why do we not see big open field hits in rugby?

pushing_wins · Oct 16, 2011

as we do in football and ice hockey. two players going at full speed at each other, one player caught with his head down and has to be taken out on a stretcher.

in rugby, i've noticed it's more pushing and wrestling. the open field hits are rather mild.

is that because of the rules of the game? or are the players holding back on the open field hits?

Feña14 · Oct 16, 2011

Not sure, never really been a fan of the sport.

I love the open ice hits in hockey though.

Zildite · Oct 16, 2011

There isn't normally much of a gap between the defensive line and the offense plus you can't just zero in on one person all the time since they can pass the ball. Also the tackler usually wants to steal the ball afterwards, acting like a missile doesn't really lend itself to that.

pushing_wins · Oct 16, 2011

Zildite said:
There isn't normally much of a gap between the defensive line and the offense plus you can't just zero in on one person all the time since they can pass the ball. Also the tackler usually wants to steal the ball afterwards, acting like a missile doesn't really lend itself to that.

i m a total noob. its on the tube 247, so i have watched a little. what is the main appeal of this game?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nr47KPlEL0Q

Zildite · Oct 16, 2011

I dunno...running, passing, tackling, scoring, the usual

(Also forgot before that you have to use your arms in a tackle, so no shoulder charges)

spaceman_spiff · Oct 17, 2011

Because most of the time the guy with the ball or the man trying to hit him aren't able to build up enough speed before the hit.

Also, the tackler can't go diving in too hard because either the guy he's trying to tackle will spin away or the he has to worry about tackling the next player if the ball is passed. With all the flowing movement, you can't commit to defending only one guy; you're expected to move over and help cover when the ball is passed.

If American football players were more willing to use laterals, then you'd see the same thing in defense.

That said, when a runner does get isolated or the defense outnumbers the attack in that part of the field, you can see some pretty big hits.

origmarm · Oct 17, 2011

There are some big hits for sure but it's less than in football for example for a few reasons:

- You can't block or tackle the man, without the ball
- No forward passing means many fewer passes into space so it's much harder to build up any speed
- Much more difficult to get up and keep defending rapidly after you've committed yourself to a big hit

You still so see some though, there are loads of compilations on youtube, for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcF_PryJFug&feature=related

These are no laughing matter, no pads/helmets and big big guys. There's on in there with Andrew Sheridan for example, met him, he's 280lbs but can bench close to 500lbs and fit enough to run for 80mins. When he hits you, you know it, even if it looks slow

Dave M · Oct 17, 2011

Origmarm is spot on there.
I would love to see NFL teams playing without pads, I think it would get better in a short space of time.(I like and watch a lot of both games). I do sometimes watch NFL and find myself yelling at a defender that if he'd tackle the guy properly rather than trying to get a piggyback he's of brought him down.
Can anybody in NFL pass the ball (backwards) and why don't they ship it around more when they are about to be tackled?

spaceman_spiff · Oct 17, 2011

Dave M said:
Origmarm is spot on there.
I would love to see NFL teams playing without pads, I think it would get better in a short space of time.(I like and watch a lot of both games). I do sometimes watch NFL and find myself yelling at a defender that if he'd tackle the guy properly rather than trying to get a piggyback he's of brought him down.
Can anybody in NFL pass the ball (backwards) and why don't they ship it around more when they are about to be tackled?

Once you pass the line of scrimmage, you are still allowed to pass backwards (pretty much like rugby); it's called a lateral.

You occasionally see it in desperation situations at the end of a game or end of a half, but that's about it. The rules about blocking and the fear of losing possession of the ball combine to make people very affraid to use it as a tactic, which is a shame.

There are loads of situations where a runner is ahead of his teammates and a lateral would lead to many more yards gained or even a TD.

goober · Oct 17, 2011

spaceman_spiff said:
Once you pass the line of scrimmage, you are still allowed to pass backwards (pretty much like rugby); it's called a lateral.

You occasionally see it in desperation situations at the end of a game or end of a half, but that's about it. The rules about blocking and the fear of losing possession of the ball combine to make people very affraid to use it as a tactic, which is a shame.

There are loads of situations where a runner is ahead of his teammates and a lateral would lead to many more yards gained or even a TD.

You can lateral behind the line of scrimmage as well (think whenever you run an option play).

Turnovers are a huge factor in determining the outcomes of games. It is extremely difficult to win football games if you turnover the ball a lot. Doing a lateral in the open field is a high risk manuever because in most cases the defenders will outnumber the the offensive players once you are in the open field. In most cases you are taking a huge risk fumbling the ball for a small reward of gaining extra yards.

spaceman_spiff · Oct 17, 2011

goober said:
You can lateral behind the line of scrimmage as well (think whenever you run an option play).

Turnovers are a huge factor in determining the outcomes of games. It is extremely difficult to win football games if you turnover the ball a lot. Doing a lateral in the open field is a high risk manuever because in most cases the defenders will outnumber the the offensive players once you are in the open field. In most cases you are taking a huge risk fumbling the ball for a small reward of gaining extra yards.

Sorry, I meant a lateral is still an option, whereas a forward pass is no longer legal after you cross the line of scrimmage.

After watching a lot more rugby, I don't think turnovers are nearly as big of a risk with laterals as I used to think. Those guys manage to hold onto last-second, surprize passes without dropping the pass or having it knocked out of their hands when they get hit.

It's really no different than when a QB runs an option play. It's just an option play where the option is always available until someone finally gets tackled.

goober · Oct 17, 2011

spaceman_spiff said:
Sorry, I meant a lateral is still an option, whereas a forward pass is no longer legal after you cross the line of scrimmage.

After watching a lot more rugby, I don't think turnovers are nearly as big of a risk with laterals as I used to think. Those guys manage to hold onto last-second, surprize passes without dropping the pass or having it knocked out of their hands when they get hit.

It's really no different than when a QB runs an option play. It's just an option play where the option is always available until someone finally gets tackled.

Running an option from the line of scrimmage is relatively safe because all the defense is in front of you and you are making a lateral diagnolly backwards to the RB. In the open field past the line of scrimmage you will have the defense coming from all sides and it is much riskier. Option is rarely run in the pros because most teams cannot afford the mutimillion dollar QB to take big hits.

Anyways with so many teams running spread offenses, realistically you are not going to have some to lateral to unless it is a designed play like a hook and ladder.

Mikael · Oct 17, 2011

that vid is great. the tackle at 2'10'' is insane - Chabal is a monster!

Mikael · Oct 17, 2011

on the very next one he actually ended up breaking the All Blacks player's jaw IIRC.

Bobby Jr · Oct 17, 2011

origmarm said:
There are some big hits for sure but it's less than in football for example for a few reasons:

- You can't block or tackle the man, without the ball
- No forward passing means many fewer passes into space so it's much harder to build up any speed
- Much more difficult to get up and keep defending rapidly after you've committed yourself to a big hit

This - and, unlike Rugby League or American football/ice hockey, in Union you cannot tackle without the arms... I.e. no shoulder charges.

Rugby is a brutally hard game at high levels. Unlike American football they wear basically no pads, have far fewer stops in play and, for the most part, players have to play the entire 80 minute match. Substitutions are about 1/5th of Am football levels because of the rules limiting subs... Also - once you've been subbed you cannot come back on (except in the case of blood bins or to cover specialist positions in scrums for safety reasons).

The All Blacks (NZ) vs Australia rubgy world cup semifinal last Sunday was a showcase in how tough you need to be to play rugby well. At least 3 player were left with bloodied faces/noses from high-speed impacts (not punches) and multiple others with other short-term injuries. American football is tough no doubt but the toughness is sugar-coated with dozens of substitutions, hundreds of stops in play and thick pads/helmets make it hard to compare to rugby union. They each have their quirks.

pushing_wins · Oct 17, 2011

Bobby Jr said:
This - and, unlike Rugby League or American football/ice hockey, in Union you cannot tackle without the arms... I.e. no shoulder charges.

Rugby is a brutally hard game at high levels. Unlike American football they wear basically no pads, have far fewer stops in play and, for the most part, players have to play the entire 80 minute match. Substitutions are about 1/5th of Am football levels because of the rules limiting subs... Also - once you've been subbed you cannot come back on (except in the case of blood bins or to cover specialist positions in scrums for safety reasons).

The All Blacks (NZ) vs Australia rubgy world cup semifinal last Sunday was a showcase in how tough you need to be to play rugby well. At least 3 player were left with bloodied faces/noses from high-speed impacts (not punches) and multiple others with other short-term injuries. American football is tough no doubt but the toughness is sugar-coated with dozens of substitutions, hundreds of stops in play and thick pads/helmets make it hard to compare to rugby union. They each have their quirks.

when you really think about it. there is nothing compared to open wheel auto racing in terms of nerves. they are on a death wish, subconciously they know it, but conciously they try not to think about it.

Bobby Jr · Oct 18, 2011

pushing_wins said:
when you really think about it. there is nothing compared to open wheel auto racing in terms of nerves. they are on a death wish, subconciously they know it, but conciously they try not to think about it.

Nerve is a whole other thing together, I agree. I do think that the perception of the layperson that motorsport requires huge nerve but to those who've done it their whole life it's not a mentally stressful activity in that regards at all. They don't drive thinking "don't kill yourself, don't kill yourself, don't kill yourself.." that wouldn't even enter their heads 99.9% of the time. Where they excel is pushing themselves to speed/proximity limits which far exceed those where 'normal' people would feel comfortable.

Timbo's hopeless slice · Oct 19, 2011

Bobby Jr said:
Nerve is a whole other thing together, I agree. I do think that the perception of the layperson that motorsport requires huge nerve but to those who've done it their whole life it's not a mentally stressful activity in that regards at all. They don't drive thinking "don't kill yourself, don't kill yourself, don't kill yourself.." that wouldn't even enter their heads 99.9% of the time. Where they excel is pushing themselves to speed/proximity limits which far exceed those where 'normal' people would feel comfortable.

yes, it is a bit like riding a large road going motorcycle compared to the family car, you have to get used to processing the information so much faster and allowing for diminished amounts of time in which to make decisions. At first, just seems impossible, but once you pick up the rhythm it isn't any harder than driving a car at 55mph..

It is a bit like returning a 5.0 + serve. At first, many people are like 'no way', but after a while they pick up the fligth of the ball and the shorter time frame and they are just fine (technique allowing of course)

LeeD · Oct 19, 2011

One thing some of you might have missed.
Rugby, there's a thing called OFFSIDES, where defensemen are not allowed in the "backfield" behind the ball.
In football, it's allowed once the ball is in play.
Think. You lateral backwards, and the defensemen is running right next to your receiver. End of lateral idea.

Zildite · Oct 19, 2011

LeeD said:
One thing some of you might have missed.
Rugby, there's a thing called OFFSIDES, where defensemen are not allowed in the "backfield" behind the ball.
In football, it's allowed once the ball is in play.
Think. You lateral backwards, and the defensemen is running right next to your receiver. End of lateral idea.

The rule is actually pretty much the same I think. Just replace the line of scrimmage with the hindmost foot of the hindmost player of the same side in the ruck/maul/scrum/lineout.

LeeD · Oct 19, 2011

In American football, the line of scrimmage cannot be breached until the ball is in play, then any defenseman can go anywhere.
In rugby, the defense cannot breach the hindfoot of the scrum's last guy, but there are still a bunch of territory he cannot go, and the backfield is filled with offensive players NOT mingled with the defense.

Zildite · Oct 19, 2011

LeeD said:
In American football, the line of scrimmage cannot be breached until the ball is in play, then any defenseman can go anywhere.
In rugby, the defense cannot breach the hindfoot of the scrum's last guy, but there are still a bunch of territory he cannot go, and the backfield is filled with offensive players NOT mingled with the defense.

Where can't they go once the ball leaves the ruck

Bobby Jr · Oct 19, 2011

LeeD said:
One thing some of you might have missed.
Rugby, there's a thing called OFFSIDES, where defensemen are not allowed in the "backfield" behind the ball.
In football, it's allowed once the ball is in play.

Offside is when the attacking team gets in front of the line of advantage and interfere with play in any way.

You're always allowed behind the ball in rugby when you're the team in possession... the ambiguity comes when kick-offs or bombs are kicked and players haven't recovered back past the line of advantage (or made reasonable effort to).

LeeD · Oct 19, 2011

In American football, once the ball is in play, the defense is allowed anywhere.
In rugby, it appears that once the scrum is in motion, defensemen must still stay on their side of the scrum, NOT ALLOWED to run to the offenses backfield and linger there.
And the reason there are few openfield big hits is because the runner with the ball doesn't want to appear in the headlines of the local newspaper as the "dumbest runner ever".

Bobby Jr · Oct 19, 2011

LeeD said:
In rugby, the defense cannot breach the hindfoot of the scrum's last guy, but there are still a bunch of territory he cannot go, and the backfield is filled with offensive players NOT mingled with the defense.

Only during a scrum (likewise when a ruck is formed, or during a restart, line-out or a 22 drop-out). Players can be ahead of the ball otherwise but there's no point - no-one can pass you the ball and if they kick it you have to be in-line or behind the kicker at the moment the ball is kicked to be onside and allowed to play the ball. They usually only end there by overrunning a pass or if a ruck was cleared, the team in possession is going backwards and they haven't gotten up and run back yet.

Bobby Jr · Oct 19, 2011

LeeD said:
In rugby, it appears that once the scrum is in motion, defensemen must still stay on their side of the scrum, NOT ALLOWED to run to the offenses backfield and linger there.
And the reason there are few openfield big hits is because the runner with the ball doesn't want to appear in the headlines of the local newspaper as the "dumbest runner ever".

On all set-plays all players must be onside until the ball is free from the set-play - these are scums and line-outs. Other situations (as mentioned in my post above) are starts, restarts, tap starts, 22 drop-outs etc.

On that note I am going to both the bronze final and final this weekend in Auckland! Boom! Will be interesting to see Australia take on Wales in the bronze final. They've both names their top squads possible so hopefully neither will play as if it doesn't matter. Sunday All Blacks/France will be epic.

LeeD · Oct 19, 2011

You seem to focus your thoughts and energy only to the offense side of the ball.
I seem to be focusing on the defense side, where it appears the defense is not allowed to run into the backfield behind the ball to mingle with the backs behind the offense's scrum.
On that note, have fun and don't forget the war paint and the Tonga chants.

Bobby Jr · Oct 19, 2011

LeeD said:
You seem to focus your thoughts and energy only to the offense side of the ball.
I seem to be focusing on the defense side, where it appears the defense is not allowed to run into the backfield behind the ball to mingle with the backs behind the offense's scrum.

Of course. As I said above everyone must be behind the ball from their own perspective on set-pieces - the scrum is a set-piece so this applies and doesn't end until the scrum is over - which is deemed to have happened when the ball is touched by the hands of the half-back/flanker (technically anyone on the team who won the scrum).

When you run backfield - in rugby it means you're going towards the line you're defending (i.e. retreating). If you run around behind onto the opponents side of a scrum, as you say, amongst their backs, that is running upfield or towards the line you're attacking.

LeeD · Oct 20, 2011

And therein lies the answer.
American football, pass rushers run into the backfield, oftentimes behind the ball.
In rugby, no defenseman runs into the backfield, so the backfield is open and clear for laterals, and no defensemen is there to blindside the runner.

Dave M · Oct 20, 2011

If you want to see big hits check you tube for a guy called Brian Lima, FIji international (I think it was Fiji) nicknamed the chiropractor.

Bobby Jr · Oct 20, 2011

About to jump in a taxi to go to the Wales vs Australia bronze final match.

Go Wales!

origmarm · Oct 21, 2011

Bobby Jr said:
About to jump in a taxi to go to the Wales vs Australia bronze final match.

Go Wales!

Jealous!! That's going to be a better match than the final I think.

origmarm · Oct 21, 2011

It might be of interest to some of you that I have one international rugby cap

.

I played an under 21s exhibition match for Luxembourg against Western Samoa in the early 90s (I believe 94 but I could be wrong). We got absolutely battered, something like 70something - 5! I also broke two of my fingers and dislocated my shoulder

I think I was one of about 40 eligible people in the country at the time that played rugby! The rest were all French

Bobby Jr · Oct 23, 2011

Just got home from the final. Wow, what an epically close finish. The match showed what a difference it makes when both teams have skilled and experienced forward packs and the balls to retain possession when they get it. Australia last week showed the opposite. Kudos to France for playing their A-game as they often do when painted as no-hopers.

A great win for the All Blacks and a good sign-off for a number of players who're exiting the fold after this - including the legendary Brad Thorn who, at age 36, is off to Japan with his family to play club rugby. What a nightmare it would be for any player, let alone a provincial team player to be Thorn's opposite number. The guy is a beast!

Mills Muliaina is off to play in Europe. He was out injured for the last two matches here but is one of the greatest fullbacks in all of rugby union history.

Magic of tennis · Oct 23, 2011

pushing_wins said:
as we do in football and ice hockey. two players going at full speed at each other, one player caught with his head down and has to be taken out on a stretcher.

in rugby, i've noticed it's more pushing and wrestling. the open field hits are rather mild.

is that because of the rules of the game? or are the players holding back on the open field hits?

All I can see is goodlooking guys in rugby lol

why do we not see big open field hits in rugby?

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