The weakness of Vilas' 4 slam wins

M

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
crimson87 said:
Are we going to ignore that Courier got to a GS Final in AOby beating a journeyman in QF and a WO in the SF? Or that he beat clay court titans like Ivanisevic, Edberg and Agassi to win the FO?

Vilas was denied like 3 FO by the guy that was head and shoulders the best clay courter ever until Nadal showed up. He choked another one vs young Vilander though.

Similar case to Federer, where he only won one FO but could have won like 5 or 6 if not for Nadal.

Courier never faced such opposition at the FO. Also wasn't he basically done by 1995? Longevity has to count for something.
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Making fun of Agassi on clay when Vilas beat Brian Gottfriend in the final for his only RG title. Good gawd.

Anyway subjective arguments about competition are different than when the competition isn't there. The Australian Opens in the late 70s was outright an illegit slam, even more than any other point in history. This was the period Chris O Neill and Barbara Jordan won the womens events. If you want to compare though Vilas to win his 4 slam titles beat in the finals John Mark, John Sadri, Brian Gottfried, Jimmy Connors. Courier beat Andre Agassi, Stefan Edberg, Stefan Edberg again (both on hard courts btw), and Petr Korda. Apart from Connors, Courier's are obviously light years ahead, even Korda is head and shoulders superior to 3 of 4 of Vilas's final opponents.

I honestly can't believe anyone is even trying to compare Vilas to Courier overall and career wise.
 
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B

BorgTheGOAT

Legend
crimson87 said:
Are we going to ignore that Courier got to a GS Final in AOby beating a journeyman in QF and a WO in the SF? Or that he beat clay court titans like Ivanisevic, Edberg and Agassi to win the FO?

Vilas was denied like 3 FO by the guy that was head and shoulders the best clay courter ever until Nadal showed up. He choked another one vs young Vilander though.

Similar case to Federer, where he only won one FO but could have won like 5 or 6 if not for Nadal.

Courier never faced such opposition at the FO. Also wasn't he basically done by 1995? Longevity has to count for something.
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Agassi was a very good clay courter (he could play on any surface) especially at the beginning of his career. Goran reached three quarterfinals at the FO and was the only one who could take a set of Courier in 92. He also beat Muster and Medvedev.
As for his AO wins: he beat Edberg in both of them which makes his runs way tougher than Vilas’ already.

If you say Vilas was blocked by Borg: Courier lost slam finals against GOATING Edberg at the USO (after he had to beat defending champion Pete and Connors on his fairytale run just to get there), against GOATING Bruguera at the FO and against Pete at Wimbledon (after beating Edberg along the way). Cannot get much tougher than that.

Also, how was Vilas denied 3 FO by Borg if they only ever played twice there?
 
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B

buscemi

Hall of Fame
crimson87 said:
Are we going to ignore that Courier got to a GS Final in AOby beating a journeyman in QF and a WO in the SF? Or that he beat clay court titans like Ivanisevic, Edberg and Agassi to win the FO?

Vilas was denied like 3 FO by the guy that was head and shoulders the best clay courter ever until Nadal showed up. He choked another one vs young Vilander though.

Similar case to Federer, where he only won one FO but could have won like 5 or 6 if not for Nadal.

Courier never faced such opposition at the FO. Also wasn't he basically done by 1995? Longevity has to count for something.
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In his 2 Australian Open wins, Courier beat Enqvist (reached #4 and an AO final), Muster (reached #1, won the French & Miami), Edberg (reached #1, won 6 Majors), Bruguera (reached #3 and won the French twice), Korda (reached #2 and won the Australian), and Edberg again. That's six very solid opponents in those two wins.

In his 2 French Open wins, Courier beat Ferreira (reached #6 and won Munich), Larsson (reached #10 and won Munich & the Grand Slam Cup), Edberg (reached #1, won 6 Majors, made a French final, won Hamburg), Stich (reached #2, made a French final, won Hamburg), Agassi (reached #1, won 8 Majors, won the French), Muster (reached #1 and won the French), Medvedev (reached #4, reached the French Final, and won Monte Carlo & Hamburg x 3), Ivanišević (reached #2, won Wimbledon, won Stuttgart, and made the Rome final), Agassi, and Korda (reached #2, won the Australian). That's nine very solid opponents in those two wins.
 
M

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
It is also a total myth that Vilas was losing to Borg at Roland Garros year after year. He lost to him in 2 RG finals, and those were the only two times they played there. So yes he possibly lost 2 RG titles to one of the best all time on clay, only possibly as Vilas's overall results there show he is not infalliable to the field at all, so might well be just 1 of the 2. I dismissed Djokovic fans arguing about his 8 losses to Nadal at RG, including a bunch in the final, to elevate him much further on clay, so certainly not going to give Vilas a bunch of extra points for losing to Borg only 2 times.

If you remove Bruguera, Courier likely gains 2 RG titles, especialy as he was much more solid vs the field the 91-94 period than Vilas ever was. No Bruguera is definitely not Borg, but he is still significantly better than anyone Vilas beat at RG itself. What is even Vilas's biggest ever win at RG anyway? The biggest win I know of at RG is either Ramirez or Yannick Noah.

And of course we are comparing Vilas to Courier on the only surface Vilas was a real contender on, vs Courier who was a real contender everywhere but maybe grass. The fact clay is any debate, already makes the overall comparision a slam dunk. There definitely isn't any surface Vilas is significantly better than Courier on. While we know Courier is like twice as strong as Vilas on hard courts. So that is it, even if we are comparing them just subjectively as players.
 
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bobcolbert

Rookie
Vilas is a very very small player. His Grand Slam victories are not very glorious, he has not beaten anyone, the same for the Masters, his 62 tournaments won are only small tournaments, he was number one but we refuse to recognize him so it is as if he hadn't been, he never really made an impact on tennis and he was less strong than Borg. No, really, a very very small player, much less good than Courier, Murray, Kuerten, Wawrinka, Bruguera, Muster and many others.
 
J

jrepac

Hall of Fame
martinezownsclay said:
Yeah but when you are comparing him to people like Courier and Murray who have similar accomplishments on paper as it is, of course the reality of the Australian Opens at the time (and to a lesser extent even some of the French Opens, including the one he won) should come into play, and makes it clear he should rank below those guys IMO.

And I know from your comments on the other thread you don't consider Court a serious candidate for female GOAT despite on paper having the best achievements in nearly every category both in singles and singles/doubles, in comparision to Navratilova, Graf, Serena, or even Evert. Presumably that is in large part since you recognize the Australian Open status at the time where 11 of her 24 singles slams and many of her doubles slams even came from. So if that applies to her, a dominant grass courter who is still not getting full value (probably rightly) for her Australians, why would it not apply to Vilas, a mostly mediocre grass courter as his Wimbledon and all other grass tournament performances reflect.
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I think the wins count, but if I'm going to rank them, I put both Courier and Murray ahead of Vilas. I actually feel stronger about Murray, even if the #s favor Courier. Court IS a serious GOAT candidate, considering all her achievements, but I have a hard time putting her ahead of Navratilova, this is true. Maybe I'd feel differently if I'd seen her play during the time, rather than the snippets I've enjoyed (like the '70 W final, which was tremendous). I think the trophy hardware and event rigor get factored into the rankings, even if "a win is a win' if that makes any sense.
 
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abmk

abmk

Bionic Poster
martinezownsclay said:
It is also a total myth that Vilas was losing to Borg at Roland Garros year after year. He lost to him in 2 RG finals, and those were the only two times they played there. So yes he possibly lost 2 RG titles to one of the best all time on clay, only possibly as Vilas's overall results there show he is not infalliable to the field at all, so might well be just 1 of the 2. I dismissed Djokovic fans arguing about his 8 losses to Nadal at RG, including a bunch in the final, to elevate him much further on clay, so certainly not going to give Vilas a bunch of extra points for losing to Borg only 2 times.

If you remove Bruguera, Courier likely gains 2 RG titles, especialy as he was much more solid vs the field the 91-94 period than Vilas ever was. No Bruguera is definitely not Borg, but he is still significantly better than anyone Vilas beat at RG itself. What is even Vilas's biggest ever win at RG anyway? The biggest win I know of at RG is either Ramirez or Yannick Noah.

And of course we are comparing Vilas to Courier on the only surface Vilas was a real contender on, vs Courier who was a real contender everywhere but maybe grass. The fact clay is any debate, already makes the overall comparision a slam dunk. There definitely isn't any surface Vilas is significantly better than Courier on. While we know Courier is like twice as strong as Vilas on hard courts. So that is it, even if we are comparing them just subjectively as players.
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starting from 74 onwards when Vilas became a top player, Vilas at RG lost to:
Orantes in 74
Borg in 75
Solomon in 76
Borg in 78
Pecci in 79
Solomon in 80
Noah in 81
Wilander in 82


6 out of 8 losses were to non-Borg players
 
M

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
MissileBackHand99 said:
You REALLY don't like Vilas praise, do you?? LOL. It's okay, I feel the same about certain players
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Haha, I actually like Vilas quite a lot but I really feel he gets too much credit from a lot of people on this site in general. I have mentioned this before but it annoys me how many of the same people want to fully credit his 2 Australian Opens even though they were in the years with the worst fields in history in the event (the same period Barbara Jordan and Chris O Neill won womens titles for instance), and despite that he didn't even come close to contending in any real grass event like Wimbledon or even the Australian some other years; yet these exact same people want to greatly diminish Court's Australian Open titles, despite being by far the dominant grass and overall player of her time, who would have been on her home turf. See the hypocricy and double standards are easy to spot. There are other instances of this too, Evonne Goolagong who everyone on this site loves, people want to fully credit her 4 Australian Open titles which should come under much more question than any of Court's, but want to devalue say Wilander's, or even someone like Lendl's (even though by now the Australian was becoming a real slam, and was on his best surface of hard courts). The double standards depending if it is someone people love (Vilas, Goolagong) or someone people dislike or just don't care about (eg Court) are comical.

So while I might come across as disliking him, I really don't. I just objectively think he is being far overcredited by some people on this site, implying his greatness is on par or ahead of people like Courier or Murray overall, when in the real world nobody believes this. JMO

I readily and openly admit there might be some players I have a slight bias against. To name some Sampras, Kafelnikov, Seles, Navratilova, Djokovic (in all of their cases partly since their OTT and biased fan bases annoy me, which is something that just annoys me in general), but I would honestly not say Vilas is one of those. I just really don't agree with some of the assessments of him and his career here.
 
B

bobcolbert

Rookie
martinezownsclay said:
Haha, I actually like Vilas quite a lot but I really feel he gets too much credit from a lot of people on this site in general. I have mentioned this before but it annoys me how many of the same people want to fully credit his 2 Australian Opens even though they were in the years with the worst fields in history in the event (the same period Barbara Jordan and Chris O Neill won womens titles for instance), and despite that he didn't even come close to contending in any real grass event like Wimbledon or even the Australian some other years; yet these exact same people want to greatly diminish Court's Australian Open titles, despite being by far the dominant grass and overall player of her time, who would have been on her home turf. See the hypocricy and double standards are easy to spot. There are other instances of this too, Evonne Goolagong who everyone on this site loves, people want to fully credit her 4 Australian Open titles which should come under much more question than any of Court's, but want to devalue say Wilander's, or even someone like Lendl's (even though by now the Australian was becoming a real slam, and was on his best surface of hard courts). The double standards depending if it is someone people love (Vilas, Goolagong) or someone people dislike or just don't care about (eg Court) are comical.

So while I might come across as disliking him, I really don't. I just objectively think he is being far overcredited by some people on this site, implying his greatness is on par or ahead of people like Courier or Murray overall, when in the real world nobody believes this. JMO

I readily and openly admit there might be some players I have a slight bias against. To name some Sampras, Kafelnikov, Seles, Navratilova, Djokovic (in all of their cases partly since their OTT and biased fan bases annoy me, which is something that just annoys me in general), but I would honestly not say Vilas is one of those. I just really don't agree with some of the assessments of him and his career here.
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I understand your opinion but when you say "in the real world nobody believes this", I don't agree. Vilas, Courier and Murray are really very close. For me Vilas is ahead but they are very very close. My opinion is rather that Vilas is undervalued. And that his three majors in Australia are real fantastic.
 
BauerAlmeida

BauerAlmeida

Hall of Fame
martinezownsclay said:
Haha, I actually like Vilas quite a lot but I really feel he gets too much credit from a lot of people on this site in general. I have mentioned this before but it annoys me how many of the same people want to fully credit his 2 Australian Opens even though they were in the years with the worst fields in history in the event (the same period Barbara Jordan and Chris O Neill won womens titles for instance), and despite that he didn't even come close to contending in any real grass event like Wimbledon or even the Australian some other years; yet these exact same people want to greatly diminish Court's Australian Open titles, despite being by far the dominant grass and overall player of her time, who would have been on her home turf. See the hypocricy and double standards are easy to spot. There are other instances of this too, Evonne Goolagong who everyone on this site loves, people want to fully credit her 4 Australian Open titles which should come under much more question than any of Court's, but want to devalue say Wilander's, or even someone like Lendl's (even though by now the Australian was becoming a real slam, and was on his best surface of hard courts). The double standards depending if it is someone people love (Vilas, Goolagong) or someone people dislike or just don't care about (eg Court) are comical.

So while I might come across as disliking him, I really don't. I just objectively think he is being far overcredited by some people on this site, implying his greatness is on par or ahead of people like Courier or Murray overall, when in the real world nobody believes this. JMO

I readily and openly admit there might be some players I have a slight bias against. To name some Sampras, Kafelnikov, Seles, Navratilova, Djokovic (in all of their cases partly since their OTT and biased fan bases annoy me, which is something that just annoys me in general), but I would honestly not say Vilas is one of those. I just really don't agree with some of the assessments of him and his career here.
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I don't think his 2 wins in Australia are as big as his other 2 slam wins, or that they are worth as much as the other 3 slams of that time, but he did win the Masters on grass beating some big names.
 
M

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
bobcolbert said:
I understand your opinion but when you say "in the real world nobody believes this", I don't agree. Vilas, Courier and Murray are really very close. For me Vilas is ahead but they are very very close. My opinion is rather that Vilas is undervalued. And that his three majors in Australia are real fantastic.
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'
I have seen many all time ranking lists comes out from major publications. Vilas is always far below Courier and Murray on them. The ONLY one I ever saw that didn't was Tennis Channel's from 2012 but that one was whack anyway. For instance Roy Emerson was #17 on it and Pancho Gonzales who everyone knows is a light years greater player than Emerson was #35, so that list is already reandered meaningless by that alone.
 
M

martinezownsclay

Hall of Fame
BauerAlmeida said:
I don't think his 2 wins in Australia are as big as his other 2 slam wins, or that they are worth as much as the other 3 slams of that time, but he did win the Masters on grass beating some big names.
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Yes I agree his Masters win on grass should get significant credit, close to as much or as much as a slam given the context of the game at the time. And far more impressive than his 2 Australians which carry virtually no value for obvious reasons.
 
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