Coach Kyril's "Elbow Tucked In"Forehand Drill

[Raul_SJ]

Progression 1. Tuck in the elbow and hit 30 balls.

Progression 2. Keep elbow tucked in but now start to incorporate knees and hips into the shot.

Last step is finally releasing the elbow. Leaves it up to the student to choose straight arm or bent forehand...

Is performing this "Elbow Tucked In" drill a good way to fix the common problem of "arming" the forehand? He mentions getting more topspin. I can sort of see that.

But is this progression drill also a cure for "arming" the forehand?

Once you keep the elbow tucked it's going to teach you to snap after you do this thirty times where you don't move the elbow, it's going to teach you to use the weight of the racket and snap the wrist to impart spin on the ball. We want to keep a very loose grip until contact and after a while you'll be able to do that and you'll start to find ways to hit it harder because you can only swing your racket so hard right from this position with your elbow tucked.

You can only swing it so hard before you start to mess so you're going to start wanting to coil and store energy and after thirty of these you're going to go. "How can I put more spin and hit harder without without moving my elbow from my body? Maybe we can use our legs so we're going to open up a little bit start using our legs and our hips."​

 

[Curious]

Is performing this "Elbow Tucked In" drill a good way to fix the common problem of "arming" the forehand?

It definitely is, in my view. Just practised today, with the SW grip it feels more effortless and clean hitting when the elbow is bent and also closer to torso.

 

[Raul_SJ]

It definitely is, in my view. Just practised today, with the SW grip it feels more effortless and clean hitting when the elbow is bent and also closer to torso.

I couldn't quite figure out why it's not considered "arming" with the Progression 1 gif above... But I suppose it's because you are just using the lower arm, not the entire arm.

 

[Curious]

I couldn't quite figure out why it's not considered "arming" with the Progression 1 gif above... But I suppose it's because you are just using the lower arm, not the entire arm.

Yeah, that's more like forearming!

 

[Raul_SJ]

It definitely is, in my view. Just practised today, with the SW grip it feels more effortless and clean hitting when the elbow is bent and also closer to torso.

Did you actually practice the Coach Kyril progression 1 and 2 above? In the final progression he lets go of the elbow but he does not advocate any particular grip or straight arm or bent arm, etc.

 

[Curious]

Did you actually practice the Coach Kyril progression 1 and 2 above? In the final progression he lets go of the elbow but he does not advocate any particular grip or straight arm or bent arm, etc.

Not really. Mine is rather a feeling through practice. 3 main elements: SW grip, elbow bent-close to body and sidearm throwing. See my new thread for video.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Not really. Mine is rather a feeling through practice. 3 main elements: SW grip, elbow bent-close to body and sidearm throwing. See my new thread for video.

Many rec players will have those 3 elements and still be considered "arming". That's what I'm trying to figure out -- whether this Coach Kyril drill is a cure for "arming".

I'm not a coach so it's not easy for me to distinguish "arming" vs proper forehand utilizing the legs and core. Of course sometimes it will be obvious but often it will be subtle.

I suppose if you are feeling effortless power and feeling that the larger leg and core muscles are doing the work, rather than the arm, and that the arm is relatively passive, you are likely not "arming".

Is that what you feel in your video?

 

[Curious]

I suppose if you are feeling effortless power and feeling that the larger leg and core muscles are doing the work, instead of the arm, you are likely not "arming".

Is that what you feel in your video?

I don't know, probably still arming to an extent but I really think keeping the elbow close to body somewhat forces you to use the body and the legs.

 

[Pete Player]

Arming happen, when you do not - I repeat, do not let the arm go by the shoulder drive and release the racket.

My definition for arming would be, that when you swing your arm by or with your shoulder muscles.

It is a partial kinetic chain, but lacks a significant amount of effortless power and ease to produce ball speed.

Shoulder muscles would only deliver throwing motion - whip-like behaviour into your arm - in a non-arming shot.

A non-arming shot shall feel like you’re pulling the arm - and handle - all the way to contact.

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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[vex]

Blasphemy

Straight Arm Forehands 4 Life

 

[Pete Player]

Blasphemy

Straight Arm Forehands 4 Life

Yeah, well not necessarily. Adjusting timing with bending the arm - or more so not letting the arm go straight is as good, if you are late from your impact point.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[johnwah]

that has got to be the ugliest forehand in the world...

 

[mad dog1]

that has got to be the ugliest forehand in the world...

It’s an effective drill to help those who swing at the ball with their arm get the feeling of generating power from their core.

 

[johnwah]

It’s an effective drill to help those who swing at the ball with their arm get the feeling of generating power from their core.

haha ok its got to be the ugliest forehand drill in the world...

 

[ChaelAZ]

To me that is awful and teaches a bad habit of bringing the elbow in, while doing nothing to correctly position the arm to compliment upper body rotation.

 

[mad dog1]

To me that is awful and teaches a bad habit of bringing the elbow in, while doing nothing to correctly position the arm to compliment upper body rotation.

It’s an early progression that you would build upon. A lot of rec players will still swing with their arm even after they’ve been told not to arm the ball because they don’t know the feeling of generating power from the hips.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Blasphemy

Straight Arm Forehands 4 Life

To me that is awful and teaches a bad habit of bringing the elbow in, while doing nothing to correctly position the arm to compliment upper body rotation.

My understanding is that it's only a progression drill as shown in OP #1 and #2.

The final step is releasing the elbow. He does not advocate straight nor bent elbow in the final stroke. Leaves it up to the student.

I think I agree with this comment from another thread. Sounds to me this drill is a cure for "arming".

The coach kyril drill forces you to rotate the shoulder and hips because your arm is locked to your body.

 

[ChaelAZ]

It’s an early progression that you would build upon.

I would rather see them start with a racquet loaded low with the face down or back, and then go through rotation and swing. What we do with the high school kids.

 

[mad dog1]

I would rather see them start with a racquet loaded low with the face down or back, and then go through rotation and swing. What we do with the high school kids.

Kids aren’t as rigid as adults when it comes to learning.

 

[mad dog1]

I would rather see them start with a racquet loaded low with the face down or back, and then go through rotation and swing. What we do with the high school kids.

It’s not a drill that is useful for every player. It depends on what problems a player has with his forehand. I have found it to work well for players who only swing their arm to hit the forehand. I have also found that it works pretty good to get people who hold the racquet with a death grip to loosen their handhold. If your forearm and grip is not loose, it will take a lot of effort to get the ball over the net and deep.

If a player doesn’t have these issues, this drill isn’t really that useful.

 

[Raul_SJ]

Arming happen, when you do not - I repeat, do not let the arm go by the shoulder drive and release the racket.

My definition for arming would be, that when you swing your arm by or with your shoulder muscles.

It is a partial kinetic chain, but lacks a significant amount of effortless power and ease to produce ball speed.

Shoulder muscles would only deliver throwing motion - whip-like behaviour into your arm - in a non-arming shot.

A non-arming shot shall feel like you’re pulling the arm - and handle - all the way to contact.

I agree and view the forehand as more of a pulling motion rather than a throwing or "side arm throw"...

Do you see any slight arming in these shots?

 

[meltphace 6]

Do you see any slight arming in these shots?

These shots? It's basically one shot though we see two. Would be better to see two different situations.

You didn't ask me but I feel free to comment anyway.
Though I see only one shot in an easy isolated situation it looks like it's not versatile at all. The feel and essence of the stroke lacks big time. Looks like an actor who has to mimic a tennis player for a tennis flick.

Make him hit a ball at shoulder level or above and this thing collapses.

 

[mightyrick]

It seems to me that the coach's video is for "breaking the wrist" (teaching looseness) -- which is critical to power. I've seen a version of this where a student's arm is tied with a rope to his side.

The idea is that by freezing the upper-arm, you cannot get good power without loosening the wrist to get that "whipping" motion. You get even more power if you loosen and whip the wrist in combination with rotating the core (which is the second progression).

 

[Curious]

Make him hit a ball at shoulder level or above and this thing collapses.

I will hit some shoulder high balls and see if it is collapsing. I will let you know with video evidence regardless of whether it collapses or not.

 

[Raul_SJ]

These shots? It's basically one shot though we see two. Would be better to see two different situations.

You didn't ask me but I feel free to comment anyway.
Though I see only one shot in an easy isolated situation it looks like it's not versatile at all. The feel and essence of the stroke lacks big time. Looks like an actor who has to mimic a tennis player for a tennis flick.

Make him hit a ball at shoulder level or above and this thing collapses.

Yes, just one shot. My mistake in grabbing the video. ..In any case, he has to be able to hit the fundamental bounce feed first.

Specifically, I want to know if there is any slight "arming"? Or whether it is basically correct in terms of using the larger legs and torso muscles to drive the shot instead of the arm?

I want to be able to generally spot a rec player's arming error. This error is very typical for 3.5 level player. Sometimes the error will be obvious to spot. Other times subtle.

 

[meltphace 6]

I will hit some shoulder high balls and see if it is collapsing. I will let you know with video evidence regardless of whether it collapses or not.

Real hitting partner, 10 minutes of continuous video. Otherwise: don't bother.

 

[Curious]

Real hitting partner, 10 minutes of continuous video. Otherwise: don't bother.

Why? I see you can easily comment on drop feed forehand practice!

 

[meltphace 6]

Yes, just one shot. My mistake in grabbing the video. ..In any case, he has to get the fundamental easy feed first.

Specifically, I want to know if there is any slight "arming"? Or whether it is correct in using the legs and torso to rive the shot?
I want to be able to generally spot a rec player's arming error. This error is very typical for 3.5 level players.

Compare a table tennis forehand to the FH you posted considering the mass a tennis player has to accelerate versus the mass a table tennis player has to accelerate. See the arm lagging behind shoulder?

 

[meltphace 6]

Why? I see you can easily comment on drop feed forehand practice!

Sure. Do a drop feed shoulder hight FH and I can copy/paste my comment.

 

[Digital Atheist]

These shots? It's basically one shot though we see two. Would be better to see two different situations.

You didn't ask me but I feel free to comment anyway.
Though I see only one shot in an easy isolated situation it looks like it's not versatile at all. The feel and essence of the stroke lacks big time. Looks like an actor who has to mimic a tennis player for a tennis flick.

Make him hit a ball at shoulder level or above and this thing collapses.

+1 in that you can't tell much from this isolated drop feed, but is it really that bad? Usually I find myself agreeing with what you write, but given your current location I feel I must discard everything in your last post!

One shot is too close and look at the ball flight. I think it's the first one although imo animated gifs also need to end up in /dev/null. Second shot seems better although the off hand is doing next to nothing to help with spacing.

Maybe we need to take a drinks break before delving deeper.

 

[Digital Atheist]

Real hitting partner, 10 minutes of continuous video. Otherwise: don't bother.

*Prickly*. Are you out of beer? But a valid point nonetheless.

 

[meltphace 6]

*Prickly*. Are you out of beer? But a valid point nonetheless.

I'm actually out of beer, yes. Genius Atheist.

 

[Curious]

Sure. Do a drop feed shoulder hight FH and I can copy/paste my comment.

Shoulder hight drop feed?! That's gonna be challenging.

 

[meltphace 6]

Shoulder hight drop feed?! That's gonna be challenging.

 

[Curious]

I will try that if the ball machine doesnt work.

 

[meltphace 6]

Usually I find myself agreeing with what you write

Interesting. Usually I find myself disagreeing with what I wrote five minutes after hitting the 'post reply' button.

Good night!

 

[Tennisanity]

Where is @SinjinCooper when we need him?

 

[mad dog1]

Where is @SinjinCooper when we need him?

He threw his hands up and gave up on this lot.

 

[sureshs]

Coach Kyril is quite .... healthy .... no?