Close line calls when playing with friends.

[ti286]

I do have a problem making potentially controversial line calls when playing with friends (friendly matches, USTA league team members). I can often clearly spot a ball 1/8 - 1/2 inch long on a first serve, but don't call it out to avoid a confrontation. You know...the kind of balls that look in from a distance but are clearly out when you're the receiving player.

I sometimes feel like I can't concentrate when playing friendly matches for fear that I might irk my friendly opponent with a close call.

Am I being too nice of a guy about this? Can I call the lines as I do in tournaments and league matches (no leniency) and still be friendly?

I don't want to be (wrongly) known as a dirty line caller.

 

[Jim Hendricks]

I've always thought it is easier for the server to call the cross line than the receiver. As the returner, balls that are slightly long often look like they hit the line. As the server, I sometimes let up when I see a ball that is long, but the returner calls it good, it landed on the line. Just call them as you see them, do the best you can to call them correctly.

 

[pvaudio]

Yes, you are being too nice. Who cares? If you're confident that the ball is out, then what they think is irrelevant. It's only when you call balls that are questionable from YOUR viewpoint as out that people tend to get upset. While they might assume that they saw it correctly, if it's a decent shot and you clearly have the better view, then they really don't have anything to complain about.

 

[Blake0]

For practice, I don't really care about close lines on serves or when hitting groundies, but I do when someones trying to pass me at the net for some reason .

Anything of importance, like a spot on the team, tournament match, etc I'll call anything I firmly believe out as out. If I'm not sure, most of the times I'll call it in. The key is to make sure you are behind your calls and don't have second thoughts.

 

[pabletion]

I do have a problem making potentially controversial line calls when playing with friends (friendly matches, USTA league team members). I can often clearly spot a ball 1/8 - 1/2 inch long on a first serve, but don't call it out to avoid a confrontation. You know...the kind of balls that look in from a distance but are clearly out when you're the receiving player.

I sometimes feel like I can't concentrate when playing friendly matches for fear that I might irk my friendly opponent with a close call.

Am I being too nice of a guy about this? Can I call the lines as I do in tournaments and league matches (no leniency) and still be friendly?

I don't want to be (wrongly) known as a dirty line caller.

The thing is, when youre playing a match for real youre gonna call lines differently than you do on friendlies and THAT is really going to annoy your opponents, specially if theyve played you on friendlies. I think its better to be consistent, of course being fair. Close balls that are out should always be called out, maybe get another point of view the next time, if youre not sure if youre pulling bad calls, get a friend to stand on a sideline and let you know by how much and how do you tend to miss calls.

Anyways, I play with a friend who tends to not call say close 2nd serves out, and when the match is tight at the end of a set all of a sudden he starts calling them out............... thats irritating! I tell him would prefer he calls them out all the time.

 

[tacotanium]

if you see it and can't call it, it's in. give it sometimes, who cares, just a practice game. makes you try harder to win/improve.

 

[SystemicAnomaly]

I've always thought it is easier for the server to call the cross line than the receiver. As the returner, balls that are slightly long often look like they hit the line. As the server, I sometimes let up when I see a ball that is long, but the returner calls it good, it landed on the line. Just call them as you see them, do the best you can to call them correctly.

Yup, this is pretty much true. Even tho' the server is further from bounce point than the receiver, the serve usually has a better perspective on "long" balls on the back service line. For most people, but not all, if the receiver thinks that the ball is long than it probably is (since ball that are just a little bit long would appear to be on the line to the receiver). On the other hand, there are some ppl out there who call almost every ball close to the line as "out".

In doubles, the receiver's partner often has a very good vantage point but it is not always true that they will have the best sighting of the bounce location. If the ball bounces very close to the receiver's partner their eyes have a difficult time tracking the ball to make an accurate call. If a player who is close to ball is moving their eyes &/or head while the ball is bouncing, their ability to make an accurate call is greatly diminished. This is why linespersons are taught to stop watching the ball and keep their head very still while their are are trained on the line (or the outside edge of the line).

Bottom line: If your eyes (or eyes & head) are moving while the ball is bouncing, do not make an "out" call. You brain will lie -- it will construct a false image of the actual event. Studies have shown this phenomenon to be true.

 

[OrangeOne]

I do have a problem making potentially controversial line calls when playing with friends (friendly matches, USTA league team members). I can often clearly spot a ball 1/8 - 1/2 inch long on a first serve

I pretty much stopped reading here.

You're claiming to clearly spot a first-serve ball travelling at, let's say, 100-150 kph (plus), travelling towards you, with spin, and crossing a line perpendicular to the motion (not going along a line), whilst you're trying to play it, at an accuracy of up to 3mm (1/8th inch)?

Keep dreaming. If a pro linesperson is corrected by hawkeye under 3mm, they pretty much get applauded by their bosses for being so close (I know a pro linesperson). Hawkeye itself has an accuracy of around +/- 3mm. You claiming the above is ludicrous. It's *just* believable at 1/2-inch-plus, it's ludicrous at 1/2-inch-minus.

 

[albino smurf]

Too close to call is in IMO.

 

[hrstrat57]

Unless you can see clear space the shot is in....always.

For me anything under 1/2 inch is not clear space so play on.

I also prefer to focus on playing the ball vs. looking for an out call.

 

[WBF]

I can often clearly spot a ball 1/8 - 1/2 inch long on a first serve

Your certainty over such a difficult and unlikely ability amuses me.

 

[J_R_B]

At the level I play (4.0), I let a lot go in friendly matches. I mean, we're weekend hackers out here, not pros. We don't hit a lot of great shots. The last thing I want to do is take away a friend's best shot of the match because I think I saw it 1/2" out when it really wasn't. That sucks.

 

[bad_call]

Too close to call is in IMO.

agreed...if i can't see space between the line and the ball (no matter the speed) then i call it in. been told by spectators that i give/play a few out balls. now if all my opponents would adopt this practice...

 

[goran_ace]

You don't have to be generous, just be fair. You don't become popular by giving line calls, but you don't want to lose a friend over a line call either.

Some of the line calls in state league are ridiculous. I haven't hit as many aces in mixed doubles as I normally do in regular dubs or singles because apparently anything that hits the line and/or is faster than 80 mph is out in mixed. Same goes for passing shots. Its like the doubles sideline is a fraction of the width of the singles sideline.

 

[jmverdugo]

You should do a test, take a good friend to a match and ask him to evaluate your line calling, you may be surprised.

 

[athiker]

I call them the same I think, as far as I can tell. As mentioned above, if I can't be sure its out its in. I have to be able to see some court color between the ball and the line. Sometimes I so expect to see a gap based on trajectory and yet I don't, so its gotta be in.

Tough shots to the corner while I'm moving back I often have no choice but to play it in as that's the only chance I have to make a play on the ball. Heavy topspin balls can surprise you and drop in at the last moment so going by trajectory on close ones just isn't possible...I've seen too many surprises.

I've also see it the other way, thinking a ball is going to drop in, but I can't reach it, and see it clearly hit out. Those are the hardest to call out b/c they are unexpected. I sometimes wonder if the opponent was expecting it to be in as well, but I can only call them as I see them. I think its evident by my overall calling of the match that I'm not there to hook anyone. I've found most of my opponents to give me the benefit of the doubt as well with their line calls. Most of the regular friends I play with express more surprise about one of their calls being called in than one being called out, and the same goes for me with their calls. Luckily I've never had any serious issue either way in USTA either. One or two close ones maybe, but really nothing consistent in a match.

I say call them all the same, less stress for you and them.

 

[athiker]

Just reading goran_ace's post regarding faster serves, etc. brings up a pretty good point. I imagine calling your own lines actually really does get tougher and tougher as skill level increases and the balls get faster. I'm playing with 3.5 and 4.0s and for the most part no one is blowing the ball through the court. I find it is harder to call the service line when facing one of the few significantly faster servers at my level however. I'm so focused on my return b/c I know I will have so little time and the ball is moving so fast. Its not really difficult usually, but I'm sure they get a few more close ones just b/c its harder to be sure...especially at night under lights. I just have to revert to the basic rule, I've got to see color between the ball and the line. If its just a blur, well its in.

I can just imagine it could be very difficult calling your own lines for upper level very hard hitting players. You've got flat balls skidding and heavy topspin balls dipping at the last second.

 

[ProgressoR]

1/8 to 1/2 inch? That's laughable. There was an experiment and I think on close calls the guys playing the next shot got close calls wrong something like 90% of the time. We cannot judge close calls that well. If you think its out then call it in friendly or league matches. No problem. But don't think you know when its a fraction of an inch out. Its just not possible. If an opponent told me it was 1/2 inch out I know I am playing with someone who has no idea.

 

[Noaler]

call it out

 

[masterxfob]

i suppose it depends at what level you play and how quick the ball is coming to determine if it were 1/8" out. however, it would still be pretty damned tough to determine if a moonball was 1/8" out.

my policy is to play anything that is close. so when the ball is hit extremely hard and i'm right up at the baseline, i might play a ball that is a couple of inches out. i avoid a lot of arguments that way, and generally my opponents give me the benefit of the doubt on close calls as well. if you do it the other way around, your opponent will start making questionable calls and you both will likely not enjoy playing the game. i'm not turning pro, and i'm not playing for money, so there's very little reason for me to be so serious and possibly make an ass out of myself.

 

[LuckyR]

1/8 to 1/2 inch? That's laughable. There was an experiment and I think on close calls the guys playing the next shot got close calls wrong something like 90% of the time. We cannot judge close calls that well. If you think its out then call it in friendly or league matches. No problem. But don't think you know when its a fraction of an inch out. Its just not possible. If an opponent told me it was 1/2 inch out I know I am playing with someone who has no idea.

Reference please. On the face of it, your commentary is odd since if a linesman (or player) was absolutely terrible at line calls they should get 50% of them correct (not 10%).

As to implying that a human cannot call a ball out 1/8 or 1/2 inch, that is ludicrous. He wasn't saying the ball was actually out 1/8 inch, he was saying that the ball appeared out by 1/8 inch. The fact that in reality it was out a full inch is immaterial. Out is out. If you see daylight between the ball and the line it is out, the distance does not make a difference.

 

[Power Player]

agreed...if i can't see space between the line and the ball (no matter the speed) then i call it in. been told by spectators that i give/play a few out balls. now if all my opponents would adopt this practice...

I do the same thing. It is less stressful and evens out in the end. I hate calling close lines, I'd rather give it to the opponent and hope he gives me the same courtesy.

 

[new_tennis_player]

Too close to call is in IMO.

You are absolutely correct:

http://www.usta.com/Improve-Your-Game/Rules/Rules-and-Line-Calls/Line_Calls/

Q. If the ball lands out of the boundaries but part of the ball is hanging over the line is the ball in or out? For example if 2 percent of the ball is hanging over the line and no part of the ball is actually touching the line is the ball in or out?

A. If ANY part of the ball touches any part of the line, then it is IN. Always. This has been a recurring question lately, so I hope this answer will clear up some confusion. There is nothing subjective about a line call. If you are not positive, give the benefit of doubt to your opponent.

Q. My question has to do with the ball falling on the line. I understand that if the ball falls on the line, it is considered good, and if doubt exists, it should be considered good. My question is just exactly what is considered "on the line". If the whole of the ball falls directly on the center of the line, I would call that good. And, of course, if the ball hits the line further in, it would be called good. But what if the ball hits the line a little closer towards being out rather than the center of the line?

A. If the ball is 99% out and only 1% in, then it is considered 100% in. If any part of the ball touches any part of the line, then it is always good.

If you are not completely positive that a ball is entirely out, then offer the benefit of doubt to your opponent. If you do this to him, then he will more likely do this to you on future close calls.


....In other words, if you are NOT 100% CERTAIN the ball is out, then the ball is in.

Also, you are not supposed to make calls on the opposite side of the court, even if you think your line of sight is superior to your opponent's on that particular shot.

Someone also asked about compression of the ball, and the answer was the same: if the ball is even 1% or even .0001% in I suppose, it is the same as being 100% in. You have to be absolutely certain the ball was out for the ball to be called out.

 

[Larrysümmers]

My problem is that I'm so focussed on hitting it, that even when It is out I still hit it and by the time it clicks that the ball was out the ball is already flying off my racket...

 

[Falloutjr]

I always give close balls to my opponent (balls where I can't see any space between the ball and the line) no matter the circumstance. Just too hard to get that good a look while trying to make a play on the ball on every shot. If I'm near the back of the baseline, calls are easy to make though.

 

[thebuffman]

OP on those super close calls man why not just continue to PLAY TENNIS like you are doing.

this topic is something that really bugs me. when playing especially against those line hawks who NEVER give any benefit of doubt, it is like they are obsessed with screaming "OUT!"

but then again i am a very lenient caller cuz i just want to play. i hate stopping a good rally because the ball might or might not have caught the outside line. however i play against friends who seem relieved whenever the ball comes close to the line as they get to claim the point.

 

[callmethedoctor]

I've always thought it is easier for the server to call the cross line than the receiver.

I know, right?

Anything of importance, like a spot on the team, tournament match, etc I'll call anything I firmly believe out as out. If I'm not sure, most of the times I'll call it in. The key is to make sure you are behind your calls and don't have second thoughts.

This is absolutely true.

Anyways, I play with a friend who tends to not call say close 2nd serves out, and when the match is tight at the end of a set all of a sudden he starts calling them out............... thats irritating! I tell him would prefer he calls them out all the time.

You're right, that is annoying, and you kinda feel bad calling one out if you've been calling them in before.

if you see it and can't call it, it's in.

Yep.

At the level I play (4.0), I let a lot go in friendly matches. I mean, we're weekend hackers out here, not pros. We don't hit a lot of great shots. The last thing I want to do is take away a friend's best shot of the match because I think I saw it 1/2" out when it really wasn't. That sucks.

Well said.

I call them the same I think, as far as I can tell. As mentioned above, if I can't be sure its out its in. I have to be able to see some court color between the ball and the line. Sometimes I so expect to see a gap based on trajectory and yet I don't, so its gotta be in.

That's a good way to tell if it's in unless the ball has a lot of pace or is coming in your direction.

I can just imagine it could be very difficult calling your own lines for upper level very hard hitting players. You've got flat balls skidding and heavy topspin balls dipping at the last second.

Good thing I'm a 3.5 .

my policy is to play anything that is close. so when the ball is hit extremely hard and i'm right up at the baseline, i might play a ball that is a couple of inches out. i avoid a lot of arguments that way, and generally my opponents give me the benefit of the doubt on close calls as well. if you do it the other way around, your opponent will start making questionable calls and you both will likely not enjoy playing the game. i'm not turning pro, and i'm not playing for money, so there's very little reason for me to be so serious and possibly make an ass out of myself.

Same way I play, very well put.

On the face of it, your commentary is odd since if a linesman (or player) was absolutely terrible at line calls they should get 50% of them correct (not 10%).

That's what I thought when I saw that stat too...


In general, preventing a fight is more important than one measly point in a tennis match. Maybe not even a point (if it was a first serve, or if you returned the close call). In friendly matches I always always give it to my opponent. Can't say the same in competitive ones though . My friends most often give me the close balls too, even if we both know it was out, we still play it if no immediate call was made and the point continued. We're here for fun, right?

 

[ProgressoR]

Reference please. On the face of it, your commentary is odd since if a linesman (or player) was absolutely terrible at line calls they should get 50% of them correct (not 10%).

As to implying that a human cannot call a ball out 1/8 or 1/2 inch, that is ludicrous. He wasn't saying the ball was actually out 1/8 inch, he was saying that the ball appeared out by 1/8 inch. The fact that in reality it was out a full inch is immaterial. Out is out. If you see daylight between the ball and the line it is out, the distance does not make a difference.

I read it in one of Vic Braden's books. I think in mental tennis. There is a reference in this article

http://www.sportsci.org/news/ferret/visionreview/visionreview.html

and I quote from the article here

Braden (1983) found that tennis player vantage points for observing the serve were less reliable (11 percent error with a mean error of 5 inches)


That is 11 percent of calls from players were wrong. Mean error is 5 inches. Think about it. And here we are talking of 1/8 inches. The natural conclusion is that OP is has freakish eyesight and judgment or is just plain wrong most (if not all) the time on his view that the ball is 1/8 - 1/2 inches out.

 

[bhupaes]

OP on those super close calls man why not just continue to PLAY TENNIS like you are doing.

this topic is something that really bugs me. when playing especially against those line hawks who NEVER give any benefit of doubt, it is like they are obsessed with screaming "OUT!"

but then again i am a very lenient caller cuz i just want to play. i hate stopping a good rally because the ball might or might not have caught the outside line. however i play against friends who seem relieved whenever the ball comes close to the line as they get to claim the point.

Hey man, do you and I have the same friends?

I agree with you - I also go easy on close calls. I can't tell you how many times I've seen shots landing on the line getting called out from the other side of the court, from where there's no chance of knowing what happened. I just make a joke and continue to play... "Hey, if you are that desperate to win I'll give you the point!" That said, if there was some money riding on the outcome, I might behave differently. :twisted:

 

[Manus Domini]

If it's close I'll call it out. If it's really close, I call it out, then immediately replay point in my head and correct myself and give opponent option to replay point or take the out call.

 

[LuckyR]

I read it in one of Vic Braden's books. I think in mental tennis. There is a reference in this article

http://www.sportsci.org/news/ferret/visionreview/visionreview.html

and I quote from the article here

Braden (1983) found that tennis player vantage points for observing the serve were less reliable (11 percent error with a mean error of 5 inches)


That is 11 percent of calls from players were wrong. Mean error is 5 inches. Think about it. And here we are talking of 1/8 inches. The natural conclusion is that OP is has freakish eyesight and judgment or is just plain wrong most (if not all) the time on his view that the ball is 1/8 - 1/2 inches out.

Even if you take Braden's data as accurate (and I wouldn't use 1983 data from a renowned benchtop researcher like Vic Braden as gospel necessarily), saying a linesman has a 11% better chance (say 86% vs 97% correct calls) of making a correct line call than a player (which is what Vic is saying) is again immaterial for the 99%+ of us who don't have the linesman option.

The thing with tennis is that it is not required to know exactly where the ball lands, it is only required to know if it lands in or not. The fact remains that if you can see court between the ball and the line IT IS OUT. Whether it is 1/8 inch out or 5 inches out, matters to eye researchers and to Vic Braden, but it doesn't matter to tennis or to the OP.

 

[ProgressoR]

^^ make what you will of the stats and observations, I am only relaying them. If i see a ball is out i call it, sure, doesnt matter if its less than an inch as long as i am 100% sure.

I had an issue with some of the things stated by OP, but no drama, wont lose any sleep over it, just that sometimes even if we think we are right, we are wrong. We are very fallible. We cant even judge where the ball lands accurately. As long as you are consistent and fair, it can never be an issue with reasonable opponents.

 

[OrangeOne]

Just even thinking about the trajectory of the ball.... anything less than an inch or so must be the brain 'constructing' an image, as from the angle behind the ball, for the first 'while' we actually have the ball blocking the line as it comes towards us.

Even more ridiculous that people claim such accuracy.

Agreed with 'most everyone else - if it's not 100% out, it's in.

 

[ti286]

My problem is that I'm so focussed on hitting it, that even when It is out I still hit it and by the time it clicks that the ball was out the ball is already flying off my racket...

This is remarkably common. My brain doesn't realize that the shot was out until I've struck the ball and it's already across the net. My highest priority is always striking the ball...not expecting it to go out.

I'll just go about calling lines with the policy that if I'm not totally sure, it's in. If I'm totally sure it's out...it's out. What happens...happens.

 

[thebuffman]

This is remarkably common. My brain doesn't realize that the shot was out until I've struck the ball and it's already across the net. My highest priority is always striking the ball...not expecting it to go out.

I'll just go about calling lines with the policy that if I'm not totally sure, it's in. If I'm totally sure it's out...it's out. What happens...happens.

yeah, this is why i don't get my underwear in bunches when playing because i figure it all evens out. it is literally impossible for us to track down a ball, hit it on the run and see whether or not it caught the outside lined, skidded on the line or just flat out barely missed the line. so law of averages say that calling my good ball out this time will balance out with a out ball being called good later. this is why i just keep playing tennis instead of getting all fired up about what was out or what was in. and i have literally seen people pack their bags and leave a perfectly good match because of this very topic. grown men acting like kids. in all honesty how can anybody claim to know with any surety about those close calls when even the pros and line judges get it wrong a lot. it is literally impossible.

i was watching a match today and davendenko (?) was playing lubichek (?) [my spelling is atrocious] dav hit a shot down the line that was clearly out and the line judge called it out and dav was like "WHAT?! CHALLENGE!" i was thinking to myself "wow....this dude really did see the ball catch the line when i literally saw space between the line and ball" ....sure enough hawkeye clearly showed that dav was wrong.

now what if dav was playing lub and it was a recreational match with no judges?? that dude might have packed his bags and left the court furious that lub was cheating him. so i tell everybody that i am playing straight up "i will not make any calls on your side of the net...it is your call to make 100% of the time".

 

[Bacterio]

Some of the players I hit with are really odd about line calls. I'm always giving the benefit of the doubt and playing close ones especially if I was on the run or behind the baseline because from back there you can't really tell if it caught the back of the line unless it was really out or left a mark.

A lot of times though players seem to get mad if I played a ball they thought was out and go on to win the point. I'm not even talking about a serve, I mean in the middle of a rally. Yet if they go on to win a point where I felt there was a close call, they don't say anything. I always ask/tell them "well I won the point so no harm no foul, if you saw it out call it next time" and they almost seem angry "well you have to call it out if you think it's out!"

I don't know if they're angry because they had to exert effort to keep on playing a point that should have been over or what, but it's funny how right after I play the close ball they never say a thing until I happen to win the point. They almost seem eager to keep on playing the point up until it's evident they're going to lose it.

 

[BobFL]

I do have a problem making potentially controversial line calls when playing with friends (friendly matches, USTA league team members). I can often clearly spot a ball 1/8 - 1/2 inch long on a first serve, but don't call it out to avoid a confrontation. You know...the kind of balls that look in from a distance but are clearly out when you're the receiving player.

I sometimes feel like I can't concentrate when playing friendly matches for fear that I might irk my friendly opponent with a close call.

Am I being too nice of a guy about this? Can I call the lines as I do in tournaments and league matches (no leniency) and still be friendly?

I don't want to be (wrongly) known as a dirty line caller.

I do not believe you can do this. I have 120% vision and I was able to hit 4x4 inches target from 100 yards 9/10 and I cannot see 1/8 inch in or out. That is 3mm and the ball comes with all kinds of action on it plus the angles!

My rules are:

1. If I am not sure -> it is IN.
2. If my friend is really frustrated and he makes a lot of df - I call it in when it is 'almost' in (I just keep playing the point)

 

[new_tennis_player]

First off, you are delusional. An 1/8 of an inch is a tiny sliver on a ruler, and I can say that while holding a ruler right in front of my face.

Second, if you are on the receiving end, it's impossible to spot an 1/8 of an inch of space between the ball and the line since the ball is obviously blocking your view of the line, you dork!

I do have a problem making potentially controversial line calls when playing with friends (friendly matches, USTA league team members). I can often clearly spot a ball 1/8 - 1/2 inch long on a first serve, but don't call it out to avoid a confrontation. You know...the kind of balls that look in from a distance but are clearly out when you're the receiving player.

I sometimes feel like I can't concentrate when playing friendly matches for fear that I might irk my friendly opponent with a close call.

Am I being too nice of a guy about this? Can I call the lines as I do in tournaments and league matches (no leniency) and still be friendly?

I don't want to be (wrongly) known as a dirty line caller.

 

[princemidplus]

generally in friendly matches if it is too close for me to see and call it out with confidence then it is in and i play it. sometimes my opponent will pull up and say it was out (their shot) and that is fine with me. i just say I couldn't tell as I was trying to play it not judge the mm it was either in or out by. it is a friendly. if it is clearly out then i call.

likewise when i know my serve is out (particularly down the middle) then i call it myself rather than just assume my opponent can see it. in a match i will let them call it though unless they ask me.

 

[princemidplus]

generally in friendly matches if it is too close for me to see and call it out with confidence then it is in and i play it. sometimes my opponent will pull up and say it was out (their shot) and that is fine with me. i just say I couldn't tell as I was trying to play it not judge the mm it was either in or out by. it is a friendly. if it is clearly out then i call.

likewise when i know my serve is out (particularly down the middle) then i call it myself rather than just assume my opponent can see it. in a match i will let them call it though unless they ask me.