Video of NTRP 3.5 versus 5.0 player - tiebreak

winstoncho

New User
Hi,

Here's a video we shot last week of Suk (3.5 NTRP computer ranking) versus Wilson (5.0+) playing a tiebreak:

http://www.youtube.com/10sworld/

Direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa__h3-s9Wo

Wilson was kind of lazy so I don't think he was playing as well as he should have against Suk. If you're in the California Bay Area and you want to be one of our benchmark NTRP players, send me a message and we'll see if you're a good fit. We're just playing around with some video teasers before we release the site at the end of the month. The footage that you see here will be a compilation of 50+ players representing the various NTRP levels and we also have some current touring pros that will be showcasing.

Thanks,

Winston
 

ferrari_827

Professional
If you ask me, there doesn't look like any difference in levels as far as stroke production. The 5.0 doesn't look anywhere near what I think a 5.0 should be.
 

winstoncho

New User
I would agree, they don't look that much different. Suk actually should be rated much higher because he definitely has clean strokes for a 3.5 player but that's how the computer ranks him. As far as Wilson (5.0) is concerned, his balls are definitely heavier and it was hard for Suk to make clean contact on them at times. But I was surprised myself at how close the two looked. With some of our other matchups it's pretty lopsided and I'll post those shortly.
 
D

decades

Guest
the 5.0 was cruising at about 70% of effort. He was spinning his serves in. Suk looks like he could be a 4.0 easy....
 

ChopShot

Semi-Pro
If you ask me, there doesn't look like any difference in levels as far as stroke production. The 5.0 doesn't look anywhere near what I think a 5.0 should be.

Methinks you have a rather skewed view of the NTRP then. There is an absolutely enormous difference in stroke production. The 5.0 hits consistently deep balls, obviously tremendously heavy, rock solid off both sides, tremendous consistency, aggressive punishment of short balls. The 3.5 has iffy depth at best, average footwork, and inconsistent stroke production. That, and the 5.0 has a service motion with power potential - using all elements of the kinetic chain, while the 3.5 basically just arms the ball.
I think the videos are great, when studied closely. The expose the differences in level very clearly. Keep the good stuff coming.
 

winstoncho

New User
I would agree with the above that it does indeed look like 4.0 vs. 4.5 but Wilson was being very lazy. We have a video of Wilson against Justin and they definitely are playing at full intensity and look like true 5.0+ guys. I told Wilson not to take it easy on Suk but he was being too nice :)

Thanks for the feedback guys, I'll keep on adding and posting as we process them.
 

dr325i

G.O.A.T.
Methinks you have a rather skewed view of the NTRP then. There is an absolutely enormous difference in stroke production. The 5.0 hits consistently deep balls, obviously tremendously heavy, rock solid off both sides, tremendous consistency, aggressive punishment of short balls. The 3.5 has iffy depth at best, average footwork, and inconsistent stroke production. That, and the 5.0 has a service motion with power potential - using all elements of the kinetic chain, while the 3.5 basically just arms the ball.
I think the videos are great, when studied closely. The expose the differences in level very clearly. Keep the good stuff coming.

+1.....
5.0 (claimed) is definitely hitting different than the other guy (I'd say 4.0), and most likely not putting more than 70% into it...
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
Yeahp, I agree that the claimed 3.5 guy is underrated and the 5.0 is overrated. I really think a 3.5 vs. a 5.0 would be a huge blow out. It would be visible that the 3.5 was completely overwhelmed and stood no chance.

In this video, the supposed 5.0 is clearly the stronger player, but not 1.5 ntrp levels higher.
 

canuckfan

Semi-Pro
Higher rated players are often nice to their hitting partners and consciously give them 'looks' during rallies. They tune down their serve and especially their return of serve, and remove some of the aggressive shot selection that they would use when facing a more dangerous opponent. The stronger player knows he's going to win, and if the score gets close he will simply turn it on. There's no sense in blowing the other guy off the court 7-0 or 7-1.

It is clear that the 5.0 dude is doing this.
 
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GuyClinch

Legend
^^^This. its like hitting with your teaching pro - who is usually a 5.5. Its like the 5.0 guy could have really turned it up if he needed to.
The not giving %100 is big problem with all of sports evaluation.. Plenty of times people assume that a guy is going full out when he is in fact coasting. You see this all the time in the NBA when bad teams suddenly play much better in the playoffs.

I think the 3.5 guy is likely a legit computer rated 3.5 - that's a pretty fair assement. Sadly self-rated 4.0 and 4.5 play like him.
 

ubermeyer

Hall of Fame
I find it funny that the lower-level player's name is Suk (not that he does, really; he is definitely a 3.5, not underrated nor overrated). Also, he looks like Federer.

I don't think Wilson is a 5.0+ though... because even though he is going easy on the other player, he missed some fairly easy (for a 5.0) shots.
 

HunterST

Hall of Fame
Higher rated players are often nice to their hitting partners and consciously give them 'looks' during rallies. They tune down their serve and especially their return of serve, and remove some of the aggressive shot selection that they would use when facing a more dangerous opponent. The stronger player knows he's going to win, and if the score gets close he will simply turn it on. There's no sense in blowing the other guy off the court 7-0 or 7-1.

It is clear that the 5.0 dude is doing this.

That's the case if he's a true 5.0. I'm not sure though, considering the OP said the 3.5 was computer rated but did not say the 5.0 was.

He's a great player, but this video doesn't look like enough of a mismatch to be 5.0 vs. 3.5 to me. If he IS computer rated then you're obviously right and he's just taking it easy on his partner.
 

zapvor

G.O.A.T.
Hi,

Here's a video we shot last week of Suk (3.5 NTRP computer ranking) versus Wilson (5.0+) playing a tiebreak:

http://www.youtube.com/10sworld/

Direct link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa__h3-s9Wo

Wilson was kind of lazy so I don't think he was playing as well as he should have against Suk. If you're in the California Bay Area and you want to be one of our benchmark NTRP players, send me a message and we'll see if you're a good fit. We're just playing around with some video teasers before we release the site at the end of the month. The footage that you see here will be a compilation of 50+ players representing the various NTRP levels and we also have some current touring pros that will be showcasing.

Thanks,

Winston

yea wilson doesnt look 5.0 to me. he missed that fh way out long. i know 4.0s that can play better
 

Noaler

Semi-Pro
wow he missed like two shots that he probably just played bad at that point. Im leaning towards the 5.0 side but this isn't enough to show.
 
T

TennisandMusic

Guest
So the poor player and good player is named Suk and Wilson, respectively? Sounds like a bad tennis comedy. :p
 

Ptrac

Rookie
Its difficult to have a fair assessment of their ratings because each rally literally had a max of 3 balls in play. Suk does have some nice technique but again its hard to tell since the points are so short. Wilson groundstrokes are clearly heavier than Suk's. I think if Wilson was tested a little more we would see how good he really is
 

Avles

Hall of Fame
It's a tiny tiny sample, but winning 7 points out of 9 on average does actually add up to a huge blowout-- a player consistently winning that percentage of points will win every match easily, and will bagel his opponent almost every time. So looked at in terms of results alone, I don't think this video is that out of line with a 3.5 vs. 5.0 matchup.
 
If you guys are looking for the "big difference" between these two players, try the fact that the 5.0 is soft balling his first serves and the 3.5 still misses the returns badly.
 

Blake0

Hall of Fame
The 5.0 looked like he had a bad day, so he went 60-70%, and like 50% on serves. He still outpowered the 3.5 at times, although he missed a couple easy shots too. Guess everyone makes mistakes. 3.5 doesn't look that bad though, and if he was more consistent (he may be but got overpowered), he could be a 4.0.
 

JHBKLYN

Rookie
The score is pretty much what a 5.0 will do to a 3.5 in a tiebreaker. Even Tony Lars - a legit 5.5 player, wouldn't bagel a 3.5 guy every time they played a tiebreaker so not sure what people was expecting Wilson to do more to Suk. Of course, in a real match, the 3.5 guy would never get to a tiebreaker and would be bageled!
 

winstoncho

New User
some clarification

Hi guys,

Suk is computer rated 3.5 but he could be 3.5/4.0
Wilson plays #2 singles at one of strongest community college programs in the country (they regularly beat D2 & D3 programs) and he doesn't have a NTRP rating beyond what his coaches advise him to be. He's had ITF points and won matches at the international junior level. We have footage of him playing computer rated 4.5 and 5.0 players and he wins very easily against the former and wins most of his 5.0 match-ups. We're waiting for the other players to sign release forms before we post those videos.

These videos are part of the player profile we're going to load where we show NTRP levels playing against each other. These tiebreaks are not tiebreaks which took place after a 6-6 set. We have our players just play two tiebreaks against each other to show the "mismatches".

The footage of Wilson and Suk is not that good because Wilson was not playing very seriously and was goofing around. We have footage of him playing at his true level and I'll post those in the next couple of days.

Thanks for the awesome feedback everyone, this is exactly the kind of discussion and debate I was hoping for. I appreciate everyone's comments!

Thanks,

Winston
 

JHBKLYN

Rookie
These videos are part of the player profile we're going to load where we show NTRP levels playing against each other. These tiebreaks are not tiebreaks which took place after a 6-6 set. We have our players just play two tiebreaks against each other to show the "mismatches".

The footage of Wilson and Suk is not that good because Wilson was not playing very seriously and was goofing around. We have footage of him playing at his true level and I'll post those in the next couple of days.

Filming tiebreakers between different level players will not be a good way to convince someone how good one is. Forget scores, some people still think how you look is what your rating should be. I actually can't believe some thought this was a real tiebreaker! I guarantee you if you had a clip of a 3.5 getting some lucky shots against Wilson and lose 7-4, they'll say if Wilson is a 5.0, then I'm a pro! :)
 

BullDogTennis

Hall of Fame
im guessing by the way the guy is talking...the guy is a computer rated 5.0...how can yall argue this? anyone can be having an off day and miss a forehand long...especially when hes taking it easy on a guy...
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
As everyone said, 5.0 guy is relaxed and going thru the motions.
3.5 guy is pretty good, ready to move up for sure, but needs more time on anticipation, serves, and backhands.
So the gap is maybe 3.8-4.5, as lots of you said.
If 5.0 guy took it seriously, it would look radically different.
 

SuperDuy

Hall of Fame
As everyone said, 5.0 guy is relaxed and going thru the motions.
3.5 guy is pretty good, ready to move up for sure, but needs more time on anticipation, serves, and backhands.
So the gap is maybe 3.8-4.5, as lots of you said.
If 5.0 guy took it seriously, it would look radically different.

Are you around the level of Sok in the video?
 

pvaudio

Legend
I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing it. I'll give the 3.5 his ranking and MAYBE give him a 4.0. The 5.0, however, must be self rated because even if he is taking it easy to not blow out his opponent, he is often out of position and isn't using proper footwork. If he were doing what people were suggesting, he would just be playing his normal style, just toned down to let the other guy have some rally time. No 5.0 hits shots falling backwards or 8 feet out just to give away free points.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Ha ha....:):)
I was that level in '77, the year I made finals in my first C tourney, draw of 64, then two months later, won the C's in the SanFranciscoOpen, a draw of over 128 in the C's.
Following spring, rated in the lower B's, I played only A, Open, and ProQ's, passing up the chance to play tough matches with veteran B's who push and counterpunch, run, retrieve, gamesmanship, and bad calls.
Now a falling B, or 4.0, I"m sorta right in between the two.
 

SuperDuy

Hall of Fame
Ha ha....:):)
I was that level in '77, the year I made finals in my first C tourney, draw of 64, then two months later, won the C's in the SanFranciscoOpen, a draw of over 128 in the C's.
Following spring, rated in the lower B's, I played only A, Open, and ProQ's, passing up the chance to play tough matches with veteran B's who push and counterpunch, run, retrieve, gamesmanship, and bad calls.
Now a falling B, or 4.0, I"m sorta right in between the two.

ha, so you kept your tennis game going in the winter while You windsurf in the summer? I remember you mentioning you used to live in hawaii, did you play tennis there too and maintain your 4.0/4.5 level? also read before u said that u would go places to windsurf out of california like when u go to san carlos with your HondaCivicHatchback with 6 boards on top :) how did you maintain your level? because for me If I dont play for a month it takes a while to get playing good agian
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Actually, some years, I"d go 5 months without touching a tennis racket. Now remember, I went 4 and then 5 rounds in ProQ events, so I wasn't an average B player.
Never played seriously in Oahu. Tripped there over 12 times, hit at AlaMoana and DiamondHead, waaaay to hot for me. I was born and raised in the SunsetDistrict, SanFrancisco, which averages about 57 degrees all summer.
Takes about 3 hits (days hitting) to get back to decent 4.0 level, much longer to get movement and reaction shots.
I've never gone 3 rounds in any tournament in over 85 degree weather. Currently, at the RoseGarden where I occasionally play (it's full on windsurfing season here now), warmest I'll ever consider playing in is about 65 degrees. Mostly get there at 11, so it gets +10 by 2PM.
Will hit with Kiteboard and Yaz, just when and how is the question. K seems to regard Sakae pretty lowly, while I think of him as a real 5.0. We both play with Damien, who we both agree is solid 4.5.
 

SuperDuy

Hall of Fame
Actually, some years, I"d go 5 months without touching a tennis racket. Now remember, I went 4 and then 5 rounds in ProQ events, so I wasn't an average B player.
Never played seriously in Oahu. Tripped there over 12 times, hit at AlaMoana and DiamondHead, waaaay to hot for me. I was born and raised in the SunsetDistrict, SanFrancisco, which averages about 57 degrees all summer.
Takes about 3 hits (days hitting) to get back to decent 4.0 level, much longer to get movement and reaction shots.
I've never gone 3 rounds in any tournament in over 85 degree weather. Currently, at the RoseGarden where I occasionally play (it's full on windsurfing season here now), warmest I'll ever consider playing in is about 65 degrees. Mostly get there at 11, so it gets +10 by 2PM.
Will hit with Kiteboard and Yaz, just when and how is the question. K seems to regard Sakae pretty lowly, while I think of him as a real 5.0. We both play with Damien, who we both agree is solid 4.5.

nice read, temperatures over 85 are impossible to play in because the on court temperature is over 10 degrees hotter than the sourounding area temperature. While you say you are hardy, I wont play in temperatures under 57, I will play in temperatures below 76. Depends on if the sun is out or not. Man i couldnt even imagine trying to play in hawaii those places you mentioned pretty hot for me.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
I like the fact that JohnnyS/V refuses to play in anything below 65 or so, outdoors......:twisted::twisted:
Me, I hate Hawaii weather. 80's everyday, sunny, humid. I went there to surf or windsurf, not to play tennis.
Borne out in the fog belt in SanFrancisco ("the coldest I"ve ever been was a summer in SanFrancisco"), I play great in sub 50's, horrid in +70's.
 

supineAnimation

Hall of Fame
nice read, temperatures over 85 are impossible to play in because the on court temperature is over 10 degrees hotter than the sourounding area temperature. While you say you are hardy, I wont play in temperatures under 57, I will play in temperatures below 76. Depends on if the sun is out or not. Man i couldnt even imagine trying to play in hawaii those places you mentioned pretty hot for me.
I actually enjoy playing in really hot weather. It's a great way to improve conditioning and as long as you stay hydrated and replace salt along with fluids and electrolytes, I think you can play safely in any weather up to 90° or so. Plus, it makes playing in 80° feel like 65°.
 

SuperDuy

Hall of Fame
Well lucky me 65 today and im going to go play in 2 hours for 3-4 hours. So did you race motocross in hawaii too or just sf? And i remember u saying u make 5k a year, hows that survivable in sf bay area? like before u said you spent 7k a year on motocross stuff. im confused man, well im going to play tennis now actually try some of the stuff for sidespin forehand you told me about. good luck windsurfing berserkely if u havnt gone yet today.
 

SuperDuy

Hall of Fame
I actually enjoy playing in really hot weather. It's a great way to improve conditioning and as long as you stay hydrated and replace salt along with fluids and electrolytes, I think you can play safely in any weather up to 90° or so. Plus, it makes playing in 80° feel like 65°.

yeah hottest I ever played in was phoenix heat. 105 F lol, I was just about dead at the end of the hour. lol
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Hottest I've played a tourney was BATL B's in Concord...110... really.
I make less than $4,000 now.
But now is not as it always was. For motocross, I was making $25-45K, driving nite taxi in SanFrancisco (if you want stories!). I'd spend more than I make in 2 years now, just for bikes and accesories.
When I was roadracing, I was working for my sponsor Suzuki shop, then for HarryHunt (sponsored a couple of AMA pros, competitor to DonVesco). Working for them, I'd get the B bikes, current year TD-3's, TZ-1's and 2's, and some rides on factory 125 3 cylinder Honda GP bikes. Actually was the warmup guy for both ArtBauman and RonGrant, on the factory RG-500's.
But I only ever paid close to retail for my first bike. After that, race results or personal recommendations got me sponsorships ranging from BSAWestern thru several local shops.
Never raced up at the Comstock track above SunsetBeach. Too hot for leathers, boots, helmets, and actual non water sports.
 

Tennisman912

Semi-Pro
Truthfully, we haven’t seen that many points but a few things are pretty obvious from what we have seen. Sup would be one of the better 3.5 players I have ever seen at that level. Other 3.5s would struggle against him and he certainly could be a lower 4.0 IMHO. He certainly is not hitting the ball nearly as cleanly (many, many more slight mishits) than his opponent (not surprisingly) but against his peers, I bet he hits much cleaner. That lack of timing could keep him at the 3.5 level but as I said, against another 3.5 or 4.0, I bet he hits it much cleaner. His footwork and technique are also nowhere near as clean as his opponents (who is taking it very easy). He is struggling with the pace on shots even hit to him on the BH side, let alone if he was stretched out as evidenced by how far off his timing is on a few shots. His serve would be pummeled by Wilson if he was trying harder (except the one out wide that surprised him because he was not expecting such a good serve as that one was (also not much of a surprise as he knows even flat footed, he will get back 90-95%). He could have pushed it back like he did in the first point of the tiebreak. Then Sup stepped in and hit a solid BH up the middle, very un 3.5 like. Just listen to the vid and you can hear how many of Sup’s shots are not struck cleanly. He also mistimed his split step as Wilson hit that short ball, almost not landing until Wilson’s ball lands. He also really struggled with the balls that land nearer the baseline as he just isn't used to that good of depth (not that every shot of Wilson's is that deep), which also isn't surprising and is expected based disparate level of these two players.

Wilson is obviously playing very easy, more like 30-50% effort. He is really hitting his serves easy, not even full second serves and sup is struggling to those kickers up, especially to his BH. He has pretty good strokes and lets face it, cruising he still only lost a couple points. One a go for broke winner and the other a better than average serve out wide he put in the net. The one really short ball, he nonchalantly moves in and slaps the ball away for an easy winner. No need to come racing in as he would against a peer, who would have probably guessed one way or the other and moved in that direction instead of just standing there in the middle.

Sup is a great 3.5-4.0. I would believe that Wilson is a 5.0 give or take. Pretty good illustration but in the play of just a tiebreak, the differences are not as obvious as they would be in a full match (to the untrained eye). Even considering Sup, is closer to 4.0 than 3.5, I doubt he would get more than a game if he was lucky and most likely a bagel. If Sup were more like an average 3.5 (which again, he clearly is not), it would have been much, much worse even in the tiebreak. A nice video but there is ample evidence of the vast disparity of levels to anyone with a relatively fine eye. I imagine most advanced players noticed many of the same things.

Just my opinion. Not meant as derogatory as Sup is strong, especially at his rated level. Sup is certainly on the way up though.

Good tennis

TM
 
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