Doubles NTRP 3.5 & 6.0 vs 4.5 & 4.5. Who wins? Strategy?

G

GN-001

Semi-Pro
I'm playing club champs and in the first round of the men's doubles I'm facing a 3.5 & 6.0 (my estimate, we dont use ntrp). Dont ask me why a 6.0 is playing with a 3.5, maybe it's his friend or relative. Which team is more likely to win? What should my partner and I do besides the obvious "keep the ball away from the 6.0" and how? Based on numbers it's 9.5 vs 9 :-D

The 6.0 (6.5?) is a pro, career high of 800 ATP in singles (lost in 1st round of a 250 in 3 sets to a former top 30), 400 in doubles in 2019, young guy, huge serve, one of the best in my country. Played him once when he was 14 and he kicked my behind. The 3.5 I've never heard of. He played a match against my friend afew months ago and lost 3-6 0-6 and my friend always loses to me with a similar scoreline.

My partner and I are 4.5, all round game, we like to take shots on the rise and attack the net. I've got a strong forehand, average one handed backhand, my partner is solid on both wings. I think I will go on the deuce side.

Thoughts?
 
The 4.5s should easily win. 4.5s shouldn't have any serious weaknesses for a pro to exploit, while a 3.5 would have plenty for 4.5s to exploit. Y'all just need to survive any attacks from the 6.0 and aim for the 3.5
 
I would just say the obvious: keep it away from the 6.0 at all costs, even if he's at the baseline and the 3.5 is at the net. If he's super competitive and trying to win, it might be pretty difficult to do. But if he's doing it more for fun, then it shouldn't be too bad for y'all. Just be weary because if he decides he wants to take over the game, he'll be very dangerous.
 
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CAREDDINGTON said:
'Serious' weaknesses. Of course a 4.5 playing a 6.0/6.5 is going to have weaknesses, however I believe @Xen is referring to fundamentals.
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Lol yeah. To clarify: 4.5s generally have all the fundamentals down, whereas a 3.5 will probably have some flaw that 4.5s can directly force errors with. High backhand? High pace? Heavy topspin? Short balls? There'll likely be some shot the 3.5 straight up can't return well. In singles, semi-pros will always beat a 4.5 0-or-1 because they won't ever make stupid errors, but throw a 3.5 on the field and in come the stupid errors.
 
tennis3 said:
If the former pro is really trying to win, you’ll get crushed. The 3.5 won’t play any balls
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If the 3.5 just sits down in front of the net and the semi-pro goes 1v2 vs the 4.5s, then yeah, maybe he stands a chance. Too bad the rules are the 3.5 has to at least serve and return serves.
 
GN-001 said:
I'm playing club champs and in the first round of the men's doubles I'm facing a 3.5 & 6.0 (my estimate, we dont use ntrp). Dont ask me why a 6.0 is playing with a 3.5, maybe it's his friend or relative. Which team is more likely to win? What should my partner and I do besides the obvious "keep the ball away from the 6.0" and how? Based on numbers it's 9.5 vs 9 :-D

The 6.0 (6.5?) is a pro, career high of 800 ATP in singles (lost in 1st round of a 250 in 3 sets to a former top 30), 400 in doubles in 2019, young guy, huge serve, one of the best in my country. Played him once when he was 14 and he kicked my behind. The 3.5 I've never heard of. He played a match against my friend afew months ago and lost 3-6 0-6 and my friend always loses to me with a similar scoreline.

My partner and I are 4.5, all round game, we like to take shots on the rise and attack the net. I've got a strong forehand, average one handed backhand, my partner is solid on both wings. I think I will go on the deuce side.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

If the pro was truly top 800 then he was a 7.0 player (at that time). The question is, how long ago was that? I've seen ex 7.0 players that are now close to 5.0 now that they're in their 50s and rarely play.
 
Xen said:
The 4.5s should easily win. 4.5s shouldn't have any serious weaknesses for a pro to exploit, while a 3.5 would have plenty for 4.5s to exploit. Y'all just need to survive any attacks from the 6.0 and aim for the 3.5
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It depends. If the 3.5 hugs the net, then he and his 6.0 partner will easily win.
 
Also it depends if the ex-pro goes all out. Personally I don't go all out when playing down. I just don't get excited stealing candy from children. I know others disagree.
 
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He's going to execute you both with overheads before he has a chance to decimate you 6-0, 6-0. Kiss your wife and kids before the match.
 
I believe the two 4.5s should exploit the 3.5s weaknesses while trying their best to handle the 6.0s serve and groundstrokes. If you can target the 3.5, even if he is at the net, you have a pretty good chance.
 
ptuanminh said:
The former pro can play against the 2 4.5s by himself and still win easily.
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That is if he can get the 3.5 to stand there and do nothing. At 3.5, players make common errors and mistakes. Serve return is still a factor for the 3.5, especially taking into account that a good 4.5 flat serve is anywhere from lower 70 to lower 90 mph. Estimating. I haven't been in that range in years.
 
CAREDDINGTON said:
That is if he can get the 3.5 to stand there and do nothing. At 3.5, players make common errors and mistakes. Serve return is still a factor for the 3.5, especially taking into account that a good 4.5 flat serve is anywhere from lower 70 to lower 90 mph. Estimating. I haven't been in that range in years.
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Ofc, targeting the 3.5 is the way to go.
If i were the 3.5, i would just hit the ball as high and deep as possible, and let the pro handle the rest. Any overhead from the 4.5s that is less than perfect, the pro will win the point.
The other day, i paired with a 2.5 lady against 2 3.5s. We won with that strategy.
 
ptuanminh said:
Ofc, targeting the 3.5 is the way to go.
If i were the 3.5, i would just hit the ball as high and deep as possible, and let the pro handle the rest. Any overhead from the 4.5s that is less than perfect, the pro will win the point.
The other day, i paired with a 2.5 lady against 2 3.5s. We won with that strategy.
Click to expand...
I would sure hope that the 4.5, taking into account at 4.5 power should not be your first priority, would place an overhead towards the 3.5. It really depends on the type of players the 4.5s are, also. But targeting is the only way the 4.5s will win.
 
Xen said:
Lol yeah. To clarify: 4.5s generally have all the fundamentals down, whereas a 3.5 will probably have some flaw that 4.5s can directly force errors with. High backhand? High pace? Heavy topspin? Short balls? There'll likely be some shot the 3.5 straight up can't return well. In singles, semi-pros will always beat a 4.5 0-or-1 because they won't ever make stupid errors, but throw a 3.5 on the field and in come the stupid errors.
Click to expand...
4.5 players will still have issues w/ their technique on a number of shots however their technique is far cleaner and causes them significantly fewer issues than on lower levels. Solid D1 high school varsity player, not high level or elite HS by any means.
 
travlerajm said:
I partipated in a 4.5/4.5 vs 3.5/6.0 match.

The 6.0 was a 7-time doubles slam champ, just 3 years after reaching peak ranking of #6 in the world.

My 4.5 partner and I won in 3 tightly contested sets.
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Which one of the below statements is more outlandish:
  1. 4.5+4.5 won vs 6.0+3.5? or
  2. a player 3 years removed from being #6 ranked _in the world_ is only 6.0
discuss....
 
ptuanminh said:
The former pro can play against the 2 4.5s by himself and still win easily.
Click to expand...
a 5.5 _playing by himself_ will win against 4.5+4.5 easily. You are making it as if a 3.5 player was providing some sort of additional benefit to a higher ranked player - which is obviously not the case.
 
jmnk said:
a 5.5 _playing by himself_ will win against 4.5+4.5 easily. You are making it as if a 3.5 player was providing some sort of additional benefit to a higher ranked player - which is obviously not the case.
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The 3.5 player provides a benefit to the opposing team. The trick is to goad him into playing a few balls.

It's pretty much the same strategy you use in mixed.
 
jmnk said:
a 5.5 _playing by himself_ will win against 4.5+4.5 easily. You are making it as if a 3.5 player was providing some sort of additional benefit to a higher ranked player - which is obviously not the case.
Click to expand...
I know. just saying that, let the 3.5s run around outside the court and the 6.0 will take care of business.
 
LuckyR said:
Also it depends if the ex-pro goes all out. Personally I don't go all out when playing down. I just don't get excited stealing candy from children. I know others disagree.
Click to expand...
This is the kind of things that I don't like about rec competition.
 
jmnk said:
Which one of the below statements is more outlandish:
  1. 4.5+4.5 won vs 6.0+3.5? or
  2. a player 3 years removed from being #6 ranked _in the world_ is only 6.0
discuss....
Click to expand...
The 6.0 was 10 years removed from peak singles ranking of #5 in the world. So I figure 6.0 is fair assessment.
 
Not enough information to say who would win. The safe bet is for the 4.5s to always target the 3.5. If I were playing the 6.0/3.5 team, I'd hit every ball I got at the 3.5 unless there was an obvious opening in the court (say a put-away volley).

There's a wide variation in serve quality at 4.5. If the 6.0 is returning well, I might actually hit a low bouncing underhand serve for seconds, just so the 6.0 can't hit down into the court off a topspin serve, or play two back against the 6.0 on 2nd serves, while keeping the serve low. Usually when there's a disparity like 6.0 against 4.5, the 6.0 is going to hit a lot of winners, and the 4.5s need to just stay calm and play keep-away as best they can.

Serve returns against the 3.5 need to be sharp or the 6.0 is likely going to be poaching every return off the 3.5's serve.
 
CAREDDINGTON said:
I believe the two 4.5s should exploit the 3.5s weaknesses while trying their best to handle the 6.0s serve and groundstrokes. If you can target the 3.5, even if he is at the net, you have a pretty good chance.
Click to expand...

travlerajm said:
The 6.0 was 10 years removed from peak singles ranking of #5 in the world. So I figure 6.0 is fair assessment.
Click to expand...

WildVolley said:
Not enough information to say who would win. The safe bet is for the 4.5s to always target the 3.5. If I were playing the 6.0/3.5 team, I'd hit every ball I got at the 3.5 unless there was an obvious opening in the court (say a put-away volley).

There's a wide variation in serve quality at 4.5. If the 6.0 is returning well, I might actually hit a low bouncing underhand serve for seconds, just so the 6.0 can't hit down into the court off a topspin serve, or play two back against the 6.0 on 2nd serves, while keeping the serve low. Usually when there's a disparity like 6.0 against 4.5, the 6.0 is going to hit a lot of winners, and the 4.5s need to just stay calm and play keep-away as best they can.

Serve returns against the 3.5 need to be sharp or the 6.0 is likely going to be poaching every return off the 3.5's serve.
Click to expand...
I agree not enough information really, but I'll add to the pile of anecdotes

Lost in this scenario--- 4.5 and a 4.0 versus a 2.5 or 3.0 and an unrated teaching pro 2 years removed from Big 12 NCAA tennis and he wasn't riding the bench. I'd say his level was "open" His partner was overweight and didn't move hardly at all, maybe a little after serving. Ncaa guy was very nice btw, but he was so freaking fast being still in his 20s and he was good being just barely removed from highly competitive tennis. In this case he would go in front of his partner or behind her if she missed and he was quite good at it. All he served was kick serves that obliterated us, and no the kick serves weren't what is usually discussed here on the forums, they were massive.
I had a hunch he didn't serve any first serves and asked him after, he confirmed my suspicions with a smile. He was about 6'3" so he could easily poach and cover for his partner,





it was pretty amazing.
I can't imagine what it was like for her to have so many balls hit for her .
 
Usually, the team with the weakest player on the court will lose.

The former pro will likely hold every service game.

Concentrate on hitting exclusively to the 3.5.

Two solid 4.5's should win that match.
 
Bud said:
Usually, the team with the weakest player on the court will lose.

The former pro will likely hold every service game.

Concentrate on hitting exclusively to the 3.5.

Two solid 4.5's should win that match.
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Agreed. There's actually no strategy to learn to cover a weak partner.

Sometimes some partners are so weak that not only are they not helpful, they also cause damages, like running into good partners or pop the ball up for opponents to smash and injure good partners.

To win with a weak/bad partner, good partner has to play no less than a perfect game, but nobody can play a perfect game!
 
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user92626 said:
Really? The former pro or specifically 6.0 in this case also has to cover his doubles court size? That's a tall order.

4.5s can return 100mph+ serves, you know.
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I don't think 100mph serve is that big of a deal for a pro. Thats almost like second serve for them.
Watch this video of a pro vs a 4.5, every pro's serving point ends in 2 shots or less.
 
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ptuanminh said:
I don't think 100mph serve is that big of a deal for a pro. Thats almost like second serve for them.
Watch this video of a pro vs a 4.5, every pro's serving point ends in 2 shots or less.
Click to expand...
This reminds me of the threads that used to pop up here with people saying they could win points off of top pros. They would think there would be some kind of rally. They would be aced or served an unreturnable almost every time and in the off chance they were able to return one back that landed in the court the next shot would be a winner. The rec players serve would be dispatched similarly.
 
If you want to win, hit every ball at the 3.5, doesn't matter the situation. If they play a normal style of doubles, you can win. If the 3.5 hits only the serves and returns he's obligated to hit and stays out of the way otherwise, you're going to lose.
 
The 6.0 would almost certainly win 2v1 while defending the alleys. When the gap is this big, it's really a matter of sportsmanship letting the 3.5 hit any shots after their serve/return. Strange situation. 4.5 male / 3.5 female mixed can get like that as well.
 
TropicalFruit said:
The 6.0 would almost certainly win 2v1 while defending the alleys. When the gap is this big, it's really a matter of sportsmanship letting the 3.5 hit any shots after their serve/return. Strange situation. 4.5 male / 3.5 female mixed can get like that as well.
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As a 4.5M who plays a lot of 8.0 mixed, I take an unconventional approach.

Instead of marginalizing my 3.5F partner, I place he in the center of the action and have her stand with her racquet a few inches behind the center net strap.

It seems to work very well.
 
travlerajm said:
As a 4.5M who plays a lot of 8.0 mixed, I take an unconventional approach.

Instead of marginalizing my 3.5F partner, I place he in the center of the action and have her stand with her racquet a few inches behind the center net strap.

It seems to work very well.
Click to expand...
Right this is definitely how you do it. This way, any shot they get is trivially easy to get in the court, and often they can hit a winner, even at 3.5

There's still some sportsmanship involved. I've played against these teams, and when I hit full speed the woman is so scared of getting hit she kinda just backs away and lets winners go past her without swinging. There are one or two 3.5s I've met with exceptional eyes that will take it on, but they're very rare. On most neutral or slightly short balls, there's really no reason to hit anywhere else if your only goal is to win the point, which feels bad. It does depend, though. I'd say about half the 4.5s I know have enough velocity on the forehand to make this a problem (especially the 5.0 sandbaggers), but against the other half you'd probably get a good match.
 
ptuanminh said:
I don't think 100mph serve is that big of a deal for a pro. Thats almost like second serve for them.
Watch this video of a pro vs a 4.5, every pro's serving point ends in 2 shots or less.
Click to expand...
This is a good example, though, that a 4.5 CAN win points. Pros miss. They're human. Sure, a 3.5 would probably lose 24 points in a row, but a solid 4.5 probably wins a few points over the course of a set. Maybe not against Novak, but against a typical UTR 14. Games, on the other hand. That's a different story.
 
I am a 3.5 and my son is a 5.0+ and we played in a dubs benefit event this summer and took out 2 4.5s players in the semis.

The 4.5s did their best to hit to me and in fact drilled me 3 times when I was at the net. However, my son told me "We aren't losing this match" and he just took over and completely dominated those guys the rest of the match.

We knew two of his college teammates had already made it into in the finals in the other half and he really wanted to play them.

Now in the finals I was completely useless with 3 other 5.0+s on the court. It was completely different tennis than I have ever played and I did not deserve to be on the court with them. The points were faster, the movement was faster, the shorts were harder/faster.

We lost and took second.
 
LOBALOT said:
I am a 3.5 and my son is a 5.0+ and we played in a dubs benefit event this summer and took out 2 4.5s players in the semis.

The 4.5s did their best to hit to me and in fact drilled me 3 times when I was at the net. However, my son told me "We aren't losing this match" and he just took over and completely dominated those guys the rest of the match.

We knew two of his college teammates had already made it into in the finals in the other half and he really wanted to play them.

Now in the finals I was completely useless with 3 other 5.0+s on the court. It was completely different tennis than I have ever played and I did not deserve to be on the court with them. The points were faster, the movement was faster, the shorts were harder/faster.

We lost and took second.
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Sounds like fun. Awesome job in the semis. Perhaps I'm biased because there's so much sandbagging in my area. Sounds like it was doable at 4.5, and 5.0 pushed it over the line. It's definitely not every 4.5 that can really punish a 3.5 at net. I'm assuming you are male, though, right? Unless you're the boy's mom. There's a pretty big gap between 3.5 men and women.
 
It was a blast. I had never competed with my son before so that made it a lot of fun.

In the first round we played the 1 dubs from a local high school that made states and they had a cheering section. When we went to our netpost the kids in stands yelled down "You guys better look out as they crush the ball". I looked over at my son who had his college team shirt on and said "I think we will be OK".

We crushed them and I actually felt I helped us in that match. My son did make this crazy backward underhand backward winner and I could tell when he made that the kids knew their goose was cooked.

I am male and old. I used to be a beast at the net. Now I am a pylon. Anything hit at me at the net and I can't seem to react fast enough.

There is a pretty big gap between 3.5 men and women. I usually play with 4.0 or 4.5 women (former college players) which keeps me sharp plus they are much younger than me and it gives me incentive to play better as I don't want to be the useless old dude on the court.
 
That's awesome. Cheering squad probably went quiet real quick.

It sounds like, for you in your current form, there's a level of speed at which you're a pretty decent volleyer, but then, above that, it's hard to really follow the ball at all? And you feel like that speed has gone down as you've gotten older?
 
TropicalFruit said:
This is a good example, though, that a 4.5 CAN win points. Pros miss. They're human. Sure, a 3.5 would probably lose 24 points in a row, but a solid 4.5 probably wins a few points over the course of a set. Maybe not against Novak, but against a typical UTR 14. Games, on the other hand. That's a different story.
Click to expand...
But the goal of the Pro in this video wasn't to win every point. If that was the stated goal, he wouldn't ever make an error and play much more patient, understanding that the 4.5 can't hurt him. Sure, he'll lose the odd point here and there even if he's trying to win every point (it's hard to golden set anyone that can play). But I'd put the over/under at 8 total points and never more than 2 in a game.

In this video, he was merely trying to win every game, not every point (and he even gave 1 game away on a UE, which he didn't have to do).
 
tennis3 said:
But the goal of the Pro in this video wasn't to win every point. If that was the stated goal, he wouldn't ever make an error and play much more patient, understanding that the 4.5 can't hurt him. Sure, he'll lose the odd point here and there even if he's trying to win every point (it's hard to golden set anyone that can play). But I'd put the over/under at 8 total points and never more than 2 in a game.

In this video, he was merely trying to win every game, not every point (and he even gave 1 game away on a UE, which he didn't have to do).
Click to expand...
I'll take the under on 8.

Trying to win every game is the same as trying to win every point. Games are made of points. The only difference is that, if you're only trying to win every game, you might take points off at 40-0 or something, because you're going to win anyway, but that's never the case when you start down 0-30.
 
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