...

That explains a lot actually. I've had some of my worst squabbles with some of my best friends, all the more reason to put this one to rest. Against someone you don't know, you might feel the need to prove your trustworthiness. With friends, you can feel confident he already knows it.

Wesley J said:

Thanks for the responses everyone!

Click to expand...

Jan-Michael Gambill

see no vid, but if u hesitate, then its your opponents pt

Out. The call is always out.

I can’t tell from the video, but when you are looking at a sideline from the side, you are liable to experience a visual perspective error called Parallax Error. It makes balls that land just inside the line look just out while you can call balls that land on the line accurately. Google Parallax error and you will see what I mean. If your opponent is looking vertically along the sideline, he has a better view even if he is further away. If he is very convinced that the ball was in and he is your buddy that you trust, then the ball was likely in and you made a mistake due to a parallax error. In this kind of situation when I am looking sideways and my opponent is convinced the ball near a sideline is good while they were looking with a vertical perspective at the sideline, I have been willing to change my call even if I saw the ball just out as I’m afraid I might have experienced parallax error.

This is different from the opponent who sees every close ball they hit in and every close ball that you hit out - that’s just cheating.