Indian Wells court speed

ark_28

ark_28

Legend
President said:
All of John's best performances that I've seen have been on pretty slow courts. Fast courts just don't give a player of his limited movement and footwork enough time to set up for his shots or return serve. Can you give examples of Isner playing great on fast courts?
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You make a decent point in that some of John's best results come on slow courts because he has time to set up and use his explosive power!

But what screws John is a medium pace court his movement will never be on par with the say Novak or Rafa so it's hard to control the points by playing the right way with attacking tennis!

To be fair there are barely if any lighting quick courts any more but just looking at how John's game would work on such a surface and you have to like his chances, movement wouldn't be an issue as his serve would be very difficult if not impossible to returning on an old school lightning fast court! Then if the other guy got nervous and missed a few first serves John could take some big swings and jus needs one break and the set is as good as his! Or win one point on the other guys serve in the breaker.

This is why the tournament organisers are wrong to not exploit this and prepare a an abosolutely lightning fast deck! It would have rewarded attacking tennis and prevented yet another battle of attrition!
 
cluckcluck

cluckcluck

Hall of Fame
RodSmooth said:
John sucks, end of story.

Without a serve he wouldn't have made it past juniors, with a decent rank
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I have to agree with that. He would have made it through college as well but would be a low lying futures player if it weren't for the serve.
 
B

bluetrain4

G.O.A.T.
Federer20042006 said:
IW's always been pretty low bouncing, though. Federer mentioned he likes the surface because his slice stays low.
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I always find the wide-range of court characteristics pretty interesting. I think we've seen courts where slice stays low, yet heavy spin will kick up high. I'm beginning to think a lot of players are less concerned with speed (unless it's extremely fast or slow) and more concerned about ball-height, bounce, etc.
 
A

Agassifan

Hall of Fame
RAFA2005RG said:
Its funny how some people think slow hardcourts benefit Nadal.

The Australian Open is the slowest hardcourt of the slams-
2012: Nadal 6 hour final which destroyed his knees for 2012, went on to withdraw from Miami semis and never recovered, and had to numb his knee regularly to win Roland Garros.
2011: Nadal injured at Australian Open QF while going for THE RAFA SLAM.
2010: Nadal injured at Australian Open QF, retiring from match.
2009: Nadal won the Australian Open (but almost lost a 5 setter to Verdasco of all people) and went on to lose at Roland Garros and skip Wimbledon.

Meanwhile, the last time Nadal lost before the US Open semis was 2007, and he won the 2008 Olympics on a hardcourt that the players kept describing as fast hardcourt.

The slower the hardcourt is, the more damage it does to Nadal.
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Umm.. Murray was leading by two sets and a break when he got "Injured". Please.
 
N

NLBwell

Legend
The "conditions" and the speed of the court are different things. The dry air makes the balls fly quickly through the air. The courts themselves are made to be quite slow to balance this.
To me, Miami has a faster court surface but the humid air slows the ball and so the conditions seem slower.
 
90's Clay

90's Clay

Banned
Its no different then the slowing down of every surface on tour. The last of the fast surfaces (Year End championship) is slower then molasses now too
 
C

coloskier

Legend
cluckcluck said:
I have to agree with that. He would have made it through college as well but would be a low lying futures player if it weren't for the serve.
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That is like saying "If Nadal was a righty, he would have never gone very far". Which is actually a true statement.
 
MasturB

MasturB

Legend
Goosehead said:
its not ruining the sport..the viewing public and tv audiences like it, thats why its happening (slower courts).
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I don't know if audiences like it, so much as to they're just accepting the product as to what they perceive as the best possible product being put out.

The average fan doesn't understand how courts can be "slowed" down. The average fan can probably understand why dirt/clay would be slower than a hard surface.

We had baseline rallies in 2004-2006 when courts were pretty neutral, why do we HAVE to make them slower?
 
Goosehead

Goosehead

Legend
ark_28 said:
If it has been slowed down then it is a disgrace for tennis and from the USTA the fact is the American number 1 John isner on a super fast court with his serve would be lethal! The tournament officials should have considered this and prepared a lightning fast surface! Slowing the courts down universally is runining our sport.
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larry ellsworth isnt interested in john isner, he is interested in his tournament being a commercial success, he wants courts that suit the fans and tv viewers around the world..which is what we get..

and the usta dont have any say in it..the tourney is under the atp tour umbrella, the usta have nothing to do with it.
 
Flash O'Groove

Flash O'Groove

Hall of Fame
Goosehead said:
larry ellsworth isnt interested in john isner, he is interested in his tournament being a commercial success, he wants courts that suit the fans and tv viewers around the world..which is what we get..

and the usta dont have any say in it..the tourney is under the atp tour umbrella, the usta have nothing to do with it.
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I'm not sure that the increasing commercial success is really caused by the slowing of the surfaces. There is a lot of other variable involved such as broadcasting abilities, advertising abilities, and so on who may explain the commercial success. Faster courts could lead to commercial success too.
 
S

spinovic

Hall of Fame
ark_28 said:
You make a decent point in that some of John's best results come on slow courts because he has time to set up and use his explosive power!

But what screws John is a medium pace court his movement will never be on par with the say Novak or Rafa so it's hard to control the points by playing the right way with attacking tennis!

To be fair there are barely if any lighting quick courts any more but just looking at how John's game would work on such a surface and you have to like his chances, movement wouldn't be an issue as his serve would be very difficult if not impossible to returning on an old school lightning fast court! Then if the other guy got nervous and missed a few first serves John could take some big swings and jus needs one break and the set is as good as his! Or win one point on the other guys serve in the breaker.

This is why the tournament organisers are wrong to not exploit this and prepare a an abosolutely lightning fast deck! It would have rewarded attacking tennis and prevented yet another battle of attrition!
Click to expand...

I disagree. The slower courts suit Isner's game better. His movement isn't that good and from what I've seen he's not that good at the net. He's much more comfortable (and better at) taking the early advantage with his big serve and then dictating the point by hitting his forehand from favorable position.

Big serve + forehand. That are his two strengths. Everything else about Isner's game is average or worse.
 
Flash O'Groove

Flash O'Groove

Hall of Fame
spinovic said:
I disagree. The slower courts suit Isner's game better. His movement isn't that good and from what I've seen he's not that good at the net. He's much more comfortable (and better at) taking the early advantage with his big serve and then dictating the point by hitting his forehand from favorable position.

Big serve + forehand. That are his two strengths. Everything else about Isner's game is average or worse.
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What is Isner need is a high bounce, as he is tall. Beside, a higher bounce "slow" the ball as it needs more time to reach the other guy after the bounce (bigger distance to travel).
 
cluckcluck

cluckcluck

Hall of Fame
A contact of mine who works as a hitting partner for some of the pros just tweeted this:

"Once the @BNPPARIBASOPEN balls get a little worn, they feel pressure-less and don't go anywhere on these slower courts! #BNPPO13"
 
S

single_handed_champion

Professional
ark_28 said:
just looking at how John's game would work on such a surface and you have to like his chances, movement wouldn't be an issue as his serve would be very difficult if not impossible to returning on an old school lightning fast court! Then if the other guy got nervous and missed a few first serves John could take some big swings and jus needs one break and the set is as good as his! Or win one point on the other guys serve in the breaker.
Click to expand...

LOL, it is just the opposite. Opponents know he is useless on return and so if they can just stab a few returns back, they have a > 50% chance of winning every point. Pretty much what happens in most of his matches these days. Fewer tiebreaks and just 1 break the opponent needs to win routine sets. IMO Isner would be in trouble on lightning-fast courts. You will find that the counterpunchers prefer playing on such courts, and unless you are a Roger Federer type, an aggressive-minded player does not necessarily thrive more than usual.
 
S

spinovic

Hall of Fame
Flash O'Groove said:
What is Isner need is a high bounce, as he is tall. Beside, a higher bounce "slow" the ball as it needs more time to reach the other guy after the bounce (bigger distance to travel).
Click to expand...

I agree. The bounce he gets on his serve(s) is perhaps the feature that causes opponents the most problem.

These guys are great returners. They aren't going to get aced out of a match, IMO. They will get Isner's serve back in play, and a fast court will keep the ball down and more in their strike zone.

But, the real problem, IMO, is the reverse side. Isner's disadvantage when returning serve is exponentially increase on a fast service. I guy like Federer would probably average 60-70 seconds per hold.
 
S

SassyRamirez

Banned
Flash O'Groove said:
I'm not sure that the increasing commercial success is really caused by the slowing of the surfaces. There is a lot of other variable involved such as broadcasting abilities, advertising abilities, and so on who may explain the commercial success. Faster courts could lead to commercial success too.
Click to expand...

The idea that audiences are asking for ultra slow courts everywhere is total hogwash of the highest order.

Go and watch matches in Paris 2010 and the audiences were super in to the matches, and their were plenty of great rallies and points.

Honestly the crowd here in IW this past week has been mostly dead really, I'm not really seeing the crowds going nuts over ultra slow gritty courts. :lol:
 
Federer20042006

Federer20042006

Banned
All that stuff I said about Indian Wells being pretty low bouncing...well, we can put that in the past tense.

Holy .... this is making Miami look like 90s Wimbledon.
 
Goosehead

Goosehead

Legend
i caught a bit of novak vs querrey this morning early on (1:50am finish over there:shock:)

the court seemed quicker, the ball wasnt sticking to the court but coming off at a decent pace.., but seemed ok..maybe a worn court helps the speed a bit, or the night desert air :confused:
 
Relinquis

Relinquis

Hall of Fame
murray said in an interview that during the evening the ball bounces lower and travels slower than during in the heat during the day.
 
War Safin!

War Safin!

Professional
Would speeding-up the hardcourts (and while we're at it, changing Wimbeldon grass to how it was), make players change their overall playing-strategy?

Would guys like Gulbis, Berdych, Tsonga, Raonic, Del Potro, Cilic suddenly start to serve-and-volley more?
Do they (or anyone else) even know how to serve-and-volley?
 
S

spinovic

Hall of Fame
War said:
Would speeding-up the hardcourts (and while we're at it, changing Wimbeldon grass to how it was), make players change their overall playing-strategy?

Would guys like Gulbis, Berdych, Tsonga, Raonic, Del Potro, Cilic suddenly start to serve-and-volley more?
Do they (or anyone else) even know how to serve-and-volley?
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I think Tsonga could do it. I have my doubts about the others though. None of them have looked overly impressive as volleyers when I've seen them. Not saying they're bad, but they're not great.

Gulbis is the exception. I've been impressed with his volleying in the recent matches I've watched, but that's a small sample. I haven't seen him enough.

Federer is a great volleyer, so I'm guessing he would incorporate S&V as a big part of his game on faster surfaces. The other 3 top guys aren't great volleyers either.
 
T

Tiebreak100

New User
War said:
Would speeding-up the hardcourts (and while we're at it, changing Wimbeldon grass to how it was), make players change their overall playing-strategy?

Would guys like Gulbis, Berdych, Tsonga, Raonic, Del Potro, Cilic suddenly start to serve-and-volley more?
Do they (or anyone else) even know how to serve-and-volley?
Click to expand...

You do not seriously want the grass from the past to return? Whilst the purist may enjoy 3 shot tennis, the floating fans will switch off in huge numbers. Why should the court speed be faster to suit the big hitters? The majority of the big hitters are usually of considerable height, which is already a distinct advantage.

Players like Isner and Raonic should be intelligent enough to do better than they currently do, but they are clearly weak in certain key aspects of the game. By increasing the prominence of the serve by speeding up the court, you will see guys with gaping flaws in their game being unduly rewarded. That is not a positive step forward.

From a British perspective, I do not want my Slam tournament to be the one predominantly about serve. We have been there before, and it is dull as dishwater. Sampras won 7 Wimbledon titles, yet he was never that popular with the UK public; simply because people did not like watching his brand of tennis.
 
U

ultradr

Legend
spinovic said:
Federer is a great volleyer, so I'm guessing he would incorporate S&V as a big part of his game on faster surfaces. The other 3 top guys aren't great volleyers either.
Click to expand...

Federer is a good volleyer in today's standard but not really a true volleyer.

And he uses it on non-crucial points only. He glues himself to baseline
on critical points like break points. In that sense, he is not much better
than other 3.

When he debuted in 99, he baselined on carpet when lots of players
were still S&Ving.

I'm not sure if he could incorporate S&V successfully. He is a power baseliner
perfect fit for post-2003 tour condition.
 
Last edited:
Polvorin

Polvorin

Professional
tlm said:
Do these endless slow court crybaby threads have to be started for every atp tournament?
Click to expand...

I can tell you that Paris and WTF will not be complained about. Possibly not Cincinatti either. But those are literally the only three tournaments out of more than a hundred that offer something different.
 
Last edited:
S

spinovic

Hall of Fame
ultradr said:
Federer is a good volleyer in today's standard but not really a true volleyer.

And he uses it on non-crucial points only. He glues himself to baseline
on critical points like break points. In that sense, he is not much better
than other 3.

When he debuted in 99, he baselined on carpet when lots of players
were still S&Ving.

I'm not sure if he could incorporate S&V successfully. He is a power baseliner
perfect fit for post-2003 tour condition.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't disagree. He probably isn't on the level of past great net players simply because practice makes perfect and a guy who does it at every opportunity should be better.

However you want to word it, by today's standards, at the net, I think he's the best of the guys in contention. In a neutral position, Federer has the best chance at net to win the point. Nadal is great at volleying to suit his game, i.e., he comes in when he's got the clear advantage and rarely fails to put the volley away.

And, I agree, Federer uses it to mix things up and now I think he uses it a little more to try to shorten points, but when the chips are all in, he stays on the baseline typically.

Regardless, it's all hypothetical. The technology, style and conditions today do not encourage or reward it. You're not going to win playing S&V too much.

Take a guy like Llodra. He's capable of beating some good players and making some good runs, but they're almost always at the indoor tournaments. And, even then, it is a struggle.
 
M

mattennis

Hall of Fame
I know this is what sponsors want (top-players in final rounds of all tournaments) but seriously....that Djokovic-Tsonga SF match sucked big time.

Heck, I love Djokovic consistency and unhuman defence, he is just a machine from the baseline. But these slow hard courts everywhere makes the Tour so predictable.

How can anybody hit through Djokovic's defence on these slow hard courts? It is almost impossible.

In previous decades there were slow hard courts in the first months of the year (as well as very fast indoor carpet too in February), but there were also fast hard courts during the summer and fast indoor carpet in Autumm.

It was so much unpredictable, because on faster hard courts casualties are much more common. You had the typical "big hitter" against "great defender" and in a fast hard court it depended so much on "the good day" the big hitter had that day.

Today, on these so slow hard courts everywhere, given Federer's decline and possibly Nadal declining too, who the heck is going to defeat Djokovic on slow hard courts?

It is very possible that we will see many Djokovic-Murray finals on hard courts this year (more so if Murray gets to nº2 in the world) but their matches lack that extra-something that people love. Their games look too much alike.

I really hope things change and let us hope we can watch more variety in conditions and playing style in the future again.
 
War Safin!

War Safin!

Professional
Tiebreak100 said:
You do not seriously want the grass from the past to return? Whilst the purist may enjoy 3 shot tennis, the floating fans will switch off in huge numbers. Why should the court speed be faster to suit the big hitters? The majority of the big hitters are usually of considerable height, which is already a distinct advantage.

Players like Isner and Raonic should be intelligent enough to do better than they currently do, but they are clearly weak in certain key aspects of the game. By increasing the prominence of the serve by speeding up the court, you will see guys with gaping flaws in their game being unduly rewarded. That is not a positive step forward.

From a British perspective, I do not want my Slam tournament to be the one predominantly about serve. We have been there before, and it is dull as dishwater. Sampras won 7 Wimbledon titles, yet he was never that popular with the UK public; simply because people did not like watching his brand of tennis.
Click to expand...
No, that's not what I was implying. (the reference to Wimbeldon grass was purely to illustrate how court-surfaces have changed over the years).

The fact that guys like Del Potro, Gulbis, Berdych, Raonic, Jancowicz, etc, all around 6'4", have big, big serves and even bigger groundstrokes...playing on court-surfaces from say, the mid-90s, would mean the pendulum would have swung back to far the other way.

However, having said that, it's much more effective and a lower% shot to end a point with a big-serve + volley than it is with a big-serve + huge-forehand.
 
Polvorin

Polvorin

Professional
SassyRamirez said:
Yes according to Stakhovsky it's been slowed down even more:

ckPpyiN.png


xWVri7u.png


Also I'm pretty sure their are clay tournaments faster than IW and Miami.
Click to expand...

I guess they got the result they wanted
 
Murrayfan31

Murrayfan31

Hall of Fame
mattennis said:
I know this is what sponsors want (top-players in final rounds of all tournaments) but seriously....that Djokovic-Tsonga SF match sucked big time.

Heck, I love Djokovic consistency and unhuman defence, he is just a machine from the baseline. But these slow hard courts everywhere makes the Tour so predictable.

How can anybody hit through Djokovic's defence on these slow hard courts? It is almost impossible.

In previous decades there were slow hard courts in the first months of the year (as well as very fast indoor carpet too in February), but there were also fast hard courts during the summer and fast indoor carpet in Autumm.

It was so much unpredictable, because on faster hard courts casualties are much more common. You had the typical "big hitter" against "great defender" and in a fast hard court it depended so much on "the good day" the big hitter had that day.

Today, on these so slow hard courts everywhere, given Federer's decline and possibly Nadal declining too, who the heck is going to defeat Djokovic on slow hard courts?

It is very possible that we will see many Djokovic-Murray finals on hard courts this year (more so if Murray gets to nº2 in the world) but their matches lack that extra-something that people love. Their games look too much alike.

I really hope things change and let us hope we can watch more variety in conditions and playing style in the future again.
Click to expand...
Del Potro. :p
 
haqq777

haqq777

Legend
Martin J said:
ITF puts its surface in the "medium" category, so neither slow nor fast.
Click to expand...
Thanks, yeah, I read that. I was just wondering if anyone knew how players felt it was playing. Sometimes the ITF descriptions don't really align with how the court is actually playing per the players.
 
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