Do pros use the kick or topspin serve more for their second serve?

[zill]

Do pros generally use the topspin or kick serve more for their second serve?

Which pros are known for their awesome kick serve. Which pros for their awesome topspin serve?

 

[SinjinCooper]

Topslice: it's nice.

 

[zill]

Topslice: it's nice.

Is that the kick serve?

 

[SinjinCooper]

Is that the kick serve?

No. It's a slice serve that you hit up on a little more. It's by far the most common and successful second serve in the history of professional tennis. It's a label of convenience. Many just call it a slice. Those of us who teach sometimes alter labels to help students understand.

The kicker has probably superseded it in the modern game, at least among the men. Though you'll still see plenty of both. And both are more common than straight topspin, just because movement is your friend, and they both move a lot more than simple rollers.

Who has great kickers? Isner. (Mostly a function of his height.) Thiem. Rafter used to have a million and twelve nasty spin varieties he could throw at you. I'm sure there are millions more, but those spring right to mind.

Topslice? Ivanisevic. McEnroe. The huge majority of the WTA. The huge majority of everyone before 1990. Feli Lopez today(though he will hit a variety of spins, like Rafter). Karlovic (usually). Djokovic. Nadal.

 

[Deleted member 120290]

No. It's a slice serve that you hit up on a little more. It's by far the most common and successful second serve in the history of professional tennis. It's a label of convenience. Many just call it a slice. Those of us who teach sometimes alter labels to help students understand.

The kicker has probably superseded it in the modern game, at least among the men. Though you'll still see plenty of both. And both are more common than straight topspin, just because movement is your friend, and they both move a lot more than simple rollers.

Who has great kickers? Isner. (Mostly a function of his height.) Thiem. Rafter used to have a million and twelve nasty spin varieties he could throw at you. I'm sure there are millions more, but those spring right to mind.

Topslice? Ivanisevic. McEnroe. The huge majority of the WTA. The huge majority of everyone before 1990. Feli Lopez today(though he will hit a variety of spins, like Rafter). Karlovic (usually). Djokovic. Nadal.

Topslice works well for Ivanisevic, McEnroe, Feli Lopez, Nadal and the rest of ATP lefties because their topslice go to a righty's BH.
A good American Twist kicker is not easy to hit well but if you do as a righty, it is a game changer.
If I get a good serve into my opponent's BH esp. in doubles, there is ~80% probability we will win that point.

 

[SinjinCooper]

Topslice works well for Ivanisevic, McEnroe, Feli Lopez, Nadal and the rest of ATP lefties because their topslice go to a righty's BH.
A good American Twist kicker is not easy to hit well but if you do as a righty, it is a game changer.
If I get a good serve into my opponent's BH esp. in doubles, there is ~80% probability we will win that point.

Yeah, you're almost crazy not to use it if you're a high level lefty. But that aside, it's very effective for countless righty pros as well.

 

[travlerajm]

8-2 = "topspin slice" = bounces to left
7:30-1:30 = "topspin" = bounces straight
7-1 = "twist" = kicks to right

 

[FiReFTW]

8-2 = "topspin slice" = bounces to left
7:30-1:30 = "topspin" = bounces straight
7-1 = "twist" = kicks to right

You have twist and topspin a bit confused and mixed.
The more sideway you hit it the more your kick will bounce to the right.

 

[Jens Gabler]

Question: Do pros even care what type of kick they hit or do they just hit up a little more and place it where they want it to?

 

[Easy Rider]

if your serve is a weapon, you polish your weapon, yes.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The topspin serve and the kick serve must impact the ball differently. This impact will show up in high speed videos. But finding videos that show the impact differences is not easy.

Some of the best information available on the subject is the theoretical work of Rod Cross and Lindsey in their book, Technical Tennis.

I have had to interpret some of the details myself and would like to find other high speed videos showing impact in detail.

I believe that both the kick and Top Spin serves will have a similar rise of the racket. Following Cross and Lindsey I believe that the kick serve will have a larger component of 'gyrospin' to its spin vector than the top spin serve. Gyrospin for serves comes from contacting the ball forward of the very back spot on the ball as shown by Cross & Lindsey. I was able to get video that looks like this contact angle and to also find it on another serve described as a Federer kick serve. The racket tipped forward, was closed, by about 15 d. But these serves were not confirmed as kick serves for certain. Without this angle the serve will never have the signature kick to the right seen for a right handed server.

https://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/ind...-contact-position.570272/page-2#post-10865469

To examine single frames in Vimeo, hold down the SHIFT KEY and use the ARROW KEYS.

For both the kick serve and the top spin serve the forearm to racket angle should be smaller than for a slice or flat serve. This angle is easy to see in high speed videos. As this angle increases the racket strings rise in contact with the ball for the kick and top spin serves and this provides the top spin components of both the kick and TS serves. This forear-to-racket angle at impact is easy to see in high speed videos but the forward racket tilt is more difficult to observe for confirmed kick and top spin serves.

 

[Pete Player]

My $0,02

Spin directions

Black - top spin, ball id spinnin on a horizontal axis.
Red - slice
Blue - kick serve spin

This is my interpretion on kick.

The top spin (black spin direction) is quite straight forward and down by gravity enhanced by aerodynamic force from the spin faster than a flat ball would drop. If initial flight is high enough the landing angle gets steep and the bounce is up and forward towards the spin direction. The amount of spin does not make big difference in the bouncing direction.

On a pure slice (red) the drop is caused mainly by gravity and direction will change due to aerodynamic lift pointing sideways. Slice does not usually have the same amount of spin as does the topspin or kick, and the bounce does not create as much force to slow the ball down, cause there is very little friction between the bottom of the spin axis, cause the spinning reduced the friction.

A kick serve (blue) has about or some more revolutions as a topspin. The trajectory is different and it drops faster and to the side more than topspin trajectory. The landing angle gets greater, while the spin axis, spin direction changes towards slice closer to bounce. Impact with the court adds a force effecting the high rev ball, which now is spinning close to slice direction and results a gyro effect on the behavior.

The harder, you are able to hit the 45° spin axis ball adding revs, the bigger gyro effect, the higher and the more to right for right hander it will bounce. I think a serious kick differs from topslice only by the amount of spin.

As the execution goes, you need a lot of racket head speed to generate enough revs for a topspin-slice to make it kicking.

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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[Chas Tennis]

My $0,02

Spin directions

Black - top spin, ball id spinnin on a horizontal axis.
Red - slice
Blue - kick serve spin

This is my interpretion on kick.

The top spin (black spin direction) is quite straight forward and down by gravity enhanced by aerodynamic force from the spin faster than a flat ball would drop. If initial flight is high enough the landing angle gets steep and the bounce is up and forward towards the spin direction. The amount of spin does not make big difference in the bouncing direction.

On a pure slice the drop is caused mainly by gravity and direction will change due to aerodynamic lift pointing sideways. Slice does not usually have the same amount of spin as does the topspin or kick, and the bounce does not create as much force to slow the ball down, cause there is very little friction between the bottom of the spin axis, cause the spinning reduced the friction.

A kick serve has about or some more revolutions as a topspin. The trajectory is different and it drops faster and to the side more than topspin trajectory. The landing angle gets greater, while the spin axis, spin direction changes towards slice closer to bounce. Impact with the court adds a force effecting the high rev ball, which now is spinning close to slice direction and results a gyro effect on the behavior.

The harder, you are able to hit the 45° spin axis ball adding revs, the bigger gyro effect, the higher and the more to right for right hander it will bounce. I think a serious kick differs from topslice only by the amount of spin.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

Compare your view to some measurements -

Click the arrow to see discussion of the spin vectors. Get the publication for a full description.

This picture gives about the most complete information on ball spin and serve types that I have come across. The publication also discusses the state of knowledge for spin rates and spin vector directions. The ball spins around the arrow as its axis. The length of the arrow indicates the spin rate in revolutions per second or minute. AVx, AVy and AVz indicate components of the ball's spin vector (a complete description of ball spin for that time and location). All serves were to the T in the deuce court. Only serves landing in a 1 x 1 meter target area were averaged.

Some points:
* AVx is closely associated with spiral spin or gyrospin as it is also mostly forward into the court .
* The kick, flat and slice serves all have considerable gyrospin components. See the dotted lines parallel to the x axis for each arrow. These dotted lines indicate the components in the direction of X(forward) very similar to spiral spin.
* The kick serve has a larger side spin component, AVz, than the slice serve. Doesn't sound right......but there it is.....
* The kick serve has a much larger top spin component than the slice or flat serves. That makes the ball hit the court at a sharper angle and bounce high.
* The racket stings travel approximately perpendicular to the arrows.
* The publication points out that all three type serves are in the same "octant" or 1/8 of the circle. In other words, the flat, kick and slices serves all have components of top spin, side spin and spiral spin in roughly the same direction, spin vector arrows up and to the left.

 

[Pete Player]

@Chas Tennis, indeed it does, if you’re familiar with vector graphics and 3D-grid. But for many it is close to unreadable.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[FiReFTW]

In reality the KICK serve and TOPSPIN serve are the same, not sure why some people say they are different serves, they are not, but people call them different names for some reason.

There are really 3 main serves:

1.FLAT serve
2.KICK/TOPSPIN serve
3.SLICE serve

Then there are also 2 serves that are basically KICK/TOPSPIN and SLICE but have some more pronounced properties

4.TOPSPIN SLICE serve
5.TWIST/KICK serve


Theres a little bit confussion because some people call the KICK serve TOPSPIN serve, and some people call the TWIST serve a KICK serve, so its a bit confusing at times, but to explain each serve and how they look like:

Heres the explanation based on the picture above:

1.FLAT serve is basically hit directly through the target, the racquet swing path is throughout the ball and towards the target, in reality no serve is completely FLAT, every serve has slice and topspin, its just that the FLAT serve is trying to hit with as minimum spin as possible and as direct as possible with minimum spin and most pace

2.SLICE serve is basically all that is colored blue, the ball has primarly a TON of sidespin and minimum topspin, the amount of topspin you add depends how much you want the ball to curve where, if you want more sidecurve you add more sidespin by swingpath going more on the lower part of the blue, if you want less sidespin bit more topspin spin into the court the swingpath is a bit more on the upper blue part.

3.TOPSPIN SLICE serve is basically a SLICE serve but its when you start hitting so much more up and less sideways that you get more into the red area, at that point you get quite a bit more topspin and less sidespin, but still quite a bit of sidespin

4.KICK or TOPSPIN serve is basically hitting more upwards and creating a ton of topspin to pull the ball into the court, hence why your throw is more behind, so you can brush upwards more, you can't hit a KICK serve with a normal flat or slice toss.

5.TWIST or KICK serve is basically the same as number 4. just that the swingpath is more sideways than the usual kick serve, the more sideway it is the more the ball will KICK to the side hence being called TWIST by some and KICK by others, and the more upward its swingpath is the more the ball will KICK upward into the air hence being called TOPSPIN by some or KICK by others.

IMPORTANT NOTE:
Every serve has a ton of variety, these serves are just the main names that people came up with in order to name certain effects the serves have.
But the reality is, each and every serve starting from FLAT to SLICE to KICK has many different spins on it, even a FLAT serve, its impossible to hit a FLAT serve that has completely 0 rotation in any axis, its just the amount of which spins the ball has that in the end give it a certain effect and hence they are called a SLICE serve or whatever.
But in reality the players who hit it have many different variations of each serve, they can hit a SLICE serve with a TON of sidespin, or they can hit less sidespin and more topspin to pull it into the court, same as flat serve, you can hit a pure flat serve or you can hit with a bit more topspin, there are a MILLION variations of each serve depending on what you want to do with the ball and where you want to hit it and how you want to curve it.
And all these variations are changed by the player by altering their position, their toss position, their swingpath etc..

 

[Chas Tennis]

In reality the KICK serve and TOPSPIN serve are the same, not sure why some people say they are different serves, they are not, but people call them different names for some reason.

There are really 3 main serves:

1.FLAT serve
2.KICK/TOPSPIN serve
3.SLICE serve

Then there are also 2 serves that are basically KICK/TOPSPIN and SLICE but have some more pronounced properties

4.TOPSPIN SLICE serve
5.TWIST/KICK serve


Theres a little bit confussion because some people call the KICK serve TOPSPIN serve, and some people call the TWIST serve a KICK serve, so its a bit confusing at times, but to explain each serve and how they look like:

Heres the explanation based on the picture above:

1.FLAT serve is basically hit directly through the target, the racquet swing path is throughout the ball and towards the target, in reality no serve is completely FLAT, every serve has slice and topspin, its just that the FLAT serve is trying to hit with as minimum spin as possible and as direct as possible with minimum spin and most pace

2.SLICE serve is basically all that is colored blue, the ball has primarly a TON of sidespin and minimum topspin, the amount of topspin you add depends how much you want the ball to curve where, if you want more sidecurve you add more sidespin by swingpath going more on the lower part of the blue, if you want less sidespin bit more topspin spin into the court the swingpath is a bit more on the upper blue part.

3.TOPSPIN SLICE serve is basically a SLICE serve but its when you start hitting so much more up and less sideways that you get more into the red area, at that point you get quite a bit more topspin and less sidespin, but still quite a bit of sidespin

4.KICK or TOPSPIN serve is basically hitting more upwards and creating a ton of topspin to pull the ball into the court, hence why your throw is more behind, so you can brush upwards more, you can't hit a KICK serve with a normal flat or slice toss.

5.TWIST or KICK serve is basically the same as number 4. just that the swingpath is more sideways than the usual kick serve, the more sideway it is the more the ball will KICK to the side hence being called TWIST by some and KICK by others, and the more upward its swingpath is the more the ball will KICK upward into the air hence being called TOPSPIN by some or KICK by others.

IMPORTANT NOTE:
Every serve has a ton of variety, these serves are just the main names that people came up with in order to name certain effects the serves have.
But the reality is, each and every serve starting from FLAT to SLICE to KICK has many different spins on it, even a FLAT serve, its impossible to hit a FLAT serve that has completely 0 rotation in any axis, its just the amount of which spins the ball has that in the end give it a certain effect and hence they are called a SLICE serve or whatever.
But in reality the players who hit it have many different variations of each serve, they can hit a SLICE serve with a TON of sidespin, or they can hit less sidespin and more topspin to pull it into the court, same as flat serve, you can hit a pure flat serve or you can hit with a bit more topspin, there are a MILLION variations of each serve depending on what you want to do with the ball and where you want to hit it and how you want to curve it.
And all these variations are changed by the player by altering their position, their toss position, their swingpath etc..

Spin exists in 3 dimensions. To specify spin in 3D, a vector component is given for each of three directions. Search Vectors. The diagram of the ball shows the 3 components that together specify the ball spin vector. These are also often called 'slice', 'top spin' and 'gyrospin', a tendency that can confuse the issue, especially if gyrospin is always poorly understood and left out. See the Sakurai, Elliott, Reid publication for definitions.

All types of serves have all three components of spin, as the ball with spin vectors diagram shows. This is a clear and complete 3D description of the spin.

Diagrams that show only 2 dimensions, posts #12 & 15, cannot show components in all 3 dimensions. For decades I thought of tennis ball spin as made up of slice and topspin. Those thoughts cannot describe a spin axis in 3 dimensions. Three dimensions is the reality as shown by the ball picture with its 3 vector components.

Tennis usage of terms such as Kick Serve and Top Spin Serve can be anything. I go with the researchers Cross and Lindsey and their views. They are described in the book Technical Tennis. Also with Sakurai, Elliott, Reid that did the research to measure the spin axes of the kick, flat and slice serves shown in the picture. They seem to be consistent with one another and make sense for 3 dimensions.

• Ball spin in the tennis serve: Spin rate and axis of rotation
  Article · March 2013 with 1,006 Reads
  DOI: 10.1080/14763141.2012.671355 · Source: PubMed
• Shinji Sakurai
  • 27.74
  • Chukyo University
• 
  
• Machar Reid
  • 35.72
  • Tennis Australia
• 
  
  Bruce C Elliott
  • 42.77
  • University of Western Australia

The gyrospin accounts for the sideways bounce of the kick serve according to Cross. The side bounce is larger because of the angle of the trajectory to the court. (Search: The Physics of the Kick Serve, R. Cross)

Forum posters views vs scientific researchers views....take your pick but listen to both......

 

[Jens Gabler]

question: can you put topspin on a flat serve without it being slice?

 

[Pete Player]

question: can you put topspin on a flat serve without it being slice?

Yes, but it wouldn’t be a flat, if you did that.


——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[SinjinCooper]

"Flat" is just a matter of degree. Most players have elements of both slice and topspin on even their flattest serves. Ain't nobody out there serving knuckleballs.

Well, not above 3.5, anyway.

 

[Chas Tennis]

question: can you put topspin on a flat serve without it being slice?

You can think of all sorts of spins on the ball. But in serving there are constraints to what a server can do. Such as, the racket rises and/or moves to the right during impact. That is why the flat, kick and slice serves all have their spin axes in the 'same octant' or 1/8 of a circle. There is no such real high level serve with pure topspin or pure slice. All spin axes are about as shown in the ball/spin vector diagram. The spin axes will be about perpendicular to the direction of racket string travel during impact.

See that the spin axes are all up and to the left, all type serves in the 'same octant'.

Now a trick question - what type of serve has the spin component with the greatest sidespin?

 

[Jens Gabler]

What is Roddick doing here? (how is he hitting the ball)
And if I hit a flat serve but I hit more up than forward do I get more topspin than let´s say if I would throw the toss more into the court and hit the ball at the same spot?
Or do I hit it at a different spot then automatically?
Or is a higher toss on a flat serve only better because it creates a bigger angel down into the service box?

I never understood why hitting up on serve works even for flat serves..?

 

[Jens Gabler]

You can think of all sorts of spins on the ball. But in serving there are constraints to what a server can do. Such as, the racket rises and/or moves to the right during impact. That is why the flat, kick and slice serves all have their spin axes in the 'same octant' or 1/8 of a circle. There is no such real high level serve with pure topspin or pure slice. All spin axes are about as shown in the ball/spin vector diagram. The spin axes will be about perpendicular to the direction of racket string travel during impact.

See that the spin axes are all up and to the left,all type serves in the 'same octant'.

Now a trick question - what type of serve has the spin component with the greatest sidespin?

The obvious answer would be the slice serve, but considering it´s a trick question I guess it´s not.
The flat serve?!

 

[FiReFTW]

Yes, but it wouldn’t be a flat, if you did that.

After the whole detailed explanation I did above, and after @Chas Tennis posted several very in depth and complex explanations, you come out with a ridicilous statement like this, I mean for freak sakes, are some people on this forum deliberately trolling?

Again, EVERY SINGLE TYPE OF SERVE including a FLAT serve have ALL types of spins on them, its a matter of HOW MUCH of WHICH spin they have that in the end results in a certain effect of the ball, whether it spins way sideways and is therefor refered to as SLICE, or it spins down into the court and a bit sideways and then kicks away and is therefor refered to as KICK or TWIST.. or whatever, but every single type of serve has ALL types of spins on them, the ball can't be hit with a tennis racquet and have absolutely 0 spin on each axis.. well im not a scientist, maybe it might be possible if all the thousand small components would fall in place to hit 1 serve like that from 1.000.000 attempts, but I seriously doubt it.

Spin exists in 3 dimensions. To specify spin in 3D, a vector component is given for each of three directions. Search Vectors. The diagram of the ball shows the 3 components that together specify the ball spin vector. These are also often called 'slice', 'top spin' and 'gyrospin', a tendency that can confuse the issue, especially if gyrospin is always poorly understood and left out. See the Sakurai, Elliott, Reid publication for definitions.

All types of serves have all three components of spin, as the ball with spin vectors diagram shows. This is a clear and complete 3D description of the spin.

Diagrams that show only 2 dimensions, posts #12 & 15, cannot show components in all 3 dimensions. For decades I thought of tennis ball spin as made up of slice and topspin. Those thoughts cannot describe a spin axis in 3 dimensions. Three dimensions is the reality as shown by the ball picture with its 3 vector components.

Tennis usage of terms such as Kick Serve and Top Spin Serve can be anything. I go with the researchers Cross and Lindsey and their views. They are described in the book Technical Tennis. Also with Sakurai, Elliott, Reid that did the research to measure the spin axes of the kick, flat and slice serves shown in the picture. They seem to be consistent with one another and make sense for 3 dimensions.

The gyrospin accounts for the sideways bounce of the kick serve according to Cross. The side bounce is larger because of the angle of the trajectory to the court. (Search: The Physics of the Kick Serve, R. Cross)

Forum posters views vs scientific researchers views....take your pick but listen to both......

I agree that all serves have all 3 spin components, I also agree spin exists in 3 dimensions, however it is somewhat confusing to people so I think it doesn't really help much to explain in such in depth details as most people simply won't understand it.

My diagram that I drew on the ball doesn't show spin axes, it just shows APROXIMATELY what swingpath the racquet takes in each of the types of serves, tho its a lot of gray in between this, but it was just a simplified way to make people understand how and what effect the serves have.

And yes topspin, kick or whatever can refer to many things, for me personaly there are 3 types of serves honestly.

1.Flat
2.Slice
3.Kick

When I pick what type of serve I will serve usually I either choose to hit harder and flatter hence you could say flat... or I pick to serve a curved serve that will curve sideways so you could say slice, or a serve that will be pulled down hard into the court so you could say kick.

But when serving I hit different amounts and different types of each of these serves, if I want a lot of sidespin on my slice I hit with more sidespin, if I want more safety margin and better angles I hit with more topspin and what could be called a topspin slice, but there are many many variations of just how much you vary your spin depending on what curve you want to make and where you want to place the ball.
Same for all other serves, you can also hit a "flat" serve and try to flatten it out as much as possible, or perhaps hit a "flat" serve but add a bit more topspin to pull it down and take away pace but give u more margin for error, there are a thousand variations of what you can do.

 

[Nellie]

No. It's a slice serve that you hit up on a little more. It's by far the most common and successful second serve in the history of professional tennis. It's a label of convenience. Many just call it a slice. Those of us who teach sometimes alter labels to help students understand.

The kicker has probably superseded it in the modern game, at least among the men. Though you'll still see plenty of both. And both are more common than straight topspin, just because movement is your friend, and they both move a lot more than simple rollers.

I just wanted to add that, in my opinion, the benefit of topslice is that you can use also the same swing motion and follow-through (toward backhand side leg) as a flat and slice serve, but with slightly different toss location and timing of the contact. In contrast, the topspin/twist serve use a different service motion that generally includes finishing to the forehand side. So I think the topslice is often easier to learn and to disguise, as well as being more effective for shorter players (shorter player's kicker may be going into opponents wheelhouse for crushing ground strokes). Also, I find topslice to be easier on my back (less twisting of the torso). I think the topspin/kicker has developed a cache because it is generally harder to learn, so its use is limited to more skilled players and not because the topspin kicker is a better second serve. For example, almost every junior starts with a topslice second serve, so they think of it as a kid's serve.

 

[FiReFTW]

I just wanted to add that, in my opinion, the benefit of topslice is that you can use also the same swing motion and follow-through (toward backhand side leg) as a flat and slice serve, but with slightly different toss location and timing of the contact. In contrast, the topspin/twist serve use a different service motion that generally includes finishing to the forehand side. So I think the topslice is often easier to learn and to disguise, as well as being more effective for shorter players (shorter player's kicker may be going into opponents wheelhouse for crushing ground strokes). Also, I find topslice to be easier on my back (less twisting of the torso). I think the topspin/kicker has developed a cache because it is generally harder to learn, so its use is limited to more skilled players and not because the topspin kicker is a better second serve. For example, almost every junior starts with a topslice second serve, so they think of it as a kid's serve.

Not only is topspin slice easier to learn, it is MUCH easier to learn.

Kick serve is extremely hard to learn..

 

[travlerajm]

You have twist and topspin a bit confused and mixed.
The more sideway you hit it the more your kick will bounce to the right.

No - what I said agrees with the diagram you posted of the back of the ball.
The more sideways you hit it, the more it slices and bounces to the left. The more toward the top (i.e., up to an optimum somewhere around 7-1), the more the spin grabs the ground and causes it to kick to the right. In between, it bounces straight, giving the appearance of a straight "topspin" serve, even though there is a lot of sidespin on it.

 

[Chas Tennis]

The obvious answer would be the slice serve, but considering it´s a trick question I guess it´s not.
The flat serve?!

Stop figuring it out and look at the measurements.

The kick serve has more sidespin and topospin and gyrospin according to the ball/spin diagram.

Another trick question - does the kick serve have relatively more topspin or more sidespin in the ball/spin diagram?

 

[Pete Player]

If one can read the labels on a ball, it defenatly has no spin. I’ve been able to do so many times in a serve also. Ofcourse it is not really any top knot serve.


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On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[santiago_rios]

question: can you put topspin on a flat serve without it being slice?

That's a good question I have been thinking of, how Peter Sampras and Andy Roddick would serve big flat first serve, but with a hard snap follow through, and it would put a spin on the ball so that it would bounce high and hard off the court at you. Hard to do.

 

[Jens Gabler]

That's a good question I have been thinking of, how Peter Sampras and Andy Roddick would serve big flat first serve, but with a hard snap follow through, and it would put a spin on the ball so that it would bounce high and hard off the court at you. Hard to do.

yeah how did Roddick do it...
150mph serve at 6'2 well inside the box..
Just how

The thing is I can get cllse to the speed of him (130-140 is doable for me) but it nearly never went in, so my conclusion was that he put more topspin on the ball but I never understood how.
My height is pretty similar at 6'1

 

[FiReFTW]

yeah how did Roddick do it...
150mph serve at 6'2 well inside the box..
Just how

Because he had a great serve?

 

[mad dog1]

yeah how did Roddick do it...
150mph serve at 6'2 well inside the box..
Just how

The thing is I can get cllse to the speed of him (130-140 is doable for me) but it nearly never went in, so my conclusion was that he put more topspin on the ball but I never understood how.
My height is pretty similar at 6'1

Roddick was slightly taller and his racquet was also extended length. He definitely gets great extension at contact exploding upward. Maybe he has longer arms too? All of these factors collectively make a big difference.

 

[FiReFTW]

Roddick was slightly taller and his racquet was also extended length. He definitely gets great extension at contact exploding upward. Maybe he has longer arms too? All of these factors collectively make a big difference.

He was also probably the top 5 best server in history of the ATP tour and practiced his serve more than 100 rec players will in a lifetime, I don't get why @Jens Gabler is acting like he wants to "figure" out his secret in order to serve like him, dude ul never even get close to serving like that, almost nobody in the history of the ATP tour did

 

[Pete Player]

Tossing well inside the court, and big lean forward with his trunk, not to mention the enormous range in his shoulder external rotation.

Defenately one of the biggest serves, if not the biggest in the history of the game.

——————————
On pain meds - all contributed matter and anti-matter subject to disclaimer

 

[santiago_rios]

yeah how did Roddick do it...
150mph serve at 6'2 well inside the box..
Just how

The thing is I can get cllse to the speed of him (130-140 is doable for me) but it nearly never went in, so my conclusion was that he put more topspin on the ball but I never understood how.
My height is pretty similar at 6'1

I asked a coach who could serve 130 mph, and the ball would explode of the court, high percentage in, and he said the hard snap pronation is how. Don't ask for too much advises here if you can serve so fast, maybe email or talk with true coaches in the real world, or watch close yourself when serving and result, and experiment. This forum will make doubt in you.

 

[santiago_rios]

He was also probably the top 5 best server in history of the ATP tour and practiced his serve more than 100 rec players will in a lifetime, I don't get why @Jens Gabler is acting like he wants to "figure" out his secret in order to serve like him, dude ul never even get close to serving like that, almost nobody in the history of the ATP tour did

@Jens Gabler
This is how I mean. If your serve is high, don't ask here, you will be crawling on all fours before 1 week.

 

[WestboroChe]

In reality the KICK serve and TOPSPIN serve are the same, not sure why some people say they are different serves, they are not, but people call them different names for some reason.

There are really 3 main serves:

1.FLAT serve
2.KICK/TOPSPIN serve
3.SLICE serve

Then there are also 2 serves that are basically KICK/TOPSPIN and SLICE but have some more pronounced properties

4.TOPSPIN SLICE serve
5.TWIST/KICK serve


Theres a little bit confussion because some people call the KICK serve TOPSPIN serve, and some people call the TWIST serve a KICK serve, so its a bit confusing at times, but to explain each serve and how they look like:

Heres the explanation based on the picture above:

1.FLAT serve is basically hit directly through the target, the racquet swing path is throughout the ball and towards the target, in reality no serve is completely FLAT, every serve has slice and topspin, its just that the FLAT serve is trying to hit with as minimum spin as possible and as direct as possible with minimum spin and most pace

2.SLICE serve is basically all that is colored blue, the ball has primarly a TON of sidespin and minimum topspin, the amount of topspin you add depends how much you want the ball to curve where, if you want more sidecurve you add more sidespin by swingpath going more on the lower part of the blue, if you want less sidespin bit more topspin spin into the court the swingpath is a bit more on the upper blue part.

3.TOPSPIN SLICE serve is basically a SLICE serve but its when you start hitting so much more up and less sideways that you get more into the red area, at that point you get quite a bit more topspin and less sidespin, but still quite a bit of sidespin

4.KICK or TOPSPIN serve is basically hitting more upwards and creating a ton of topspin to pull the ball into the court, hence why your throw is more behind, so you can brush upwards more, you can't hit a KICK serve with a normal flat or slice toss.

5.TWIST or KICK serve is basically the same as number 4. just that the swingpath is more sideways than the usual kick serve, the more sideway it is the more the ball will KICK to the side hence being called TWIST by some and KICK by others, and the more upward its swingpath is the more the ball will KICK upward into the air hence being called TOPSPIN by some or KICK by others.

IMPORTANT NOTE:
Every serve has a ton of variety, these serves are just the main names that people came up with in order to name certain effects the serves have.
But the reality is, each and every serve starting from FLAT to SLICE to KICK has many different spins on it, even a FLAT serve, its impossible to hit a FLAT serve that has completely 0 rotation in any axis, its just the amount of which spins the ball has that in the end give it a certain effect and hence they are called a SLICE serve or whatever.
But in reality the players who hit it have many different variations of each serve, they can hit a SLICE serve with a TON of sidespin, or they can hit less sidespin and more topspin to pull it into the court, same as flat serve, you can hit a pure flat serve or you can hit with a bit more topspin, there are a MILLION variations of each serve depending on what you want to do with the ball and where you want to hit it and how you want to curve it.
And all these variations are changed by the player by altering their position, their toss position, their swingpath etc..

Very nice post