Cheaters (heros) vs. Honest Players (villains)

drakulie · May 8, 2009

I have noticed this section of the boards is CONSTANTLY filled with threads asking what to do with the following type of players:

1. Show up late
2. Don't provide a proper warm up (you know, the ones who want to win the warm-up)
3. Players who hook you on calls.
4. Foot faulters
5. Players who don't play "lets" fairly
6. BLATANT CHEATERS
7. etc.

Anyway, I have also noticed that there are **MANY** posters who seem to feel that "certain rules" shouldn't apply, and always remind us, "they are just out there for fun".

My question is, since when did it become **VOGUE** or **HIP** to allow rule-breaking, and since when did it become the norm that players who play by the rules are "VILLAINS", while the ones who cheat and/or allow cheating to go on, are the "HEROS" and considered somehow "above the ones who follow rules???

Personally, I feel if you are playing a match, you should play by the rules. Period. If not, why bother keeping score, if it is "just for fun"??

Please discuss, and lets keep it clean. :evil:

FloridaAG · May 8, 2009

Good topic Drak. Wife lost her league semi-final match last night to a cheater/rule breaker - was pathetic. Some examples:

1. The obvious - calling in balls out - I was on a different court and even from that distance saw one blatantly wrong call

2. Her boyfriend arrives whistling mid-match and the woman tries to claim a let on her serve because her boyfriend distracted her

3. Constant chatter between points by boyfriend and opponent

4. She broke a string - and proceeded to say she was quitting twice - walked off the court and then changed her mind and came back.

Unfortunately - my wife is too nice and not experienced enough with people like this to have either reamed her out, demanded a stop, - or simply indicated she was protesting the match unless the opponent ceased her conduct. She decided she did not care enough to deal with it and played the match out simply wanting to be done.

goober · May 8, 2009

drakulie said:
Personally, I feel if you are playing a match, you should play by the rules. Period. If not, why bother keeping score, if it is "just for fun"??

Let me give you the following scenarios since you say you play the by the rules period-

1. Playing social mixed dubs: your 65 year old mother in law has been having a terrible day playing tennis. She is missing easy shots, can't serve the ball in the court. She finally gets a good serve in but foot faults. So you are calling it on her?

2. You have a friendly match with buddy with dinner and beer to the winner on the line. He shows up 20 minutes late because he is stuck in traffic. He easily beats you 6-3, 6-2. But since he was past the 15 minute mark you default him and claim dinner?

3. You are playing in a company tennis tournament finals. Your partner is your boss. He has a call in the middle of the match. He excuses himself for 15 minutes saying it is something important. Everyone agrees to start off where you guys left off- but since you are following the rules you default your team since your are not allowed to take such break in the middle of a match.

Grampy · May 8, 2009

drakulie said:
I have noticed this section of the boards is CONSTANTLY filled with threads asking what to do with the following type of players:

1. Show up late
2. Don't provide a proper warm up (you know, the ones who want to win the warm-up)
3. Players who hook you on calls.
4. Foot faulters
5. Players who don't play "lets" fairly
6. BLATANT CHEATERS
7. etc.

Anyway, I have also noticed that there are **MANY** posters who seem to feel that "certain rules" shouldn't apply, and always remind us, "they are just out there for fun".

My question is, since when did it become **VOGUE** or **HIP** to allow rule-breaking, and since when did it become the norm that players who play by the rules are "VILLAINS", while the ones who cheat and/or allow cheating to go on, are the "HEROS" and considered somehow "above the ones who follow rules???

Personally, I feel if you are playing a match, you should play by the rules. Period. If not, why bother keeping score, if it is "just for fun"??

Please discuss, and lets keep it clean. :evil:

There is a difference between cheaters and people who make bad calls. Some of the people I play with do not call the lines well, but they don't intentionally cheat. Your mental state can affect what you see out there. And some balls are hard to call.

The best thing you can do against an obvious cheater is beat the crap out of them (in tennis, not with your fists). And when they do cheat, consider it a mental test for yourself on whether you can put it behind you and move on, or whether it will affect you the rest of the match.

Now if you are playing in sanctioned tourneys against a cheater, you can always opt for a line judge.

herrburgess · May 8, 2009

drakulie said:
I have noticed this section of the boards is CONSTANTLY filled with threads asking what to do with the following type of players:

1. Show up late
2. Don't provide a proper warm up (you know, the ones who want to win the warm-up)
3. Players who hook you on calls.
4. Foot faulters
5. Players who don't play "lets" fairly
6. BLATANT CHEATERS
7. etc.

Anyway, I have also noticed that there are **MANY** posters who seem to feel that "certain rules" shouldn't apply, and always remind us, "they are just out there for fun".

My question is, since when did it become **VOGUE** or **HIP** to allow rule-breaking, and since when did it become the norm that players who play by the rules are "VILLAINS", while the ones who cheat and/or allow cheating to go on, are the "HEROS" and considered somehow "above the ones who follow rules???

Personally, I feel if you are playing a match, you should play by the rules. Period. If not, why bother keeping score, if it is "just for fun"??

Please discuss, and lets keep it clean. :evil:

For me it's pretty simple: people come before rules. I would rather afford people trust until they demonstrate that they're intentionally abusing that trust. If they do, I'd rather not play with them. And if someone demonstrates that they don't trust me by immediately and constantly being a stickler for the "rules" then I'd rather not play with them either. In such situations I don't see myself as the "hero" or them as the "villains," just that the game is no fun anymore. I think it's the underlying tendency to see people as either "heroes" or "villains" that breeds behavior like "playing by the rules. Period," and not the other way around.

drakulie · May 8, 2009

Ok, couple of things before I comment.

My question in my op was more::: why are people on thie board, who play honestly and with-the rules considered "villains", and why blatant cheaters are considered "heros"??

secondly, since when did it become "vogue" or "hip" to play outside the rules of tennis???

Anyway, hereyou go:

goober said:
1. Playing social mixed dubs: your 65 year old mother in law has been having a terrible day playing tennis. She is missing easy shots, can't serve the ball in the court. She finally gets a good serve in but foot faults. So you are calling it on her?

My answer to this scenario is as follows:

Since you are deeming this a "social", then you are implying you could care less about the outcome, nor does anyone else. Therefore, If she can't get any shots in, then why wouldn't you cut her some slack and call her out balls in and just play the point out since you want to be considered a "hero", and not a "villain" towards your mother in law. Why would you only consider cutting her some slack on foot faults, and not on everything else???

goober said:
2. You have a friendly match with buddy with dinner and beer to the winner on the line. He shows up 20 minutes late because he is stuck in traffic. He easily beats you 6-3, 6-2. But since he was past the 15 minute mark you default him and claim dinner?

You decided to play the match, even though he was late. You lose. Pay up for the beer and dinner.

goober said:
3. You are playing in a company tennis tournament finals. Your partner is your boss. He has a call in the middle of the match. He excuses himself for 15 minutes saying it is something important. Everyone agrees to start off where you guys left off- but since you are following the rules you default your team since your are not allowed to take such break in the middle of a match.

Everyone has agreed to play the match under these condition you describe. In this case, it is not up to one person, rather the opposing team, whom has given a grace on the time. You play on.

Grampy said:
There is a difference between cheaters and people who make bad calls. Some of the people I play with do not call the lines well, but they don't intentionally cheat. Your mental state can affect what you see out there. And some balls are hard to call.

Agreed. However, this is not what I am talking about, nor asking a question about.

Grampy said:
The best thing you can do against an obvious cheater is beat the crap out of them (in tennis, not with your fists). And when they do cheat, consider it a mental test for yourself on whether you can put it behind you and move on, or whether it will affect you the rest of the match.

Now if you are playing in sanctioned tourneys against a cheater, you can always opt for a line judge.

again, please read the original post and respond appropriately.

Thanks.

drakulie · May 8, 2009

herrburgess said:
For me it's pretty simple: people come before rules. I would rather afford people trust until they demonstrate that they're intentionally abusing that trust. If they do, I'd rather not play with them. And if someone demonstrates that they don't trust me by immediately and constantly being a stickler for the "rules" then I'd rather not play with them either.

In other words, there are certain rules you will play by, and others you refuse to have enforced on you. Thanks.

drakulie · May 8, 2009

FloridaAG said:
Good topic Drak. Wife lost her league semi-final match last night to a cheater/rule breaker - was pathetic. Some examples:

1. The obvious - calling in balls out - I was on a different court and even from that distance saw one blatantly wrong call

2. Her boyfriend arrives whistling mid-match and the woman tries to claim a let on her serve because her boyfriend distracted her

3. Constant chatter between points by boyfriend and opponent

4. She broke a string - and proceeded to say she was quitting twice - walked off the court and then changed her mind and came back.

Unfortunately - my wife is too nice and not experienced enough with people like this to have either reamed her out, demanded a stop, - or simply indicated she was protesting the match unless the opponent ceased her conduct. She decided she did not care enough to deal with it and played the match out simply wanting to be done.

Sorry to hear that.

I'm sure in your wife's case, even though she was well with the rules do say/do something, if she would have>>> she woudl immediately be deemed a villain. Worse, being that she is a woman, would be considered a B!thc.

Very sad when people abuse others and take tit for granted that their behavior is not only OK, but should be tolerated.

This is what our society has come to.

Joeyg · May 8, 2009

Hi Goober,

You know that you and I are simpatico on a lot of issues. However, I think you are being a little simplistic using the examples you have listed.

Sure, in those situations, you would come off as a bit of a jerk if you upheld the rules.

That being said, I always try and play by all of the rules in "almost" every situation. It just doesn't make sense to me to play by some and not all of the rules.

joeyg

herrburgess · May 8, 2009

drakulie said:
In other words, there are certain rules you will play by, and others you refuse to have enforced on you. Thanks.

To answer your OP: Maybe there's a general tendency for people to think of those who feel it necessary to "enforce [rules] on you" as generally more unpleasant than those who don't.

drakulie · May 8, 2009

^^^Gotcha, and thanks for clarifying.

But why is it this way???

if a person is cheating, and is called on it, why is the person enforcing the rules, viewed as a "vilain", and made to feel uncomortable, and as if they are doing something wrong????

MNPlayer · May 8, 2009

My view is that one should attempt to play by the rules. In most cases, this is not too difficult. i.e. Call out balls out, but if there is any doubt, it was in. This does not make you a villain to me.

Tennis is somewhat different than some other sports though - sometimes called a "gentlemans' sport". Because we have rules/conventions like "play at the pace of the server" and spectators should not cause distractions during the serve.

Some of these things are obviously subjective and subject to interpretation. I think this is partly why there is a mentality that one should not be too much of a stickler for the rules, and people look down upon people who engage in gamesmanship (even if it is within the rules).

Let us all start with the assumption that the opponent is honest and honorable. I have very rarely been forced to change that assumption even in very competitive USTA matches and the like, although I've played lots of people with weird, quirky ways of playing. Just because they have a slightly different approach to the game or how the rules are interpreted doesn't mean they are bad people though.

herrburgess · May 8, 2009

drakulie said:
^^^Gotcha, and thanks for clarifying.

But why is it this way???

if a person is cheating, and is called on it, why is the person enforcing the rules, viewed as a "vilain", and made to feel uncomortable, and as if they are doing something wrong????

My guess is it depends on whether they think you're 1) pointing it out in a helpful/fair fashion; 2) pointing it out to get in their head, or 3) in essence calling them a "blatant cheater." #3 tends to get people miffed.

goober · May 8, 2009

Since you are deeming this a "social", then you are implying you could care less about the outcome, nor does anyone else. Therefore, If she can't get any shots in, then why wouldn't you cut her some slack and call her out balls in and just play the point out since you want to be considered a "hero", and not a "villain" towards your mother in law. Why would you only consider cutting her some slack on foot faults, and not on everything else???

Well I probably would give her all the close calls actually. But maybe that is just me.

You decided to play the match, even though he was late. You lose. Pay up for the beer and dinner.

No I am saying that you default him because you are playing by the rules for the dinner, but play the match anyways for practice.

Everyone has agreed to play the match under these condition you describe. In this case, it is not up to one person, rather the opposing team, whom has given a grace on the time. You play on.

No I am saying that everybody but you agrees to play the match but YOU since you are following the rules. Where does it say in the rules that opponents are allowed to give prolonged timeouts to the other team for any reason? If you were in a USTA tournament and decided in the middle of the match "Oh I have to go to the market there is something really important I have to buy" and your oppoents says "ok let's continue this match in an hour!" You go up to the TD and tell him, I can pretty much assure you he is going to default you regardless what the opponents says.

benasp · May 8, 2009

The rules doesn't imply putting your brain at off and just repeat the code line number ... The rules are made to get by when you cannot get to an agreement.

And when there are cheater, there are jerk who come with a loosy rule just to **** you off. Which one is better, i don't know but i don't like to play either of them

Cruzer · May 8, 2009

drakulie said:
I have noticed this section of the boards is CONSTANTLY filled with threads asking what to do with the following type of players:

1. Show up late
2. Don't provide a proper warm up (you know, the ones who want to win the warm-up)
3. Players who hook you on calls.
4. Foot faulters
5. Players who don't play "lets" fairly
6. BLATANT CHEATERS
7. etc.

Anyway, I have also noticed that there are **MANY** posters who seem to feel that "certain rules" shouldn't apply, and always remind us, "they are just out there for fun".

My question is, since when did it become **VOGUE** or **HIP** to allow rule-breaking, and since when did it become the norm that players who play by the rules are "VILLAINS", while the ones who cheat and/or allow cheating to go on, are the "HEROS" and considered somehow "above the ones who follow rules???

Personally, I feel if you are playing a match, you should play by the rules. Period. If not, why bother keeping score, if it is "just for fun"??

Very good and accurate observations. The people you describe would also likely play golf by winter rules year round, give themselves three foot putts, and kick there ball out of the rough to the short grass.
In any case the person they are fooling the most are themselves.

woodrow1029 · May 8, 2009

goober said:
Let me give you the following scenarios since you say you play the by the rules period-

1. Playing social mixed dubs: your 65 year old mother in law has been having a terrible day playing tennis. She is missing easy shots, can't serve the ball in the court. She finally gets a good serve in but foot faults. So you are calling it on her?

2. You have a friendly match with buddy with dinner and beer to the winner on the line. He shows up 20 minutes late because he is stuck in traffic. He easily beats you 6-3, 6-2. But since he was past the 15 minute mark you default him and claim dinner?

3. You are playing in a company tennis tournament finals. Your partner is your boss. He has a call in the middle of the match. He excuses himself for 15 minutes saying it is something important. Everyone agrees to start off where you guys left off- but since you are following the rules you default your team since your are not allowed to take such break in the middle of a match.

#1 is invalid because he can't call a foot fault on his opponent the first time they do it.

#2 you can't play the match out, then claim a default because of lateness.

Nellie · May 8, 2009

There are rules, and then there are "rules," right?

For example, when I play with my father (who is 75 and is a much weaker player) he will get really annoyed when I let stuff slip, like not properly calling a serve or a ball out. He wants to play and win fair-and-square and not get my charity call. On the other hand, he appreciated and I let him take a short break after every game, instead of every odd, or that I let him play on the shady side of the court. Of course this a friendly match.

Last week, in a doubles match, I hit the netman with a straight first serve. After I claimed the point, he walked off cursing expletives at me.

Gemini · May 8, 2009

drakulie said:
I have noticed this section of the boards is CONSTANTLY filled with threads asking what to do with the following type of players:

1. Show up late
2. Don't provide a proper warm up (you know, the ones who want to win the warm-up)
3. Players who hook you on calls.
4. Foot faulters
5. Players who don't play "lets" fairly
6. BLATANT CHEATERS
7. etc.

Anyway, I have also noticed that there are **MANY** posters who seem to feel that "certain rules" shouldn't apply, and always remind us, "they are just out there for fun".

My question is, since when did it become **VOGUE** or **HIP** to allow rule-breaking, and since when did it become the norm that players who play by the rules are "VILLAINS", while the ones who cheat and/or allow cheating to go on, are the "HEROS" and considered somehow "above the ones who follow rules???

Personally, I feel if you are playing a match, you should play by the rules. Period. If not, why bother keeping score, if it is "just for fun"??

Please discuss, and lets keep it clean. :evil:

I wouldn't necessarily look at points 1 and 2 as cheating necessarily UNLESS it can be determined if those things are done consistently and intentionally. Foot faulters, during a competitive match, I generally make my opponent aware of it no matter how severe it is. In a rec match, I might say something about it depending on the severity. Once again, I can say, unless someone is doing it intentionally, I try not to make it an issue. Your other points (blatant cheating, hooking) I definitely do take issue with.

But..to answer the question, I don't necessarily think people place cheaters (people who don't play by the rules) as heroes and make those that do go by the rules as villains. But to clarify my own stance, I have a guy that I've been hitting with for over 20 years. We grew up together. My dad and his dad are co-workers. We went to the same high school as part of the same graduating class. You could say we're kind of close.

When we play matches (which is usually about twice a week), we don't hesitate to catch an obviously out ball (like standing at least 4 feet behind the baseline and having to reach above our heads to catch it). That's what we do in "our" rec matches. Turn that around and having playing each other in a league/tourney match, there's no way I'm touching that obviously out ball until it bounces even if my own mother struck it. He feels the same way. Just because the action is tied to some sort of "courtesy" doesn't mean it does not violate a rule. We do our best to play by those rules that we KNOW explicitly when in serious competition.

I think the rules always do apply but like some said...you choose the times to enforce a rule.

OrangePower · May 8, 2009

Joeyg said:
Hi Goober,

You know that you and I are simpatico on a lot of issues. However, I think you are being a little simplistic using the examples you have listed.

Sure, in those situations, you would come off as a bit of a jerk if you upheld the rules.

That being said, I always try and play by all of the rules in "almost" every situation. It just doesn't make sense to me to play by some and not all of the rules.

joeyg

Good - I think we can all agree with this. The "almost" leaves room for judgement but only in very limited cases. This is as it should be.

MNPlayer said:
My view is that one should attempt to play by the rules. In most cases, this is not too difficult. i.e. Call out balls out, but if there is any doubt, it was in. This does not make you a villain to me.

Tennis is somewhat different than some other sports though - sometimes called a "gentlemans' sport". Because we have rules/conventions like "play at the pace of the server" and spectators should not cause distractions during the serve.

Some of these things are obviously subjective and subject to interpretation. I think this is partly why there is a mentality that one should not be too much of a stickler for the rules, and people look down upon people who engage in gamesmanship (even if it is within the rules).

Let us all start with the assumption that the opponent is honest and honorable. I have very rarely been forced to change that assumption even in very competitive USTA matches and the like, although I've played lots of people with weird, quirky ways of playing. Just because they have a slightly different approach to the game or how the rules are interpreted doesn't mean they are bad people though.

Exactly.

drakulie said:
^^^Gotcha, and thanks for clarifying.

But why is it this way???

if a person is cheating, and is called on it, why is the person enforcing the rules, viewed as a "vilain", and made to feel uncomortable, and as if they are doing something wrong????

I don't think most reasonable people would view this person as a villain. Certainly not if there is blatant cheating going on. But in some cases, depending on the rule being enforced, that person might be viewed as being petty. Why is this? Probably for the same reason that "bureaucrat" has taken on a negative connotation over the years, warranted or not.

Xisbum · May 8, 2009

Drak, what I've found in many years of playing friendly matches, league matches, tournament matches and club matches is that most people just don't know the rules - but they think they do because a friend of a friend of a friend of the local pro's wife told them this or that. Or they misread something in Tennis magazine. Or they are simply too stubborn to admit someone else may know a little more about tennis than they do. When I get into a match with some of these people, I treat it as a practice match; life's too short (mine is, anyway) to spend it arguing with a post.

In an ideal world, everyone would treat the game with equal respect; unfortunately, we don't live there.

You are no villain when you expect everyone to show the same respect for the game that you do. At least, not in my book.

goober · May 8, 2009

woodrow1029 said:
#1 is invalid because he can't call a foot fault on his opponent the first time they do it.

#2 you can't play the match out, then claim a default because of lateness.

#1 Ok what if it is the second or third time she did it? Are you giving out warnings and then footfaulting her after that in this setting? I sure am not going to.

#2 ok I''ll phrase it differently you default the match before you play and take the dinner and beer, but you agree to play a practice match for "fun"

The overall point is yes rules in general should be followed. In social matches and practice matches, everyone I know lets things slide a bit in the interest of maintaining your sanity. If a ball is flying 10 ft out and someone catches it so it doesn't bounce over the fence, there is no way I am calling that in a social match and claiming the point. What exactly I am gaining from that?

goober · May 8, 2009

Joeyg said:
Hi Goober,

You know that you and I are simpatico on a lot of issues. However, I think you are being a little simplistic using the examples you have listed.

Sure, in those situations, you would come off as a bit of a jerk if you upheld the rules.

That being said, I always try and play by all of the rules in "almost" every situation. It just doesn't make sense to me to play by some and not all of the rules.

joeyg

I actually agree with you. I just don't think it is reasonable to follow the rules without exception in all situations and any conditions especially in social matches and practice.

Xisbum · May 8, 2009

goober said:
I actually agree with you. I just don't think it is reasonable to follow the rules without exception in all situations and any conditions especially in social matches and practice.

Agree in obvious practice and fun matches, but I don't think it would be out of line to throw out the phrase, "You know that's our point in a tournament match," or if you or your partner catches the long ball, "you know this would be your point in a tournament match." Still friendly, but educational, too, if someone isn't familiar with that particular rule.

drakulie · May 8, 2009

Cruzer said:
Very good and accurate observations. The people you describe would also likely play golf by winter rules year round, give themselves three foot putts, and kick there ball out of the rough to the short grass.
In any case the person they are fooling the most are themselves.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Thanks for responding.

I'm sure most people who post in this section have never playedf league or tournament matches, and have yet to come into the situation where they **have to ** play within the rules.

Although I understand there are certain situation (for fun, goofing about, a family day at the courts, etc), where rules aren't going to be necessarily enforced, I believe people should get into the habit of playing within the rules if they plan on playing at a more competitive level. (hard habits are hard to break>>>> especially foot faults)

Xisbum said:
Drak, what I've found in many years of playing friendly matches, league matches, tournament matches and club matches is that most people just don't know the rules - but they think they do because a friend of a friend of a friend of the local pro's wife told them this or that. Or they misread something in Tennis magazine. Or they are simply too stubborn to admit someone else may know a little more about tennis than they do. When I get into a match with some of these people, I treat it as a practice match; life's too short (mine is, anyway) to spend it arguing with a post.

In an ideal world, everyone would treat the game with equal respect; unfortunately, we don't live there.

You are no villain when you expect everyone to show the same respect for the game that you do. At least, not in my book.

xisbum, thanks for your input. I think you touch on a very important issue overlooked. ((Do people really know the rules)) As you said, there is a lot of garbage floating out there, and many times, this doesn't help the situation, rather, it hurts it.

When I first started playing, one of the first things that were taught to me, beyond the basics of hitting a ball, were the rules. How to keep score, etc. Not only this, but I was taught the "proper etiquette" (unwritten rules), such as>>> don't walk onto and thru a court when people are playing. Don't return the serve when your opponent is warming up. Hit at the opponent (not away) when warming up. etc.

My first year of playing college, I remember our "first practice" was actually sitting in a classroom and going over/studying rules. Every semester we had to take and pass an exam on the rules of tennis.

Peronsally, I think anyone who signs up to play USTA should have to go thru some sort of rules exam before they are given a membership to play in league and/or tournament.

Lastly, my reason for starting this thread was that I noticed guys like woodrow, javierlw, myslef and several others were being "frowned upon" in other threads when we posted disagreeing with those who felt "above us", because they felt we were being "petty".

drakulie · May 8, 2009

to add, someone talked about practice.

When I'm drilling >>> I take the Jimmy Connors approach>>> everything is in.

r2473 · May 8, 2009

drakulie said:
I have noticed this section of the boards is CONSTANTLY filled with threads asking what to do with the following type of players:

1. Show up late
2. Don't provide a proper warm up (you know, the ones who want to win the warm-up)
3. Players who hook you on calls.
4. Foot faulters
5. Players who don't play "lets" fairly
6. BLATANT CHEATERS
7. etc.

1) In your world there are NO EXCEPTIONS. No mitigating circumstances? If someone is sufficiently late, they are DQ'd, no questions asked? Correct?

2) I don't understand this one.

3) How can anyone prove they were hooked on a call? Do you play on a court with "shot spot"?

4) As I understand the rule, opponents can only give a warning for BLATANT foot faults. Then they have to call an umpire and only the umpire can actually call a foot fault. In singles, how on earth can your opponent call a foot fault? It would have to be BLANTANT!!!!

5) Do you play on a court with Cyclops? If not, how can anyone say with certainty if there is or is not a let? (I suspect there is a reason why lets are played at the collegiate level).

6) What does this mean?

rasajadad · May 8, 2009

The replies to the OP make a few things clear. One is that there is a big difference between social tennis or practice versus league matches and tournaments. Another is that there is a big difference between tournament and league players versus social players.

There are things I'll do in a tournament match (i.e. default a player for being late) that I'd never do in a social match and vice versa. However there seem to be posters that only see this from one point of view. For example if I only played social tennis with my buddies, I'd never think of calling a foot fault. On the other hand if I'm playing a sectional quarter final against a 6'4" S&V player and he's got two feet in the court, I'd definitely bring it up.

Rule26 · May 8, 2009

Great post - I liken the difference to sportsmanship vs gamesmanship -

Sporting Types tend accept the points taken away by the rules regardless of the final outcome and compete (means to end)

Gamesmanship Types are primarily concerned with the gaining of their points (ends to a mean)

sureshs · May 8, 2009

Premise of the thread is not correct. Everyone is not posting about these things and saying that cheaters are heroes. It is just a strawman thread which will provoke strong responses.

JavierLW · May 8, 2009

goober said:
Let me give you the following scenarios since you say you play the by the rules period-

1. Playing social mixed dubs: your 65 year old mother in law has been having a terrible day playing tennis. She is missing easy shots, can't serve the ball in the court. She finally gets a good serve in but foot faults. So you are calling it on her?

2. You have a friendly match with buddy with dinner and beer to the winner on the line. He shows up 20 minutes late because he is stuck in traffic. He easily beats you 6-3, 6-2. But since he was past the 15 minute mark you default him and claim dinner?

3. You are playing in a company tennis tournament finals. Your partner is your boss. He has a call in the middle of the match. He excuses himself for 15 minutes saying it is something important. Everyone agrees to start off where you guys left off- but since you are following the rules you default your team since your are not allowed to take such break in the middle of a match.

Answer for 1.)

You cant use the extreme excuse as the means to try to defend the actions in all cases. In most cases we are not talking about playing our grannies here, we're talking about playing our peers either in a league or any general outing that we may describe as "fun". (and btw, my grannie would probably kick your ass in tennis so dont feel too sorry for her.....

)

Answer for 2.)

You are not allowed to use the lateness rule in all matches. That is a USTA tournament specific rule, or if your specific league has addressed that rule. So in your normal casual match it would be ******** to "make up your own rule" and claim the match.

Although if my opponent/friend is constantly late I may just leave at some point because it is very rude to be constantly late, but I know darn well some people think "it's just a tennis match, it's not important", so they'll show up 40 minutes late.

So again, that's a bad example.

Answer for 3.)

Again, you're quoting USTA Tournament rules for a non-USTA tournament. Another bad example.....

It's not the same thing as catching a fly ball out in left center baseline field, or foot faulting which are CLEARLY against the actual rules of tennis, not just some USTA Tournament rule.

Do you understand that?

Tournament Rule -> Doesnt apply to everything....

Tennis Rule (aka "rules of tennis") -> That's how you play the game, or else you are making up your own game as you go along....

drakulie · May 8, 2009

r2473 said:
1) In your world there are NO EXCEPTIONS. No mitigating circumstances? If someone is sufficiently late, they are DQ'd, no questions asked? Correct?

read post # 31 by javierlw.

r2473 said:
2) I don't understand this one.

Please read the entire OP.

I am providing different types of examples continuously brought up by posters in this section of the forum.

r2473 said:
3) How can anyone prove they were hooked on a call? Do you play on a court with "shot spot"?

Hmmm. So lets see. If you hit the ball smack dab in the middle of the court, and your opponent calls it out>>>> with your logic, you won't say anything since there is no way you could really prove you were hooked. :roll:

r2473 said:
4) As I understand the rule, opponents can only give a warning for BLATANT foot faults. Then they have to call an umpire and only the umpire can actually call a foot fault. In singles, how on earth can your opponent call a foot fault? It would have to be BLANTANT!!!!

well, what's ***YOUR*** definition of blatant?? 1 , 2 , 6 , 29 feet??

Let me know so I could send a memo to the USTA, in order for them to change the rule to what **YOU** feel should be the **real** rule. From there, we will all play with-in your rules.

r2473 said:
5) Do you play on a court with Cyclops? If not, how can anyone say with certainty if there is or is not a let? (I suspect there is a reason why lets are played at the collegiate level).

It is painfully obvious you have never even played a set of tennis within the rules, and obviously have no clue what the rules of tennis are.

r2473 said:
6) What does this mean?

Try the google encyclopedia. After that, send your second grade teacher a letter for failing you miserably.

JavierLW · May 8, 2009

herrburgess said:
For me it's pretty simple: people come before rules. I would rather afford people trust until they demonstrate that they're intentionally abusing that trust. If they do, I'd rather not play with them. And if someone demonstrates that they don't trust me by immediately and constantly being a stickler for the "rules" then I'd rather not play with them either. In such situations I don't see myself as the "hero" or them as the "villains," just that the game is no fun anymore. I think it's the underlying tendency to see people as either "heroes" or "villains" that breeds behavior like "playing by the rules. Period," and not the other way around.

You're not "hurting" anyone by playing by the rules.

Most of us are adults and if our feelings are going to get hurt over one point in a tennis match then we shouldnt be out there.

It's your instance that somehow it's only "fun" if we play the game your way that breeds any of this contempt or bad blood.

There are plenty of people who do play by the rules and they have just as much fun as you imagine that you will playing in your own very special brand of tennis. (like woodrow suggested about his match in the other thread)

LuckyR · May 8, 2009

drakulie said:
I have noticed this section of the boards is CONSTANTLY filled with threads asking what to do with the following type of players:

1. Show up late
2. Don't provide a proper warm up (you know, the ones who want to win the warm-up)
3. Players who hook you on calls.
4. Foot faulters
5. Players who don't play "lets" fairly
6. BLATANT CHEATERS
7. etc.

Anyway, I have also noticed that there are **MANY** posters who seem to feel that "certain rules" shouldn't apply, and always remind us, "they are just out there for fun".

My question is, since when did it become **VOGUE** or **HIP** to allow rule-breaking, and since when did it become the norm that players who play by the rules are "VILLAINS", while the ones who cheat and/or allow cheating to go on, are the "HEROS" and considered somehow "above the ones who follow rules???

Personally, I feel if you are playing a match, you should play by the rules. Period. If not, why bother keeping score, if it is "just for fun"??

Please discuss, and lets keep it clean. :evil:

Well, two thoughts. The first and simplest is to the question you actually asked, namely that appearing relaxed about tennis rules seems cool and enforcing them makes you a stiff. Your observation is correct as it stands but really is in agreement with any set of rules, sports based or otherwise. This is no suprise and why would you suppose that the opposite would be true? (That the strict rules enforcer would be viewed as laid back, relaxed and cool and the lax rules enforcer would be viewed as a tightly wound, anal retentive?) Perhaps this reality is being misread on your part by taking the next step and equating "relaxed and cool" with "HERO" and conversely "uptight and inflexible" with "VILLIAN". True, many will make that assumption but many others would describe "relaxed" as "lacksidasical" and would call someone "inflexible", "no-nonsense".

The question you didn't ask, but is key to this discussion IMO is that some folks see life as black and white while others can appreciate shades of gray. It seems to me that for you rules are either followed or broken (into the two groups you mentioned). Others feel that there are gray areas (involving their mothers-in-law apparantly) where "breaking" rules are warranted. This appears to be escaping many on this thread entirely.

Personally I understand gray, but appreciate that many can't/don't, so I understand the other perspective.

JavierLW · May 8, 2009

LuckyR said:
The question you didn't ask, but is key to this discussion IMO is that some folks see life as black and white while others can appreciate shades of gray. It seems to me that for you rules are either followed or broken (into the two groups you mentioned). Others feel that there are gray areas (involving their mothers-in-law apparantly) where "breaking" rules are warranted. This appears to be escaping many on this thread entirely.

Personally I understand gray, but appreciate that many can't/don't, so I understand the other perspective.

No it should escape this thread, because how someone views life has nothing to do with how they view a tennis match, that's just something people love to throw in there to try to dramatize their point that somehow the game is only "fun" when they play it in their own special way.

It's the usual misconception thrown around that if a match is "friendly" or for "fun", we'll let certain things go. However Ive been in these matches and there are just as many arguments in those as a serious Tournament match, because not everyone agrees what is acceptable and what is not. (which is the whole purpose for having rules in the first place)

Like if the ball is caught in midair, that's okay. But if I caught it in midair in the middle of the court that's somehow not okay even though I swear it was going out.

The same with footfaulting. Maybe it's not enforced for everyone but if some guy is jumping into the court and has a huge powerful deadly kick serve, then you'll have people whining about that. (and not just because of the rule but just because they cant handle it and it's not "fair" or "fun)

Here's the deal:

Tennis -> It's just a game. You can play by the rules and have fun and nobody should have their feelings hurt or lose money or anything.

Life -> Important..... We let things slide all the time. Life is just a lot more complicated that way.

Hopefully some of you can tell the difference....

bad_call · May 8, 2009

BLATANT...hmmm...
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=253683

r2473 · May 8, 2009

drakulie said:
read post # 31 by javierlw.

So no exceptions. If your opponent is 1 minute late due to circumstances beyond even God's control, you simply don't want to hear it.

Please read the entire OP.

I am providing different types of examples continuously brought up by posters in this section of the forum.

I think you are trying to say that there is an etiquette to warm-ups and everyone is expected to know and follow this etiquette TO THE LETTER. Right?

Hmmm. So lets see. If you hit the ball smack dab in the middle of the court, and your opponent calls it out>>>> with your logic, you won't say anything since there is no way you could really prove you were hooked. :roll:

Please tell us your stories (or point out posts on this board) of the above happening. I thought you were talking about close line calls that really nobody can call with 100% accuracy or 100% certainty.

well, what's ***YOUR*** definition of blatant?? 1 , 2 , 6 , 29 feet??

Let me know so I could send a memo to the USTA, in order for them to change the rule to what **YOU** feel should be the **real** rule. From there, we will all play with-in your rules.

My definition doesn't matter. That is the rule. You can only call obvious or blatant foot faults against your opponent (and then only a warning). You must call over the official. The official may call a foot fault. I do not think an opposing player can call a foot fault and take the point. If they could, imagine how many problems that would create.

It is painfully obvious you have never even played a set of tennis within the rules, and obviously have no clue what the rules of tennis are.

That is painfully obvious :wink: Nobody ever disputes a let call. They are always so obvious.

Try the google encyclopedia. After that, send your second grade teacher a letter for failing you miserably.

Those darn blatant cheaters. I can spot them a mile away dag-nabbit.

I am assuming that any opponent that does not agree with you with respect to let calls, line calls, foot faults (or anything else) are blatant cheaters.

What on earth makes you think you are 100% correct in all circumstances?

And with respect to players showing up late for a match, you are well within the scope of the rules for DQ'ing anyone that shows up a minute (or a second) too late. Some of us will give people the benefit of the doubt (especially if they do not have a history of being late and / or have a "circumstances beyond my control" type of explanation). I realize the world is not a perfect place and cannot always conform to a disinterested set of rules.

JavierLW · May 8, 2009

r2473 said:
And with respect to players showing up late for a match, you are well within the scope of the rules for DQ'ing anyone that shows up a minute (or a second) too late. Some of us will give people the benefit of the doubt (especially if they do not have a history of being late and / or have a "circumstances beyond my control" type of explanation). I realize the world is not a perfect place and cannot always conform to a disinterested set of rules.

No, you are wrong, most matches do not have a lateness rule, that is just a USTA Tournament rule or it could be a specific rule in whatever format you're playing in that was agreed upon.

You're confusing that with "the rules of tennis" which are the very definition for how we play the game.

r2473 · May 8, 2009

JavierLW said:
No, you are wrong, most matches do not have a lateness rule, that is just a USTA Tournament rule or it could be a specific rule in whatever format you're playing in that was agreed upon.

You're confusing that with "the rules of tennis" which are the very definition for how we play the game.

I am confused. The OP put in his list "people who show up late" and then went on to discuss how we need to keep to the rules.

I guess that I was saying that, in matches that do have a lateness rule, the OP is well within his rights to DQ anyone that shows up 1 minute (or even a second) TOO LATE (beyond whatever the lateness rule allows) no matter the reason (in fact, he doesn't have to listen to any reasons. I am sure the lateness rule does not typically have any provisions).

I simply said that in such a circumstance, I would consider the persons history (is he always late) and the circumstances (was there an unexpected road closure that he could not have planned for that caused the delay).

LuckyR · May 8, 2009

JavierLW said:
No it should escape this thread, because how someone views life has nothing to do with how they view a tennis match, that's just something people love to throw in there to try to dramatize their point that somehow the game is only "fun" when they play it in their own special way.

It's the usual misconception thrown around that if a match is "friendly" or for "fun", we'll let certain things go. However Ive been in these matches and there are just as many arguments in those as a serious Tournament match, because not everyone agrees what is acceptable and what is not. (which is the whole purpose for having rules in the first place)

Like if the ball is caught in midair, that's okay. But if I caught it in midair in the middle of the court that's somehow not okay even though I swear it was going out.

The same with footfaulting. Maybe it's not enforced for everyone but if some guy is jumping into the court and has a huge powerful deadly kick serve, then you'll have people whining about that. (and not just because of the rule but just because they cant handle it and it's not "fair" or "fun)

Here's the deal:

Tennis -> It's just a game. You can play by the rules and have fun and nobody should have their feelings hurt or lose money or anything.
Life -> Important..... We let things slide all the time. Life is just a lot more complicated that way.

Hopefully some of you can tell the difference....

Thanks for very clearly describing my point that some folks cannot appreciate shades of gray. Your post is a perfect example.

I don't disagree that playing tennis by the letter of the law, is any less fun than any other way. I just understand where some folks bring issues into their tennis playing lives that have nothing to do with tennis.

everyone's different.

JavierLW · May 8, 2009

LuckyR said:
I don't disagree that playing tennis by the letter of the law, is any less fun than any other way.

everyone's different.

Well Im glad you agree with me then.

So hopefully we can all drop the "it's just for fun", and "it's a friendly match so it's okay to do this...." lame excuses.....

If it's not fun it's because some person took it personally or they are way too self absorbed in their own personal made up guidelines to enjoy the game, whether they are cheating or not.

randomname · May 8, 2009

drakulie said:
I have noticed this section of the boards is CONSTANTLY filled with threads asking what to do with the following type of players:

1. Show up late
2. Don't provide a proper warm up (you know, the ones who want to win the warm-up)
3. Players who hook you on calls.
4. Foot faulters
5. Players who don't play "lets" fairly
6. BLATANT CHEATERS
7. etc.

Anyway, I have also noticed that there are **MANY** posters who seem to feel that "certain rules" shouldn't apply, and always remind us, "they are just out there for fun".

My question is, since when did it become **VOGUE** or **HIP** to allow rule-breaking, and since when did it become the norm that players who play by the rules are "VILLAINS", while the ones who cheat and/or allow cheating to go on, are the "HEROS" and considered somehow "above the ones who follow rules???

Personally, I feel if you are playing a match, you should play by the rules. Period. If not, why bother keeping score, if it is "just for fun"??

Please discuss, and lets keep it clean. :evil:

OK, I'm going to give you as honest and calm an answer as I can, because I dont want to just have this be another argument. But anyway, are you familiar with the graphic novel Watchmen? If not, look it up and the character Rorschach. Thats how most people see the "to the letter rules follower no matter what" as someone who takes the lines between good and evil to the extreme, believes there is no gray area, and very little, if any difference between a minor offense and a murder. He goes so far as to say that he would rather put the world at risk for a nuclear war than let one crime go unpunished. Thats why the rules sticklers are Villains, People dont consider it reasonable to do things like time people on changeovers or call small but consistent foot faults because its just not that big of a deal.

goober · May 8, 2009

JavierLW said:
Answer for 1.)

You cant use the extreme excuse as the means to try to defend the actions in all cases. In most cases we are not talking about playing our grannies here, we're talking about playing our peers either in a league or any general outing that we may describe as "fun". (and btw, my grannie would probably kick your ass in tennis so dont feel too sorry for her..... )

Answer for 2.)

You are not allowed to use the lateness rule in all matches. That is a USTA tournament specific rule, or if your specific league has addressed that rule. So in your normal casual match it would be ******** to "make up your own rule" and claim the match.

Although if my opponent/friend is constantly late I may just leave at some point because it is very rude to be constantly late, but I know darn well some people think "it's just a tennis match, it's not important", so they'll show up 40 minutes late.

So again, that's a bad example.

Answer for 3.)

Again, you're quoting USTA Tournament rules for a non-USTA tournament. Another bad example.....

It's not the same thing as catching a fly ball out in left center baseline field, or foot faulting which are CLEARLY against the actual rules of tennis, not just some USTA Tournament rule.

Do you understand that?

Tournament Rule -> Doesnt apply to everything....

Tennis Rule (aka "rules of tennis") -> That's how you play the game, or else you are making up your own game as you go along....

Response to #1): Of course it is an extreme example. The OP took an extreme position that he follows the rules period (which implies without exception).

Response to #2) If it makes you feel better make it a dinner bet on a USTA league match and the opponent shows up 1 minute late past default. Again it is a extreme example but the OP is taking an extreme position.

Response to #3) Sorry this is not a USTA tournament rule. This is situation would violate the basic rules of tennis set forth by the ITF. Read their section on continuous play.

randomname · May 8, 2009

I'm still intent on keeping it as civil as I can, but why the hell did you say keep it clean when you clearly only want to flame anyone who disagrees with you?

sureshs · May 8, 2009

randomname said:
OK, I'm going to give you as honest and calm an answer as I can, because I dont want to just have this be another argument. But anyway, are you familiar with the graphic novel Watchmen? If not, look it up and the character Rorschach. Thats how most people see the "to the letter rules follower no matter what" as someone who takes the lines between good and evil to the extreme, believes there is no gray area, and very little, if any difference between a minor offense and a murder. He goes so far as to say that he would rather put the world at risk for a nuclear war than let one crime go unpunished. Thats why the rules sticklers are Villains, People dont consider it reasonable to do things like time people on changeovers or call small but consistent foot faults because its just not that big of a deal.

That is very true. It is the product of a fundamentalist mindset.

randomname · May 8, 2009

drakulie said:
^^^Gotcha, and thanks for clarifying.

But why is it this way???

if a person is cheating, and is called on it, why is the person enforcing the rules, viewed as a "vilain", and made to feel uncomortable, and as if they are doing something wrong????

Part of the problem is your mindset too, if you go in thinking that anyone who catches a ball thats sailing long is a cheater then anything you do is going to be hostile and accusatory, thats probably the biggest reason you come off as a "villain"

The thing is though, you can have your cake and eat it too. Nobody minds the guy who just says, "next time could you just let the ball bounce?" or, "would you mind not talking so much in between points? its really distracting" so why is it so hard to do that?

Steady Eddy · May 8, 2009

I like to play by all the rules except for footfaults. When I learned the game it was considered rude to call footfaults. I don't call them, and I don't worry about them. BTW, I don't think I footfault myself, at any rate, I've never been called for it.

Cindysphinx · May 9, 2009

They have a word for guys who are sticklers for the rules, who see no grey, who can't look the other way on the smallest transgression, who won't apply compassion or common sense to any situation.

That word is "ex-husband."

chlsmo · May 9, 2009

I think Drak is talking about the people who claim points on what other people would consider technicalities.

For Example:

When opponents catch long serves before they bounce.

Or when opponents catch balls out of the air and declare that it was sailing long.

When your netman volleys a perfect winner down the middle opening but touches the net before the unreturnable ball bounces twice.

I know I would claim the point in those situations, and I wouldn't feel like a villain. It is those little nagging habits that people have on court that makes these issues come up in the first place. I suggest; don't be lazy, move out of the way of a sailing ball and let it bounce first. And on the last example I provided, I know if I was that netman, I wouldn't feel right trying to claim that point by saying, "You guys never had a play on that ball anyway." I don't see what difference that makes if I touched the net. Maybe people don't hit great shots that often and really need the moral victory.

The bottom line for me is that I play tennis with people like me, we want to have fun but we can also abide the rules. If I get hit by a lob when I am standing 4 feet behind the baseline that is my fault and I lose the point, I don't pull this crap about it was clearly going out and I actually purposefully meant for the ball to tap me on the shoe while I watched for it to bounce (yeah right)...

Anyway Drakulie, I am with you for the most part. If people are willing to let all of those other petty things go by, Why not play balls that are only 5 inches out as still good? They were still close right? Isn't that what matters?

moonbat · May 9, 2009

Cindysphinx said:
They have a word for guys who are sticklers for the rules, who see no grey, who can't look the other way on the smallest transgression, who won't apply compassion or common sense to any situation.

That word is "ex-husband."

(Don't you feel better now that he's no longer in your psychic space, or at least much less than he used to be?)

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