Doubles - Taking Care of Serve Games

Ft.S · Jun 27, 2017

During the last 4 or 5 months, I improved both my 1st and 2nd serves, they are really effective at my level (playing 3.5, 4.0, 8.0 and 8.5 leagues). More importantly I reduced my double faults significantly, majority of matches I have about 2 or 3 double faults, maximum of 5; of course unless I am having a really bad day, which happens.

During league matches, first set I almost never lose my service game, unless I am playing against really high level 4.0 or 4.5 players, but second set, invariably, I drop one service game. Reasons vary, sometimes those few double faults condense into a single game, or the opposing team adapts to my serves, sometimes all it takes is for my partner missing couple of easy put-away volleys, or me making a mistake either at the baseline or the net.

I considered this to be normal, but I started paying attention for the last month or so, and there is a pattern emerging that makes me worried a little. I tend to lose my second service game in the second set regardless of partners or whether we are winning or losing. It is not like I get tired or lose motivation, at least I don't think so, but it happens almost every match; frustrating.

Can you relate? Any suggestions on what or where to look for some corrective action?

Thank you in advance for all inputs.

LeeD · Jun 27, 2017

The other team get's used to your serves, and returns where they feel they can win the point.
Doubles is FOUR dudes playing, so any ONE can win the game or lose the game.

Moveforwardalways · Jun 27, 2017

Serving is an explosive motion. Conditioning is key. Even a small lapse can take a serve from "pop" to "easily returnable".

stapletonj · Jun 28, 2017

It's like being a baseball pitcher. As you tire, your pitch (1st serve) will lose some steam. (unless you are under 25, maybe) If you have been using your other pitch a lot, they are used to those 2 by now.
Basically, you should have more than 2 serves (hard cannonball 1st serve and 1 spinny second serve). Develop a kicker to go with your slice. Maybe even a twist, if your arm and shoulder can stand it.
Or, vary the placement widely so they don't get too grooved.

If you note that DFs are a problem in that second set, go with 2nd serves on 75% of your first serves, but with widely varied placement. Be SURE your partner knows where you are serving in advance.
A well timed poach or fake poach is often most helpful in generating that return error that takes you over the top.

Ft.S · Jun 28, 2017

Moveforwardalways said:
Serving is an explosive motion. Conditioning is key. Even a small lapse can take a serve from "pop" to "easily returnable".

You certainly have a point; generally I have more aces and unreturnables in the first set. The combination of possibly losing some pace and opponents getting used to my serves maybe the cause.

stapletonj said:
Basically, you should have more than 2 serves (hard cannonball 1st serve and 1 spinny second serve). Develop a kicker to go with your slice. Maybe even a twist, if your arm and shoulder can stand it.
Or, vary the placement widely so they don't get too grooved.

You are right, I realized this some months ago and developed four different types of serves similar to what you describe. I change it up during a match if I realize my favorites don't work for certain players, which has helped me tremendously. Thankfully, I am relatively accurate with my 1st serves and can place them well, a little less so with 2nd serves.

stapletonj said:
If you note that DFs are a problem in that second set, go with 2nd serves on 75% of your first serves, but with widely varied placement. Be SURE your partner knows where you are serving in advance.
A well timed poach or fake poach is often most helpful in generating that return error that takes you over the top.

This is a another great point, I should talk more with my partner before each serve, we seldom do that, thank you.

At the end, I think I am overanalyzing this, but you all have great points and suggestions, thank you very much.

FedLIKEnot · Jun 28, 2017

Are there patterns youre using? Are you able to hit your first and second serves to different targets?

I ask cause I had a similar issue some time ago. For me I found I was only hitting pace based serves out wide or to body which is good enough when I can dial up the pace but as I would tire those balls were now able to be attacked especially if you knew where it was going.

My solution was working on different targets both out wide body and up the T and with the serves I have, hard flat, slice, and topspin kicker serves. That for me served (excuse the pun) to make it hard to read my serves, gave me other serves to call upon, and gave me confidence in my second serve so I could attack on my first more. And that helped open up the court more cause within that I developed my slice serve which seems to be a bh to righties and moves into their body which has helped my dubs with that first volley but again able to hit it to the middle or out wide .... so good luck and work on it it.

MathGeek · Jun 29, 2017

I have a couple doubles partners who need to constantly be reminded to back up for my weaker serves (either second serves or late in the match). They have a tendency to crowd the net, which is great for my first serves, but they are an easy target for strong returners for my weaker serves and really need to be closer to the service line to buy more time.

Likewise, when I'm the net man paired with a weak server against a strong returner, I'll sometimes retreat all the way to the baseline so I'm not picking yellow fuzz out of my teeth. Starting two back also gives the option for either (or both) to move forward at the first opening. Variations from what is expected usually produces a slight advantage and we can leave the stronger baseliner back or send the stronger net player forward.

I see a lot of strong returners who can really make you pay if you position aggressively for weak serves as you do for strong ones.

edathompson2 · Jun 29, 2017

Ft.S said:
During the last 4 or 5 months, I improved both my 1st and 2nd serves, they are really effective at my level (playing 3.5, 4.0, 8.0 and 8.5 leagues). More importantly I reduced my double faults significantly, majority of matches I have about 2 or 3 double faults, maximum of 5; of course unless I am having a really bad day, which happens.

During league matches, first set I almost never lose my service game, unless I am playing against really high level 4.0 or 4.5 players, but second set, invariably, I drop one service game. Reasons vary, sometimes those few double faults condense into a single game, or the opposing team adapts to my serves, sometimes all it takes is for my partner missing couple of easy put-away volleys, or me making a mistake either at the baseline or the net.

I considered this to be normal, but I started paying attention for the last month or so, and there is a pattern emerging that makes me worried a little. I tend to lose my second service game in the second set regardless of partners or whether we are winning or losing. It is not like I get tired or lose motivation, at least I don't think so, but it happens almost every match; frustrating.

Can you relate? Any suggestions on what or where to look for some corrective action?

Thank you in advance for all inputs.

I can totally relate to this. It is entirely mental for me. I don't get out to hit or practice as much as I would like. When I do, I hit almost all my second serves in. During the match, I start to get tense and don't make a full swing motion or my mechanics falter. This usually happens after I double fault. Played a match and I double faulted approximately 5-6 times last night, mostly during the second set. Once during the third set tie breaker.

I need a day of hitting serves and creating muscle memory so it's more natural.

OrangePower · Jun 29, 2017

Having a variety of serves is important - keeps the opponents guessing, prevents them from getting into a groove on return vs a particular serve, and also helps maintain your focus and endurance (e.g. not wearing yourself out by hitting an all-out thumper for each 1st serve).

I like to start out by hitting a few different serves and locations in my first game, to see what works against my opponents. Then I will stick to just a few serves that are effective, until they start picking up on them... and then I will switch it up. I also like to keep a serve 'in reserve' for later in the match and for critical points - for example, I might be serving mostly wide kickers and flat body serves from the ad court against a righty, but then if and when I really need a point, pull out the hard slice down the T.

Ft.S · Jun 29, 2017

MathGeek said:
Likewise, when I'm the net man paired with a weak server against a strong returner, I'll sometimes retreat all the way to the baseline so I'm not picking yellow fuzz out of my teeth. Starting two back also gives the option for either (or both) to move forward at the first opening. Variations from what is expected usually produces a slight advantage and we can leave the stronger baseliner back or send the stronger net player forward.

I see a lot of strong returners who can really make you pay if you position aggressively for weak serves as you do for strong ones.

Gosh, I really hate this situation, happens relatively often at the 3.5 level to me. There are few 3.5s that can really hammer the returns, and I have been hit hard at the net more times that I care to remember. Thankfully at 4.0+ level that rarely happens, servers are good enough with pace and/or placement that it is not easy to nail the net guy easily (at least in my circle of players), but still happens from time to time. One thing I feel comfortable with is my serves are good enough, up to 4.0 level, that my partner won't be nailed like that, but with 4.5 level players, my serves are not yet good enough to guarantee

edathompson2 said:
I can totally relate to this. It is entirely mental for me. I don't get out to hit or practice as much as I would like. When I do, I hit almost all my second serves in. During the match, I start to get tense and don't make a full swing motion or my mechanics falter. This usually happens after I double fault. Played a match and I double faulted approximately 5-6 times last night, mostly during the second set. Once during the third set tie breaker.

I need a day of hitting serves and creating muscle memory so it's more natural.

This was one of my problems as well, still is from time to time. One thing I figured out about my serves is that the more timid I am to "get it in", the more double faults I make. So, as I soon as I fall into that mode, I hit even harder regardless if it is game, set or match point, which has been one of the ways I have been able to reduce the number of double faults I make. As you say, it is really mental, not that we do not know how to serve.

M Pillai · Jun 29, 2017

That looks too much coincidence.

Most folks start furiously on their serves. But I always like to start nice and easy on serves, working on my form (maybe going for more kickers and topspins) and by the time my opponent gets into a rythm on my serves, I will also be ready to crank it up a bit. Also I like to save my energy, and so wont go for my 100% serves (pace or spin) if not really needed. I will show them what I can do, only when I am on a key game point or something... or if I want to make them think a bit... Another added benefit is the enjoyment of surprised look on their face.

When I try to do too much too early on my serves, I feel like my form breaks down not just in serve, but in overall game and ground strokes as well.

Ft.S said:
I tend to lose my second service game in the second set regardless of partners or whether we are winning or losing

OrangePower · Jun 29, 2017

Ft.S said:
One thing I figured out about my serves is that the more timid I am to "get it in", the more double faults I make.

Very common, at all levels.
What happens is that by being timid racket head speed goes down, and the serve ends up in the net. And then there is a tendency to overcompensate by hitting the serve higher, but still without enough RHS to cause the ball to spin in, and then the serve goes long.
The key is to keep swing speed consistent. Be conservative with placement if you have to, but don't slow down your swing.

edathompson2 · Jun 30, 2017

OrangePower said:
Very common, at all levels.
What happens is that by being timid racket head speed goes down, and the serve ends up in the net. And then there is a tendency to overcompensate by hitting the serve higher, but still without enough RHS to cause the ball to spin in, and then the serve goes long.
The key is to keep swing speed consistent. Be conservative with placement if you have to, but don't slow down your swing.

It also doesn't help when your partner says "Just get it in". That ALWAYS gets in my head. When I have a partner that gets double service issues I always say "Don't let up. Don't take pace off. I'd rather you double fault than make me a sitting duck at the net". That seems to help my partners allot. It seems to keep their swing motion steady. I'll just have to tell my self that as well.

Gazelle · Jun 30, 2017

edathompson2 said:
It also doesn't help when your partner says "Just get it in". That ALWAYS gets in my head. When I have a partner that gets double service issues I always say "Don't let up. Don't take pace off. I'd rather you double fault than make me a sitting duck at the net". That seems to help my partners allot. It seems to keep their swing motion steady. I'll just have to tell my self that as well.

That is really the most irritating and useless advice ever. "Oh really? I should get it in? Thanks for telling me, I thought I had to hit the ball outside of that box."

MathGeek · Jun 30, 2017

edathompson2 said:
It also doesn't help when your partner says "Just get it in".

Depends on the level and the players I guess. I've had good success encouraging players to "just get it in" who may otherwise be trying for too much. I also tell myself "just get it in" before every second serve (or almost every one). I don't double fault much. Until the opponents prove they can punish second serve lollipops, my doubles serving strategy is just to get the second one in.

Ft.S · Jun 30, 2017

edathompson2 said:
It also doesn't help when your partner says "Just get it in". That ALWAYS gets in my head. When I have a partner that gets double service issues I always say "Don't let up. Don't take pace off. I'd rather you double fault than make me a sitting duck at the net". That seems to help my partners allot. It seems to keep their swing motion steady. I'll just have to tell my self that as well.

So very true

At the beginning of matches with a new partner I tell them "I make many mistakes, if you are relaxed about your mistakes, it would help me staying loose about mine." Seems to help.

edathompson2 · Jun 30, 2017

MathGeek said:
Depends on the level and the players I guess. I've had good success encouraging players to "just get it in" who may otherwise be trying for too much. I also tell myself "just get it in" before every second serve (or almost every one). I don't double fault much. Until the opponents prove they can punish second serve lollipops, my doubles serving strategy is just to get the second one in.

I would encourage you never to say that. I promise you, they are trying to get it in.

A vast majority of us, hate that.

RedWeb · Jun 30, 2017

Track your 1st serve percentage. I'm willing to wager that it drops as the match progresses and that might be the root cause for you losing serve. This is especially true in doubles where getting the 1st serve in is especially important. Better a slower, loopier deep 1st service that goes in 80% of the time than a rocket that is playable 55% of the time. Echoing a couple of earlier comments, work on developing various serves you are comfortable, use them early in the match to try and identify which ones your opponents have the most trouble with, don't necessarily come out of the gate with your best stuff. Also keep communication going as the match progresses with your partner. They should ALWAYS know where you are trying to hit your serve. Sometimes during a match communicating is forgotten as the match enters the 50-80% complete range then gets turned back on at crunch time after the damage might have already been done.

LeeD · Jun 30, 2017

I hate it when my partner goes ..."let's try to win this game", or "get the first serve in", or especially, "YOURS", when the ball is handcuffing him and I'm standing 8' away......

LeeD · Jun 30, 2017

Doubles today, my partner botch's 4 consecutive mid high forehand volley putaways from net position, me serving. Didn't even get then IN, missed into the net twice, long once, and wide once. I got broken.
Then he serves, and I miss a waist high putaway backhand volley from net position, as payback. Trying to get it IN up the middle, but it went long by about 18".

Ft.S · Jun 30, 2017

LeeD said:
Doubles today, my partner botch's 4 consecutive mid high forehand volley putaways from net position, me serving. Didn't even get then IN, missed into the net twice, long once, and wide once. I got broken.

This is exactly what happened to me during the last match that drove me to post my original question

RedWeb said:
Track your 1st serve percentage. I'm willing to wager that it drops as the match progresses and that might be the root cause for you losing serve. This is especially true in doubles where getting the 1st serve in is especially important. Better a slower, loopier deep 1st service that goes in 80% of the time than a rocket that is playable 55% of the time.

I should track some statistics for sure, I have been omitting to do that, but not easy during matches; thank you for the suggestion.

At the same time, I disagree about the 1st serves. What you describe is what I have tried to get away for a long time, thankfully successfully now. Those '80% first serves" are the type of players I hope to get every match, it means free points for me, regardless of net player. I can only guess my 1st serve percentage is probably around 50-55%, but overall 1st serve points won is pretty high. I used to get hammered back with returns when I used to try to have a very high percentage 1st serves in, once I was able to fix this by increasing pace and getting more accurate with varying placement, things turned around. Afterwards, I had to work on my 2nd serves the same way, not quite there yet; spin, kick and pace are there, but placement not so much.

I believe first-strike is very important, and if I am serving, it needs to be a strike that gives our team a big advantage, otherwise it is a chore and risk.

Cindysphinx · Jul 2, 2017

A couple of things.

First, I think five double-fault in a doubles match is a lot. If I hit five doubles in a match, I am having a catastrophic serving night. If you have a good spin serve for your second, you should be making those serves. If you get a chance to practice, try this drill. Get your hopper, and see how many second serves you can hit in a row. Not push serves -- second serves you would be proud to hit in a match. As the count goes up, the pressure goes up. And then when you are in a real match, you will know to swing hard because you have the confidence to know you can hit second serves all day. Maybe keep track of how many double faults you have in your next matches compared to the number of aces to see if those double faults are worth it?

Second, I think it is a mistake for the server to think about whether he or she held. The server doesn't hold or get broken. The *serving team* holds or gets broken. As server, call the play. Tell your partner where you are serving and what you plan to do so he or she can help your team hold. When my partner is serving and we lost that game, I consider that I did not do my job unless I hit at least two strong shots/winners of the four we need to win the game.

Third, getting broken isn't the end of the world. Shake it off, focus up, and break back.

S&V-not_dead_yet · Jul 2, 2017

edathompson2 said:
It also doesn't help when your partner says "Just get it in". That ALWAYS gets in my head.

You mean like starting at 1:49?

Startzel · Jul 2, 2017

Cindysphinx said:
First, I think five double-fault in a doubles match is a lot. If I hit five doubles in a match, I am having a catastrophic serving night. If you have a good spin serve for your second, you should be making those serves. If you get a chance to practice, try this drill. Get your hopper, and see how many second serves you can hit in a row. Not push serves -- second serves you would be proud to hit in a match.

I'm calling bs on a 4.0 lady having a good enough spin serve that isn't a push if 5 double faults would be a 'catastrophic" serving night.

I might hit 5 double faults in a game if i'm going for it.

Ft.S · Jul 2, 2017

Cindysphinx said:
A couple of things.

First, I think five double-fault in a doubles match is a lot. If I hit five doubles in a match, I am having a catastrophic serving night. If you have a good spin serve for your second, you should be making those serves. If you get a chance to practice, try this drill. Get your hopper, and see how many second serves you can hit in a row. Not push serves -- second serves you would be proud to hit in a match. As the count goes up, the pressure goes up. And then when you are in a real match, you will know to swing hard because you have the confidence to know you can hit second serves all day. Maybe keep track of how many double faults you have in your next matches compared to the number of aces to see if those double faults are worth it?

Second, I think it is a mistake for the server to think about whether he or she held. The server doesn't hold or get broken. The *serving team* holds or gets broken. As server, call the play. Tell your partner where you are serving and what you plan to do so he or she can help your team hold. When my partner is serving and we lost that game, I consider that I did not do my job unless I hit at least two strong shots/winners of the four we need to win the game.

Third, getting broken isn't the end of the world. Shake it off, focus up, and break back.

First, thank you for you input.

Secondly, you may be right about the double faults, I think my standards are much lower than yours at this point in time

I go for the lines too often on my first, and just focus on pace and spin/kick on the seconds. I am still working on placement on my seconds without dropping pace or kick.

In terms of aces, it varies from level to level. At 3.5 I generally have between 3-6 aces, at 4.0 level 1 maybe 2, at 8.5 I just cannot ace anyone. I get aced a lot more at 8.5

All work in progress, and I appreciate the input, I certainly agree with the second part of your suggestion.

Gazelle · Jul 3, 2017

Won 4/5 of service games yesterday (doubles). Serve slowly improving from rubbish to manageable.

Cindysphinx · Jul 3, 2017

Startzel said:
I'm calling bs on a 4.0 lady having a good enough spin serve that isn't a push if 5 double faults would be a 'catastrophic" serving night.

I might hit 5 double faults in a game if i'm going for it.

I hit a slice or a topspin serve for first and second. I don't have a hard, flat serve. I mean, I could, I suppose, but I find players have more trouble with spin, spin cuts down on faults, and spin gets me more time to come to net.

But no, I don't have a push second serve. Sometimes I wish I did . . .

Startzel · Jul 3, 2017

Cindysphinx said:
I hit a slice or a topspin serve for first and second. I don't have a hard, flat serve. I mean, I could, I suppose, but I find players have more trouble with spin, spin cuts down on faults, and spin gets me more time to come to net.

But no, I don't have a push second serve. Sometimes I wish I did . . .

Ah. So you just hit two second serves.

Cindysphinx · Jul 3, 2017

Or two first serves.

I definitely try to hit aggressively for my gender/level, but I put the effort into spin and placement rather than speed.

But I don't double-fault much, and when i ace someone it is usually something of an accident (I put together a magical combination of slice and topspin that spins the opponent wider than she expects.

In any event, whether I hold serve doesn't depend much on how I actually serve. Whether we win my service game depends on my approach volley *way* more than my actual serve.

That's why I thought my perspective might be useful. I used to play mixed with 3.5 and 4.0 guys, and I think some of them put a lot of emphasis on hard/flat when having some consistency and variety might go a long way.

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