a week of observing line calls

[tom-selleck]

my club has it major tournaments this month...

anyhow, watching a bunch of matches and i can not believe some of the line calls and i've seen.......... and more importantly, i can not believe some of the attitudes about and patterns regarding line calls.

here's how i see it:

my club has amphitheatre at one end so can see end line really well....

most bad calls are end line or service line (had huge thread on here about calling service line)

20% call anything "on the middle of line or further back" out... one of my key questions: are these people dishonest or are they just under too much subconscious pressure??? i generally see it in people who assume they'll do really well and really want to win (i.e. less fun motivation) but then face unexpected pressure. i saw a tiebreaker the other night where spectators thought there were three straight ripped calls on the end line. not sure i agreed totally but pretty suspect line calls in my opinion. for sure, one was a ripped call, my inclination was another call was wrong and i didn't see the third.

60% are pretty much straight up, but can steal calls occasionally. a slight bias to calling balls out, but not bad.

15% call properly... if you aren't sure it's out, don't call it.... i think i'm in this group for all lines except service line.... alot of times, i'll realize ball was just out, but i realize a second later. my standard is instantaneous call or don't call it do others use this standard?.... we had huge debate on service line. if you look at physics, the ball has to be way out for you to see the space between ball and line. you can sure infer it's out though with depth perception, i understand that's not the standard, but i think 100% of people i know don't take it to that extreme.

5% of people screw themselves by not calling enough out balls... seen two guys at my club in this category for sure. but i do respect them for it.

a bunch more thoughts

something i really dislike is this: i see people who rip line calls but then make a huge deal on making hand signals when they call a ball in, but usually those balls are 3-5 inches INSIDE the baseline.... i take that as an indication of guilt when they make that huge a deal out of calling obviously IN ball IN.

i do get a feel as to how opponents call lines, especially the end line. sometimes i will call 3-4 close balls IN, while my opponent will call 7-8 close balls in a row OUT...... unfortunately, impossible to have proof or even informed opinion on back line calls, but i feel like saying "were NONE OF THOSE BALLS IN??"... i do tend to make errors hitting long though, so it might be justified but it drives you up the wall nonetheless.

watching top A players, seems like there's just much more intuitive sense for balls being in or out (even at end line which surprises me) and often guys DON'T make calls. just assumed that they both understood... unfortunately, you do occasionally have those "continuation points" where a guy thought it was out but the guy judging the call keeps playing..

any other thoughts on line calls....... it's pretty frustrating to see a few people's aggressiveness in calling every ball at back line (easiest line to get away with it) out...... looking for any insight on people's attitudes towards calling lines.

 

[kevhen]

Yeah club players especially 3.5s are bad with line calls. My outdoor buddies are usually pretty good with calls (or they don't get invited back). And my doubles partner is one of those who is ultra generous but then I have always been very generous with him as I like to lengthen the rallies for better practice. But I have played college guys and weaker players who routinely called balls who landed on the line and some were even slow lobs while I was watching them play somebody else. You do lose alot of respect and I can't stand to watch the university women hook each other as they are the worst in my opinion. I tend to play the game inside the lines so it doesn't bother me if I do think I got hooked once or twice a match. I don't try to relatiate but just stay generous and try to win the match honestly. I would rather lose honestly than win by cheating since then I would always wonder would I have won if I played cleanly and would not feel good about myself afterwards despite the win. It's a genteman's sport without a referee in most instances so we should all play the game with the class it deserves.

 

[cak]

I also spent a week watching line calls, at the WTA Bank of the West Classic. And I've come to the general conclusion that at the speed the balls are moving, and the angle they are moving, even some one who's sole job is to watch the lines is going to get some wrong. I also have come to the conclusion in matches without lines people, no one, especially those sitting outside the court, have a perfect line of sight. There were many, many balls I thought were way out the pros didn't even question. Apparently despite my wonderful baseline seats, I couldn't see the ball as well as they could.

I also figured that people do get nervous. Especially in playoffs. Heck I get nervous. So if I'm too nervous to determine if a ball is out or not I call a court ref. Nothing agaist the other guys, I may be making bad calls too. And surprise, surprise, the nervousness goes away when you aren't questioning each and every call. But if you are going to do that, make sure your team brings someone who can ref.

 

[jackzon]

A couple of years ago I was playing points against my instructor on a clay court. I called one of his shots out and I was 100% certain it was out. He walked over to where the ball landed and showed me the mark a couple of inches inside the line.

Since then I've been one of those 5% who are too nice. It's just not worth it to not get invited back or cause bad feelings.

 

[orangetennisme]

If I play a cheater then I call anything even close to the line out but if I'm playing someone else, If I'm not sure I call it in. If I'm playing a friend, I'll call close shots in because the rallies will last longer.

 

[Tennis Ball Hitter]

The top players at my club are VERY lenient with line calls when they are in position to hit the ball. I have seen rallies continue even when the balls are clearly out. However, when they are not in position to hit the ball it gets very sticky and the exact opposite happens ... I have seen balls which barely even touch the line [inside of the court] get called out in this situation.

My standard is instantaneous call or don't call it and I expect this from my opponents [anything else and I'll label him a cheater in my mind] ie none of this "i didn't see it, was it out?" buisness. Its like these people expect me to lie in order for correct calls. If people do this, I expect them to call their own shots out as well [which is not uncommon among the older folk in my competition].

 

[tom-selleck]

I also spent a week watching line calls, at the WTA Bank of the West Classic. And I've come to the general conclusion that at the speed the balls are moving, and the angle they are moving, even some one who's sole job is to watch the lines is going to get some wrong. I also have come to the conclusion in matches without lines people, no one, especially those sitting outside the court, have a perfect line of sight. There were many, many balls I thought were way out the pros didn't even question. Apparently despite my wonderful baseline seats, I couldn't see the ball as well as they could.

completely agree that line calls are tough, but that's why you err to the side of caution... you have to SEE IT OUT. i think those 20% of people have taken it to be you have to SEE IT IN, or it's out, which is ridiculous. and i just see a pattern in it being the same people (ripping calls or giving away obvious calls - latter is pretty rare) ... played a guy last night and i had no suspicion about any call in an entire 2 sets. the guy could have even been too nice.

to the other poster (sorry, don't know how to post multiple quotes), i see the worst line calls being on back line (opponent can't see it at all) and i often see it with the player in good position on ball. i really do think that those 20% think the standard is "if in DOUBT, call it OUT!!!"... hey, i just made up that expression, but it can't be original..... could be that spectators don't have good angle on that back line so we don't know if the ball is good or not. but like i said, same people calls tons and tons of balls out and other same people call far far fewer out at back line.

 

[tom-selleck]

The top players at my club are VERY lenient with line calls when they are in position to hit the ball. I have seen rallies continue even when the balls are clearly out. However, when they are not in position to hit the ball it gets very sticky and the exact opposite happens ... I have seen balls which barely even touch the line [inside of the court] get called out in this situation.

My standard is instantaneous call or don't call it and I expect this from my opponents [anything else and I'll label him a cheater in my mind] ie none of this "i didn't see it, was it out?" buisness. Its like these people expect me to lie in order for correct calls. If people do this, I expect them to call their own shots out as well [which is not uncommon among the older folk in my competition].

i agree 110% (is that possible??) .... instantaneous or don't call it out, and i will always call my own shots out if at all possible. if i know my ball is out, i will just stop playing. obviously opposing end line is difficult, opposing service line is difficult and your vision can be blocked by net cord on sideline shots, but i really do try to call my own shots out, which frankly i'd say 50%-60%+ of people do.

FWIW, i called a ball IN (originally called it out, but then overruled myself) yesterday at my end that must clung to the sideline by its fuzz.... but i felt like i'd be ripping a call to keep the OUT call. hate to say this, but i wondered if anyone else i know would have called that ball OUT.

 

[SageOfDeath]

Sometimes i do that, I think the ball is going out so I assume its out but then I see it in and I have to correct myself and give them the point.

I think you did the right thing, usually I'm really good about not hesitating to hit the ball but sometimes I assume.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

any other thoughts on line calls....... it's pretty frustrating to see a few people's aggressiveness in calling every ball at back line (easiest line to get away with it) out...... looking for any insight on people's attitudes towards calling lines.

Nice, thoughtful post. My feelings are summed up in The Code, #6 under "Making Calls" where it says:
"A player in attempting to be scrupulously honest on line calls will frequently find himself keeping a ball in play that might have been out or that the player discovers too late was out. EVEN SO, THE GAME IS MUCH BETTER PLAYED THIS WAY."
Exactly. For example, it is appalling to see somebody post here and tell us how they are trying to "estimate" if a ball's compression "would have" caused it to touch the line even if they didn't see it.
In a properly and honestly played tennis match between amateurs, there should be plenty of "out" balls that are played as "in." People who cheat on lines calls corrupt and degrade the game.

 

[tom-selleck]

Nice, thoughtful post. My feelings are summed up in The Code, #6 under "Making Calls" where it says:
"A player in attempting to be scrupulously honest on line calls will frequently find himself keeping a ball in play that might have been out or that the player discovers too late was out. EVEN SO, THE GAME IS MUCH BETTER PLAYED THIS WAY."
Exactly. For example, it is appalling to see somebody post here and tell us how they are trying to "estimate" if a ball's compression "would have" caused it to touch the line even if they didn't see it.
In a properly and honestly played tennis match between amateurs, there should be plenty of "out" balls that are played as "in." People who cheat on lines calls corrupt and degrade the game.

i agree.... there should be lots of line call errors but all on the cautious side, not the aggressive side... some people definitely really hope for a ball to be out and then when it hits line, they just go with the out call. trying to figure out if it's conscious or sub-conscious or whether they realize these calls are important.

 

[tom-selleck]

camilio, nice to see your post.... you were very helpful in our earlier line call post and suggested good links.

the sobering news i have to tell you is that nobody i know uses you standard of seeing space between ball and line in calling serves out on service line. everyone seems to use depth perception as their guide.

i remember i got in mini-scrap with KK over this, but do geometry on the ball size and your position and it has to way, way out for you see the space on the court between the ball... if you don't see the space on the court, then you are just inferring, which is o.k. but isn't the standard you are suggesting.

camilio, not meaning to bust you, just my observations... i do know one guy who is pretty soft on the service line calls and he may apply the proper standard, but he's the only one i know.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

camilio, not meaning to bust you, just my observations... i do know one guy who is pretty soft on the service line calls and he may apply the proper standard, but he's the only one i know.

Tom Selleck - Not at all, you're not busting me, you are calling it the way you see it. No problem.
I must be pretty lucky because I rarely run into cheats, the league I was in and will get back into is very well regulated. Many of the players have been in the league for decades, know each other well, and there has been shunning of cheating players and other negative responses. There is one guy who I play who everybody says cheats, but he seems to be afraid of me and I'm sure he doesn't cheat me.
As far as serves go, I have the strong impression that many fast "out" serves are not called by me or against me, this indicates honest calls, imo.

Now for the burning question: What kind of game does Higgins play?

 

[tom-selleck]

Now for the burning question: What kind of game does Higgins play?

i have no doubt they had a tennis tournament on robin masters' estate!!!... or was that with jessica fletcher and the murder at the tennis tournament on "murder she wrote"... i definitely remember the "murder she wrote" tennis episode and i'm sure magnum had it.. now that i think about it, "charlie's angels" had it too, but which angel went undercover as tennis pro?? i can't remember.

 

[Richie Rich]

i always give benefit of the doubt. if i have to think about whether it was in or not i call it in. it's cost me matches but no one is losing any prize money over it so no biggie.

there is one guy i play who calls balls long (at the end line) before they bounce or right after they bounce. like he's automatically calling balls out. you have to hit 2 inches inside the line so he won't call it out. pi$$es me off big time.

 

[Camilio Pascual]

i have no doubt they had a tennis tournament on robin masters' estate!!!... or was that with jessica fletcher and the murder at the tennis tournament on "murder she wrote"... i definitely remember the "murder she wrote" tennis episode and i'm sure magnum had it..

Ah, Jessica Fletcher, America's most accomplished serial killer.
You'd think somebody would have figured out not to invite her to their daughter's Sweet Sixteen party, weddings, house warmers, garden parties, bridge clubs, golf outings, etc.
My memory's not so good, either, but I'm sure those episodes will pop up on cable any week now.

 

[kevhen]

I think most of us when we err on line calls err in favor of our opponent over 90% of the time. But some people try to call the lines too close and err in the favor of the opponent less than 50%. This only bothers me when playing a better opponent but 4.5 guys have good eyesight and lots of experience and don't make too many line call errors usually so it's not usually an issue anymore and if I think my opponent made a mistake, I know that occasionally I might make a mistake too so will let it go unless it was very obviously inside the line.