Doubles NTRP 3.5 & 6.0 vs 4.5 & 4.5. Who wins? Strategy?

[GN-001]

I'm playing club champs and in the first round of the men's doubles I'm facing a 3.5 & 6.0 (my estimate, we dont use ntrp). Dont ask me why a 6.0 is playing with a 3.5, maybe it's his friend or relative. Which team is more likely to win? What should my partner and I do besides the obvious "keep the ball away from the 6.0" and how? Based on numbers it's 9.5 vs 9

The 6.0 (6.5?) is a pro, career high of 800 ATP in singles (lost in 1st round of a 250 in 3 sets to a former top 30), 400 in doubles in 2019, young guy, huge serve, one of the best in my country. Played him once when he was 14 and he kicked my behind. The 3.5 I've never heard of. He played a match against my friend afew months ago and lost 3-6 0-6 and my friend always loses to me with a similar scoreline.

My partner and I are 4.5, all round game, we like to take shots on the rise and attack the net. I've got a strong forehand, average one handed backhand, my partner is solid on both wings. I think I will go on the deuce side.

Thoughts?

 

[Xen]

The 4.5s should easily win. 4.5s shouldn't have any serious weaknesses for a pro to exploit, while a 3.5 would have plenty for 4.5s to exploit. Y'all just need to survive any attacks from the 6.0 and aim for the 3.5

 

[Pass750]

The 4.5s should easily win. 4.5s shouldn't have any serious weaknesses for a pro to exploit, while a 3.5 would have plenty for 4.5s to exploit. Y'all just need to survive any attacks from the 6.0 and aim for the 3.5

A 4.5 won’t have any weaknesses for a Pro to exploit? This is laughable.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

A 4.5 won’t have any weaknesses for a Pro to exploit? This is laughable.

'Serious' weaknesses. Of course a 4.5 playing a 6.0/6.5 is going to have weaknesses, however I believe @Xen is referring to fundamentals.

 

[PRS]

I would just say the obvious: keep it away from the 6.0 at all costs, even if he's at the baseline and the 3.5 is at the net. If he's super competitive and trying to win, it might be pretty difficult to do. But if he's doing it more for fun, then it shouldn't be too bad for y'all. Just be weary because if he decides he wants to take over the game, he'll be very dangerous.

 

[tennis3]

If the former pro is really trying to win, you’ll get crushed. The 3.5 won’t play any balls

 

[Xen]

'Serious' weaknesses. Of course a 4.5 playing a 6.0/6.5 is going to have weaknesses, however I believe @Xen is referring to fundamentals.

Lol yeah. To clarify: 4.5s generally have all the fundamentals down, whereas a 3.5 will probably have some flaw that 4.5s can directly force errors with. High backhand? High pace? Heavy topspin? Short balls? There'll likely be some shot the 3.5 straight up can't return well. In singles, semi-pros will always beat a 4.5 0-or-1 because they won't ever make stupid errors, but throw a 3.5 on the field and in come the stupid errors.

 

[Xen]

If the former pro is really trying to win, you’ll get crushed. The 3.5 won’t play any balls

If the 3.5 just sits down in front of the net and the semi-pro goes 1v2 vs the 4.5s, then yeah, maybe he stands a chance. Too bad the rules are the 3.5 has to at least serve and return serves.

 

[tendency]

I'm playing club champs and in the first round of the men's doubles I'm facing a 3.5 & 6.0 (my estimate, we dont use ntrp). Dont ask me why a 6.0 is playing with a 3.5, maybe it's his friend or relative. Which team is more likely to win? What should my partner and I do besides the obvious "keep the ball away from the 6.0" and how? Based on numbers it's 9.5 vs 9

The 6.0 (6.5?) is a pro, career high of 800 ATP in singles (lost in 1st round of a 250 in 3 sets to a former top 30), 400 in doubles in 2019, young guy, huge serve, one of the best in my country. Played him once when he was 14 and he kicked my behind. The 3.5 I've never heard of. He played a match against my friend afew months ago and lost 3-6 0-6 and my friend always loses to me with a similar scoreline.

My partner and I are 4.5, all round game, we like to take shots on the rise and attack the net. I've got a strong forehand, average one handed backhand, my partner is solid on both wings. I think I will go on the deuce side.

Thoughts?

If the pro was truly top 800 then he was a 7.0 player (at that time). The question is, how long ago was that? I've seen ex 7.0 players that are now close to 5.0 now that they're in their 50s and rarely play.

 

[travlerajm]

The 4.5s should easily win. 4.5s shouldn't have any serious weaknesses for a pro to exploit, while a 3.5 would have plenty for 4.5s to exploit. Y'all just need to survive any attacks from the 6.0 and aim for the 3.5

It depends. If the 3.5 hugs the net, then he and his 6.0 partner will easily win.

 

[LuckyR]

Also it depends if the ex-pro goes all out. Personally I don't go all out when playing down. I just don't get excited stealing candy from children. I know others disagree.

 

[Yamin]

RIP

 

[JW89]

He's going to execute you both with overheads before he has a chance to decimate you 6-0, 6-0. Kiss your wife and kids before the match.

 

[ptuanminh]

The former pro can play against the 2 4.5s by himself and still win easily.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

I believe the two 4.5s should exploit the 3.5s weaknesses while trying their best to handle the 6.0s serve and groundstrokes. If you can target the 3.5, even if he is at the net, you have a pretty good chance.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

The former pro can play against the 2 4.5s by himself and still win easily.

That is if he can get the 3.5 to stand there and do nothing. At 3.5, players make common errors and mistakes. Serve return is still a factor for the 3.5, especially taking into account that a good 4.5 flat serve is anywhere from lower 70 to lower 90 mph. Estimating. I haven't been in that range in years.

 

[ptuanminh]

That is if he can get the 3.5 to stand there and do nothing. At 3.5, players make common errors and mistakes. Serve return is still a factor for the 3.5, especially taking into account that a good 4.5 flat serve is anywhere from lower 70 to lower 90 mph. Estimating. I haven't been in that range in years.

Ofc, targeting the 3.5 is the way to go.
If i were the 3.5, i would just hit the ball as high and deep as possible, and let the pro handle the rest. Any overhead from the 4.5s that is less than perfect, the pro will win the point.
The other day, i paired with a 2.5 lady against 2 3.5s. We won with that strategy.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

Ofc, targeting the 3.5 is the way to go.
If i were the 3.5, i would just hit the ball as high and deep as possible, and let the pro handle the rest. Any overhead from the 4.5s that is less than perfect, the pro will win the point.
The other day, i paired with a 2.5 lady against 2 3.5s. We won with that strategy.

I would sure hope that the 4.5, taking into account at 4.5 power should not be your first priority, would place an overhead towards the 3.5. It really depends on the type of players the 4.5s are, also. But targeting is the only way the 4.5s will win.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

The 3.5s want to kill the ball every time they get. lol

 

[tendency]

Lol yeah. To clarify: 4.5s generally have all the fundamentals down, whereas a 3.5 will probably have some flaw that 4.5s can directly force errors with. High backhand? High pace? Heavy topspin? Short balls? There'll likely be some shot the 3.5 straight up can't return well. In singles, semi-pros will always beat a 4.5 0-or-1 because they won't ever make stupid errors, but throw a 3.5 on the field and in come the stupid errors.

4.5 players will still have issues w/ their technique on a number of shots however their technique is far cleaner and causes them significantly fewer issues than on lower levels. Solid D1 high school varsity player, not high level or elite HS by any means.

 

[travlerajm]

I partipated in a 4.5/4.5 vs 3.5/6.0 match.

The 6.0 was a 7-time doubles slam champ, just 3 years after reaching peak ranking of #6 in the world.

My 4.5 partner and I won in 3 tightly contested sets.

 

[jmnk]

I partipated in a 4.5/4.5 vs 3.5/6.0 match.

The 6.0 was a 7-time doubles slam champ, just 3 years after reaching peak ranking of #6 in the world.

My 4.5 partner and I won in 3 tightly contested sets.

Which one of the below statements is more outlandish:

1. 4.5+4.5 won vs 6.0+3.5? or
2. a player 3 years removed from being #6 ranked _in the world_ is only 6.0

discuss....

 

[jmnk]

The former pro can play against the 2 4.5s by himself and still win easily.

a 5.5 _playing by himself_ will win against 4.5+4.5 easily. You are making it as if a 3.5 player was providing some sort of additional benefit to a higher ranked player - which is obviously not the case.

 

[tennis3]

a 5.5 _playing by himself_ will win against 4.5+4.5 easily. You are making it as if a 3.5 player was providing some sort of additional benefit to a higher ranked player - which is obviously not the case.

The 3.5 player provides a benefit to the opposing team. The trick is to goad him into playing a few balls.

It's pretty much the same strategy you use in mixed.

 

[ptuanminh]

a 5.5 _playing by himself_ will win against 4.5+4.5 easily. You are making it as if a 3.5 player was providing some sort of additional benefit to a higher ranked player - which is obviously not the case.

I know. just saying that, let the 3.5s run around outside the court and the 6.0 will take care of business.

 

[johnmccabe]

Also it depends if the ex-pro goes all out. Personally I don't go all out when playing down. I just don't get excited stealing candy from children. I know others disagree.

This is the kind of things that I don't like about rec competition.

 

[travlerajm]

Which one of the below statements is more outlandish:

1. 4.5+4.5 won vs 6.0+3.5? or
2. a player 3 years removed from being #6 ranked _in the world_ is only 6.0

discuss....

The 6.0 was 10 years removed from peak singles ranking of #5 in the world. So I figure 6.0 is fair assessment.

 

[WildVolley]

Not enough information to say who would win. The safe bet is for the 4.5s to always target the 3.5. If I were playing the 6.0/3.5 team, I'd hit every ball I got at the 3.5 unless there was an obvious opening in the court (say a put-away volley).

There's a wide variation in serve quality at 4.5. If the 6.0 is returning well, I might actually hit a low bouncing underhand serve for seconds, just so the 6.0 can't hit down into the court off a topspin serve, or play two back against the 6.0 on 2nd serves, while keeping the serve low. Usually when there's a disparity like 6.0 against 4.5, the 6.0 is going to hit a lot of winners, and the 4.5s need to just stay calm and play keep-away as best they can.

Serve returns against the 3.5 need to be sharp or the 6.0 is likely going to be poaching every return off the 3.5's serve.

 

[denoted]

You won a doubles match against an ATP #5 ten years after he held this ranking? Or is it a WTA player? An ITF senior ranking?

 

[travlerajm]

You won a doubles match against an ATP #5 ten years after he held this ranking? Or is it a WTA player? An ITF senior ranking?

WTA

 

[FuzzyYellowBalls]

I believe the two 4.5s should exploit the 3.5s weaknesses while trying their best to handle the 6.0s serve and groundstrokes. If you can target the 3.5, even if he is at the net, you have a pretty good chance.

The 6.0 was 10 years removed from peak singles ranking of #5 in the world. So I figure 6.0 is fair assessment.

Not enough information to say who would win. The safe bet is for the 4.5s to always target the 3.5. If I were playing the 6.0/3.5 team, I'd hit every ball I got at the 3.5 unless there was an obvious opening in the court (say a put-away volley).

There's a wide variation in serve quality at 4.5. If the 6.0 is returning well, I might actually hit a low bouncing underhand serve for seconds, just so the 6.0 can't hit down into the court off a topspin serve, or play two back against the 6.0 on 2nd serves, while keeping the serve low. Usually when there's a disparity like 6.0 against 4.5, the 6.0 is going to hit a lot of winners, and the 4.5s need to just stay calm and play keep-away as best they can.

Serve returns against the 3.5 need to be sharp or the 6.0 is likely going to be poaching every return off the 3.5's serve.

I agree not enough information really, but I'll add to the pile of anecdotes

Lost in this scenario--- 4.5 and a 4.0 versus a 2.5 or 3.0 and an unrated teaching pro 2 years removed from Big 12 NCAA tennis and he wasn't riding the bench. I'd say his level was "open" His partner was overweight and didn't move hardly at all, maybe a little after serving. Ncaa guy was very nice btw, but he was so freaking fast being still in his 20s and he was good being just barely removed from highly competitive tennis. In this case he would go in front of his partner or behind her if she missed and he was quite good at it. All he served was kick serves that obliterated us, and no the kick serves weren't what is usually discussed here on the forums, they were massive.
I had a hunch he didn't serve any first serves and asked him after, he confirmed my suspicions with a smile. He was about 6'3" so he could easily poach and cover for his partner,





it was pretty amazing.
I can't imagine what it was like for her to have so many balls hit for her .

 

[Bud]

Usually, the team with the weakest player on the court will lose.

The former pro will likely hold every service game.

Concentrate on hitting exclusively to the 3.5.

Two solid 4.5's should win that match.

 

[user92626]

The former pro can play against the 2 4.5s by himself and still win easily.

I know. just saying that, let the 3.5s run around outside the court and the 6.0 will take care of business.

Really? The former pro or specifically 6.0 in this case also has to cover his doubles court size? That's a tall order.

4.5s can return 100mph+ serves, you know.

 

[user92626]

Usually, the team with the weakest player on the court will lose.

The former pro will likely hold every service game.

Concentrate on hitting exclusively to the 3.5.

Two solid 4.5's should win that match.

Agreed. There's actually no strategy to learn to cover a weak partner.

Sometimes some partners are so weak that not only are they not helpful, they also cause damages, like running into good partners or pop the ball up for opponents to smash and injure good partners.

To win with a weak/bad partner, good partner has to play no less than a perfect game, but nobody can play a perfect game!

 

[ptuanminh]

Really? The former pro or specifically 6.0 in this case also has to cover his doubles court size? That's a tall order.

4.5s can return 100mph+ serves, you know.

I don't think 100mph serve is that big of a deal for a pro. Thats almost like second serve for them.
Watch this video of a pro vs a 4.5, every pro's serving point ends in 2 shots or less.

 

[Pass750]

I don't think 100mph serve is that big of a deal for a pro. Thats almost like second serve for them.
Watch this video of a pro vs a 4.5, every pro's serving point ends in 2 shots or less.

This reminds me of the threads that used to pop up here with people saying they could win points off of top pros. They would think there would be some kind of rally. They would be aced or served an unreturnable almost every time and in the off chance they were able to return one back that landed in the court the next shot would be a winner. The rec players serve would be dispatched similarly.

 

[Topspin Shot]

If you want to win, hit every ball at the 3.5, doesn't matter the situation. If they play a normal style of doubles, you can win. If the 3.5 hits only the serves and returns he's obligated to hit and stays out of the way otherwise, you're going to lose.

 

[CAREDDINGTON]

Really? The former pro or specifically 6.0 in this case also has to cover his doubles court size? That's a tall order.

4.5s can return 100mph+ serves, you know.

True, however the 6.0 can do more than hit the ball 100+. He will place the ball.