Creating a thread to bring a criteria for Servebots

nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Servebot
A player with Aces % > BRK %
Usually a player breaks around 20/30 % on avg. But the servebots can go from anywhere under 10 to 20 % of time breaking serves. They barely break serves but can coast through on the basis of serving.

By this list.
Isner Ace % 21.25 BRK % 10.08
Kyrgios Ace % 18.24 BRK % 16.46 - He is quintessential servebot. There are a lot of defenders of his but they are wrong.
Anderson Ace % 15.72 BRK % 16.07 - Borderline servebot

Ivanesevic Ace % 17.14 BRK % 19.16 - Not a servebot but not really good player.

Andy Roddick Ace % 15.5 BRK % 20.3 - Not a servebot

Sampras Ace % 13.08 BRK % 24.09 - Not a servebot. He can play very well.
Boris Ace % 12.2 BRK % 23.58 - Not a servebot. Worse player than Pete

Danill Medvedev Ace % 10.4 BRK % 27.4

The further down you go to in the list, the less reliant on serve you become.
 
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soldat

soldat

Rookie
I think just the ace percentage is not enough. Players who heavily rely on serve don’t have to hit an ace to win points, they just have to draw an unforced error or get a setup.

You’d probably have to look at points won on serve in addition to aces, and points won on rallies < 3, service games held percentage.

Also I don’t like the term servebot because it wants to imply that the player only is good at serving. I would say every top player has many skills in their arsenal, with varying levels in each category.

You can compare the careers of Schwartzmann and Isner to see if there’s a lot of difference there.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
soldat said:
I think just the ace percentage is not enough. Players who heavily rely on serve don’t have to hit an ace to win points, they just have to draw an unforced error or get a setup.

You’d probably have to look at points won on serve in addition to aces, and points won on rallies < 3, service games held percentage.

Also I don’t like the term servebot because it wants to imply that the player only is good at serving. I would say every top player has many skills in their arsenal, with varying levels in each category.

You can compare the careers of Schwartzmann and Isner to see if there’s a lot of difference there.
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Those who rely on serve are using other parts of the game like netrushing or FH first strike tennis right?

I like servebot, it means the player is good only at serving like you said. It means they are not great once the ball is in play.
 
socallefty

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
nolefam_2024 said:
Servebot
A player with Aces % > BRK %
Usually a player breaks around 20/30 % on avg. But the servebots can go from anywhere under 10 to 20 % of time breaking serves. They barely break serves but can coast through on the basis of serving.

By this list.
Isner Ace % 21.25 BRK % 10.08
Kyrgios Ace % 18.24 BRK % 16.46 - He is quintessential servebot. There are a lot of defenders of his but they are wrong.
Anderson Ace % 15.72 BRK % 16.07 - Borderline servebot

Ivanesevic Ace % 17.14 BRK % 19.16 - Not a servebot but not really good player.

Andy Roddick Ace % 15.5 BRK % 20.3 - Not a servebot

Sampras Ace % 13.08 BRK % 24.09 - Not a servebot. He can play very well.
Boris Ace % 12.2 BRK % 23.58 - Not a servebot. Worse player than Pete

Danill Medvedev Ace % 10.4 BRK % 27.4

The further down you go to in the list, the less reliant on serve you become.
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Interesting criterion that seems to work. Can you please do comparisons of others considered Servebots or borderline in history like Karlovic, Raonic, Opelka, Hurkacz, Krajicek etc.? Also what is it for Djokovic in the last three years 2021-2023?
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
socallefty said:
Interesting criterion. Can you please do comparisons of others considered Servebots or borderline in history like Karlovic, Raonic, Opelka, Hurkacz, Krajicek etc.? Also what is it for Djokovic in the last three years 2021-2023?
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Let's get this very straight. Djokovic has never dipped below 28% on BRK. His adding more pop to serve barely got him to 10% ace rate. Never been a servebot.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Hurkacz past year BRK % 16.6 and Ace % 15.2 - Borderline but career BRK 18% and Ace 13.3 %

Karlovic obviously BOT BRK % 8.4. Ace % 25.5 - Biggest bot
Raonic BRK % 15.9 and Ace % 19.7 - Bot
Opelka BRK % 10 and Ace % 21.6 - Bot
Krajicek BRK % 21.2 and Ace % 15.6 - Not a bot. Between Ivanesevic and Becker.
 
socallefty

socallefty

G.O.A.T.
nolefam_2024 said:
Hurkacz past year BRK % 16.6 and Ace % 15.2 - Borderline but career BRK 18% and Ace 13.3 %

Karlovic obviously BOT BRK % 8.4. Ace % 25.5 - Biggest bot
Raonic BRK % 15.9 and Ace % 19.7 - Bot
Opelka BRK % 10 and Ace % 21.6 - Bot
Krajicek BRK % 21.2 and Ace % 15.6 - Not a bot. Between Ivanesevic and Becker.
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Your criterion looks good to go for classifying bots!
 
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
nolefam_2024 said:
Servebot
A player with Aces % > BRK %
Usually a player breaks around 20/30 % on avg. But the servebots can go from anywhere under 10 to 20 % of time breaking serves. They barely break serves but can coast through on the basis of serving.

By this list.
Isner Ace % 21.25 BRK % 10.08
Kyrgios Ace % 18.24 BRK % 16.46 - He is quintessential servebot. There are a lot of defenders of his but they are wrong.
Anderson Ace % 15.72 BRK % 16.07 - Borderline servebot

Ivanesevic Ace % 17.14 BRK % 19.16 - Not a servebot but not really good player.

Andy Roddick Ace % 15.5 BRK % 20.3 - Not a servebot

Sampras Ace % 13.08 BRK % 24.09 - Not a servebot. He can play very well.
Boris Ace % 12.2 BRK % 23.58 - Not a servebot. Worse player than Pete

Danill Medvedev Ace % 10.4 BRK % 27.4

The further down you go to in the list, the less reliant on serve you become.
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Way too complicated.

Just use hard courts, serve points won career:
1 [CRO] CRO Ivo Karlovic 72.55%
2 [CAN] CAN Milos Raonic [Active] 71.78%
3 [USA] USA Reilly Opelka 71.77%
4 [USA] USA John Isner [Active] 71.70%
5 [USA] USA Andy Roddick 71.49%
6 [SWE] SWE Joachim Johansson 70.34%
7 [USA] USA Pete Sampras 69.97%
8 [SUI] SUI Roger Federer 69.92%
9 [AUS] AUS Nick Kyrgios [Active] 69.62%
10 [USA] USA Maxime Cressy [Active] 68.96%
11 [GRE] GRE Stefanos Tsitsipas [Active] 68.86%
12 [AUS] AUS Wayne Arthurs 68.85%
13 [NED] NED Richard Krajicek 68.63%
14 [FRA] FRA Jo Wilfried Tsonga 68.51%
15 [ITA] ITA Matteo Berrettini [Active] 68.46%
16 [RSA] RSA Kevin Anderson [Active] 68.41%
17 [SRB] SRB Nolebot [Active] 68.06%

Best years for the players would typically be maybe 74% points won just a few times and 73% kind of the modern servebot gold standard. Nole has been knocking around 71.5% in his dotage. The Fraudbotasaur actually wasn't quite that good. Sampras at his best years was probably the most slam relevant great server.

It is a very blessed time for the game that the recent GOAT servebots are all out of commission right now.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Meles said:
Way too complicated.

Just use hard courts, serve points won career:
1 [CRO] CRO Ivo Karlovic 72.55%
2 [CAN] CAN Milos Raonic [Active] 71.78%
3 [USA] USA Reilly Opelka 71.77%
4 [USA] USA John Isner [Active] 71.70%
5 [USA] USA Andy Roddick 71.49%
6 [SWE] SWE Joachim Johansson 70.34%
7 [USA] USA Pete Sampras 69.97%
8 [SUI] SUI Roger Federer 69.92%
9 [AUS] AUS Nick Kyrgios [Active] 69.62%
10 [USA] USA Maxime Cressy [Active] 68.96%
11 [GRE] GRE Stefanos Tsitsipas [Active] 68.86%
12 [AUS] AUS Wayne Arthurs 68.85%
13 [NED] NED Richard Krajicek 68.63%
14 [FRA] FRA Jo Wilfried Tsonga 68.51%
15 [ITA] ITA Matteo Berrettini [Active] 68.46%
16 [RSA] RSA Kevin Anderson [Active] 68.41%
17 [SRB] SRB Nolebot [Active] 68.06%

Best years for the players would typically be maybe 74% points won just a few times and 73% kind of the modern servebot gold standard. Nole has been knocking around 71.5% in his dotage. The Fraudbotasaur actually wasn't quite that good. Sampras at his best years was probably the most slam relevant great server.

It is a very blessed time for the game that the recent GOAT servebots are all out of commission right now.
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This doesn't give any indication of why a player won pts though

It can be due to massive ground game. Along with serve. Eg Sinner.
 
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
nolefam_2024 said:
This doesn't give any indication of why a player won pts though

It can be due to massive ground game. Along with serve. Eg Sinner.
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Well if this list is about denigrating players by calling them servebots then you're missing a big one.
2Qo8.gif


Also a player might have a giant serve, but because they have some ground game they may do a variety of serves including body serves plus serve and volley. This would drive down Ace%.

Kyrgios was/is a fanstastic server, but his return game was bizarre and he also tanked a lot which is going to throw stats (Sampras a subtle tanker as well once he had a break). On the Kyrgios return game he had horrible first return numbers that I've never seen really get good (have not investigated his Wimby run). He's remarkably bad and its surprising given his acceptable movement in general. Kyrgios when he's playing well does quite well on 2nd serve points won. I would lump him with Roddick as players who did not have a good enough return game to prevail in slams. A player who is only returning at 36% points won on hard courts in the prime of their career just is going to have too much trouble getting it over the line no matter how great their serve. Tsitsipas and Shapovalov have this failing.

I'd also say Roddick was a massive servebot. He's hit seven aces in a row plus his 2nd serve was fantastic (ditto Isner). How does he escape classification as a servebot when he in fact is a better server than Karlovic?

Just saw Lehecka serve lights out against Nadal in Madrid with over 71% of first serves in play and average serve speed of 223 kph (138mph).o_O Only 7 aces on clay, but probably the most impressive serve performance I've seen done on clay. Just saw some videos on Karlovic's five fastest serves at 2019 AO Open and he's not even close to the power Lehecka was bringing in this match. Ditto the speed on Roddick's seven aces in a row though he did hit one harder with a 241 kph serve. I've never seen anyone serve as Lehecka did in that match.

Zverev's unbroken Madrid run also impresses (he faced 0 break points for the tournament.) He goes with raw velocity and high serve percentage to achieve great results. Easily one of the great serving performances at a tournament. It was extremely boring to watch which definitely screams servebot.

Nicolas Jarry is notable on clay. I would claim he's effectively the best servebot on clay. Again I think Ace% may be more of a choice because in 2022 his ace% in ten matches on clay was 18.0%. I think he's definitely a clay servebot and the only legit clay court player I've seen that has that feel. Ace% on clay may not be the best metric.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
Meles said:
Well if this list is about denigrating players by calling them servebots then you're missing a big one.
2Qo8.gif


Also a player might have a giant serve, but because they have some ground game they may do a variety of serves including body serves plus serve and volley. This would drive down Ace%.

Kyrgios was/is a fanstastic server, but his return game was bizarre and he also tanked a lot which is going to throw stats (Sampras a subtle tanker as well once he had a break). On the Kyrgios return game he had horrible first return numbers that I've never seen really get good (have not investigated his Wimby run). He's remarkably bad and its surprising given his acceptable movement in general. Kyrgios when he's playing well does quite well on 2nd serve points won. I would lump him with Roddick as players who did not have a good enough return game to prevail in slams. A player who is only returning at 36% points won on hard courts in the prime of their career just is going to have too much trouble getting it over the line no matter how great their serve. Tsitsipas and Shapovalov have this failing.

I'd also say Roddick was a massive servebot. He's hit seven aces in a row plus his 2nd serve was fantastic (ditto Isner). How does he escape classification as a servebot when he in fact is a better server than Karlovic?

Just saw Lehecka serve lights out against Nadal in Madrid with over 71% of first serves in play and average serve speed of 223 kph (138mph).o_O Only 7 aces on clay, but probably the most impressive serve performance I've seen done on clay. Just saw some videos on Karlovic's five fastest serves at 2019 AO Open and he's not even close to the power Lehecka was bringing in this match. Ditto the speed on Roddick's seven aces in a row though he did hit one harder with a 241 kph serve. I've never seen anyone serve as Lehecka did in that match.

Zverev's unbroken Madrid run also impresses (he faced 0 break points for the tournament.) He goes with raw velocity and high serve percentage to achieve great results. Easily one of the great serving performances at a tournament. It was extremely boring to watch which definitely screams servebot.

Nicolas Jarry is notable on clay. I would claim he's effectively the best servebot on clay. Again I think Ace% may be more of a choice because in 2022 his ace% in ten matches on clay was 18.0%. I think he's definitely a clay servebot and the only legit clay court player I've seen that has that feel. Ace% on clay may not be the best metric.
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According to this formula raonic is a servebot though.

Yes but calling someone a servebot is derogatory. They are limited in overall game. Zverev and Jarry are not.
 
C

ChrisRF

Legend
nolefam_2024 said:
Servebot
A player with Aces % > BRK %
Usually a player breaks around 20/30 % on avg. But the servebots can go from anywhere under 10 to 20 % of time breaking serves. They barely break serves but can coast through on the basis of serving.

By this list.
Isner Ace % 21.25 BRK % 10.08
Kyrgios Ace % 18.24 BRK % 16.46 - He is quintessential servebot. There are a lot of defenders of his but they are wrong.
Anderson Ace % 15.72 BRK % 16.07 - Borderline servebot

Ivanesevic Ace % 17.14 BRK % 19.16 - Not a servebot but not really good player.

Andy Roddick Ace % 15.5 BRK % 20.3 - Not a servebot

Sampras Ace % 13.08 BRK % 24.09 - Not a servebot. He can play very well.
Boris Ace % 12.2 BRK % 23.58 - Not a servebot. Worse player than Pete

Danill Medvedev Ace % 10.4 BRK % 27.4

The further down you go to in the list, the less reliant on serve you become.
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Very interesting stats, thank you.

I just disagree a bit about your servebot definition. I mean, why cannot a player be a servebot AND have a decent game as well? For example Ivanisevic certainly could play tennis, but first and foremost he was THE servebot of the 90s.

Or let's say some day a player arrives who can play like Djokovic and has a serve like let's say Kyrgios (just to name someone who isn't extremely tall). Is he NOT a servebot then despite potentially having even better service stats than some of the "classic" servebots?
 
A

adil1972

Hall of Fame
Appeal to Mods

When you delete a thread or post

Pls specify reason for deletion so that we don't make same mistake again.

For example
Thread of Adil1972 deleted for such & such reason by such & such user

Or Post of adil1972 deleted for such & such reason

Thnx in advance

One more appeal pls

There should be one more option "very funny" along with "like" option
 
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G

GodlessEndeavor

Semi-Pro
nolefam_2024 said:
Servebot
A player with Aces % > BRK %
Click to expand...

There is an obvious problem with this definition:

Imagine a player who is considered a good all-around player and is not considered a servebot by anyone. Suddenly this player improves their serve a lot and starts scoring a lot more aces. Now this player is suddenly considered a serve bot which is a pejorative term.

Put another way, since servebotting is associated with having an elite serve plus not having an elite game in other ways, I think the definition should require both of those things being true, as opposed to just saying "the serve is better than the rest of their game".
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
ChrisRF said:
Very interesting stats, thank you.

I just disagree a bit about your servebot definition. I mean, why cannot a player be a servebot AND have a decent game as well? For example Ivanisevic certainly could play tennis, but first and foremost he was THE servebot of the 90s.

Or let's say some day a player arrives who can play like Djokovic and has a serve like let's say Kyrgios (just to name someone who isn't extremely tall). Is he NOT a servebot then despite potentially having even better service stats than some of the "classic" servebots?
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Then such a player would not just be reliant on service, isn't it?

Yes ivanesevic does go closer to this definition with just 2 pts difference. He is far better than Isner group. But he is almost a servebot too.

Kyrgios is a servebot as per the numbers. Even though he isn't so tall.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
GodlessEndeavor said:
There is an obvious problem with this definition:

Imagine a player who is considered a good all-around player and is not considered a servebot by anyone. Suddenly this player improves their serve a lot and starts scoring a lot more aces. Now this player is suddenly considered a serve bot which is a pejorative term.

Put another way, since servebotting is associated with having an elite serve plus not having an elite game in other ways, I think the definition should require both of those things being true, as opposed to just saying "the serve is better than the rest of their game".
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Such player will not exist. If a player is good all around then they will break between 20/30 % anyway, is it not?

Then such a player raise their ace rate to suddenly go Isner mode. It's not done ever. Even serve can improve just by few percentages and over a long time.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
GodlessEndeavor said:
There is an obvious problem with this definition:

Imagine a player who is considered a good all-around player and is not considered a servebot by anyone. Suddenly this player improves their serve a lot and starts scoring a lot more aces. Now this player is suddenly considered a serve bot which is a pejorative term.

Put another way, since servebotting is associated with having an elite serve plus not having an elite game in other ways, I think the definition should require both of those things being true, as opposed to just saying "the serve is better than the rest of their game".
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Maybe you have a pt. Hurkacz is becoming servebot as per this definition. His ace rate improved from 9% to 16%.

While break rate dropped from 18% to 16%. This is recent data only.
 
RaulRamirez

RaulRamirez

Legend
Pretty good idea.
To me, calling any player any type of "bot" is a bit insulting, but putting that aside:

Perhaps, set a threshold at a 20% break%. If a player achieves that (or whatever agreed-upon threshold) they're not a serve bot -- they just have a great serve.
 
nolefam_2024

nolefam_2024

Talk Tennis Guru
RaulRamirez said:
Pretty good idea.
To me, calling any player any type of "bot" is a bit insulting, but putting that aside:

Perhaps, set a threshold at a 20% break%. If a player achieves that (or whatever agreed-upon threshold) they're not a serve bot -- they just have a great serve.
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True. But I don't know if there is any player with ace rate above 20% but having even a good return
 
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RaulRamirez

RaulRamirez

Legend
nolefam_2024 said:
True. But I don't know if there is any player with ace rate above 20% but having even a good serve.
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It's nothing I've ever really tracked.
What I mean is that if your break percentage is at least 20% (or whatever threshold between, say, 15 and 25%) you shouldn't be considered a servebot no matter how good your serve is.
 
Meles

Meles

Bionic Poster
GRASScaraz said:
What about servebot pushers?
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Roddick fits the bill. Isner had a lot of success pushing.

To me Fed Djoko xxx bot are complimentary terms. Servebot isn't really quite derogatory and in fact we have:
Isner and Opelka reveled in their servebot accolades.

Servebot pusher and servebot choker are terms I say all the time. Now these are quite insulting.:cool:
For pushers we have the angry choker and then players like Shapo (and Fed sort of ) will choke under the gun because the high risk nature of their games won't hold up. Raonic was a great servebot choker who against top players almost always went belly up under pressure on serve at the end of a set. Milosh should be lauded for pouncing on Fed starting to double fault under the pump closing out their match at 2016 Wimby; he became a man possessed once the choking blood was in the waterer. Fed has some servebot choker in him.
 
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