U of Memphis tennis = U of Ireland tennis??

P

PaulC

Professional
floridatennisdude said:
1) Yes, they deserve a chance. But, they have to be good enough. If they aren't good enough they'll get beat out. That's life.
2) No, schools operate athletics to make money...not my decision, but a fact of life

I'm not in favor of giving anyone a competitive advantage that isn't earned. This me, me, me, me generation looking for handouts is creating a lot of lost souls that think runner up and consolation prizes are good enough. Not everyone should get a trophy.
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Sometimes it's perception, not real competition.

The perception that the international kid is always better. But just like my USC example: That walk-on, actually the other walk-on too are just as good, and in fact are being competitve with the international kids during internal plays.

But then the coaches didn't realize that walk-on was that good until after they have to sit the foreign kid, but it was already the walk-ons final year.

Well, you may still say: hey: The foreign kid managed to win the eye-candy contest, so he deserve his scholarship anyway :)
 
B

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
If funding foreign scholarships via state taxes (no matter how convoluted the path from taxpayer to athlete), is somehow a misuse of taxpayer funds or otherwise "illegal" based on any particular state's statutes and state constitution, then I'd have to assume that there has been and/or will be litigation.

Seriously, in our sue-for-everything society, the issue would/will undoubtedly come up in a lawsuit if there is actually anything illegal going on, and not simply a situation of "I want American kids to have more opportunities" sentiments.
 
P

PaulC

Professional
Misterbill said:
First you said it was a misuse of state taxpayers' money for State schools to give athletic scholarships to foreigners. Then when it was pointed out that this rationale would limit scholys granted to American out-of-staters, you dropped the tax argument and started saying it's about national pride.
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See previous post. I don't need to drop the "Fair and reasonable use of state tax" argument, it happened before and actually worked in CA regarding academic scholarships. New or change of law may not be resulted, but if they can forward memos to all the ADs, it will be suffice to get them to get a hold of the situation.

Misterbill said:
But now you are saying, again, "state college scholarships" should be limited? So this means you are ok with private schools giving scholys to foreigners?
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No, But if NCAA can't do anything, there's nothing we can do against a private institution. Enlighten me if you have better suggestions.

Misterbill said:
This would definitely take the NCAA out of the picture, because it is unrealistic to think they would give even two seconds of thought to such an idea. You are back to petitioning Rick Perry and Bill Haslam and other governors and state legislatures. (USC would be sitting pretty under your proposal as I understand it)
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Misterbill said:
I am very happy the State college that gave my kid a tennis scholy has foreigners and has told us they will continue to try to recruit foreigners. My kid needs to compete with and against the best available competition. And I think it will be so valuable educationally and culturally for my kid to have international teammates.

This was a selling point for my kid's acceptance of the offer from this school over other schools that had just domestic or regional players.

Our family is American
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Again, it's NOT the existence of international players that is the problem, it's the NUMBER or PERCENTAGE that is the problem here. I myself don't mind a few foreign kids in the athletic teams, but you SHOULD NOT have the 3 quarter+ of your team with international players.

A DIGRESSION: One of my Chinese friend just commented that: Due to the proliferation of ex-Chinese ping-pong national team players flooded some euro countries, the International table tennis ferderation change their rules to NOT allowing player after the age of 21 who switch nationality to play for a country in Olympics or World Championship.

This is to preserve the chances and resources to develop native young players.

You can call that protectionism, nationalism, intervention of free market, fear of competiton etc etc etc.

Bottom line: ITTF has the gut to stand up against all the legal challenges and make it work, and the native players appauded it.

Hope somehow NCAA finally figure a way to handle this... as I do admit picking on state colleges alone is unfair, but someone have to start doing something somehwhere.

Status quo is not an acceptable situation either.

Even the BCS will now got a plus 1 playoff , so any system can be treaked if the NCAA is determined enough to fix the status quo.
(OK, although NCAA is not involved in BCS, you get the point)
 
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Misterbill

Semi-Pro
PaulC said:
Enlighten me if you have better suggestions.
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It would be patronizing and condescending for me to claim I am enlightening anyone on the Board, especially sensing a hint of false modesty in the invitation.

I just guess "national pride" is a relative thing. Some derive national pride from state colleges and universities having a greater proportion of American tennis players.

Others derive national pride from being a citizen of a country that does not discriminate based on nationality and offers opportunity based on merit.

To each his own.
 
F

floridatennisdude

Hall of Fame
Paul, you are fighting a 1 on 6 battle here with a couple folks on the fence. Even the notorious foreign athlete hater tennishacker hasnt chimed in much.

Kudos for sticking to your guns, but I've had enough talking to a brick wall for for one thread. I'll wait for the next one to come up. Should be in a week or 2.
 
woodrow1029

woodrow1029

Hall of Fame
floridatennisdude said:
Paul, you are fighting a 1 on 6 battle here with a couple folks on the fence. Even the notorious foreign athlete hater tennishacker hasnt chimed in much.

Kudos for sticking to your guns, but I've had enough talking to a brick wall for for one thread. I'll wait for the next one to come up. Should be in a week or 2.
Click to expand...

This forum needs a "LIKE" button for posts like this one^^ :)
 
P

PaulC

Professional
bluetrain4 said:
If funding foreign scholarships via state taxes (no matter how convoluted the path from taxpayer to athlete), is somehow a misuse of taxpayer funds or otherwise "illegal" based on any particular state's statutes and state constitution, then I'd have to assume that there has been and/or will be litigation.

Seriously, in our sue-for-everything society, the issue would/will undoubtedly come up in a lawsuit if there is actually anything illegal going on, and not simply a situation of "I want American kids to have more opportunities" sentiments.
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Unfortunately, legality is the exact challenge that NCAA is fearing it'll get into discrimination lawsuits it faced in the 70's against those track teams again. :(

So I guess the only thing that can be done at this point is stirring such "sentiment" from the legislative members, and see if the ADs get some memos and exercise some self-constraint :)
 
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PaulC

Professional
floridatennisdude said:
Paul, you are fighting a 1 on 6 battle here with a couple folks on the fence. Even the notorious foreign athlete hater tennishacker hasnt chimed in much.

Kudos for sticking to your guns, but I've had enough talking to a brick wall for for one thread. I'll wait for the next one to come up. Should be in a week or 2.
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Thank you for agreeing to disagree in a civil manner, unlike our political parties :)

You did not speak to a brick wall, I do hear you clear and loud regarding fair competition concerns, and per responded by my personal experience.

Big Kudos back to you man!
 
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PaulC

Professional
woodrow1029 said:
This forum needs a "LIKE" button for posts like this one^^ :)
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Hehehehe!

If nothing else, I hope this can actually set an example of "how to agree to disgree" in a civil manner.

Think.... John Adams and Thomas Jefferson :)
 
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P

PaulC

Professional
Misterbill said:
It would be patronizing and condescending for me to claim I am enlightening anyone on the Board, especially sensing a hint of false modesty in the invitation.

I just guess "national pride" is a relative thing. Some derive national pride from state colleges and universities having a greater proportion of American tennis players.

Others derive national pride from being a citizen of a country that does not discriminate based on nationality and offers opportunity based on merit.

To each his own.
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Yeah... It goes quite a bit to the national pride side.

But then I ask myself: if every college, whether state or private, will have enough money AND allowed to offer UNLIMITED scholarships to both local and international players.

Would I be even talking about this with you folks?

Probably not.

So I would say: for me, it's still a *Resource Allocation* issue more than a national pride one, in a significantly Limited Resource situation, given they only got 4.5 each school nowadays.

Also, you ALREADY enlightened me by providing the ITF info already. :)
 
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A

andfor

Legend
PaulC said:
Easy Man.

It's not against Memphis alone. It's not even just against the great Tennessee state.

It's against ALL state schools that overstocked international players.

Just as an earlier response to my post pointed out that both the USTA and ITA have already been alerted of the situation by several respected coaches, but can't do anything by themselves alone.

-- Do they all have ax to grind against Memphis? I don't believe so :)

I honestly do not have any ax to grind except for the care of our own American kids who badly need scholarship money in such tough economy.

I myself had tutored a few former local walk-ons or reserves while in grad school.

My honest opinion is that they are nearly as good as the international recruits, if not as good or better.

They all deserve a scholarship, but didn't get one.

(Evidences are that in a few matches, they have to sit the international kid who was in a bad streak and start the walk-ons.)

I don't know whether there are people here who're old enough to remember a guy from USC in the 90's who spend his entire college career as a walk-on, but won serveral cruical matches for the team toward winning the championship, but never got any scholarship money?

He later become a top 100 doubles player in ATP, coached a top 10 WTA player, and then became the head coach of a Div I team in SEC in the mid 2000's.

He deserved a scholarship every single bit but didn't get one.

Back to the school I am talking about, it did not stock more than 2 international players though, and I believe it still does not, and is a top 10 team year in a year out, albeit recently having hard time recruit against conference rivals.

They made up the disdvantage with superb player-development skills by their great assistant coaches.

It may take longer time and more efforts for them, but Isn't that better for our American kids than "buying" our way in like the pro teams in the long run?

-- Isn't that what our colleges are supposed to do: develop our own kids?

While you're excited for your Tigers athletic team's success. I'd urge you to calm down for a second and give your thought to our local kids who got beat out by the international recruits just for a few seconds...

And ask yourself:

1. Do OUR kids deserve a chance (if not a better chance)?
2. Does national pride thump school pride?

Peace and God bless America
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Who is the benchwarmer from USC that then made the ATP top 100 in doubles?

Look I'm not going to get into what's been discussed ad nauseam. The basic problem in college tennis is that there is actually more tennis scholarships and non-scholarship (see D III) opportunities across all levels of play than American tennis players willing to get them. Combine that with many accomplished American junior players having a pre-dispossession to attend the biggest and best schools and the problem snowballs.

Schools like Memphis, Middle Tenn, TN Tech, Austin Peay, UT Martin, UT Chatt and East Tenn. have a very hard time getting 3 and 4 star players interested in playing tennis there, let alone getting the prized 5 star and Blue Chips that in the area are sucked up by traditional powerhouses UT Knox, Vandy, Kentucky, Arkansas and Alabama.

There are so many places to play college tennis, on scholarship. Have you seen and read this? http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/USTA_Intl_SA_FAQ_FINAL_CLEAN.pdf And those are just DI stats. Don't forget scholarship money is available at the DII, NAIA and JUCO levels and Americans can go there to play tennis as well.

No American is getting left out of college tennis. Getting left out at their singular school of choice (insert BCS school name here) or playing at a school over their head? Yes that's happening. However, don't blame the internationals for those who choose to limit their college choice options, poor decision making on where they go to school and try to play tennis or just plane not being good enough at where they think they are entitled to play.
 
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Tennishacker

Professional
floridatennisdude said:
Paul, you are fighting a 1 on 6 battle here with a couple folks on the fence. Even the notorious foreign athlete hater tennishacker hasnt chimed in much.

Kudos for sticking to your guns, but I've had enough talking to a brick wall for for one thread. I'll wait for the next one to come up. Should be in a week or 2.
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Such a low blow, make that 2 in 6 battle

Let me clarify my stance on foreign players. (for the 100th time) I do not hate foreign players, they are some of the best kids in college.

Teams that field 50% to 100% (yes there are teams that have 100%) foreigners, I have a problem with.
I am for growing the game in America, but when American kids are denied spots by a foreigner, that means that American kids will probably have their kid not play tennis, but some other sports, thus killing the sport.

That is the one and only reason I'm for LIMITING foreign players.
 
H

hound 109

Semi-Pro
Clemson_tennis said:
....So the fact that they are from Ireland lessens your opinion of them? I know a lot of the players that do come over from other countries to the US end up staying in the US and living here because they like it.
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I don't get this logic.

If i don't want to give a guy from Ireland a scholarship....then that means i don't like him? Since when does 1+1 = 3.

My next door neighbor has a smart kid.....smarter than my kid. But I'll pay for my kid's college education.....probably won't give a dime to the nice, smart next door neighbor's kid for her education.

I have no problem with some Irish guy or girl moving to the US & staying here "because they like it". The more the merrier. What's that.....?.....I'm expected to pay for the move & his room & board.....& i'm expected to LIKE it? (or i'm a xenophobe?)
 
A

andfor

Legend
Tennishacker said:
Such a low blow, make that 2 in 6 battle

Let me clarify my stance on foreign players. (for the 100th time) I do not hate foreign players, they are some of the best kids in college.

Teams that field 50% to 100% (yes there are teams that have 100%) foreigners, I have a problem with.
I am for growing the game in America, but when American kids are denied spots by a foreigner, that means that American kids will probably have their kid not play tennis, but some other sports, thus killing the sport.

That is the one and only reason I'm for LIMITING foreign players.
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This is one of my favorite so called problems with internationals playing college tennis, that "American kids are denied spots by a foreigner". But as many years as I've debated this phenomena I have never seen one single solitary example. Not one.

Read em and weep http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/USTA_Intl_SA_FAQ_FINAL_CLEAN.pdf
 
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hound 109

Semi-Pro
PaulC said:
Interesting counter-argument! Then again, we can always counter-counter-argue that at least the money are still spent mostly on US citizens.

Hey, we are still the "United" states helping out each other, right? :)

-- BTW, I must clarify that I'm not against "Euro imports" per se, I'm just wondering why there is no limit to the percentage of players allowed.
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I also wonder why there is no limit.
 
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hound 109

Semi-Pro
Misterbill said:
I think your state senators will not be in office very long if they vote to ban/limit athletic scholarships for persons from out-of-state.

Can't prove it, but I believe fat cat donors to state college athletic programs are core political contributors as well.

I wonder if a state senator who proposes to make State U less competitive in athletics compared to other colleges.....by limiting athletic scholarships to in-state kids....would be getting many checks from fat cat athletic department donors
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Fat cat donors care about 300 lb. offensive guards & defensive backs who can do a 4.4 40. If a State U's men's tennis team was dumped (for any one of a 1/2 dozen reasons), not too many folks would care (especially the fat cat donors).
 
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hound 109

Semi-Pro
PaulC said:
No, I won't propose limiting scholarships to all out-of-state players, just non-US citizens. Period.

Example: Memphis hoop is doing pretty well without those crazy tall Euro centers :)

If EVERYBODY is not allowed more than 2 or 3 international players, this will actually level the play field a bit for those not-so-rich state schools who can't afford that many of these scholarships.

I am pretty certain that there are NOT many "fat-cat donors" who care about their college tennis programs AND wants to keep international players THAT much that will get pissed off by this - Not even for Memphis, I checked :)

Football maybe, but we got no Euro football players, Aussie kickers are good but are really not necessities :)
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Stop being so logical.....it upsets the posters who make a living getting 21 y/o freshmen Euro's a tennis scholarship.
 
T

Tennishacker

Professional
andfor said:
In this world I have facts on my side. You my friend live in your own little world of conjecture which your are trying to pass of as fact.
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You can make a blanketed statement that, "none, not even one American kid was denied a spot on a college team because of a foreign player"?

What facts do you have to support that statement?
 
H

hound 109

Semi-Pro
Clemson_tennis said:
These are bad arguments. There are tons and tons of young kids in the USA who play basketball and football. By far the top nation in each sport. The USA is probably the 3rd biggest tennis nation right now(behind Spain and France) but there are tons of other countries who are not far behind.

I actually feel good that so many non-Americans want to come here. They know and understand how good our college system is. I have some personal interaction with the Clemson team and the Madens often talk about how good the US college tennis system is. Meza and Wibowo aren't going back to their countries after college they will stay in the USA to work.
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They want to come here because their country's universities don't have tennis teams or tennis scholarships. They come here because unlike US kids......they can take a year off & play & compete & then come play college tennis in the US as a 20-21 y/o freshman.
 
A

andfor

Legend
hound 109 said:
Stop being so logical.....it upsets the posters who make a living getting 21 y/o freshmen Euro's a tennis scholarship.
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Don't fall for this garbage. Read NCAA Bylaw #14.2.3.2. also ensures that tennis student-athletes must begin full time collegiate enrollment before their twentieth birthday.

Check out these fine internationals on the Uof M Basketball team.
http://www.gotigersgo.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/garcia_angel00.html
http://www.gotigersgo.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/tsafack_hippolyte00.html

It's getting good now.
 
A

andfor

Legend
hound 109 said:
They want to come here because their country's universities don't have tennis teams or tennis scholarships. They come here because unlike US kids......they can take a year off & play & compete & then come play college tennis in the US as a 20-21 y/o freshman.
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If they do they lose a year of elegibility. American kids can do the same thing.
 
C

Clemson_tennis

Legend
hound 109 said:
They want to come here because their country's universities don't have tennis teams or tennis scholarships. They come here because unlike US kids......they can take a year off & play & compete & then come play college tennis in the US as a 20-21 y/o freshman.
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are facts just optional to you?
 
A

andfor

Legend
Tennishacker said:
You can make a blanketed statement that, "none, not even one American kid was denied a spot on a college team because of a foreign player"?

What facts do you have to support that statement?
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No you are saying "American kids are denied spots by a forigner". Those are your words. Name a kid who was denied a roster spot by a foreigner.
 
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hound 109

Semi-Pro
andfor said:
...... To my fellow posters and international student athlete supporters, thanks.

If one is an international student athlete supporter, is it a goal for 100% of US tennis scholarships to go to non-americans. Or is there another percentage that is the optimum number?

The poster must have an underlying ax to grind. You will never get any traction with your attempt to change the system based on your arguments. Overall just a pathetic post.
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Axe to grind? Pathetic?

The OP merely sees something that is broke & wonders why no one bothers to fix it. No axe & certainly not pathetic.
 
A

andfor

Legend
hound 109 said:
Axe to grind? Pathetic?

The OP merely sees something that is broke & wonders why no one bothers to fix it. No axe & certainly not pathetic.
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Maybe I was wrong about the axe. However the rest of what's being posted here by those against internationals is full of misinformation. Pathetic, yes go back and read how he framed up his post.

American tennis is what needs to be fixed, as in we need more and better juniors prepared and wanting to play college tennis.

I'm not for dumbing down the game because someone pratices more and has more talent than my kid be they from or not from this country.

You read this? http://assets.usta.com/assets/1/15/USTA_Intl_SA_FAQ_FINAL_CLEAN.pdf
 
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hound 109

Semi-Pro
floridatennisdude said:
....2) No, schools operate athletics to make money...not my decision, but a fact of life.

Then they should dump all sports except Football & Basketball.

I'm not in favor of giving anyone a competitive advantage that isn't earned.

Then make all incoming freshman no older than 18 years & 11 months.

This me, me, me, me generation looking for handouts is creating a lot of lost souls that think runner up and consolation prizes are good enough.

Agreed. The me, me, me euro college players end up finishing college & feeding balls at second rate academies.

Not everyone should get a trophy.
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Jeez dude.....no competive tennis player over the age of 10 receives a trophy. (unless it's a gold ball). How long has it been since you've been around Junior tennis?
 
H

hound 109

Semi-Pro
Tennishacker said:
Such a low blow, make that 2 in 6 battle

Let me clarify my stance on foreign players. (for the 100th time) I do not hate foreign players, they are some of the best kids in college.

Teams that field 50% to 100% (yes there are teams that have 100%) foreigners, I have a problem with.
I am for growing the game in America, but when American kids are denied spots by a foreigner, that means that American kids will probably have their kid not play tennis, but some other sports, thus killing the sport.

That is the one and only reason I'm for LIMITING foreign players.
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Agree with every word of this post.
 
H

hound 109

Semi-Pro
andfor said:
Don't fall for this garbage. Read NCAA Bylaw #14.2.3.2. also ensures that tennis student-athletes must begin full time collegiate enrollment before their twentieth birthday.

It's getting good now.
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Post it & i'll read it.

When does the bylaw go into effect?

This year's crop of freshmen must not have been affected (lots of freshmen past 20).....so calling my post "garbage" as opposed to just disagreeing with it & offering facts....has got to make readers wonder why you protest so provocatively.
 
K

klu375

Semi-Pro
Misterbill said:
It would be patronizing and condescending for me to claim I am enlightening anyone on the Board, especially sensing a hint of false modesty in the invitation.

I just guess "national pride" is a relative thing. Some derive national pride from state colleges and universities having a greater proportion of American tennis players.

Others derive national pride from being a citizen of a country that does not discriminate based on nationality and offers opportunity based on merit.

To each his own.
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It seems you should start looking to move to some uninhabited island because every country on Earth including US of A discriminate based on nationality. Here is a link to a random job search http://bit.ly/IClGM3. Just 1663 positions listing US Citizenship/GC as a requirement.
And here is the link to Kalamazoo:
http://tennislink.usta.com/TOURNAMENTS/TournamentHome_New/Tournament.aspx?T=107531
What does it say:
This event is restricted to the following Jr. players: U.S. Citizens; Permanent Resident Aliens; Diplomats, Refugees/Asylees; CTA and Canadian Residents of BC. Refer to USTA Regulation III.A.2a.

So USTA can discriminate based on Citizenship but NCAA cannot?
Of course they can, they run college sport and can set up rules the way they want. Have you heard about lawsuits against USTA regarding Citizenship rules? I have not.
 
A

andfor

Legend
hound 109 said:
Post it & i'll read it.

When does the bylaw go into effect?

This year's crop of freshmen must not have been affected (lots of freshmen past 20).....so calling my post "garbage" as opposed to just disagreeing with it & offering facts....has got to make readers wonder why you protest so provocatively.
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http://www.itatennis.com/Assets/ita_assets/pdf/NCAA+Update+Dec+07.pdf This was printed in 2007. You might want to take time to read and understand the rules before you try to debate them.

It's been explained over and over that if you start college at age 20 or 21 you likely do not have 4 full years of eligibility left to play DI tennis. Athletically this makes you not a freshman.
 
M

Misterbill

Semi-Pro
klu375 said:
It seems you should start looking to move to some uninhabited island because every country on Earth including US of A discriminate based on nationality. Here is a link to a random job search http://bit.ly/IClGM3. Just 1663 positions listing US Citizenship/GC as a requirement.
And here is the link to Kalamazoo:
http://tennislink.usta.com/TOURNAMENTS/TournamentHome_New/Tournament.aspx?T=107531
What does it say:
This event is restricted to the following Jr. players: U.S. Citizens; Permanent Resident Aliens; Diplomats, Refugees/Asylees; CTA and Canadian Residents of BC. Refer to USTA Regulation III.A.2a.

So USTA can discriminate based on Citizenship but NCAA cannot?
Of course they can, they run college sport and can set up rules the way they want. Have you heard about lawsuits against USTA regarding Citizenship rules? I have not.
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Yaaaawn.

Yes there are laws relating to national security and safety that give preferences to citizens over non-citizens. Good one.

NCAA believes a limitation on scholarships to non-US passport holders would violate US anti-discrimination laws. You've seen the link.

Yes, NCAA could try to set up the rules the way they want. Or try to get the relevant laws changed.

But pols like Rick Perry and Bill Haslam............not to mention the Democratic governors/legislators........do not agree with you.

In fact, what faction of the sports/political world........besides a few tennis parents...........does agree with you? Not a challenge, a sincere question.
 
A

andfor

Legend
klu375 said:
It seems you should start looking to move to some uninhabited island because every country on Earth including US of A discriminate based on nationality. Here is a link to a random job search http://bit.ly/IClGM3. Just 1663 positions listing US Citizenship/GC as a requirement.
And here is the link to Kalamazoo:
http://tennislink.usta.com/TOURNAMENTS/TournamentHome_New/Tournament.aspx?T=107531
What does it say:
This event is restricted to the following Jr. players: U.S. Citizens; Permanent Resident Aliens; Diplomats, Refugees/Asylees; CTA and Canadian Residents of BC. Refer to USTA Regulation III.A.2a.

So USTA can discriminate based on Citizenship but NCAA cannot?
Of course they can, they run college sport and can set up rules the way they want. Have you heard about lawsuits against USTA regarding Citizenship rules? I have not.
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Your argument a poor one. Your tennis example is a one off national championship. Start a lawsuit with your premise and let us know how far you get Clarence.
 
K

klu375

Semi-Pro
Misterbill said:
Yaaaawn.

Yes there are laws relating to national security and safety that give preferences to citizens over non-citizens. Good one.

NCAA believes a limitation on scholarships to non-US passport holders would violate US anti-discrimination laws. You've seen the link.

Yes, NCAA could try to set up the rules the way they want. Or try to get the relevant laws changed.

But pols like Rick Perry and Bill Haslam............not to mention the Democratic governors/legislators........do not agree with you.

In fact, what faction of the sports/political world........besides a few tennis parents...........does agree with you? Not a challenge, a sincere question.
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I can give you my sincere answer. I really do not care about sports/political world. The closest college to my house is a private D1 school. It is pretty expensive mid-level school playing in a weaker conference. Their top girls are foreigners, the bottom are local 2-3 stars. I do not think that these girls could attend this school if not for tennis scholarship (assumption based on their zip codes). I know how they play - they are not very good - but I am happy for them. Their #1 had WTA ranking, my daughter hit with her and said that she was amazing at the net and a very nice girl. So their coach somehow maintains a reasonable balance and I think it is a right thing to do. He could probably import more foreign players - supposedly he is a very good recruiter.
 
M

Misterbill

Semi-Pro
klu375 said:
I can give you my sincere answer. I really do not care about sports/political world. The closest college to my house is a private D1 school. It is pretty expensive mid-level school playing in a weaker conference. Their top girls are foreigners, the bottom are local 2-3 stars. I do not think that these girls could attend this school if not for tennis scholarship (assumption based on their zip codes). I know how they play - they are not very good - but I am happy for them. Their #1 had WTA ranking, my daughter hit with her and said that she was amazing at the net and a very nice girl. So their coach somehow maintains a reasonable balance and I think it is a right thing to do. He could probably import more foreign players - supposedly he is a very good recruiter.
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That's a cool story. No prob with that.

You say you do not care about the sports/political world. That's cool. Your stated frame of reference is a private D1 school closest to your house. That's fine too. If that sounds condescending, it is not meant that way. I really mean it.

I respect your frame of reference. And I am sure you can respect the frame of reference of posters who do care about.....and are addressing themselves to .......the larger sports/political world.

I can empathize with the local disappointment of a player who did not get a scholy that ultimately went to an out-of-stater/foreigner. In the larger sports/political world, some other posters are saying that's the way the competitive global world now works.

I can hold those two thoughts in my head at the same time and I expect lots of other people can too
 
A

andfor

Legend
tball2day said:
andfor, hound109 is correct. There are still several foreign freshman that are 20+. The same rules have not applied to American and foreign players. There have been work arounds on those rules all along. They are trying to fix that in August 2012 when new regulations go into effect. However, many are doubtful they can manage and track the many educational systems around the world. ("Who me, we start high school at 17 and finish at 21" etc....)

I actually have no prob with foreign players and don't have an ax to grind, but guys, you have had this wrong so many times. And don't ask people to name them, you can go to rosters, most give their ages and birthdays, and you will also find some schools with heavy foreign rosters conveniently do not provide that info.

When your 17-18 year old is competing for a spot with 20-21 year olds, yes it impacts scholarships, playing time, and the schools they choose. Maybe some of these posters are dealing with it firsthand, why so quick to assume they are wrong and accuse them of a bias against foreigners? They are more likely biased against an unfair system, not the person.

I am guessing those that think there aren't 20 year old freshman to this day do not have college players being recruited or in play.

It is suppose to be changing, but it hasn't yet.
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Far and away the exception not the norm. This has been discussed.
 
K

klu375

Semi-Pro
andfor said:
Your argument a poor one. Your tennis example is a one off national championship. Start a lawsuit with your premise and let us know how far you get Clarence.
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What is one off here? These rules apply to every junior tournament that awards National ranking points - probably over 1500 tourneys per year. The majority of them are Sectionals/Designated that also have geographic limitations. We have foreign nationals residing in our section and they cannot play Designated tournaments. I thought you know the rules but I guess you do not as you do not have a tennis playing junior.
 
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J

JLyon

Hall of Fame
klu375 said:
What is one off here? These rules apply to every junior tournament that awards National ranking points - probably over 1500 tourneys per year. The majority of them are Sectionals/Designated that also have geographic limitations. We have foreign nationals residing in our section and they cannot play Designated tournaments. I though you know the rules but I guess you do not as you do not have a tennis playing junior.
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So you keep making ASSumptions. He does have a high ranked junior, but you still refuse to let facts get in your way.
His point is stop bagging on the international players who will go almost anywhere while many "spoil-brat" Americans will not go to the smaller schools to play where a coach would love to have them. Even at Memphis which is now Top 50, few 4*-5* players will even look at them, colleges do not hire coaches to just bring in players just to field a team. They get paid to win and their job depends on Wins not accommodating some entitled child looking for a full ride while not working and not being on par with other players who do not feel entitled but grateful for a chance to keep playing.
 
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