Every type of serve requires swinging upward on the ball to a different degree. Unless you are 7 ft tall or if you do not mind having only a 3 inch window above the net to hit through.
Top spin on the ball provides consistency, conrol, makes it more difficult to track for the receiving player, more pace and action after the bounce.
I gotta disagree with that.. I think the topspin serve is two-parts:In the serve, your target is the ball, not the service box. Your racquet should be aimed up at the ball, not forward.
A good drill to get this is as follows. (no racquet needed). Get two tennis balls, one to toss like you regularly do, and the other to throw at the tossed ball.
Go thru your service motion and try to hit the ball that you just tossed with the other ball. This is what your swing should look like. (Throwing the racquet up at the tossed ball).
What actually happens when you serve though is that the racquet when swung up, naturally snaps down causing the ball to go into the service box.
(HOpe I explained this in a manner you understand. )
Good luck.
i think what you said here is right, even the last point, but where i don't agree is the original posters was not concerned about forward vs upward... he was essentially taking for granted the "forward" part and was wondering what to do about the vertical component? ... should you focus on down or up?Imagine hittiing a topspin drive. Are you hittiing upwardward or forward?
Don't try to answer, because it is a poorly worded question that assumes a one-or-the-other type answer.
Same thing in the original question to this thread.
Just as in a topspin drive where your main force is directed forward and some of the force is angled upward, as follow-through, to create spin-- something similar happens in most serves. Most of the momentum is directed "forward" while the follow-through angles off at an "upward" angle to impart some kind of spin (depending on the exact angle).
To imagine all of the force directed "up" would be an over-simplification.
i second the other guy that didn't agree... this i definitely not true. the "snap" or more precisely pronation, imparts a purely forward and upward motion to the racquet. never think down on a serve.What actually happens when you serve though is that the racquet when swung up, naturally snaps down causing the ball to go into the service box.
this i definitely not true.
2) the angle of the racquet face is forward and slightly down,
yes, to all. =) literally...Everyone says they are aiming up. But are they? (for non-kick serves).
What about the infamous "wrist snap"? Would that still be considered aiming up?
If the serve is similar to an overhead, do you aim upwards in overhead smashes?
I can understand a volleyball floater serve being aimed upwards. Somehow I could never visualize it in tennis. I need to study this more.
your right a 5'5" person can get a flat serve in the court without any of my advice, but i guarantee he could get a bigger faster one in the court if he aims up and gets the right spin on it. if you get a chance, watch the pros from court level. you will quickly see even their huge "flat" server have a LOT of topspin.Yes it is true. As for the rest of your post, you don't need to put any topspin to get the ball into the court. And no, you don't have to be 9 feet tall either. A 5'5'' person could put a flat serve (no spin) into the court, so get your facts straight.
a few things (nice pic by the way)...Yes it is true. As for the rest of your post, you don't need to put any topspin to get the ball into the court. And no, you don't have to be 9 feet tall either. A 5'5'' person could put a flat serve (no spin) into the court, so get your facts straight. And weher do I state to "think down"? I have said to swing up.
Here is a serve that went into the service box at over 100+. Please show me where the racquet face is facing down?
your right a 5'5" person can get a flat serve in the court without any of my advice, but i guarantee he could get a bigger faster one in the court if he aims up and gets the right spin on it. if you get a chance, watch the pros from court level. you will quickly see even their huge "flat" server have a LOT of topspin.
I'm with you, sureshs...I actually visualize the tennis first serve as being similar to the spike serve in volleyball. I don't think about hitting up, down or sideways because my arm swing was pretty much established from years of throwing a baseball, softball etc. I think more about accelerating the racquet in a trajectory that is parallel to the ground just before the point of contact.Everyone says they are aiming up. But are they? (for non-kick serves).
What about the infamous "wrist snap"? Would that still be considered aiming up?
If the serve is similar to an overhead, do you aim upwards in overhead smashes?
I can understand a volleyball floater serve being aimed upwards. Somehow I could never visualize it in tennis. I need to study this more.
i really don't know what you are trying to prove. none of those pictures disproves anything i said... i said slightly downward. your pic in this thread, and "some" of the ones you link confirm that (most are inconclusive b/c of blur... post #77 is the best). go find some real pictures, like a good 1000 fps video of some touring pros and watch.I have seen pros up close and taken pictures of them up close. Here is a thread where I attended the United States Clay Court Championships for 45's. I took over 600 pictures. In every picture where I captured the contact point, not one person has the racquet face facing down at contact. Not one.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=161872
And again, I have repeatedly stated to swing up. Please read what I have posted. By the way, the more spin put on the ball, the slower it will go, so you are wrong when you state one could "get a bigger faster one in the court if he aims up and gets the right spin on it".
i really don't know what you are trying to prove.
as for the topspin issue, in a sense you are right... but not really...
you're right... we are kind of on the same page: swing up. guess we just disagree about the details.I didn't link that thread to show you pics of guys serving and making contact, I posted it so you are aware I have seen pros up close and taken photos of them as well. And the photo in this thread is at contact, not before.
Sorry, but I am right. It is harder to get more pace on a ball with spin, than without.
Furthermore, one has to impart way more energy, and have a much faster swing speed into a topsin serve going 100 mph, than a flat serve going 100mph.
Lastly, like I said>>> throughout this thread I have been stating to swing up (same as you), so go back and read, before you state I am incorrect.
surprised you are arguing this point... we all can see the photo.And the photo in this thread is at contact, not before.
oops... this was suppose to be:point to note and NEVER forget: at contact on a serve, the racquet should have purely horizontal motions (i.e. upward/sideways) and forward motion. that covers them all: flat, slice, kick, whatever
point to note and NEVER forget: at contact on a serve, the racquet should have purely horizontal motions (i.e. forward/sideways) and upward motion. that covers them all: flat, slice, kick, whatever
I'm with you, sureshs...I actually visualize the tennis first serve as being similar to the spike serve in volleyball. I don't think about hitting up, down or sideways because my arm swing was pretty much established from years of throwing a baseball, softball etc. I think more about accelerating the racquet in a trajectory that is parallel to the ground just before the point of contact.
You can trip yourself up trying to break down everything into it's smallest component and over analyzing the problem. The problem is overanalysis.
Morten...take the racquet out of your hand and put in it's place a handball (are you European?) or small playground ball that you can grip comfortably with one hand. Practice throwing that for awhile until you develop a good throwing motion. It should take you about ten days to two weeks...or you can overthink the problem and never figure out the service swing.
i actually sounds like you might be doing the same as what we all mean by "hit up". it's just that some of our minds operate differently, and maybe you (and others) are ones that just take slightly different mental cues to get your body to do the right thing... make sense? ... maybe??? =)Shhhhhhhhhhh . . . Don't let the secret out!
Seriously, I had read on these boards that you should hit up up up on serves. It totally wasn't working for me. Lots of serves flying long or having nothing on them. Finally, I asked my pro during a lesson.
He said you should get on top of the ball and hit down for flat and slice, with topspin being a different species altogether. My serve improved in consistency and pace just in the course of that one lesson, and the improvement has stuck. If my serve goes off in a match, the first thing I do is tell myself to slow down and be more careful with the toss. The second thing I tell myself is to hit down on the ball.
And as a matter of physics, I imagine that if one hits down on a tennis ball, the ball will land on one's big toe.
Finally, I asked my pro during a lesson.
He said you should get on top of the ball and hit down for flat and slice, with topspin being a different species altogether.
I sort of aim down, my serve is not too good..... and i cant get a kick either...I mean as you hit the ball.
In every picture where I captured the contact point, not one person has the racquet face facing down at contact. Not one.
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=161872
YOu are swinging up, but the ball goes into the opposing service box and not the sky because you don't leave the arm extended out straight towards the opponents service box. You do extend the arm up into contact but the forearm and wrist pronate as a consequence of the service motion and grip.
What is "you"? In my definition, it is the closest part of my body to the racquet, i.e., my palm and wrist. If it pronates, that means that "I" am hitting down, not up (for non-kick serves). What my upper arm is doing, or my legs are doing, etc are very important, but what matters to the ball is the perpendicular direction to the string plane at impact. The ball does not know the history of what my arm was doing before.
This thread is confusing ...
It seems to me that you DO swing up at the ball ... initially ... but at contact (on a flat serve) the racquet face would have to be either vertical or angled very slight downward.
Most flat serves I've seen (including mine) have some spin, but certainly not enough to keep the ball in the box if it doesn't have the correct trajectory. I don't see how it could possibly achieve that trajectory if the racquet face was pointing upward.
I'm no expert ... but I see it as an upward swing path initially, but by contact with the ball the path has reached it's vertical peak and has (just barely) started to travel downward.
for those wondering about the trajectory of the serve to the service box, note that the best "angle" to the service box is from the doubles alley over the center of the net INTO the far corner of the service box. when serving from this point, to get a straight shot to the court you must hit the ball at over 8 ft above the ground. all other places on the court, require contact points even higher than that. sooo... unless you are over 6ft tall and always serving from the doubles alley to the far corner of the service box it is not likely that you can rely only on gravity.... you need spin, unless you serve really slow then gravity will do the job.This thread is confusing ...
It seems to me that you DO swing up at the ball ... initially ... but at contact (on a flat serve) the racquet face would have to be either vertical or angled very slight downward.
Most flat serves I've seen (including mine) have some spin, but certainly not enough to keep the ball in the box if it doesn't have the correct trajectory. I don't see how it could possibly achieve that trajectory if the racquet face was pointing upward.
I'm no expert ... but I see it as an upward swing path initially, but by contact with the ball the path has reached it's vertical peak and has (just barely) started to travel downward.
if you are standing flat, and you hold up your hand and pronate... yes, the racquet goes down. but when you serve, you are far below the ball, knees bent, and you go up to the ball. there is so much upward motion at the point of contact, the pronation combines with the extention of your forearm all results in a net upward velocity of the racquet head.What is "you"? In my definition, it is the closest part of my body to the racquet, i.e., my palm and wrist. If it pronates, that means that "I" am hitting down, not up (for non-kick serves). What my upper arm is doing, or my legs are doing, etc are very important, but what matters to the ball is the perpendicular direction to the string plane at impact. The ball does not know the history of what my arm was doing before.
for those wondering about the trajectory of the serve to the service box, note that the best "angle" to the service box is from the doubles alley over the center of the net INTO the far corner of the service box. when serving from this point, to get a straight shot to the court you must hit the ball at over 8 ft above the ground. all other places on the court, require contact points even higher than that. sooo... unless you are over 6ft tall and always serving from the doubles alley to the far corner of the service box it is not likely that you can rely only on gravity.... you need spin, unless you serve really slow then gravity will do the job.
if you really, have doubt about the benefit of spin on a flat serve, i again reference the link a few of my posts back. it gives stats on the spin from sampras and phillipoussis's 120mph+ serves. they both have 2000-25000 rpm of spin.
so true... i'm looking for some good pics and videos, so this issue can be put to rest. please post if you find something conclusive...It may feel like you are hitting down on your serve, but I can assure you, you aren't (If you are serving with a continental grip or eastern bh with good form.)
but you are correct the plane of the racquet is still slightly downward, but don't let that mislead you in thinking the racquet must be moving down. it's not
don't know if you are agreeing or disagreeing ... my point was that most people that do not have clear straight-line shot to the box. in such a case, a *truly* flat hard shot (100+) is very hard to go in for people of average stature without some help. gravity helps, but spin can help to a much greater extent.Most people seem to serve from close to the center line in singles, and a few feet away from it in doubles. They seem to do it with all kinds of serves - flat, slice and kick.
There are some who serve as you said - and they do happen to be tall.
don't know if you are agreeing or disagreeing ... my point was that most people that do not have clear straight-line shot to the box. in such a case, a *truly* flat hard shot (100+) is very hard to go in for people of average stature without some help. gravity helps, but spin can help to a much greater extent.
ok, i see....Agreeing.
Disagreement was with something else - whether the ball is hit up or down in flat and slice serves. If topspin is added, upward motion is needed, as we all seem to agree.