Post shoe measurements. Find out how low to the ground shoes are

N

newyorkstadium

Professional
Ordered from lowest to highest:

New Balance Minimus 60 - Stack Height: 16mm (Heel); 10mm (Forefoot)

Babolat Jet mach 2 - Stack Height: 20mm (Heel); 14mm (Forefoot) 2.0

Wilson NGX- Stack Height: 21mm (Heel); 12mm (Forefoot)

Head Sprint Pro: Stack Height: 22mm (Heel); 13mm (Forefoot)

Adidas Ubersonic 4 - Stack Height: 23mm (Heel); 10mm (Forefoot)

Nike Air Zoom prestige - 2.3, 1.1 Stack Height: 23mm (Heel); 12mm (Forefoot)

Adidas Ubersonic 3 - Stack Height: 23mm (Heel); 12mm (Forefoot)

Wilson Rush Pro- Stack Height: 24mm (Heel); 13mm (Forefoot)

Adidas Ubersonic 2 - Stack Height: 24mm (Heel); 12mm (Forefoot)

Joma T.ace pro 100 - Stack Height: 24mm (Heel); 10mm (Forefoot)

Adidas Sole court boost - Stack Height: 24mm (Heel); 10mm (Forefoot)

Nike Zoom Cage 2 - Stack Height: 24mm (Heel); mm 17(Forefoot)

Adidas Barricade 7- Stack Height: 25mm (Heel); 15mm (Forefoot)

New Balance Fresh Foam LAV - Stack Height: 25mm (Heel); 12mm (Forefoot)

Air zoom vapor pro - Stack Height: 25mm (Heel); 15mm (Forefoot)

Nike Vapor x - Stack Height: 25mm (Heel); 15mm (Forefoot)

Air Zoom Vapor X Air Max 95 - Stack Height: 25mm (Heel); 15mm (Forefoot)

Asics Solution Speed ff2 - Stack Height: 25mm (Heel); 15mm (Forefoot)

Asics Solution Speed ff1 - Stack Height: 25mm (Heel); 15mm (Forefoot)

Lotto mirage 100 - Stack Height: 25mm (Heel); 15mm (Forefoot)

Joma Pro Roland- Stack Height: 25mm (Heel); 14.5mm (Forefoot)

Adidas adizero CC Feather II Stack Height: 26mm (Heel); 15mm (Forefoot)

Fila axilus 2 - Stack Height: 26mm (Heel); 13mm (Forefoot)

Nike Vapor Advantage Stack Height: 26mm (Heel); 12mm (Forefoot)

Nike Lunar Ballistec Stack Height: 26mm (Heel); 19mm (Forefoot)

Nike Zoom Vapor 9.5 Tour Stack Height: 27mm (Heel); 15mm (Forefoot)

Nike Zoom cage 4 - Stack Height: 27mm (Heel); 13mm (Forefoot)

Diadora Blueshield 4 ag - Stack Height: 27mm (Heel); 18mm (Forefoot)

Nike Vapor 9 Stack Height: 28mm (Heel); 15mm (Forefoot)

K-Swiss ultrashot 3 - Stack Height: 28mm (Heel); 15mm (Forefoot)

Nike zoom cage 3 - Stack Height: 29mm (Heel); 16mm (Forefoot)

Nike court react vapor nxt - Stack Height: 29mm (Heel); 19mm (Forefoot)

Lotto Raptor Ultra IV Stack Height: 30mm (Heel); 17mm (Forefoot)

New Balance 1296- Stack Height: 30mm (Heel); 15mm (Forefoot)

New Balance 996- Stack Height: 32mm (Heel); 16mm (Forefoot)

Apparatus.

Vernier Caliper $19 Instructions

Shoes must have very little usage, as shoes lose cushion over time. All measurements are taken with the insole removed.
 
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WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
This is interesting, but I'm already suspicious of your measurements. What exactly are you measuring?

Usually, when someone measures how low to the ground a shoe is, they're measuring the from the ground to where the foot sits. I don't know of any tennis shoe that has the human heel sitting 3.45mm off of the ground. These measurements are best done with a caliper that measures the thickness of the outsole, the midesole, and insole so that you can tell the "stack" height.

Are you measuring some sort of curve of the outsole when a foot isn't in the shoe flattening it out?
 
WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
newyorkstadium said:
Edited, mean't cm. I'm measuring the height from insole to heel.

To measure, I stuck a ruler inside the shoe and measured from the insole to the top of the fabric. I then used this measurement on the outside, and the remainder was the heel height.

If this doesn't make sense I will put up a picture tutorial.
Click to expand...

OK, that makes a lot more sense!:)

Sounds like you came up with a quick-and-dirty way to get a fairly accurate measurement. I think it is useful information. I'll measure some of my shoes the same way and see what we get.

I'd also like to see a similar measurement for the forefoot, but the toe box gets in the way.
 
WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
newyorkstadium said:
Yes, agreed.
Click to expand...

I'm just having difficulty eyeballing the difference. I think that I need something square to actually physically touch the upper so that my measurements are slightly more accurate.

My first estimate is for a new

Yonex SHT-304 - 3.4cm

Used Prince Viper VI - 3.2cm
 
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N

newyorkstadium

Professional
Apparatus
Bar Clamp. Must be this type, not this.
Duct Tape
Plank of Wood
Vernier/Dial Caliper. Must come with a depth rod like this.

Step 1 - http://s1298.beta.photobucket.com/u...3-02-18172001_zpsd38fa487.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

Ensure the depth rod on the caliper is as far down as it can go. Tape the top of the caliper to the bottom of the plank.

Step 2 - http://s1298.beta.photobucket.com/u...3-02-18171902_zpse8de9d74.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
Clamp the plank of wood to the table, so that the depth rod touches the floor. Place a heavy book on the bar clamp to secure it. Now read the measurements on the caliper.

Step 3 - Place the shoe underneath the rod. Then move the rod down, until it touches the insole of the shoe. Re-measure the caliper.
 
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N

newyorkstadium

Professional
I want shoes that enable me to deal better with low slices and reduce injury risk. Plus, I just prefer the feel of low to the ground shoes
 
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WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
newyorkstadium said:
I'm already thinking of getting the gel game 3, on the back of this thread. I want shoes that enable me to deal better with low slices (i'm 6'4). Plus, I just prefer the feel of low to the ground shoes
Click to expand...

I don't know that they'll help your slice, but my general feeling is that the lower to the ground a shoe is, other things equal, the better because of increased stability. If you think about the extremes, this is definitely true. Are you more stable barefoot or walking on platform shoes or in high heels?

There's also a mistaken belief that more cushioning is superior to less. I've found that in walking, a stiffer shoe with less cushioning actually makes walking easier because your foot compresses material in a soft shoe and dissipates energy. Especially for performance, more cushioning is probably worse than less.

The Gel Game series is low to ground. I measured an old used pair of Gel Game (don't know which #?) and it seems to be 2.8cm of heel stack.

It would be nice if we could see some measurements form the Nike shoes which seem to be so popular.
 
B

banter

Semi-Pro
My testing was not reliable, but I tested multiple times to find the most consistent result.

NB 851 - 2.1 cm
Prince T9 - 2.4 cm
ASICS GR 3 - 3.1 cm
 
WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
newyorkstadium said:
Added some more. Gonna re-measure a few. They were done in a shop, with staff watching, so I rushed the measurement.
Click to expand...

Nike CB 4.3 - 4.2cm!

So those airbags really do stick that heel way up in the air.

It would be nice if we could get someone to measure a pair of Vapor 9s, which I'd expect to be much lower to the ground.

So far, the NB 851 seems to be the lowest to the ground. I would have purchased a pair of these already if I hadn't been concerned about toe-box width (I need a wide toe box). It would be nice to see a measurement on the NB MC 996.
 
N

newyorkstadium

Professional
Barricade team 2 is one of the shoes I need to re-measure, as is the CB 4.3. I'll take them off the list. Mc 996 is already on there.
 
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N

newyorkstadium

Professional
The vapor 9 is arriving in the post. I will measure the barricade team 2 and 2k12 properly tomorrow. I'm not sure whether to continue with this thread for a few reasons:

1) I don't want to impact the sales of shoes.

2) Shoes are discontinued all the time. Who's to say the next version of a shoe wont have a totally different heel height.

What do people think?
 
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WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
newyorkstadium said:
The vapor 9 is arriving in the post. I will measure the CB4.3, barricade team 2 and 2k12 properly tomorrow. I'm not sure whether to continue with this thread for a few reasons:

1) I don't want to impact the sales of shoes.

2) Shoes are discontinued all the time. Who's to say the next version of a shoe wont have a totally different heel height.

What do people think?
Click to expand...

Who cares about impacting the sales of shoes? The idea is to give people information about how low to the ground various shoes actually are. Lower heels are, other things equal, more stable.

As long as we list the shoe model we aren't misleading people. Actually, it would be nice if we could get TW to do these measurements for us. They post the weight of the shoe in a size 10.5 or something, why not also post the heel height using calipers?
 
B

banter

Semi-Pro
WildVolley said:
Who cares about impacting the sales of shoes? The idea is to give people information about how low to the ground various shoes actually are. Lower heels are, other things equal, more stable.

As long as we list the shoe model we aren't misleading people. Actually, it would be nice if we could get TW to do these measurements for us. They post the weight of the shoe in a size 10.5 or something, why not also post the heel height using calipers?
Click to expand...

I wish, but TW has already decided not to measure the heel height.
 
N

newyorkstadium

Professional
This thread will never be influential enough to impact sales anyway. It could impact TW sales. I assumed this was why they didn't want to measure heel drop. That and the minor time-consuming element.

I will continue taking measurements.
 
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N

newyorkstadium

Professional
Wildvolley, to measure using calipers, I think you have to cut the fabric off. This would be a waste of money from TW's perspective.
 
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N

newyorkstadium

Professional
Thanks banter. I think I'll buy a pair of them and try them out. I think their called outside spring calipers.
 
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WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
newyorkstadium said:
This thread will never be influential enough to impact sales anyway. It could impact TW sales. I assumed this was why they didn't want to measure heel drop. That and the minor time-consuming element.

I will continue taking measurements.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the link to TW's response.

I think the evidence is more that this won't influence sales much at all and would be a hassle for TW, so why do it? If the discussions on this forum are any indication, most people are happy with major brand tennis shoes and seem to be primarily concerned about aesthetics. Collectors who don't actually wear the shoes to play tennis seem to make a sizable fraction of purchasers, at least if we are talking Nike and Adidas.

My understanding is that the minimalist crowd in running has caused serious runners to start to notice heel stack height and drop measurements. The average person who wears running shoes probably doesn't even run, but the serious runners seem to be concerned about performance.

The whole minimalist shoe movement is causing people to reassess the belief that Nike has pushed since the 1970s that more padding and cushioning is better. At the extreme end are sprint spikes which are purposefully made to just go fast in a straight line. They tend to have almost no padding and the toe is sometimes higher than the heel because of the spike plate. Raising the heel is actually less athletic than a flat shoe, but provides an advantage in tennis in terms of cushioning if you hard plant the heel into a shot.
 
WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
newyorkstadium said:
Thanks banter. I think I'll buy a pair of them and try them out. I think their called outside spring calipers.
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking. Those big bent end calipers that would easily extend into the shoe without having to cut anything. I'm fairly certain that is what they measure running shoes with.

In some cases, I think that shoe manufacturers are now providing the information themselves. I know Altra and Newton brag about having zero drop shoes and even big name makers like New Balance are turning out running shoes with very minimal drop or zero drop.
 
WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
newyorkstadium said:
I have tried normal calipers. I could fit them on the shoe, they just compressed and squashed the fabric. I'll try outside calipers.

Running-warehouse cut the shoe to do it - http://www.runningwarehouse.com/LearningCenter/footwear.html?video=FOOT01
Click to expand...

What about something like "iGaging 8" Digital Outside Calipers"? Seems those would work well. I just searched calipers on amazon. I haven't played with these, but I'd guess that's probably what RW is using. I don't think they're destroying a pair of shoes each time they want to take measures.
 
N

newyorkstadium

Professional
An outside caliper doesn't work.

There is no way of getting the measurement, except measuring the circle, where the measurement comes out far too large.
 
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N

newyorkstadium

Professional
Strangely, measuring with the ruler method, I get different measurements when measuring the right inner fabric and the left. I wasn't placing the ruler on a ridge either. This was true of the Gel Game 3 and vapor 9 tour.
 
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WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
newyorkstadium said:
I have measured my Gel Game 3 using the linked method. I tried both the paper and bar clamp method.

http://www.runblogger.com/2010/06/heel-toe-drop-or-offset-what-does-it.html

Strangely, when measuring with the ruler method I get different measurements when measuring the right inner fabric and the left. I wasn't placing the ruler on a ridge either. This was true of both the Gel Game 3 and Vapor 9. I will list my measuring methods and results

Vapor 9
Bar Clamp/Paper method - 2.9-3.1
Ruler method - 3.0-3.7

Gel Game 3
Bar Clamp/Paper method - 3.2
Ruler method - 2.5-3.1

I will have to order some digital calipers, to find out whether the bar clamp method is right. I've given up on the method. It's too inaccurate.
Click to expand...

I haven't tried any of these methods, so I don't have a feel for the difficulties.

I know with some shoes the insole has somewhat of a heel cup (perhaps the midsole, too?) which is going to make a difference if you don't measure at the center of low point of the heel cup.

The clamp method shown seems like the same as one of those bar calipers with an extension. I think there will always be some margin of error depending upon how the insole is pressed in the shoe, though I'd think the distance would be fairly consistent from shoe to shoe with modern manufacturing.

Still no one with a Nike shoe has posted a measurement?
 
N

newyorkstadium

Professional
The depth caliper is the only one with perfect accuracy. The digital caliper is not as reliable as I'd hoped, as the prongs can get stuck in a groove in the tread pattern. I will list my measuring methods and results.:

Gel Game 3
Bar Clamp method - 3.15 cm
Depth Caliper - 2.95 cm
Paper - 3 cm
Digital Outside Caliper - 3.25 cm
 
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N

newyorkstadium

Professional
Could people re-measure using the new methods? The ruler method was far too unreliable and inaccurate.

I think shoes should be new as well. Shoes lose cushion over time, and at different rates, so I don't think it's a good idea to measure used shoes.
 
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WildVolley

WildVolley

Legend
newyorkstadium said:
Could people re-measure using the new methods? The ruler method was far too unreliable and inaccurate.

I think shoes should be new as well. Shoes lose cushion over time, and at different rates, so I don't think it's a good idea to measure used shoes.
Click to expand...

I will try to remeasure with the new methods once I have the time. I have a pair of new shoes that I could measure.

Here's something I was thinking about: Should I take measures both with and without the removable insole on shoes that have a removable insole? I'm just thinking that the insole is sometimes soft, which might affect the measures and that some people pull it out and replace it in any case. It seemed to me the video of RW showed them measuring it with the insole removed.
 
N

newyorkstadium

Professional
You can if you like. I'm not sure it's necessary, as most people play with the insoles in.

I have a digital micrometer, micrometer and bar clamp arriving tomorrow. I will compare them for accuracy. Hopefully they all bring similar measurements.
 
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N

newyorkstadium

Professional
Another one bites the dust. Micrometers can't be used.

I was hoping a 75-100mm micrometer could be used. However, the rod only lowers from 100 mm to 75mm.

A 25-50mm micrometer or lower doesn't fit on the shoe.
 
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N

newyorkstadium

Professional
The used Gel Game 3 is 0.3cm different from the new GG3. This highlights that shoes lose cushion over time. The used GG3 has 17.5hrs court usage and 40+hrs walking in them.

If you have any new shoes, or shoes with very little usage, please post them using the new measuring method.
 
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