Crank vs. Wise 2086?
- Thread starter hpaiste
- Start date
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
it's not true. in fact the opposite is true. a constant pull is more accurate than a crank. if you strung the same racquet at the same tension w/ the same string using a crank and a constant pull, the stringbed strung by the constant pull will be tighter than the one strung by the crank.
in regards to reviews? there are many threads containing lots of good info. you just need to use the search function.
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drummerdan
Semi-Pro
I read that the Wise is a good tensioner (although no personal experience). It does seem like I have read that the Wise won't allow 360 degree rotation on many machines. It is generally accepted that constant pull (electronic or drop-weight) is more accurate than a crank. However, you can still get a good, consistent tension from a crank. The key is consistency and knowing what YOUR stringer does. One thing that will help your speed is to work to improve your technique. I have personally seen a stringer string a racquet in under 12 minutes and there was no wasted effort or motion. Obviously, excellent technique was used!
mad dog1
G.O.A.T.
the wise is supposed to be set up to pull tension at the same level as the stringbed so there is no loss of tension due to friction of the string being pulled at an angle against the grommet strip. when set up this way, the stringing machine loses the 360 degree rotation.
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Rabbit
G.O.A.T.
The Wise has two settings, one is lock out and the other is constant pull. So, if you prefer, you can use the lockout option to retain the same stringbed type.
IME, I find the constant pull setting on the Wise to produce a much more consistent string bed. There are zero hot spots when strung with CP and the stringbed feels firmer. To offset, you can, as I have done, reduce tension.
How much tension? Well, with the Wise the easiest thing to do is set your normal tension and choose the lockout option. Pull that tension, when the machine beeps indicating tension is reached, count to 5 which is pretty much how long it takes to get off the crank and set a clamp. You'll see the tension drop by about 6 - 8 pounds in that time.
Now, I don't mind a crank at all, I have a Neos. But, one must consider the variables associated with the crank locking out and the time it takes to set the clamp. this means there are more variances and that results in differing tensions. Is it enough to make a difference in my game? Probably not, but since I have a Wise, it's cool to know that I'm producing a consistent stringbed each and every time I string.
The other really nice thing about the Wise is the digital readout. Often, when you set a clamp, you don't see creep. And the Wise lets you know immediately if you have any creep from your clamps.
IME, I find the constant pull setting on the Wise to produce a much more consistent string bed. There are zero hot spots when strung with CP and the stringbed feels firmer. To offset, you can, as I have done, reduce tension.
How much tension? Well, with the Wise the easiest thing to do is set your normal tension and choose the lockout option. Pull that tension, when the machine beeps indicating tension is reached, count to 5 which is pretty much how long it takes to get off the crank and set a clamp. You'll see the tension drop by about 6 - 8 pounds in that time.
Now, I don't mind a crank at all, I have a Neos. But, one must consider the variables associated with the crank locking out and the time it takes to set the clamp. this means there are more variances and that results in differing tensions. Is it enough to make a difference in my game? Probably not, but since I have a Wise, it's cool to know that I'm producing a consistent stringbed each and every time I string.
The other really nice thing about the Wise is the digital readout. Often, when you set a clamp, you don't see creep. And the Wise lets you know immediately if you have any creep from your clamps.
hpaiste
Rookie
Thanks so much for the great advice! I have been stringing for about a year and a half, but I have never heard of this "creep?"
dgdawg
Professional
Sorry PBODY, but what I think Rabbit refers to with "creep" is a CP tensioner maintaining the CP before disengaging the tensioner. You can see the "actual" tension fluctuate, trying to maintain the "constant" tension.
I'm thinking what you refer to is "draw back" on the clamp bases.
I ask new customers where they had there frame strung before. Given there answer, I can usually ascertain what kind of machine was used.
If it was done on a lock out, I decrease the tension 3 or 4 lbs or so.
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PBODY, gotta agree with dgdawg here...... you're referring to drawback.
creep is permanent deformation of an object caused by the continued application of load/stress......
as an extreme example......on a drop weight machine the arm will slowly/eventually drop and contact the table top; on an electronic machine the tension will continuously readjust to maintain the selected reference tension until the tensioner runs out of travel.... or in both cases until the string breaks...
Rabbit
G.O.A.T.
Sorry to have been vague. What I was referring to was the situation where a clamp is not holding and you are not aware of it. The creep, as I refer to it, is the string moving heretofore undetectably through the clamp while you are cranking. With the Wise or other digital meter, you can detect this and correct it. This usually happens when starting a string job.
After stringing the first two or three mains on one side, you also get the benefit of the grommets locking off some of the tension. I've become actutely aware of consistency in my stringing since acquiring the Wise. It may be overkill, but my customer base is also growing since the club I belong to has decided to get out of the proshop/stringing business altogether.
If the creep is not severe, you cannot detect it visibly. And since the crank usually takes you away from the stringbed, you really don't have an option other than marking the string to see it. It was amazing to me how often this occurred. It's just another variable in stringing.
Now, there are two options to fix this, you can tighten your clamps, or use a starting clamp. I work a lot with natural gut and multis, so over tightening a clamp is not a good thing. I opt for using a starting clamp behind the fixed clamp. This works really well. I can't overstress the value then of a starting clamp.
What ddawg has referred to is also true. Between the time you pull tension on a lockout and clamp, you can lose and do lose tension. The tension loss is directly proportional to the amount of time between when the lockout brake set and you clamp. So, if you are very consistent in that time, your string jobs will be consistent. But, if the phone rings, you get to talking to someone, or anything else, it can lead to variations in tension which cause hotspots. The great thing about the Wise and other electronic tension heads is the consistency of tension on the stringbed.
With regard to drawback, the Neos has some drawback, but it is negligible. I think the Babolat and other dual action clamps do a much better job in elminating even this. My next maching will definitely have dual action clamps and they will also be diamond dusted. If I had to purchase right now, I'd buy either a Gamma 5800 ELS 2-point ($2299) or a Prince 1500 ($1299). The Gamma machines appear to be quality builds and I've spoken to a couple of pro shops who use them and really like them. They also appear to be a good value. The Prince 1500 would be a good option as well, I could continue to use my Wise and have a backup tensioner. But, the Prince does not have diamond dusted clamps which I think require far less pressue to hold.
After stringing the first two or three mains on one side, you also get the benefit of the grommets locking off some of the tension. I've become actutely aware of consistency in my stringing since acquiring the Wise. It may be overkill, but my customer base is also growing since the club I belong to has decided to get out of the proshop/stringing business altogether.
If the creep is not severe, you cannot detect it visibly. And since the crank usually takes you away from the stringbed, you really don't have an option other than marking the string to see it. It was amazing to me how often this occurred. It's just another variable in stringing.
Now, there are two options to fix this, you can tighten your clamps, or use a starting clamp. I work a lot with natural gut and multis, so over tightening a clamp is not a good thing. I opt for using a starting clamp behind the fixed clamp. This works really well. I can't overstress the value then of a starting clamp.
What ddawg has referred to is also true. Between the time you pull tension on a lockout and clamp, you can lose and do lose tension. The tension loss is directly proportional to the amount of time between when the lockout brake set and you clamp. So, if you are very consistent in that time, your string jobs will be consistent. But, if the phone rings, you get to talking to someone, or anything else, it can lead to variations in tension which cause hotspots. The great thing about the Wise and other electronic tension heads is the consistency of tension on the stringbed.
With regard to drawback, the Neos has some drawback, but it is negligible. I think the Babolat and other dual action clamps do a much better job in elminating even this. My next maching will definitely have dual action clamps and they will also be diamond dusted. If I had to purchase right now, I'd buy either a Gamma 5800 ELS 2-point ($2299) or a Prince 1500 ($1299). The Gamma machines appear to be quality builds and I've spoken to a couple of pro shops who use them and really like them. They also appear to be a good value. The Prince 1500 would be a good option as well, I could continue to use my Wise and have a backup tensioner. But, the Prince does not have diamond dusted clamps which I think require far less pressue to hold.
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Irvin
Talk Tennis Guru
I am going to have to disagree with you (and Herb) on that point you made. I also have the 6004 machine and got the Gamma add-on for my Wise.
The problem with the Wise on the Gamma machine is that the Wise only pulls in a horizontal plane. For 360 degree rotation the tension head has to be below the level of the racket to allow the handle to pass over it. When pulling tension with the Wise you run a risk of damaging the string (using multi or gut especially) when the angle going into the gripper changes when the tension head moves away from the racket.
Long story short you either need a Diablo or the extension with the Wise. Now lets get back to the tension loss and pulling level tension. When you string the top half of the racket's crosses (or the bottom) the string is bent more toward the to (or bottom) of the racket so you will still have tension loss. Only when you pull from the center is the no tension loss from the bend. If you pull from below the level of the string plain with a Diablo the angle remains the same so the tension is more consistent.
Irvin
hpaiste
Rookie
Hey Irvin,
Just from reading your posts, I can tell you are obviously the Federer or Nadal of stringing. Would you recommend a Wise Tensioner to someone who strings about 6-8 racquets per week on a Gamma 5003. I have been stringing for about a year-and-a-half, and I can string a two-piece in about 25-40 mins. Thanks!
I have a 6004... and yes, it would be worth it.... you will pick up time and get the benefit of the constant pull and pre-stretch functions.
You will definitely want to get the adpater for the Wise/Gamma combination sold here on TW. It will provide straight pull thru of the string thru the grommets so that there are no losses due to friction, but you will lose 360* rotation..... not a big deal IMO.
http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/Wis...oner_Gamma_Adapter/descpageWISE-WISETHGA.html
tennisace23
Rookie
The racquet handle will interfere with the tensioner. So you'll simply need to rotate the racquet around (like on a klippermate)
Irvin
Talk Tennis Guru
Sorry to say I would not. The Wise tension head is going to slow you down (but very little) and if you raise the tension a bit on the Gamma lockout I think it would be just as good. Why spend another $500 to get slowed down.
Irvin
dgdawg
Professional
OP......forget the tension loss mentality on any machine.
There are so many factors that go into a quality string job, the "drag" experienced from pulling downward slightly is, IMHO, inconsequential.
I did "2 tours" with a 2086 and rigged my machines for 360° every time.
Depending on the machine, if I had to, I'd probably get a 1/4" steel plate, drill holes in it to accomodate the bolts, and raise the table to achieve 360° rotation.
I only know of a couple machines that have a tensioning arm that "raises" on the move.
The most sought after machines on the planet pull at an angle to allow for 360° rotation.
You do need a "straight" pull into the gripper jaws so the string doesn't get trashed.
Herb's stance on the "straight pull" thing came from his machine trashing string. (this is only my opinion)
My 1st 2086 didn't come with a diablo, so I made one.
The 2nd one I had came stock with one. Problem solved!!
There are so many factors that go into a quality string job, the "drag" experienced from pulling downward slightly is, IMHO, inconsequential.
I did "2 tours" with a 2086 and rigged my machines for 360° every time.
Depending on the machine, if I had to, I'd probably get a 1/4" steel plate, drill holes in it to accomodate the bolts, and raise the table to achieve 360° rotation.
I only know of a couple machines that have a tensioning arm that "raises" on the move.
The most sought after machines on the planet pull at an angle to allow for 360° rotation.
You do need a "straight" pull into the gripper jaws so the string doesn't get trashed.
Herb's stance on the "straight pull" thing came from his machine trashing string. (this is only my opinion)
My 1st 2086 didn't come with a diablo, so I made one.
The 2nd one I had came stock with one. Problem solved!!
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dawg, I have to disagree with you on that one..... when i first got my Wise I adapted it to work on a 602FC and designed the adapter to allow for 360* rotation.....
I maximized the gripper height to allow 360 rot but the pulldown angle was significant enough that my racquet felt nothing like what it did prior to the modification and was unplayable IMO.
when I revised the adapter to achieve a straight pull (and subsequently lost 360 rot) the reference tension as a dropweght with the wise adpatation produced results that were indecernable (sp?).....
If I were designing a machine that allowed 360 rot I would compensate/calibrate the tensioner for the losses due to pulldown angle..... being that the Wise was not designed for a specific Gamma machine.... I would think that there is no compensation designed or Wise would not be offering the adapter.
rich
dgdawg
Professional
Hey rich-I'm cool. I guess we'll have to use the old cliche': "we'll have to agree to disagree"
I still maintain their are far more factors involved in a quality string job than the slight angle of pull.
99.9% of all "world class" machines have 360° rot.
dawg, that's cool...
Irvin
Talk Tennis Guru
dgdawg;5130155...I still maintain their are far more factors involved in a quality string job than the slight angle of pull...[/QUOTE said:
Technatic
Professional
Of course you are right that there are a lot of factors cause loss of tension in the stringing job.
But I assume that stringers try to loose as little as possible. The problem with the friction is also that the loss is higher with stiffer strings and rougher strings, so the loss depends on the type of string also.
IMO opinion there are quite some quality machines that offer a "special feature" to pull at the level of the stringbed.
The high end Babolats have a self lifting string clamp and the Stringway machine offer a Concorde System to pull the centre mains without friction.
dgdawg
Professional
dgdawg;...I still maintain their are far more factors involved in a quality string job than the slight angle of pull
Irvin-What are you saying????.....I have to think you misread my comment....
You say you disagree with me, but then basically say the same thing I said..
I'm confused here, man....
Irvin-What are you saying????.....I have to think you misread my comment....
You say you disagree with me, but then basically say the same thing I said..
I'm confused here, man....
Irvin- straight pull in the up and down direction is not impossible.
straight pull in the lateral direction is not possible unless the centerline of the string traverses the pivot point of the turn table.
be eliminating the pull angle in the up and down direction you eliminate the tension loss due to friction reacting the pulldown angle of the string....we will never be able to elimate the lateral pull thru angle unless someone makes a stringing machine where the table translates so that you can align the string you are tensioning with the pivot axis to eliminate lateral pull thru angle....
so in one respect I agree with you, in the other I disagree......
rich
dgdawg
Professional
.....my head hurts :-?......
I'm not a pro stringer or anything but I do have experience with using the Revo 4000 I have with the crank and then upgrading it with the Wise 2086. To me it's night and day different.
I go faster on the Wise without question. The version I have has the button to start the pull right up on the gripper assembly which makes it possible for me to do more one-handed than I could ever manage with the crank.
From what I read above folks seem concerned about mounting the Wise. In my case the unit slips onto the crank track -- the whole job took less than 3 minutes to fit it. Yes, it's high enough that it blocks 360 degree rotation of the table but I don't find that bothersome at all (fwiw). Even if I had to mount it lower I wouldn't be concerned though because it does have a diablo -- I think some of the posts above implied that the Wise would be trouble mounted lower than the stringbed height for lack of a diablo but since the Wise does have one (well, mine does), that shouldn't be an issue.
I have had an ERT300 for a good long while too and I've used it to calibrate how I'm doing at stringing consistency both with the crank and with the Wise. I measure every racquet as it comes off the machine. Again for what it's worth the data is: my stringing efforts with the Wise are way more consistent; tension, racquet and string type being equal. With the Wise I expect to get better than +/-1 dynamic tension point each time; it's most often the same number each time. With the crank it's more like something in the +/-3 range. It's only one measure of course but it does give me some basis that in fact personally I can do a more consistent string job with the Wise.
I go faster on the Wise without question. The version I have has the button to start the pull right up on the gripper assembly which makes it possible for me to do more one-handed than I could ever manage with the crank.
From what I read above folks seem concerned about mounting the Wise. In my case the unit slips onto the crank track -- the whole job took less than 3 minutes to fit it. Yes, it's high enough that it blocks 360 degree rotation of the table but I don't find that bothersome at all (fwiw). Even if I had to mount it lower I wouldn't be concerned though because it does have a diablo -- I think some of the posts above implied that the Wise would be trouble mounted lower than the stringbed height for lack of a diablo but since the Wise does have one (well, mine does), that shouldn't be an issue.
I have had an ERT300 for a good long while too and I've used it to calibrate how I'm doing at stringing consistency both with the crank and with the Wise. I measure every racquet as it comes off the machine. Again for what it's worth the data is: my stringing efforts with the Wise are way more consistent; tension, racquet and string type being equal. With the Wise I expect to get better than +/-1 dynamic tension point each time; it's most often the same number each time. With the crank it's more like something in the +/-3 range. It's only one measure of course but it does give me some basis that in fact personally I can do a more consistent string job with the Wise.
