Please critique my strokes!

Hi everyone,

I feel like my game has gotten a little slower and less consistent during the past year or so. I’m here to get a little help, so please, any feedback is greatly appreciated.

me end of 2018:

me yesterday:

ztennisp123 said:

Hi everyone,

I feel like my game has gotten a little slower and less consistent during the past year or so. I’m here to get a little help, so please, any feedback is greatly appreciated.

me end of 2018:

me yesterday:

Click to expand...

Solid strokes. I don’t play with your grip so can’t really give much in that perspective but I do think that you can create more space with a stronger/earlier shoulder turn. With the extra space you can have more time on your take back to do more. This will allow more fluidity before you hit the ball instead of just the snapping motion. (Forehand)


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To better show the backhand place your camera on the other side of the court.

I have one particular video observation that is seen in some high level one hand backhands but not in others.

1) Seen in the model 1HBH backhands of Wawrinka, Justine Henin, Gasquet and others. More early acceleration comes from the turning of the uppermost body and less comes from shoulder joint muscles. The checkpoint is that the chest appears to touch the upper arm and probably does convey forces to the upper arm there when the chest and upper arm move together in lock step. The arm is straight. Later before impact the upper arm separates from the chest from shoulder joint motion.

2) Seen in the backhands of Federer and Feliciano Lopez. The upper arm separates from the chest earlier. See the Federer analysis in the thread, post #138.

Your one hand backhand is more like #2 and your elbow is bent. Your arm can be seen separating from your chest earlier in #2. Compare this and your uppermost body turn to videos in the thread.

Here is a long thread on this subject. Read posts: #1 and #51 to end for videos and discussion.

You should compare your backhand to the backhands of Gasquet, Justine Henin and Wawrinka with high speed video.



You can compare two videos on the forum by finding impact and counting back frames from impact. It is a little cumbersome because each time you click on a video it automatically starts playing so you must go back and find impact. For single frame on Youtube use the "." & "," keys.

On your forehand, you are not looking at the ball near enough to impact. Djokovic is not Federer on this issue. Compare your ball watching to Federer and then Djokovic for a less directed example of looking at the ball. Federer has a straight arm forehand with an Eastern Forehand grip. Djokovic's forehand is bent elbow with I guess Semi-Western.

Your racket seems to get lower on the take back with a different path. ? Compare the take back to your model forehand take back by finding impact and counting back frames or estimating the stage of the stroke when the recording rates are different. You can find better videos or set your camera up to match the video of a model ATP player. Your stroke needs high speed video for an informative video comparison.

Stop on impact. Compare, Stop one frame before impact. Compare. ..........................

Select a harder hitting forehand video for comparison.


Kinovea is a free open source video analysis application that has side-by-side video comparisons.

Venus Williams takes her racket back back low on her two hand back hand. A very good stroke. Most other players take it back higher. Be aware of how you take your racket back and how ATP players take theirs back. 240 fps is a good recording rate for tennis strokes.

You are doing what I refer to as "snatching your strokes" on the Fh.

What I mean by this is that once you leave the slot, you currently attempt to go 0-60 immediately. This causes several problems but Imo the main 2 are #1) it doesn't get the core engaged and working right in the stroke. Swinging fast that early doesn't allow for weight shift into contact. #2) is that the racket rarely can get stable and well aligned for quality contact, so you get mishits and mis-timed shots swinging that way.

I suggest you think of it like running a sprint from a jogging start instead of starting out the blocks from a dead stop...... do it sort of like rolling a stop sign and getting the weight shift and momentum going before the big acceleration starts.

5263 said:

You are doing what I refer to as "snatching your strokes" on the Fh.

What I mean by this is that once you leave the slot, you currently attempt to go 0-60 immediately. This causes several problems but Imo the main 2 are #1) it doesn't get the core engaged and working right in the stroke. Swinging fast that early doesn't allow for weight shift into contact. #2) is that the racket rarely can get stable and well aligned for quality contact, so you get mishits and mis-timed shots swinging that way.

I suggest you think of it like running a sprint from a jogging start instead of starting out the blocks from a dead stop...... do it sort of like rolling a stop sign and getting the weight shift and momentum going before the big acceleration starts.

Click to expand...

Very good points made here. I have to work on this also because I believe I have the same problem of going from 0-60.

Chas Tennis said:

To better show the backhand place your camera on the other side of the court.

I have one particular video observation that is seen in some high level one hand backhands but not in others.

1) Seen in the model 1HBH backhands of Wawrinka, Justine Henin, Gasquet and others. More early acceleration comes from the turning of the uppermost body and less comes from shoulder joint muscles. The checkpoint is that the chest appears to touch the upper arm and probably does convey forces to the upper arm there when the chest and upper arm move together in lock step. The arm is straight. Later before impact the upper arm separates from the chest from shoulder joint motion.

2) Seen in the backhands of Federer and Feliciano Lopez. The upper arm separates from the chest earlier. See the Federer analysis in the thread, post #138.

Your one hand backhand is more like #2 and your elbow is bent. Your arm can be seen separating from your chest earlier in #2. Compare this and your uppermost body turn to videos in the thread.

Here is a long thread on this subject. Read posts: #1 and #51 to end for videos and discussion.

One Hand Backhand - Waht Force to Start Forward Swing?

One Hand Backhand - What Force to Start Forward Swing? I have just been watching great one-hand backhands at the Madrid Open. Including excellent slow motion that can be replayed in even slower motion or single frame with my DVR. Often when I try to swing forward for a one hand backhand...

tt.tennis-warehouse.com

You should compare your backhand to the backhands of Gasquet, Justine Henin and Wawrinka with high speed video.

You can compare two videos on the forum by finding impact and counting back frames from impact. It is a little cumbersome because each time you click on a video it automatically starts playing so you must go back and find impact. For single frame on Youtube use the "." & "," keys.

Click to expand...

Chas Tennis said:

On your forehand, you are not looking at the ball near enough to impact. Djokovic is not Federer on this issue. Compare your ball watching to Federer and then Djokovic for a less directed example of looking at the ball. Federer has a straight arm forehand with an Eastern Forehand grip. Djokovic's forehand is bent elbow with I guess Semi-Western.

Your racket seems to get lower on the take back with a different path. ? Compare the take back to your model forehand take back by finding impact and counting back frames or estimating the stage of the stroke when the recording rates are different. You can find better videos or set your camera up to match the video of a model ATP player. Your stroke needs high speed video for an informative video comparison.

Stop on impact. Compare, Stop one frame before impact. Compare. ..........................

Select a harder hitting forehand video for comparison.

Kinovea is a free open source video analysis application that has side-by-side video comparisons.

Venus Williams takes her racket back back low on her two hand back hand. A very good stroke. Most other players take it back higher. Be aware of how you take your racket back and how ATP players take theirs back. 240 fps is a good recording rate for tennis strokes.

Click to expand...

5263 said:

You are doing what I refer to as "snatching your strokes" on the Fh.

What I mean by this is that once you leave the slot, you currently attempt to go 0-60 immediately. This causes several problems but Imo the main 2 are #1) it doesn't get the core engaged and working right in the stroke. Swinging fast that early doesn't allow for weight shift into contact. #2) is that the racket rarely can get stable and well aligned for quality contact, so you get mishits and mis-timed shots swinging that way.

I suggest you think of it like running a sprint from a jogging start instead of starting out the blocks from a dead stop...... do it sort of like rolling a stop sign and getting the weight shift and momentum going before the big acceleration starts.

Click to expand...

You guys are good. I should have you critique my strokes too. Especially my one hander ive been working on for 2 months now haha

ztennisp123 said:

Hi everyone,

I feel like my game has gotten a little slower and less consistent during the past year or so. I’m here to get a little help, so please, any feedback is greatly appreciated.

me end of 2018:

me yesterday:

Click to expand...

Your forehand looks fine, I have a feeling you are hitting late a lot, am I right?
Your backhand looks fine, but I also have a feeling you are always spraying if the ball is low and fast, or even worst, when the ball is bouncing high maybe slow, you just also can't seems to hit it back with pace, am I right?

If those are your problem, then what I'm going to say is this: You have a great spin game, on clay this would be ideal, but on other courts that in real matches doesn't always bounce high nor slowing down after bounce, your stroke will not be great against them.

Maybe talk to your coach about this, see if they can help you with more concrete steps to fix it.

If I were you, I would start looking into those stuff
1. Forehand core over-rotation, maybe learn more on how to properly rotate in open stance, stop using excessive arm and wrist
2. Perhaps change your backhand grip to be more open, learn how to hit through instead of hit up, have grills to hit low balls.


Don't take my advice seriously, just my two cents

I like your 2018 forehand better. From what I can see the biggest difference is your shoulder rotation on the take back. 2018 forehand shoulder rotation is solid and your taking the racket back higher in a better position. Your new forehand looks more arm and wrist. It looks like your trying to set the wrist on your take back but it’s hard to tell. Take back is slower and lower. I would guess you are hitting balls late against a good player.

Go in front of a mirror and practice shoulder rotation on take back. Keep your arms and wrist relaxed and rotate feeling your chest and shoulders taking the racket back. Try 100 reps a day if you can in sets of 10 just taking the racket back. Rotate and stop, go again you should feel a tight stretch in shoulders and chest. With practice you can speed this up and take it to the court.

On the backhand wing it looks like you’re sticking Your chest out too early. From my experience it tends to open your right shoulder too early and limits your core rotation on the shot, especially with cross court. Either work on keeping and holding your head and chest down more or get your core turn setup a little earlier.
On the forehand wing, perhaps the camera angle is playing a factor, but looks like the ball is off to the side than hitting the ball in front. I typically like to see people reaching for the ball in front more.

overall nice looking strokes.

Forehand ... your backswing does not have a enough of a continuous loop to allow your racquet head to ever really get very far back ... with the handle aimed at the right net post. As a result ... your forward stroke is not full ... and you lose easily accessed leverage ... due to hitting less out ... and more across your body. I'd also advise that on your forward stroke ... you bring your elbow forward across the right side of your stomach a little more ... before swinging across ... when your elbow finally does come out on the follow through.

1HBH Backhand ... your elbow is a bit too far away from your stomach ... and goes a bit too far back ... which means your elbow leads a bit much on the forward stroke ... preventing you from hitting out. Have your elbow touch the CENTER of your stomach at racquet-back position ... and supinate the arm unit out as a first movement ... instead of leading with the elbow. This will require you to position a little farther from the line of the approaching ball ... and contact won't be as far out front.

Basically ... I'd have you be more mindful of what your elbow is doing on both sides. Once you have your elbow under intelligent control ... you can relax what at first might seem somewhat strict or confining.

~ MG

Thanks everyone, definitely some good advice! I played yesterday and today and I’m trying to implement some of the suggestions you guys gave. I’ll provide an update video in a week or two.

So I wasn’t going to upload this one, but I was trying out a few things suggested to me this morning and wanted to see if anyone could see any difference between my hitting from earlier this week and today. I was trying to watch the ball better, have a higher take back, and have a better rotation. My goal is to get back to my forehand from 2018 and perhaps improve on it. Please let me know if there’s any difference!

The off arm should be near straight and kept high. The off arm is the first thing to get up to high speed, timed to stroke. Pull in to help accelerate uppermost body.

Take a can of soup or 1 lb dumbbell and shadow swing the off arm. Not high speed but fast enough to feel what this does. You should feel the arm pull-in help speed up the turning of your uppermost body. Don't move the arm over by bending the elbow. That off arm bent elbow reduces the moment of inertia relative to the near straight arm. However, the pull-in timing and bent elbow might sometimes be used for control. ?

It is the same principle that an ice skater uses to spin up. But she uses 2 arms and one leg.

ztennisp123 said:

So I wasn’t going to upload this one, but I was trying out a few things suggested to me this morning and wanted to see if anyone could see any difference between my hitting from earlier this week and today. I was trying to watch the ball better, have a higher take back, and have a better rotation. My goal is to get back to my forehand from 2018 and perhaps improve on it. Please let me know if there’s any difference!

Click to expand...

Who is your model player/who’s FH you like most?

ztennisp123 said:

So I wasn’t going to upload this one, but I was trying out a few things suggested to me this morning and wanted to see if anyone could see any difference between my hitting from earlier this week and today. I was trying to watch the ball better, have a higher take back, and have a better rotation. My goal is to get back to my forehand from 2018 and perhaps improve on it. Please let me know if there’s any difference!

Click to expand...

Hey mate this is what I think in general. Erratic balls often means the full racquet face is not facing where you want the ball to go for a very long time throughout the swing. Yours appears to go from face pointing down to forwards to windshield wiper very quickly which would give you a very small window to time your shot to give the ball the full face of the racquet.

And no, I don't think you've changed anything.

This is a video on windshield wiper, there are probably more if you want to research. If it were me I'd try to hit through the ball more by hitting 100% flat balls with zero topspin. I.e. mentally attempt to overcompensate and in reality your stroke will be in between what you do now and what you attempt to do. Good luck

ztennisp123 said:

So I wasn’t going to upload this one, but I was trying out a few things suggested to me this morning and wanted to see if anyone could see any difference between my hitting from earlier this week and today. I was trying to watch the ball better, have a higher take back, and have a better rotation. My goal is to get back to my forehand from 2018 and perhaps improve on it. Please let me know if there’s any difference!

Click to expand...

I think it looks better...

ztennisp123 said:

So I wasn’t going to upload this one, but I was trying out a few things suggested to me this morning and wanted to see if anyone could see any difference between my hitting from earlier this week and today. I was trying to watch the ball better, have a higher take back, and have a better rotation. My goal is to get back to my forehand from 2018 and perhaps improve on it. Please let me know if there’s any difference!

Click to expand...

@ztennisp123 I've watched several of your videos focusing more on the forehand side. Certainly it's a good stroke, but it looks very mechanical. It seems to me something is going on from the take back to the forward swing that is disconnected. In your unit turn, you are using that more modern style where the tip is inverted towards the court (versus straight up or even back). You see this with players like Thiem and Kyrgios and even Jack Sock, so that's not an issue. But when you take the racquet back and start your forward swing, it looks like the tip of the racquet never gets flipped back and then pulled forward. Thus, I think you get a less fluid and more choppy swing and probably lose some easy racquet head speed. I could be totally wrong, though. I'm seen people who have these trace programs on the racquet tip path, and this might show what's going on with your stroke. Unfortunately, I don't know how those people are able to do those edits on the videos.

ztennisp123 said:

So I wasn’t going to upload this one, but I was trying out a few things suggested to me this morning and wanted to see if anyone could see any difference between my hitting from earlier this week and today. I was trying to watch the ball better, have a higher take back, and have a better rotation. My goal is to get back to my forehand from 2018 and perhaps improve on it. Please let me know if there’s any difference!

Click to expand...

Do you hit long often?


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ztennisp123 said:

So I wasn’t going to upload this one, but I was trying out a few things suggested to me this morning and wanted to see if anyone could see any difference between my hitting from earlier this week and today. I was trying to watch the ball better, have a higher take back, and have a better rotation. My goal is to get back to my forehand from 2018 and perhaps improve on it. Please let me know if there’s any difference!

Click to expand...

Good form so far so good, I noticed a couple difference between your hitting now versus 2018

1. Your palm (racquet facing) opens up too much, so the combination of forward momentum and upward is a lot more of a spread of 70-30 in your 2018 forehand however it is more the opposite 30-70 in your current forehand.
However I'm not suggesting to arm the ball

Technically, I'm not sure what made you loved your 2018 forehand versus now, but I noticed that in your 2018 forehand, you are more hitting with your backlegs, but your current one is more of your overall core.

I would say your current forehand feels a lot more consistent, the only thing you need to focus on is how your arm is helping to follow through along with your core rotation.

I think OP checked out

Hi everyone, sorry I was away this weekend and didn’t really have time to respond. So I’m going to hit tonight and I’ll try to take a video to see if there’s any progress. I’ve been trying to get a better lag on my forehand, but so far it’s more inconsistent and I’m getting pretty frustrated. I’m trying out a slightly bigger loop where I don’t take the racquet down as directly and adding a little more core rotation.

so to answer a few questions:
1. I like my forehand from ‘18 more because I was more consistent and I was having good results in the matches/leagues/tournaments I was playing in
2. Yes, generally I miss most of my shots long (usually because I lose some racquet head speed). When I am confident, timing the ball well, and swing out, I hit fairly consistently

Here are some newer videos from last week, trying to get a better lag but still not where I want it.

second serve:

hitting:

ztennisp123 said:

Yes, generally I miss most of my shots long

Click to expand...

I asked about this, so thanks. In my experience I see a lot of long balls when players load too low relative to the ball height. Because they are so low they tend to have the racquet head pointed down and hitting up instead of more parallel and hitting forward through. Personally I would also rather see the racquet as a more continuous motion from the unti turn, then dropped and loaded with release. You hit what looks like a nice ball though, so I'd just follow what your coach recommends and continue to make individual tweaks.

Good stuff. Thanks for posting.

Looks like you have a slow drawn out take back on the fh but then jerk into the forward swing almost late or rushed. You might try an exaggerated earlier take back to give you more time to ramp into that swing. Then adjust as needed. But I like the stroke looks like a powerful contact with plenty of potential for more rhs with that finish, just need to clean it up and get it more consistent.

When I suffer from the same thing I go back to the same slo mo vids of Tommy haas fh, who has such a smooth transition from the take back into the swing with minimal extra moving parts. It's just such a clean stroke and easy to understand. He really accelerates smoothly into it - and obvi can hit a monster ball off of it.

Compare Youtube Videos Side-by-Side and Single Frame
Video by Essential Tennis

Select any of your backhands to compare to any of Wawrinka's backhands.

For Youtubes
1) Pick a backhand and go to impact frame
2) Place the cursor on the video - always well away from the time line - and hold the Alt KEY down and click the LEFT MOUSE BUTTON to select that video.
3) On Youtube use the PERIOD/COMMA KEYS to advance or go back one frame. Find frame closest to impact.
4) Always use the Alt-Left Mouse Click to select the YT video to work on so that it will not start playing.

Single frame works on my laptop using a touchpad. If you simply click on the Youtube video in the usual way it will start the video and encumber going back and forth between videos. I have heard than some other keys may also work so that Youtube videos do not automatically start playing when the cursor clicks on them.

Take a video of better quality from closer in for a bigger image. Use the same camera angle as for Wawrinka.

In your first backhand, 15 sec, I don't think that you rotate the hitting arm down as Wawrinka does. It looks as if the racket head and shaft are tilted up not down like W.. Compare to W for a similar height ball.
Looks as if you swing from the shoulder joint and with a bent elbow not initially from uppermost body turn and with a straight arm. Compare uppermost body turn.

You need a better backhand video from the other side showing the arms and racket. The same camera angle as Wawrinka would be best to compare to that video.

Timing can be exact if the frame rates are the same or known. For now, just compare similar positions of the strokes.

If you have any problems with this video comparison technique, please post them.

Everything starts from the bottom up. You've got quick feet but you can make better use of your split step. Move to the direction of the ball and make quicker steps as soon as you can. You want to move more aggressively sooner with smaller steps after. You have a tendency to split step, get lazy, then rush to the ball. You should be running with your racket in the ready position toward either side. Try watching a video of Federer warming up or practicing, his feet are really active as soon as his opponent hits the ball but he's actually very relaxed taking the racket back and swinging as a result of his feet being in place. You're a bit lax with the feet and get really stiff with your strokes.

It's easy to highlight this on your backhand. You have a one hander so you want to turn your shoulders more. Try stepping with a closed stance more often to get more shoulder turn, step along the baseline perpendicular to the ball before you hit. You want part of your back facing the court more. One trick to help this is to put your chin to your shoulder before you swing. This is why your elbow is really bent, you're trying to generate power with your arm when it really comes from the torso and shoulder turn after your feet are in place. You seem pretty athletic, you may want to try a heavier racket or adding weight as that makes this motion more natural. Note the difference below, your were slow and you stretch your legs to meet the ball and use your arm to compensate to hit a big shot. Federer is warming up, moves his feet a lot, then hits a relaxed backhand with proper shoulder turn. He put less effort in but hit a harder ball by being prepared with good footwork. He doesn't have to do any weird elbow stuff because he's meeting the ball exactly where he wants to.




There's a bit of misinformation above, I see a few posts above mentioning specific parts of the body but nobody mentioned your feet. One hour with a good coach should fix your biggest issues (try to find a local college coach)! Ask him or her to look at your footwork and preparation, your stokes will improve quite a bit once your preparation is improved so you don't have to compensate with your arm and wrist. You have to do the boring footwork drills over and over, it's not fun but it's the foundation of your game. You can't really fix your strokes by analyzing a video and moving your arm in a slightly different position. Don't underestimate how important this is, you need a coach! There are so many crap videos on youtube with thousands of views that any good coach would roll their eyes at. Footwork is going to have a much bigger impact on your power and speed than solely focusing on your elbow or arm or anything else. Your approach, take back, and preparation for the swing all comes from your feet.

Happy hitting!