federer modeled his serve from borg, becker or sampras?

dominikk1985 · Oct 4, 2013

Isn't the high elbow typical for a kick serve?

you will rotate less and probably use a stronger internal rotation of the arm to generate the spin.

Say Chi Sin Lo · Oct 4, 2013

Topspin Shot said:
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Stosur/Santoro finish either, but "ugly" is a strong word.

It just looks like it'll hurt, that's where I'm coming from.

Raul_SJ · Oct 4, 2013

SystemicAnomaly said:
The Salzenstein slice serve is a bit different. It looks like he carves around (the outside of) the ball and it "appears" that he does not pronate. He does not finish with a high elbow but it does bend a tad later during the follow-thru. Upon close inspection of his "no-pronation" slice serve in slow-motion, he actually does rotate outward (pronate) slightly before coming around with the "carving" finish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-55rCazxA4

Does Sampras get to a similar high elbow position for his slice serve?

All of Sampras' tosses seem to be approximately over his head or to the left. He doesn't seem to toss to the two o'clock position that many players use for their slice serve.

I can't find a video comparing Sampras' flat, kick and slice serve motions.
They all look similar... Maybe Sampras uses more of a "Topspin/Slice" rather than a traditional slice.

taurussable · Oct 6, 2013

Raul_SJ said:
All of Sampras' tosses seem to be approximately over his head or to the left.

regarding "over his head and to his left"

The following picture shows his contact point is not exactly above his head. The contact point is a little to right of his head, about inline with his right shoulder.

psv255 · Oct 6, 2013

taurussable said:
regarding "over his head and to his left"
The following picture shows his contact point is not exactly above his head. The contact point is a little to right of his head, about inline with his right shoulder.

The toss is judged relative to the head when the server has only let go of the ball. Sampras already moved his head and torso out of the way in the picture, more left, so he still gets the hitting zone up and to the right although his toss is more left than most.

taurussable · Oct 6, 2013

psv255 said:
The toss is judged relative to the head when the server has only let go of the ball. Sampras already moved his head and torso out of the way in the picture, more left, so he still gets the hitting zone up and to the right although his toss is more left than most.

Sampras toss seems a typical high Jtoss. I don't think his toss is that to the left compared with other J tossers.

psv255 · Oct 6, 2013

taurussable said:
Sampras toss seems a typical high Jtoss. I don't think his toss is that to the left compared with other J tossers.

Yeah looking at that particular video, you're right, it looks like right side all the way. It seemed to me that because his shoulders cartwheel more vertically than most, he would naturally need a more central/leftward toss location. Maybe it's a feel thing vs. what's actually happening.

taurussable · Oct 6, 2013

psv255 said:
It seemed to me that because his shoulders cartwheel more vertically than most, he would naturally need a more central/leftward toss location.

+1 on this. in another word, "steeper shoulder tilt" at contact.

Raul_SJ · Oct 6, 2013

taurussable said:
regarding "over his head and to his left"

The following picture shows his contact point is not exactly above his head. The contact point is a little to right of his head, about inline with his right shoulder.

Is that a Sampras first or second serve?

morten · Oct 7, 2013

Imo the more you pronate, the higher the elbow...

KineticChain · Oct 7, 2013

Say Chi Sin Lo said:
Why does he need to have a high elbow finish like sampras?

This is the correct question.

taurussable · Oct 7, 2013

Raul_SJ said:
Is that a Sampras first or second serve?

imo, this was a first serve.

Raul_SJ · Oct 7, 2013

taurussable said:
regarding "over his head and to his left"

The following picture shows his contact point is not exactly above his head. The contact point is a little to right of his head, about inline with his right shoulder.

If the reference point is taken from his head position at the start of the service motion, the contact point appears to be above his head, i.e., ~12 o'clock.

When server is said to be "contacting at 12 o'clock", it is with respective to the head at the starting position and not to the position of the head after the toss is released and the head position tilts away.

I believe this is the standard convention that is used when describing "12 o'clock (above the head)" contact points... Perhaps others can confirm.

Topspin Shot · Oct 8, 2013

I've always considered 12 o'clock to mean above the head when the server is in the trophy position. In other words, if the server stops his motion in the trophy, the ball will land on his head or directly in front of his head. Since the toss arcs from right to left, it will still be slightly to the right of the head when the server contacts the ball.

federer modeled his serve from borg, becker or sampras?

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