Whats your top 10 of all time right now?

TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
Rosewall won more majors than Federer plus he played in a stronger era.

The most grand slam winners is Roger Federer and that how the historians have it as the benchmark. Rosewall pro majors are not as impressive because of the split fields, and the draw was only from 8-14 players. Frankly, I believe they are comparable to the modern Master Series.

Most GS titles
1. Roger Federer 17*
2. Pete Sampras 14
3. Björn Borg 11
= Rafael Nadal 11*
5. Jimmy Connors 8
= Ivan Lendl 8
= Andre Agassi 8
8. John McEnroe 7
= Mats Wilander 7
10. Stefan Edberg 6
= Boris Becker 6
 
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Talker

Hall of Fame
The most grand slam winners is Roger Federer and that how the historians have it as the benchmark. Rosewall pro majors are not as impressive because of the spit fields, and the draw was only from 8-14 players. Frankly, I believe they are comparable to the modern Master Series.

Most GS titles
1. Roger Federer 17*
2. Pete Sampras 14
3. Björn Borg 11
= Rafael Nadal 11*
5. Jimmy Connors 8
= Ivan Lendl 8
= Andre Agassi 8
8. John McEnroe 7
= Mats Wilander 7
10. Stefan Edberg 6
= Boris Becker 6

When the tennis channel put out their list Fed was #1.

But since then Fed has become #1 in the rankings and has an additional slam.

I had Fed, Sampras, Borg and Laver about equal when Fed was at #13.
When he made #14 and got the french open I put him as #1 all-time.

And of course Fed still has some time to go.
 
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krosero

Legend
krosero, Rosewall's service cannot have been a weakness considering that this player has won more majors than any other player. You can't do it with a weak service.

You might be right regarding US 1956 and Wimbledon 1970 but we should consider that these two matches were played when Rosewall had a rather bad day.

Some experts have said that Rosewall improved his service after turning pro. And I guess it was again weaker when he became an oldie.
That argument has been posted hundreds of times regarding Federer: that you can't win 16/17 majors if your backhand is weak. I see the point -- as I see your point -- but I've grown tired of such arguments. If I criticize Fed's backhand, I am not claiming that it was too weak to win 16 majors. It obviously wasn't. If I criticize Rosewall's serve, I am not claiming that it was too weak to win 23 majors. It obviously wasn't.

It depends entirely on what you mean when you critique a stroke. I did not call Rosewall's serve a weakness. I said there were many alltime greats with greater serves; and I said it was far weaker than the very best serves. And that is true, and verifiable.

I also said it was not a "bad" stroke, because at that level there are no bad strokes. Rosewall, like Connors, directed his serve well, and it was not an easy thing to break him. But his serve was not a damaging weapon, as so many serves have been among the alltime greats. It's one thing to place your serve well so your opponent cannot easily tee off on your serve; another to lay down aces and service winners with regularity.

Even so Rosewall's serve has been attacked on big occasions. I do not agree that his performances in the '56 and '70 Wimbledon finals can be put down entirely to his having a bad day. Double-faults tend to come when the receiver is attacking the second serve; that is very common, at the top levels as well as among hackers. Rosewall was not the type to double-fault gratuitously in a match in which his serve was not pressured. Rosewall, probably less than almost all the alltime greats, was not an inconsistent fellow who had "bad" days on which he just couldn't get the ball in the court. His consistency was his great strength: which is why I think it's very sound and logical to credit Hoad and Newcombe for pressuring him into making those critical double-faults. It's far more likely that Rosewall was forced into those errors, rather than that he just had a bad day.

Here's what Newk did in that '70 final (Sports Illustrated):

Rosewall won the first set by breaking Newcombe's big serve in the 11th game and then holding his own.

But for the next hour it was all Newcombe. Whenever Rosewall missed with his first serve, Newcombe would take the weak second one on his forehand, perhaps the strongest in tennis, and pin Rosewall back on his heels. Newcombe won the second and third sets 6-3, 6-2 and when he immediately broke Rosewall to start the fourth set, the rout appeared to be on. Rosewall looked exhausted, and he would seize the brief rest periods to sit at the base of the umpire chair, waiting until Newcombe took his position on the court before rising.​

Here's an article from 2006 that looked back on his great victory over Hoad at Forest Hills:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/ken-rosewalls-1956-us-open/2006/08/25/1156012743457.html

Rosewall liked playing at Forest Hills because, among other reasons, the grasscourts' low bounce suited his less-than-booming second serve.​
Incidentally that goes back to our debate about why Rosewall did better at Forest Hills than at Wimbledon: it was that low bounce at Forest Hills that protected him, to some degree, from getting attacked on the second serve. Laver hated those courts because of the low junk-friendly bounce; at Wimbledon (and Australia) the ball would bounce higher, and Rosewall's second serve would be easier to attack.

Anyway, there's no question that real damage could be done to Rosewall's serve. I don't call it a "weakness" for the reasons I explained above; but it was an attackable serve.

I find that significant because on serve, more than on any other shot, a player should be on offense.

The backhand is a totally different story. The backhand is where almost every opponent will attack you. It's where you should attack your opponent even if his backhand is stronger than his forehand, according to Vines. Budge had possibly the best BH of all time, and yet Kramer in their famous five-set match attacked it. Rosewall's BH was possibly the best of all time, and yet Newcombe served to it more than he did to Rosewall's FH -- as I tabulated recently; and he drew a lot of errors from it. That's just the standard play in tennis: attack the BH.

And that's partly why I question it when I hear that Federer has a weak backhand because it gets attacked. So what? Of course it's going to be attacked. Of course players are going to draw errors from it. It happened also to Budge and Rosewall.

Yet Federer's backhand holds up remarkably well overall -- except against Nadal's topspin. And in that regard we should remember that no one in tennis history has ever faced the RPM produced by Nadal. It did not happen in the wood era. In that era, especially at the grasscourt slams, Federer would have faced much lower bouncing balls; and his backhand is stellar against those kinds of shots.

His BH is the weakest part of his game but I can't agree that it's as weak, for a BH, as Rosewall's serve is for a serve. Federer can rip passes and other winners on that side; he can be offensive with it, and has been. Many greats in the past have been content to do nothing but slice their backhand (one example is Newcombe; I won't include Rosewall because while he sliced all his backhands, his slice was definitely not defensive!) Yet Federer can be do damage with his.

On the serve it's totally different. On the serve you SHOULD be doing damage routinely; you should be on the offensive. Rolling it in with accuracy is safe and fine -- that does not make your serve a weakness as such -- but there's far more that you can do with a serve, to damage your opponent. That's why I have never liked Rosewall's serve. His groundstrokes are far more imposing than his serve (I guess because he was a natural left-hander taught to play with his right).
 

krosero

Legend
Incidentally I would add Vilas and Segura to the list I posted of greats who had non-notable serves (those were HL Doherty, Bill Johnston, Cochet, Lacoste, Nusslein, Emerson, Connors).
 

krosero

Legend
has anybody done here an exercise of equivalence of nº of majors if a player is considered in any other era, based on weak and strong eras consensus?

Let´s take Jan Kodes.let´s take Novak Djokovic.As it has been clearly and longly stated by seasoned psoters, 1970´s is about 2,5 more difficult to win a major than in th2 2000´s.So , if we transport Kodes to 2010, he´d have the equivalent of 7 majors of the era 20000´s.While, if we tranport Djokovic into , say, 1974, he´d have 2-3 majors equivalent of the 70´s era.

Interesting, very very telling and a good system to weighten titles to make a clarifying analogy...
The 1973 Wimbledon was, to use your own logic, 2.5 times easier to win than a fully attended major like the 1974 Wimbledon.

This is what I don't get, Kiki -- and it's surely that reason that so many accuse you of hypocrisy. You insist that one era can be many times weaker than another. Yet not once have you ever dealt with the possibility that a single major WITHIN an era might be weaker than other majors.

Why only the inter-era comparisons? Why don't you ever speak of how majors might differ within a single era?

You absolutely have to do that for the early Open Era (which you love so much): because attendance at majors fluctuated greatly (unlike today).

To be clear: if someone doesn't want to get into the question of how strong the field was at such-and-such tournament, fine. If you don't want to discuss how the field might have been weak at the 1973 Wimbledon, or how the field in today's era might be weaker or stronger than that from another era -- fine. At least that's consistent.

But if you're going to go on endlessly about how the field in one era is weaker than in another -- then you HAVE to acknowledge the weaknesses of particular events within a single era. That's just basic consistency and honesty.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
The most grand slam winners is Roger Federer and that how the historians have it as the benchmark. Rosewall pro majors are not as impressive because of the split fields, and the draw was only from 8-14 players. Frankly, I believe they are comparable to the modern Master Series.

Most GS titles
1. Roger Federer 17*
2. Pete Sampras 14
3. Björn Borg 11
= Rafael Nadal 11*
5. Jimmy Connors 8
= Ivan Lendl 8
= Andre Agassi 8
8. John McEnroe 7
= Mats Wilander 7
10. Stefan Edberg 6
= Boris Becker 6

It's interesting that you omit Laver and Rosewall in your list...
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
That argument has been posted hundreds of times regarding Federer: that you can't win 16/17 majors if your backhand is weak. I see the point -- as I see your point -- but I've grown tired of such arguments. If I criticize Fed's backhand, I am not claiming that it was too weak to win 16 majors. It obviously wasn't. If I criticize Rosewall's serve, I am not claiming that it was too weak to win 23 majors. It obviously wasn't.

It depends entirely on what you mean when you critique a stroke. I did not call Rosewall's serve a weakness. I said there were many alltime greats with greater serves; and I said it was far weaker than the very best serves. And that is true, and verifiable.

I also said it was not a "bad" stroke, because at that level there are no bad strokes. Rosewall, like Connors, directed his serve well, and it was not an easy thing to break him. But his serve was not a damaging weapon, as so many serves have been among the alltime greats. It's one thing to place your serve well so your opponent cannot easily tee off on your serve; another to lay down aces and service winners with regularity.

Even so Rosewall's serve has been attacked on big occasions. I do not agree that his performances in the '56 and '70 Wimbledon finals can be put down entirely to his having a bad day. Double-faults tend to come when the receiver is attacking the second serve; that is very common, at the top levels as well as among hackers. Rosewall was not the type to double-fault gratuitously in a match in which his serve was not pressured. Rosewall, probably less than almost all the alltime greats, was not an inconsistent fellow who had "bad" days on which he just couldn't get the ball in the court. His consistency was his great strength: which is why I think it's very sound and logical to credit Hoad and Newcombe for pressuring him into making those critical double-faults. It's far more likely that Rosewall was forced into those errors, rather than that he just had a bad day.

Here's what Newk did in that '70 final (Sports Illustrated):

Rosewall won the first set by breaking Newcombe's big serve in the 11th game and then holding his own.

But for the next hour it was all Newcombe. Whenever Rosewall missed with his first serve, Newcombe would take the weak second one on his forehand, perhaps the strongest in tennis, and pin Rosewall back on his heels. Newcombe won the second and third sets 6-3, 6-2 and when he immediately broke Rosewall to start the fourth set, the rout appeared to be on. Rosewall looked exhausted, and he would seize the brief rest periods to sit at the base of the umpire chair, waiting until Newcombe took his position on the court before rising.​

Here's an article from 2006 that looked back on his great victory over Hoad at Forest Hills:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/ken-rosewalls-1956-us-open/2006/08/25/1156012743457.html

Rosewall liked playing at Forest Hills because, among other reasons, the grasscourts' low bounce suited his less-than-booming second serve.​
Incidentally that goes back to our debate about why Rosewall did better at Forest Hills than at Wimbledon: it was that low bounce at Forest Hills that protected him, to some degree, from getting attacked on the second serve. Laver hated those courts because of the low junk-friendly bounce; at Wimbledon (and Australia) the ball would bounce higher, and Rosewall's second serve would be easier to attack.

Anyway, there's no question that real damage could be done to Rosewall's serve. I don't call it a "weakness" for the reasons I explained above; but it was an attackable serve.

I find that significant because on serve, more than on any other shot, a player should be on offense.

The backhand is a totally different story. The backhand is where almost every opponent will attack you. It's where you should attack your opponent even if his backhand is stronger than his forehand, according to Vines. Budge had possibly the best BH of all time, and yet Kramer in their famous five-set match attacked it. Rosewall's BH was possibly the best of all time, and yet Newcombe served to it more than he did to Rosewall's FH -- as I tabulated recently; and he drew a lot of errors from it. That's just the standard play in tennis: attack the BH.

And that's partly why I question it when I hear that Federer has a weak backhand because it gets attacked. So what? Of course it's going to be attacked. Of course players are going to draw errors from it. It happened also to Budge and Rosewall.

Yet Federer's backhand holds up remarkably well overall -- except against Nadal's topspin. And in that regard we should remember that no one in tennis history has ever faced the RPM produced by Nadal. It did not happen in the wood era. In that era, especially at the grasscourt slams, Federer would have faced much lower bouncing balls; and his backhand is stellar against those kinds of shots.

His BH is the weakest part of his game but I can't agree that it's as weak, for a BH, as Rosewall's serve is for a serve. Federer can rip passes and other winners on that side; he can be offensive with it, and has been. Many greats in the past have been content to do nothing but slice their backhand (one example is Newcombe; I won't include Rosewall because while he sliced all his backhands, his slice was definitely not defensive!) Yet Federer can be do damage with his.

On the serve it's totally different. On the serve you SHOULD be doing damage routinely; you should be on the offensive. Rolling it in with accuracy is safe and fine -- that does not make your serve a weakness as such -- but there's far more that you can do with a serve, to damage your opponent. That's why I have never liked Rosewall's serve. His groundstrokes are far more imposing than his serve (I guess because he was a natural left-hander taught to play with his right).

krosero, many thanks that you argue in a serious way against my opinions and NOT blame me for them as a few others use to do.

Your arguments are really well-thought and I agree to a great part. But let me nevertheless contradict a few times.

I believe that every player has good and bad days, even the so consistent Rosewall. For instance at the 1968 Wembley (May) Muscles catched a very poor day (Plus Laver got a famous day as well). Ken himself admitted that on that day "nothing worked".

And Rosewall wrote that he saw the ball better in the 1970 US Open than in the 1970 Wimbledon which means that he did play weaker at W. He just was too exhaused after tough singles and doubles matches.

In the 1962 French tour Rosewall lost a match to Robert Haillet in straight sets. It happened not because Haillet suddenly played like a champion but because Rosewall had a bad day.
 

Iron Man

Rookie
That argument has been posted hundreds of times regarding Federer: that you can't win 16/17 majors if your backhand is weak. I see the point -- as I see your point -- but I've grown tired of such arguments. If I criticize Fed's backhand, I am not claiming that it was too weak to win 16 majors. It obviously wasn't. If I criticize Rosewall's serve, I am not claiming that it was too weak to win 23 majors. It obviously wasn't.

It depends entirely on what you mean when you critique a stroke. I did not call Rosewall's serve a weakness. I said there were many alltime greats with greater serves; and I said it was far weaker than the very best serves. And that is true, and verifiable.

I also said it was not a "bad" stroke, because at that level there are no bad strokes. Rosewall, like Connors, directed his serve well, and it was not an easy thing to break him. But his serve was not a damaging weapon, as so many serves have been among the alltime greats. It's one thing to place your serve well so your opponent cannot easily tee off on your serve; another to lay down aces and service winners with regularity.

Even so Rosewall's serve has been attacked on big occasions. I do not agree that his performances in the '56 and '70 Wimbledon finals can be put down entirely to his having a bad day. Double-faults tend to come when the receiver is attacking the second serve; that is very common, at the top levels as well as among hackers. Rosewall was not the type to double-fault gratuitously in a match in which his serve was not pressured. Rosewall, probably less than almost all the alltime greats, was not an inconsistent fellow who had "bad" days on which he just couldn't get the ball in the court. His consistency was his great strength: which is why I think it's very sound and logical to credit Hoad and Newcombe for pressuring him into making those critical double-faults. It's far more likely that Rosewall was forced into those errors, rather than that he just had a bad day.

Here's what Newk did in that '70 final (Sports Illustrated):

Rosewall won the first set by breaking Newcombe's big serve in the 11th game and then holding his own.

But for the next hour it was all Newcombe. Whenever Rosewall missed with his first serve, Newcombe would take the weak second one on his forehand, perhaps the strongest in tennis, and pin Rosewall back on his heels. Newcombe won the second and third sets 6-3, 6-2 and when he immediately broke Rosewall to start the fourth set, the rout appeared to be on. Rosewall looked exhausted, and he would seize the brief rest periods to sit at the base of the umpire chair, waiting until Newcombe took his position on the court before rising.​

Here's an article from 2006 that looked back on his great victory over Hoad at Forest Hills:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/ken-rosewalls-1956-us-open/2006/08/25/1156012743457.html

Rosewall liked playing at Forest Hills because, among other reasons, the grasscourts' low bounce suited his less-than-booming second serve.​
Incidentally that goes back to our debate about why Rosewall did better at Forest Hills than at Wimbledon: it was that low bounce at Forest Hills that protected him, to some degree, from getting attacked on the second serve. Laver hated those courts because of the low junk-friendly bounce; at Wimbledon (and Australia) the ball would bounce higher, and Rosewall's second serve would be easier to attack.

Anyway, there's no question that real damage could be done to Rosewall's serve. I don't call it a "weakness" for the reasons I explained above; but it was an attackable serve.

I find that significant because on serve, more than on any other shot, a player should be on offense.

The backhand is a totally different story. The backhand is where almost every opponent will attack you. It's where you should attack your opponent even if his backhand is stronger than his forehand, according to Vines. Budge had possibly the best BH of all time, and yet Kramer in their famous five-set match attacked it. Rosewall's BH was possibly the best of all time, and yet Newcombe served to it more than he did to Rosewall's FH -- as I tabulated recently; and he drew a lot of errors from it. That's just the standard play in tennis: attack the BH.

And that's partly why I question it when I hear that Federer has a weak backhand because it gets attacked. So what? Of course it's going to be attacked. Of course players are going to draw errors from it. It happened also to Budge and Rosewall.

Yet Federer's backhand holds up remarkably well overall -- except against Nadal's topspin. And in that regard we should remember that no one in tennis history has ever faced the RPM produced by Nadal. It did not happen in the wood era. In that era, especially at the grasscourt slams, Federer would have faced much lower bouncing balls; and his backhand is stellar against those kinds of shots.

His BH is the weakest part of his game but I can't agree that it's as weak, for a BH, as Rosewall's serve is for a serve. Federer can rip passes and other winners on that side; he can be offensive with it, and has been. Many greats in the past have been content to do nothing but slice their backhand (one example is Newcombe; I won't include Rosewall because while he sliced all his backhands, his slice was definitely not defensive!) Yet Federer can be do damage with his.

On the serve it's totally different. On the serve you SHOULD be doing damage routinely; you should be on the offensive. Rolling it in with accuracy is safe and fine -- that does not make your serve a weakness as such -- but there's far more that you can do with a serve, to damage your opponent. That's why I have never liked Rosewall's serve. His groundstrokes are far more imposing than his serve (I guess because he was a natural left-hander taught to play with his right).

excellent analysis Mr Krosero

you're one of the best and most objective posters here

regards
 

Talker

Hall of Fame
That argument has been posted hundreds of times regarding Federer: that you can't win 16/17 majors if your backhand is weak. I see the point -- as I see your point -- but I've grown tired of such arguments. If I criticize Fed's backhand, I am not claiming that it was too weak to win 16 majors. It obviously wasn't. If I criticize Rosewall's serve, I am not claiming that it was too weak to win 23 majors. It obviously wasn't.

It depends entirely on what you mean when you critique a stroke. I did not call Rosewall's serve a weakness. I said there were many alltime greats with greater serves; and I said it was far weaker than the very best serves. And that is true, and verifiable.

I also said it was not a "bad" stroke, because at that level there are no bad strokes. Rosewall, like Connors, directed his serve well, and it was not an easy thing to break him. But his serve was not a damaging weapon, as so many serves have been among the alltime greats. It's one thing to place your serve well so your opponent cannot easily tee off on your serve; another to lay down aces and service winners with regularity.

Even so Rosewall's serve has been attacked on big occasions. I do not agree that his performances in the '56 and '70 Wimbledon finals can be put down entirely to his having a bad day. Double-faults tend to come when the receiver is attacking the second serve; that is very common, at the top levels as well as among hackers. Rosewall was not the type to double-fault gratuitously in a match in which his serve was not pressured. Rosewall, probably less than almost all the alltime greats, was not an inconsistent fellow who had "bad" days on which he just couldn't get the ball in the court. His consistency was his great strength: which is why I think it's very sound and logical to credit Hoad and Newcombe for pressuring him into making those critical double-faults. It's far more likely that Rosewall was forced into those errors, rather than that he just had a bad day.

Here's what Newk did in that '70 final (Sports Illustrated):
Rosewall won the first set by breaking Newcombe's big serve in the 11th game and then holding his own.

But for the next hour it was all Newcombe. Whenever Rosewall missed with his first serve, Newcombe would take the weak second one on his forehand, perhaps the strongest in tennis, and pin Rosewall back on his heels. Newcombe won the second and third sets 6-3, 6-2 and when he immediately broke Rosewall to start the fourth set, the rout appeared to be on. Rosewall looked exhausted, and he would seize the brief rest periods to sit at the base of the umpire chair, waiting until Newcombe took his position on the court before rising.
Here's an article from 2006 that looked back on his great victory over Hoad at Forest Hills:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/ken-rosewalls-1956-us-open/2006/08/25/1156012743457.html
Rosewall liked playing at Forest Hills because, among other reasons, the grasscourts' low bounce suited his less-than-booming second serve.
Incidentally that goes back to our debate about why Rosewall did better at Forest Hills than at Wimbledon: it was that low bounce at Forest Hills that protected him, to some degree, from getting attacked on the second serve. Laver hated those courts because of the low junk-friendly bounce; at Wimbledon (and Australia) the ball would bounce higher, and Rosewall's second serve would be easier to attack.

Anyway, there's no question that real damage could be done to Rosewall's serve. I don't call it a "weakness" for the reasons I explained above; but it was an attackable serve.

I find that significant because on serve, more than on any other shot, a player should be on offense.

The backhand is a totally different story. The backhand is where almost every opponent will attack you. It's where you should attack your opponent even if his backhand is stronger than his forehand, according to Vines. Budge had possibly the best BH of all time, and yet Kramer in their famous five-set match attacked it. Rosewall's BH was possibly the best of all time, and yet Newcombe served to it more than he did to Rosewall's FH -- as I tabulated recently; and he drew a lot of errors from it. That's just the standard play in tennis: attack the BH.

And that's partly why I question it when I hear that Federer has a weak backhand because it gets attacked. So what? Of course it's going to be attacked. Of course players are going to draw errors from it. It happened also to Budge and Rosewall.

Yet Federer's backhand holds up remarkably well overall -- except against Nadal's topspin. And in that regard we should remember that no one in tennis history has ever faced the RPM produced by Nadal. It did not happen in the wood era. In that era, especially at the grasscourt slams, Federer would have faced much lower bouncing balls; and his backhand is stellar against those kinds of shots.

His BH is the weakest part of his game but I can't agree that it's as weak, for a BH, as Rosewall's serve is for a serve. Federer can rip passes and other winners on that side; he can be offensive with it, and has been. Many greats in the past have been content to do nothing but slice their backhand (one example is Newcombe; I won't include Rosewall because while he sliced all his backhands, his slice was definitely not defensive!) Yet Federer can be do damage with his.

On the serve it's totally different. On the serve you SHOULD be doing damage routinely; you should be on the offensive. Rolling it in with accuracy is safe and fine -- that does not make your serve a weakness as such -- but there's far more that you can do with a serve, to damage your opponent. That's why I have never liked Rosewall's serve. His groundstrokes are far more imposing than his serve (I guess because he was a natural left-hander taught to play with his right).

Very nice objective analysis and refreshing to see this kind of post.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
and he's done it twice too! (2006,2007). Without Ralph(a clay freak), Fed would've had 2 consecutive CYGS in this era. :shock:

Plus Laver never played a freak like Ralph on clay. His moonballs would've gone above Laver's head!

You mean the way they go over Ferrer's and Nalbandian's heads, who are the same height as Laver, with a lot less talent?

You haven't thought this through.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
It's a riddle for me how one can change Rafael or Rafa or Rafe to Ralph...

How many slams would Muscles have, if not for Laver? 30?

Hahaha! I probably started that about 2 years ago. In grade school, there was a boy named Rafael who called himself Ralph to better fit in with all the crackers who were the vast majority at that time. Do you know what a cracker is?
 

hoodjem

G.O.A.T.
Because Laver's 6 of his 11 slams are from the amateur. Rosewall have 4 of 8 from the amateur.
For TMF, pre-1969 is pre-history.

History did not start until 1969, and modern history did not start till 2003.

2003 is year 1 in YORF or AF. (2001 is 1 BF.)
 
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NadalDramaQueen

Guest
You're as bad a troll as any I've seen, and a bigger hypocrite than most.

The difference is that I'm aware that I'm trolling. The fact that you think I'm a hypocrite shows that at least BobbyOne and kiki are hypocrites, which you probably still don't understand. I won't even discuss your posting history, which is basically full of one-line insults when you can't bother to post anything meaningful, which then results in meaningless responses to those meaningless posts. (see my current post)

As for BobbyOne, we basically have a Rosewall fanatic who is upset with Federer fantatics (and Hoad fanatics, apparently) whenever they post something about Federer (or Hoad).
 
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TMF

Talk Tennis Guru
For TMF, pre-1969 is pre-history.

History did not start until 1969, and modern history did not start till 2003.

2003 is year 1 in YORF or AF. (2001 is 1 BF.)

I know that, but amateur slams was competed in a very depleted field thus doesn't have equal weight as the open era slams. Historians don't mix both together because they know the open slams are more significant event.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Because Laver's 6 of his 11 slams are from the amateur. Rosewall have 4 of 8 from the amateur.

You are the only one who does not count the amateur GS tournaments. All official lists (wikipedia etc) include them.

Emerson zero GS titles? Absurd.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Hahaha! I probably started that about 2 years ago. In grade school, there was a boy named Rafael who called himself Ralph to better fit in with all the crackers who were the vast majority at that time. Do you know what a cracker is?

No, I don't know. Something sweet to eat?
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
The difference is that I'm aware that I'm trolling. The fact that you think I'm a hypocrite shows that at least BobbyOne and kiki are hypocrites, which you probably still don't understand. I won't even discuss your posting history, which is basically full of one-line insults when you can't bother to post anything meaningful, which then results in meaningless responses to those meaningless posts. (see my current post)

As for BobbyOne, we basically have a Rosewall fanatic who is upset with Federer fantatics (and Hoad fanatics, apparently) whenever they post something about Federer (or Hoad).

As we are all aware that you are trolling. But, being aware of it doesn't make you any less of a hypocrite for criticising someone else for trolling.

As for BobbyOne, he's no more of a fanatic than any other fanatic. In fact, he's much more of an advocate for Rosewall than most of the Federer fanatics are for Federer. JMHO, of course.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
I know that, but amateur slams was competed in a very depleted field thus doesn't have equal weight as the open era slams. Historians don't mix both together because they know the open slams are more significant event.

I agree that open majors are more prestigious, than pro majors and amateur majors. The question becomes, how much more credit should an open major champion get than a pro major or amateur major champion?

For example, using current ATP weighting, if a major title is worth 2,000 points, should a pro major title be worth, say 1,500 points, 1,750 points, 1,250 points, 1,000 points? You may argue that a 128 man draw is more difficult to win than a 64, 32 or 16 man draw. But, that ignores the fact that a pro major with 16 players amounts to an open major consisting of only the top 16 seeds. Every match you play will be against a top seed. There is no chance that one of your nemises will be eliminated by an unseeded, or lower seeded, player before you have to play him, as so often happens in open tennis majors.

All this to say that it's not as simple and easy as you think it is.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
As we are all aware that you are trolling. But, being aware of it doesn't make you any less of a hypocrite for criticising someone else for trolling.

As for BobbyOne, he's no more of a fanatic than any other fanatic. In fact, he's much more of an advocate for Rosewall than most of the Federer fanatics are for Federer. JMHO, of course.

Limpinhitter, I'm impressed by your supporting words (we have had our quarrel). Thanks a lot. You have realized that I use to back up my R. admiration with facts and numbers. I think we now respect each other.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I agree that open majors are more prestigious, than pro majors and amateur majors. The question becomes, how much more credit should an open major champion get than a pro major or amateur major champion?

For example, using current ATP weighting, if a major title is worth 2,000 points, should a pro major title be worth, say 1,500 points, 1,750 points, 1,250 points, 1,000 points? You may argue that a 128 man draw is more difficult to win than a 64, 32 or 16 man draw. But, that ignores the fact that a pro major with 16 players amounts to an open major consisting of only the top 16 seeds. Every match you play will be against a top seed. There is no chance that one of your nemises will be eliminated by an unseeded, or lower seeded, player before you have to play him, as so often happens in open tennis majors.

All this to say that it's not as simple and easy as you think it is.

Well analyzed!
 
N

NadalDramaQueen

Guest
As we are all aware that you are trolling. But, being aware of it doesn't make you any less of a hypocrite for criticising someone else for trolling.

As for BobbyOne, he's no more of a fanatic than any other fanatic. In fact, he's much more of an advocate for Rosewall than most of the Federer fanatics are for Federer. JMHO, of course.

I suppose I used the wrong word earlier. It isn't about being a troll, it is about being deluded. I don't think that all of the posters who are being ridiculous are trolling, some of them are being serious.

I never said that BobbyOne was worse than Federer fanatics, he is better than some, worse than others.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I suppose I used the wrong word earlier. It isn't about being a troll, it is about being deluded. I don't think that all of the posters who are being ridiculous are trolling, some of them are being serious.

I never said that BobbyOne was worse than Federer fanatics, he is better than some, worse than others.

Thanks for that (little) acknowledgement.
 

Steve132

Professional
I agree that open majors are more prestigious, than pro majors and amateur majors. The question becomes, how much more credit should an open major champion get than a pro major or amateur major champion?

For example, using current ATP weighting, if a major title is worth 2,000 points, should a pro major title be worth, say 1,500 points, 1,750 points, 1,250 points, 1,000 points? You may argue that a 128 man draw is more difficult to win than a 64, 32 or 16 man draw. But, that ignores the fact that a pro major with 16 players amounts to an open major consisting of only the top 16 seeds. Every match you play will be against a top seed. There is no chance that one of your nemises will be eliminated by an unseeded, or lower seeded, player before you have to play him, as so often happens in open tennis majors.

All this to say that it's not as simple and easy as you think it is.

Are you saying that it is easier to win a tournament with an 8 or 16 man draw than it is to win one with a 128 man draw? I would definitely disagree with that view, and so, I think, would most players and tennis analysts. Yes, one or more of your main rivals can be eliminated in an early round of a 128 player draw - but so can you. You might ask Nadal whether would have preferred to avoid facing Rosol at this year's Wimbledon.

Moreover, pro majors did NOT necessarily include the best 16 or even best 8 players in the game. They were not equivalent to starting an Open era major in the fourth round, partly because some of the best players were in the amateur ranks but also because not all the leading pros participated in some of these events. (Every player in the top 100 who is fit and healthy takes part in today's majors.)

We have had this discussion about pro majors before, usually sparked by the breathless claim that "Rosewall won 23 majors!" That is fine, except when posters try to compare that figure - which includes amateur, pro and Open majors - to Open major totals achieved by today's players, and imply that it is the target to beat. There is little support outside of this forum for such a view, because the achievements are not comparable.
 

kiki

Banned
When the tennis channel put out their list Fed was #1.

But since then Fed has become #1 in the rankings and has an additional slam.

I had Fed, Sampras, Borg and Laver about equal when Fed was at #13.
When he made #14 and got the french open I put him as #1 all-time.

And of course Fed still has some time to go.

As somebody posted before, one has to wonder wht would happen to Fed´s slam count if he was deprived to play during his prime, as Laver had to endure.Laver didn´t play majors ( classical majors, not pro) from 1963 to 1967, that is, from 25 to 30 years of age...that is the same as if Federer wouldn´t be allowed to play them from 2005 to 2010 ( same age bracket as Rod)...any answer?
 

kiki

Banned
That argument has been posted hundreds of times regarding Federer: that you can't win 16/17 majors if your backhand is weak. I see the point -- as I see your point -- but I've grown tired of such arguments. If I criticize Fed's backhand, I am not claiming that it was too weak to win 16 majors. It obviously wasn't. If I criticize Rosewall's serve, I am not claiming that it was too weak to win 23 majors. It obviously wasn't.

It depends entirely on what you mean when you critique a stroke. I did not call Rosewall's serve a weakness. I said there were many alltime greats with greater serves; and I said it was far weaker than the very best serves. And that is true, and verifiable.

I also said it was not a "bad" stroke, because at that level there are no bad strokes. Rosewall, like Connors, directed his serve well, and it was not an easy thing to break him. But his serve was not a damaging weapon, as so many serves have been among the alltime greats. It's one thing to place your serve well so your opponent cannot easily tee off on your serve; another to lay down aces and service winners with regularity.

Even so Rosewall's serve has been attacked on big occasions. I do not agree that his performances in the '56 and '70 Wimbledon finals can be put down entirely to his having a bad day. Double-faults tend to come when the receiver is attacking the second serve; that is very common, at the top levels as well as among hackers. Rosewall was not the type to double-fault gratuitously in a match in which his serve was not pressured. Rosewall, probably less than almost all the alltime greats, was not an inconsistent fellow who had "bad" days on which he just couldn't get the ball in the court. His consistency was his great strength: which is why I think it's very sound and logical to credit Hoad and Newcombe for pressuring him into making those critical double-faults. It's far more likely that Rosewall was forced into those errors, rather than that he just had a bad day.

Here's what Newk did in that '70 final (Sports Illustrated):

Rosewall won the first set by breaking Newcombe's big serve in the 11th game and then holding his own.

But for the next hour it was all Newcombe. Whenever Rosewall missed with his first serve, Newcombe would take the weak second one on his forehand, perhaps the strongest in tennis, and pin Rosewall back on his heels. Newcombe won the second and third sets 6-3, 6-2 and when he immediately broke Rosewall to start the fourth set, the rout appeared to be on. Rosewall looked exhausted, and he would seize the brief rest periods to sit at the base of the umpire chair, waiting until Newcombe took his position on the court before rising.​

Here's an article from 2006 that looked back on his great victory over Hoad at Forest Hills:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/ken-rosewalls-1956-us-open/2006/08/25/1156012743457.html

Rosewall liked playing at Forest Hills because, among other reasons, the grasscourts' low bounce suited his less-than-booming second serve.​
Incidentally that goes back to our debate about why Rosewall did better at Forest Hills than at Wimbledon: it was that low bounce at Forest Hills that protected him, to some degree, from getting attacked on the second serve. Laver hated those courts because of the low junk-friendly bounce; at Wimbledon (and Australia) the ball would bounce higher, and Rosewall's second serve would be easier to attack.

Anyway, there's no question that real damage could be done to Rosewall's serve. I don't call it a "weakness" for the reasons I explained above; but it was an attackable serve.

I find that significant because on serve, more than on any other shot, a player should be on offense.

The backhand is a totally different story. The backhand is where almost every opponent will attack you. It's where you should attack your opponent even if his backhand is stronger than his forehand, according to Vines. Budge had possibly the best BH of all time, and yet Kramer in their famous five-set match attacked it. Rosewall's BH was possibly the best of all time, and yet Newcombe served to it more than he did to Rosewall's FH -- as I tabulated recently; and he drew a lot of errors from it. That's just the standard play in tennis: attack the BH.

And that's partly why I question it when I hear that Federer has a weak backhand because it gets attacked. So what? Of course it's going to be attacked. Of course players are going to draw errors from it. It happened also to Budge and Rosewall.

Yet Federer's backhand holds up remarkably well overall -- except against Nadal's topspin. And in that regard we should remember that no one in tennis history has ever faced the RPM produced by Nadal. It did not happen in the wood era. In that era, especially at the grasscourt slams, Federer would have faced much lower bouncing balls; and his backhand is stellar against those kinds of shots.

His BH is the weakest part of his game but I can't agree that it's as weak, for a BH, as Rosewall's serve is for a serve. Federer can rip passes and other winners on that side; he can be offensive with it, and has been. Many greats in the past have been content to do nothing but slice their backhand (one example is Newcombe; I won't include Rosewall because while he sliced all his backhands, his slice was definitely not defensive!) Yet Federer can be do damage with his.

On the serve it's totally different. On the serve you SHOULD be doing damage routinely; you should be on the offensive. Rolling it in with accuracy is safe and fine -- that does not make your serve a weakness as such -- but there's far more that you can do with a serve, to damage your opponent. That's why I have never liked Rosewall's serve. His groundstrokes are far more imposing than his serve (I guess because he was a natural left-hander taught to play with his right).

Good point.Bobby One, how could this you let it go? if Rosewall had not been obliged to play right handed by dad, he could have easily been the best ever..so, blame Ken´s dad for all his defeats¡¡¡

I am somewhat joking, Rosewall ahs always stated that he was more natural with his left , specially at power shots like the serve...now, imagine Rosewall with a big serve???
 

kiki

Banned
The 1973 Wimbledon was, to use your own logic, 2.5 times easier to win than a fully attended major like the 1974 Wimbledon.

This is what I don't get, Kiki -- and it's surely that reason that so many accuse you of hypocrisy. You insist that one era can be many times weaker than another. Yet not once have you ever dealt with the possibility that a single major WITHIN an era might be weaker than other majors.

Why only the inter-era comparisons? Why don't you ever speak of how majors might differ within a single era?

You absolutely have to do that for the early Open Era (which you love so much): because attendance at majors fluctuated greatly (unlike today).

To be clear: if someone doesn't want to get into the question of how strong the field was at such-and-such tournament, fine. If you don't want to discuss how the field might have been weak at the 1973 Wimbledon, or how the field in today's era might be weaker or stronger than that from another era -- fine. At least that's consistent.

But if you're going to go on endlessly about how the field in one era is weaker than in another -- then you HAVE to acknowledge the weaknesses of particular events within a single era. That's just basic consistency and honesty.

Of course, I have not calculated the weight of Kodes 2 lost USO finals to make up the addition....

...I don´t think you are a foreigner to the 70´s era, so that you should talk more about WHO ENTERED the 73 field at London rather than who did not...you might be surprised...

in other words, the supossed weakest field of the 70´s matches the toughest field of the 2000´s...
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Good point.Bobby One, how could this you let it go? if Rosewall had not been obliged to play right handed by dad, he could have easily been the best ever..so, blame Ken´s dad for all his defeats¡¡¡

I am somewhat joking, Rosewall ahs always stated that he was more natural with his left , specially at power shots like the serve...now, imagine Rosewall with a big serve???

I agree that Rosewall would have been stronger if he had played left-handed. But trust me: I'm virtually satisfied with those wins and victories he actually did have...
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Are you saying that it is easier to win a tournament with an 8 or 16 man draw than it is to win one with a 128 man draw? I would definitely disagree with that view, and so, I think, would most players and tennis analysts. Yes, one or more of your main rivals can be eliminated in an early round of a 128 player draw - but so can you. You might ask Nadal whether would have preferred to avoid facing Rosol at this year's Wimbledon.

Moreover, pro majors did NOT necessarily include the best 16 or even best 8 players in the game. They were not equivalent to starting an Open era major in the fourth round, partly because some of the best players were in the amateur ranks but also because not all the leading pros participated in some of these events. (Every player in the top 100 who is fit and healthy takes part in today's majors.)

We have had this discussion about pro majors before, usually sparked by the breathless claim that "Rosewall won 23 majors!" That is fine, except when posters try to compare that figure - which includes amateur, pro and Open majors - to Open major totals achieved by today's players, and imply that it is the target to beat. There is little support outside of this forum for such a view, because the achievements are not comparable.

Wikipedia also refers to Rosewall's 23 major wins and etc.
 

kiki

Banned
I agree that Rosewall would have been stronger if he had played left-handed. But trust me: I'm virtually satisfied with those wins and victories he actually did have...

I doubt he feels prouder for any other victory than the 1972 Dallas final agaisnt the Rocket, he even baggeled him in a truly amazing display of class, speed, finesse, inteligence and shotmaking of both...( I felt sad for the Rocket, since a WCT final would put him in a class by itself)
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
I doubt he feels prouder for any other victory than the 1972 Dallas final agaisnt the Rocket, he even baggeled him in a truly amazing display of class, speed, finesse, inteligence and shotmaking of both...( I felt sad for the Rocket, since a WCT final would put him in a class by itself)

Yes, Muscles himself rated his two WCT finals' wins as his greatest ones. But I would say that the 1970 US Open victory was his best win: 7 rounds to win, all stars participating (In Dallas of course did not play Smith, Nastase, Kodes) and a great revenge against Wimbledon winner, Newcombe...
 

krosero

Legend
Of course, I have not calculated the weight of Kodes 2 lost USO finals to make up the addition....

...I don´t think you are a foreigner to the 70´s era, so that you should talk more about WHO ENTERED the 73 field at London rather than who did not...you might be surprised...

in other words, the supossed weakest field of the 70´s matches the toughest field of the 2000´s...
That's right I'm not a foreigner to the 70s era, and I have studied closely who was present and absent at the majors in that decade.

Kiki, it's a joke the way you build up the draw at the '73 Wimbledon by constantly mentioning Borg and Connors. It's so obvious that you're drawing on their great names that they built up later. If ever a concept of "peak years" was crying out to be used, it would be here. But of course you've never shown any willingness to deal with that.

You speak of nothing else except how one era is weak, weak, weak, not even comparable to another. It's pure hypocrisy until you acknowledge the weakness of an individual tournament WITHIN an era.

That's the greatest irony here, maybe. The early Open Era is characterized by fluctuating attendances at the majors. Anyone genuinely interested in studying that era needs to tackle that history HEAD ON -- and not avoid the problem by simply listing the names of those who were entered in the draw.
 

krosero

Legend
As soon as Federer got a prime Nadal as main opponent he mostly lost to Rafa...
As soon as Nadal got a peak Djokovic he lost to him 7 straight times -- a longer losing streak than any that Federer had against Nadal.

Obviously Federer has problems against Nadal. But if Federer is downgraded for that, then Nadal must be downgraded for his problems against Djokovic.

Here's just one example, using the most extreme conclusion (these are not the only conclusions one can make, by any means): if Federer's difficulties against Nadal mean that he is an inferior player to Nadal, then we should be seriously considering that Nadal is inferior to Djokovic.

Of course that implies that Federer is two leagues below Djokovic. But try making that work, when Federer, on his worst surface, at age 29, beat Djokovic at RG in Novak's best year; when Federer has just beaten #1-ranked Djokovic at Wimbledon, and again at Cincinnati without the loss of service.
 

Mustard

Bionic Poster
Nadal currently has a 3 match winning streak against Djokovic. He kept coming after Djokovic until he overcame the problem.
 

World Beater

Hall of Fame
Nadal currently has a 3 match winning streak against Djokovic. He kept coming after Djokovic until he overcame the problem.

On the contrary, nadal was always there on clay and was always the favorite on clay.

many players said this before the clay season began in 2012 even if djokovic had a great 2011

When nadal and novak get back on hardcourts, nadal will get beaten once again. But nadal failed to show up after the french open

If anything nadal hides and waits to beat djokovic in ideal situations for him - clay at monte-carlo, while not stepping up to the challenge at wimbledon and then not playing the usopen.

If nadal defeats djokovic on hard courts, then we can say that he has overcome the problem..until then nothing has really changed in the rivalry
 

krosero

Legend
Nadal currently has a 3 match winning streak against Djokovic. He kept coming after Djokovic until he overcame the problem.
3 wins after 7 losses is not yet that much, particularly with all 3 wins coming on Nadal's best surface. None yet on Djokovic's best (hard). And those 7 losses took place on hard, on grass and, most damaging of all for Nadal, on clay.

Nadal always said that he had to wait for Djokovic's level to inevitably come down, which it did. In that way he was right; he has also made some good adjustments in oncourt strategy. But as far as I'm concerned plenty of questions remain, especially until Nadal defeats Djokovic apart from clay (or even apart from grass which is arguably Novak's worst surface, and probably Nadal's second-best).

And whatever happens in the future, it will always be true that Nadal could not defeat peak Djokovic (2011) -- not even on clay, not even when he was still 25 and in his own prime. Federer will always be able to say that he defeated peak Djokovic, even on his own worst surface (clay) and at the age of 29.

Well, that's assuming Djokovic does not return to his peak level. He may get back there. But if he does, I'm not sure Nadal will find it any easier to beat him than he did in 2011.

What was that phrase about Federer, with regard to Nadal? "Owned at will"? I never felt that to such a great degree as I did last year when Nadal was playing Djokovic. It seemed Rafa could not even win sets except by increasing his already abnormal intensity to something superhuman. I especially felt that during their USO final. Nadal got that third set with a brutal level that was extremely entertaining for us spectators, but it left him with nothing for the remainder of the match.

One question hanging in the air now is to what degree Nadal wore himself out earlier this year, in his effort to overcome Djokovic. I don't know the answer, but I wonder what the mental and physical costs have been for him.

Federer has won his last two matches from Djokovic without showing any signs of being drained or paying a cost.

To be clear: when I say that Federer has done this-and-that against Djokovic which Nadal has not been able to do, I am not saying, "Heck, this proves it, Federer > Nadal/Djokovic." The only thing that really could prove that is the three players' entire records, after they've retired.

What I'm really trying to emphasize here is the importance of matchup issues.
 

krosero

Legend
I agree that Rosewall would have been stronger if he had played left-handed.
Rosewall has a GOAT-worthy record already, it's intriguing to think what he might have achieved as a left-hander.

And think of his style of play. Imagine, Ken Rosewall with a big leftie serve, hooking wide in the ad court ... hardly seems the same player. Maybe I exaggerate, but still...
 
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Dan Lobb

G.O.A.T.
That argument has been posted hundreds of times regarding Federer: that you can't win 16/17 majors if your backhand is weak. I see the point -- as I see your point -- but I've grown tired of such arguments. If I criticize Fed's backhand, I am not claiming that it was too weak to win 16 majors. It obviously wasn't. If I criticize Rosewall's serve, I am not claiming that it was too weak to win 23 majors. It obviously wasn't.

It depends entirely on what you mean when you critique a stroke. I did not call Rosewall's serve a weakness. I said there were many alltime greats with greater serves; and I said it was far weaker than the very best serves. And that is true, and verifiable.

I also said it was not a "bad" stroke, because at that level there are no bad strokes. Rosewall, like Connors, directed his serve well, and it was not an easy thing to break him. But his serve was not a damaging weapon, as so many serves have been among the alltime greats. It's one thing to place your serve well so your opponent cannot easily tee off on your serve; another to lay down aces and service winners with regularity.

Even so Rosewall's serve has been attacked on big occasions. I do not agree that his performances in the '56 and '70 Wimbledon finals can be put down entirely to his having a bad day. Double-faults tend to come when the receiver is attacking the second serve; that is very common, at the top levels as well as among hackers. Rosewall was not the type to double-fault gratuitously in a match in which his serve was not pressured. Rosewall, probably less than almost all the alltime greats, was not an inconsistent fellow who had "bad" days on which he just couldn't get the ball in the court. His consistency was his great strength: which is why I think it's very sound and logical to credit Hoad and Newcombe for pressuring him into making those critical double-faults. It's far more likely that Rosewall was forced into those errors, rather than that he just had a bad day.

Here's what Newk did in that '70 final (Sports Illustrated):

Rosewall won the first set by breaking Newcombe's big serve in the 11th game and then holding his own.

But for the next hour it was all Newcombe. Whenever Rosewall missed with his first serve, Newcombe would take the weak second one on his forehand, perhaps the strongest in tennis, and pin Rosewall back on his heels. Newcombe won the second and third sets 6-3, 6-2 and when he immediately broke Rosewall to start the fourth set, the rout appeared to be on. Rosewall looked exhausted, and he would seize the brief rest periods to sit at the base of the umpire chair, waiting until Newcombe took his position on the court before rising.​

Here's an article from 2006 that looked back on his great victory over Hoad at Forest Hills:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/ken-rosewalls-1956-us-open/2006/08/25/1156012743457.html

Rosewall liked playing at Forest Hills because, among other reasons, the grasscourts' low bounce suited his less-than-booming second serve.​
Incidentally that goes back to our debate about why Rosewall did better at Forest Hills than at Wimbledon: it was that low bounce at Forest Hills that protected him, to some degree, from getting attacked on the second serve. Laver hated those courts because of the low junk-friendly bounce; at Wimbledon (and Australia) the ball would bounce higher, and Rosewall's second serve would be easier to attack.

Anyway, there's no question that real damage could be done to Rosewall's serve. I don't call it a "weakness" for the reasons I explained above; but it was an attackable serve.

I find that significant because on serve, more than on any other shot, a player should be on offense.

The backhand is a totally different story. The backhand is where almost every opponent will attack you. It's where you should attack your opponent even if his backhand is stronger than his forehand, according to Vines. Budge had possibly the best BH of all time, and yet Kramer in their famous five-set match attacked it. Rosewall's BH was possibly the best of all time, and yet Newcombe served to it more than he did to Rosewall's FH -- as I tabulated recently; and he drew a lot of errors from it. That's just the standard play in tennis: attack the BH.

And that's partly why I question it when I hear that Federer has a weak backhand because it gets attacked. So what? Of course it's going to be attacked. Of course players are going to draw errors from it. It happened also to Budge and Rosewall.

Yet Federer's backhand holds up remarkably well overall -- except against Nadal's topspin. And in that regard we should remember that no one in tennis history has ever faced the RPM produced by Nadal. It did not happen in the wood era. In that era, especially at the grasscourt slams, Federer would have faced much lower bouncing balls; and his backhand is stellar against those kinds of shots.

His BH is the weakest part of his game but I can't agree that it's as weak, for a BH, as Rosewall's serve is for a serve. Federer can rip passes and other winners on that side; he can be offensive with it, and has been. Many greats in the past have been content to do nothing but slice their backhand (one example is Newcombe; I won't include Rosewall because while he sliced all his backhands, his slice was definitely not defensive!) Yet Federer can be do damage with his.

On the serve it's totally different. On the serve you SHOULD be doing damage routinely; you should be on the offensive. Rolling it in with accuracy is safe and fine -- that does not make your serve a weakness as such -- but there's far more that you can do with a serve, to damage your opponent. That's why I have never liked Rosewall's serve. His groundstrokes are far more imposing than his serve (I guess because he was a natural left-hander taught to play with his right).

Rosewall's 1970 Wimbledon final was much like his 1971 semi-final against Newcombe and his 1974 final against Connors.
The poor guy was exhausted from draining matches against Emerson in 1970, Richey in 1971, and Smith in 1974.
He was just pooping his second serve over, and it was vulnerable. Not good serving days for Muscles.
These are not representative performances for Rosewall, whose serve was normally tough to break, even by the best players.
 

urban

Legend
It was Newcombe himself who had that long draining match with Emerson at Wim 1970 in quarters. Rosewall had two medium draining four setters against Roche and Taylor. What is right, is that Newk and Roche on purpose tried to tire up Rosewall in the foregoing doubles final, played the day before the mens final. Newcombe threw up one lob after the other, to make Rosewall run.
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
As soon as Nadal got a peak Djokovic he lost to him 7 straight times -- a longer losing streak than any that Federer had against Nadal.

Obviously Federer has problems against Nadal. But if Federer is downgraded for that, then Nadal must be downgraded for his problems against Djokovic.

Here's just one example, using the most extreme conclusion (these are not the only conclusions one can make, by any means): if Federer's difficulties against Nadal mean that he is an inferior player to Nadal, then we should be seriously considering that Nadal is inferior to Djokovic.

Of course that implies that Federer is two leagues below Djokovic. But try making that work, when Federer, on his worst surface, at age 29, beat Djokovic at RG in Novak's best year; when Federer has just beaten #1-ranked Djokovic at Wimbledon, and again at Cincinnati without the loss of service.

Of course I agree but I only refered to Federer's losses to Nadal. I know that Nadal lost badly to Djokovic last year. I'm not a great admirer of Nadal. I believe that Djokovic has the best potential and most beautiful game of the top three...
 

BobbyOne

G.O.A.T.
Rosewall's 1970 Wimbledon final was much like his 1971 semi-final against Newcombe and his 1974 final against Connors.
The poor guy was exhausted from draining matches against Emerson in 1970, Richey in 1971, and Smith in 1974.
He was just pooping his second serve over, and it was vulnerable. Not good serving days for Muscles.
These are not representative performances for Rosewall, whose serve was normally tough to break, even by the best players.

I agree but Rosewall did not meet Emerson at Wimbledon 1970. He did play Roche and Taylor in tough four set matches though.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Nadal currently has a 3 match winning streak against Djokovic. He kept coming after Djokovic until he overcame the problem.


That's very significant because it shows, as always that Nadal is able to make adjustments against an opponent. When a player cannot or refuses to make adjustments and continues to lose regularly against an opponent, you do wonder if he or she is capable of making these adjustments. If he or she isn't capable it is simply a weakness that he or she had that is a major negative against that person. Nadal may shown that the losses to Djokovic may have been a tactical problem and not a technical problem with his strokes.
 

pc1

G.O.A.T.
Of course I agree but I only refered to Federer's losses to Nadal. I know that Nadal lost badly to Djokovic last year. I'm not a great admirer of Nadal. I believe that Djokovic has the best potential and most beautiful game of the top three...

Many including Nadal's Uncle Toni may believe that to be true.

By the way in my above post I wrote about Nadal's tactical adjustments, another thing is that I believe Djokovic's play is at a lower level recently.
 

Iron Man

Rookie
That's very significant because it shows, as always that Nadal is able to make adjustments against an opponent. When a player cannot or refuses to make adjustments and continues to lose regularly against an opponent, you do wonder if he or she is capable of making these adjustments. If he or she isn't capable it is simply a weakness that he or she had that is a major negative against that person. Nadal may shown that the losses to Djokovic may have been a tactical problem and not a technical problem with his strokes.

you mean Federer for sure. no?
 

zagor

Bionic Poster
That's very significant because it shows, as always that Nadal is able to make adjustments against an opponent.

Actually no, it absolutely doesn't show that, sure Nadal beat Novak 3 times in a row this year but all of those wins were on clay. The only thing those 3 wins showed that there's such a gap in playing ability between Nadal and the rest of the field on clay is that a player has to be absolutely zoning (like Novak was in 2011) or/and Nadal to be off his game somewhat for said player to beat Nadal on that surface.

Honestly, it would be like me praising Fed for making necessary adjustments because he continues to trounce prime Nadal indoors even though he (Fed) is way past his prime, it's an ideal environment for him to play Nadal (for a variety of reasons), just like clay is an ideal environment for Nadal to play anyone basically.
 
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