serve video slow motion 120fps looking for comments to improve

back view slow motion
http://youtu.be/PQHdIpTE2LQ
back view normal speed
http://youtu.be/8UG8g4jz6qs


left view slow motion
http://youtu.be/SvZt6KwEONE
left view normal speed
http://youtu.be/Xaftn6XCg3c

some earlier videos
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=477220
http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=7669753

any observation/critique is appreciated!!

list of stuff need to work on from fellow tt members and hitting partners:
will try not to foot fault
keep feet stable
feet leave ground not consistent
tossing arm not tucked
shoulder angle at contact, avoid impingement
elbow not straight enuf approaching contact
head sinking too quickly
inconsistent toss, tend too low, too much to the left, not enugh inside the court.
trophy position
overextention of right pec

Try not to foot fault

Yes try not to foot fault and keep your feet stable in one position. No feet movement will greatly enhance the consisentcy of your serve

1) Sometimes both your feet don't leave the ground, but not always.

2) Tossing arm brought down to side 9 times & 4 times it goes behind you. Also, limp. Might relate to how you are moving your trunk forward. ?
The service motion for pros has the tossing arm always tuck in front, often across the body, with some intent. See pro videos linked below.

3) The racket-forearm angle at/near impact seems to have a reasonable angle to it. But check more serves as it might be varying.

4) Shoulder angle at impact did not look bad, but always check yourself. Search for the Ellenbecker video on shoulder orientation to use while serving to minimize the risk of impingement. Your angles did not look bad from what I could see _ but watch the Ellenbecker video.

5) Approaching contact your elbow is not straight as early as the pro serves. Watch how straight the pros's elbows are. The arm goes up, gets about straight, the racket-forearm angle is at about 90°. Then the arm rotates as the racket forearm angle decreases to say 30°, (varies) at impact. The final approach to the ball takes only 20 milliseconds for pro serves, see Raonic serve below, so you have to be on automatic and not expect to think through this extremely rapid motion. (Considering the shoulder joint ISR & wrist joint motions, the racket head sort of 'spirals up' to impact. But lasting only about 1/4 second as played back at 30 fps from the 240 fps recordings, it can be hard to see. See 420 fps Raonic video.)

For example,
https://vimeo.com/27528701

Raonic serve spiral up.
https://vimeo.com/66720474

See the other pro videos
https://vimeo.com/user6237669/videos/page:4/sort:date

(To do stop-action single-frame on Vimeo press the play-pause control as fast as possible.)

There is nothing forced - don't put the arm up, try to force a turn, etc. It should flow on its own as a final result. But check your serves against high level serves.

Get a clear understanding of what internal shoulder rotation is. It is clearly shown in most of my Vimeo pro videos. Watch carefully for the very fast arm axial rotation as indicated by the bone shadows of the elbow. Also the stretch shortening cycle where stretched muscles are used for rapid joint motions.

To video your serve better:

1) Your view point behind the server was good. Move the camera closer, the higher the better. Frame to get the complete foot to racket plus a little more but consider the distortions from the wide angle lens......

2) Shoot videos in direct sunlight (a sharp shadow will be cast). With more light the automatic exposure control of your camera will pick a fast shutter speed and you will get much less motion blur.

3) You might wear a sleeve-less shirt to show how your upper arm rotates, or put a piece of tape at your elbow as a marker.

4) Take some videos from the side. Probably perpendicular to the ball's trajectory might be better than along the baseline.

What camera did you use?

Thanks Much Chas. Will do.
I was using Gopro remember I mentioned in another thread

Chas Tennis said:

4) Take some videos from the side. Probably perpendicular to the ball's trajectory might be better than along the baseline.

Click to expand...

If you do this, I believe one thing you will notice is your ball toss. Judging from where you start and where you land, I'd guess your toss is either straight-up or worse, behind you. Ideally, if you toss the ball but don't hit it, the ball should land ~ 1-2ft inside the court.

Two other things to note:
1 - While you got better as the serves went on, you should try to get a full arm extension at contact point. The first couple your arm was still bent when you made contact w/ the ball.

2 - Try to keep that left hand up a little longer. It will help w/ balance, as well as power.

3 - The abbreviated, straight-up takeback motion is good, but you may want to sync it up w/ the ball toss. You're bringing the racquet up, then starting the toss.

A good reference for all 3 of the above suggestions is Patrick Rafter's serve:

Thanks, Mclovin!

will take note, film sideways and post back.

Ultimately I want a long take back like Federer's, I am practicing with abbreviated take back because I feel the long take back screws up timing sometimes. But I'll finally try learn a correct long take back.

Little observation, your serving arm goes past the plane of your shoulders (overextension of right pec), I've been told to keep my shoulders and arms in line with each other during the trophy position.

No suggestions, take this with a grain of salt.

suryanaga said:

Little observation, your serving arm goes past the plane of your shoulders (overextension of right pec), I've been told to keep my shoulders and arms in line with each other during the trophy position.

No suggestions, take this with a grain of salt.

Click to expand...

this is actually very good point. I noticed that before and I know it is bad. any drills/mental hints to fix that?

I do the same type of serve motion and the main thing is to keep the racquet moving at all times. It looks like you are pausing. there is no real trophy pose. It is simply a freeze frame shot.

Power Player said:

It looks like you are pausing.

Click to expand...

Thanks Power Player,
I bring my right arm up first to simplify the motion. Is this the pause you meant?

I think if you can get more legs involved, then it will help your racket drop
to be lower behind your back and raise your contact point.
This will give you a longer power stroke, while also giving you a better angle
to the svc box.

Also you could use a bit of ISR near contact, which also could be aided by getting
the legs more in it Imo.

Overall I thought it looked pretty nice though!

taurussable said:

Thanks Power Player,
I bring my right arm up first to simplify the motion. Is this the pause you meant?

Click to expand...

Yes, but that is ok, I do that too. It just seems like you pause right after. The motion you want is to bring the arm up and then bring the racquet back over your head into the racquuet drop, then swing to contact - all without a hitch or pause. If you are doing this, than it may just be the slo mo throwing me off, but it looks like you pause and lose racquet speed.

I think the ISR that was mentioned will come from this. At least, for me it did.

Power Player said:

I think the ISR that was mentioned will come from this. At least, for me it did.

Click to expand...

Likely the racket drop would benefit as well from your suggestion.

Power Player said:

I do the same type of serve motion and the main thing is to keep the racquet moving at all times. It looks like you are pausing. there is no real trophy pose. It is simply a freeze frame shot.

Click to expand...

Power Player said:

Yes, but that is ok, I do that too. It just seems like you pause right after. The motion you want is to bring the arm up and then bring the racquet back over your head into the racquuet drop, then swing to contact - all without a hitch or pause. If you are doing this, than it may just be the slo mo throwing me off, but it looks like you pause and lose racquet speed.

Click to expand...

Yes, this is what I meant in my #3 suggestion when I said he needs to sync it up w/ the ball toss.. Compare to the Rafter video I posted, who's racquet is continually in motion.

I think I got it regarding the "sync up" and pause now.

will research ISR. Thanks again.

updated with side view. Please critique. Thx!

Lack said:

Try not to foot fault

Click to expand...

Rec games don't call for ff enough. That is the prob!

martini1 said:

Rec games don't call for ff enough. That is the prob!

Click to expand...

sometimes it is my toss too inconsistent, need move my foot to catch the ball lol.

fixing my foot will have additional benifit fixing my toss.

OK, this view gives a good indication of what I meant when I said:

McLovin said:

Judging from where you start and where you land, I'd guess your toss is either straight-up or worse, behind you. Ideally, if you toss the ball but don't hit it, the ball should land ~ 1-2ft inside the court.

Click to expand...

One convenient item about your camera placement is that the far lamppost aligns perfectly w/ the baseline, so we can get a nice look at the toss' trajectory.

Look at the serves at timestamps 0:30, 0:46 & 2:28. Follow the balls trajectory and notice that is pretty much follows the lamppost up & down. As a result, all you energy is going up when you hit it.

You get better at 1:10 & 1:28, but your footfault pretty much negates the toss as you've compensated for the toss into the court.

Toss' at 1:46 & 2:10 are real good, but again, you're not leaning in due to the footfault, and your energy is going up, not into the court.

Again, using Rafter as a reference, see this video:
Notice how much his toss goes into the court.

If you must step forward, then take a slight step back when you start your toss (ala Ferrer). I suspect, though, that the reason for the footfault is you are actually tossing the ball correctly, but aren't comfortable leaning in, so you step forward to compensate. Focus on a toss into the court, along with keeping your front foot stationary, and you'll see much better serves.

taurussable said:

this is actually very good point. I noticed that before and I know it is bad. any drills/mental hints to fix that?

Click to expand...

Perhaps try serving from a trophy position without using any knee bend, and try to generate power from the inner shoulder rotation/pronation alone. See if you can cut out everything but that action and isolate it. Once you can do it without having to overextend your chest, add in your torso rotation. If you can do that without any inefficiencies in your motion, add in your leg bend. Then, add in your service footwork (platform or pinpoint positioning). Then finally, add your racquet take back.

Again take this with a grain of salt, and consult a pro as needed.