Doubles partner when you chip and charge

[oldhacker]

I have recently resumed playing league doubles tennis after a few year break. During this break my volleying has improved considerably and is a couple of levels above my groundstrokes. As a result I have become a die-hard chip and charger on return of serve in doubles especially when the server stays back.

But I am finding that my chip and charge approach is causing problems for the partner I have played with. What seems to happen is one the server realises that they are losing most exchanges when they play back to me at the net they start start hitting my chipped returns DTL or at my partner at the net. Both partners I have played with have shown a tendency to back off towards the service line, especially when I play a short chip, when they see my returns and, as a result, open themselves up to being passed DTL or having a ball hit into their feet. I have tried speaking to them about this and suggesting that they hold their ground at the net when I chip returns. However, I am not sure they feel comfortable with this.

Do others have a similar experience or any suggestions?

BTW - I realise I am over-using the chipped return and need to work on practicing a driven return.

 

[Darkhors]

When they pass your partner, are they blowing it by them or is it just a matter of your partner not covering their area? If someone passes me a couple times in a row DTL, I'm going to force them to hit back CC to my partner. If they aren't great volleyers then it's going to be difficult to get them to move up and out to cover that spot.

Your partner should be moving in as soon as the ball is past the net person or at least away from them so they can take away the low return to their feet.

On the other hand, once they start doing this you should change your return. Either hit a chip lob over the net person or drive the ball a little deeper. They're making adjustments to your game and now you need to do the same.

I agree though, your partner needs to man up and move into the net. Remind them that it will be much easier for them to volley if they're 2 feet away from the net, rather than 7 feet.

DH

 

[floridatennisdude]

I have recently resumed playing league doubles tennis after a few year break. During this break my volleying has improved considerably and is a couple of levels above my groundstrokes. As a result I have become a die-hard chip and charger on return of serve in doubles especially when the server stays back.

But I am finding that my chip and charge approach is causing problems for the partner I have played with. What seems to happen is one the server realises that they are losing most exchanges when they play back to me at the net they start start hitting my chipped returns DTL or at my partner at the net. Both partners I have played with have shown a tendency to back off towards the service line, especially when I play a short chip, when they see my returns and, as a result, open themselves up to being passed DTL or having a ball hit into their feet. I have tried speaking to them about this and suggesting that they hold their ground at the net when I chip returns. However, I am not sure they feel comfortable with this.

Do others have a similar experience or any suggestions?

BTW - I realise I am over-using the chipped return and need to work on practicing a driven return.

I'd just whisper to my partner to belly up to the net and cover the alley. I got the rest.

 

[topseed]

When they pass your partner, are they blowing it by them or is it just a matter of your partner not covering their area? If someone passes me a couple times in a row DTL, I'm going to force them to hit back CC to my partner. If they aren't great volleyers then it's going to be difficult to get them to move up and out to cover that spot.

Your partner should be moving in as soon as the ball is past the net person or at least away from them so they can take away the low return to their feet.

On the other hand, once they start doing this you should change your return. Either hit a chip lob over the net person or drive the ball a little deeper. They're making adjustments to your game and now you need to do the same.

I agree though, your partner needs to man up and move into the net. Remind them that it will be much easier for them to volley if they're 2 feet away from the net, rather than 7 feet.

DH

I second the motion...

 

[corbind]

Oldhacker what is the approx. NTRP level of each person on the court?

http://www.usta.com/Play-Tennis/USTA-League/Information/About_NTRP/

I'm a net player so I want to spout off on what to do but it would be foolish until you answer the aforementioned question.

 

[Cindysphinx]

This is an excellent question, OP. I say that because I have the same problems with some partners.

I have doubles partners who *literally* backpedal to no man's land or even the baseline when I work my way to net. This is alarming, to say the least. Some folks simply are not comfortable at net or have been traumatized by lobs, so they feel someone needs to stay back to fetch lobs.

Sadly, this gives our opponents an escape valve. I apply pressure by coming in, opponents relieve the pressure by hitting to my backpedaling partner.

I have dealt with this by straight up refusing to play with partners who backpedal like that. I work hard to play with people who will observe a proper staggered doubles formation -- they should be no deeper than the middle of the box when the ball is in front of them, and I will fetch the lobs (by taking them out of the air).

My advice would be to explain what your partner's responsibilities are (balls at them and in their alley, as well as finishing points). Tell them you will get the lob over their head, and do it.

Then if they are blasting balls at and by your partner, you will know the problem is that your approach shots are simply not good enough.

 

[skiracer55]

Back to square one...

This is an excellent question, OP. I say that because I have the same problems with some partners.

I have doubles partners who *literally* backpedal to no man's land or even the baseline when I work my way to net. This is alarming, to say the least. Some folks simply are not comfortable at net or have been traumatized by lobs, so they feel someone needs to stay back to fetch lobs.

Sadly, this gives our opponents an escape valve. I apply pressure by coming in, opponents relieve the pressure by hitting to my backpedaling partner.

I have dealt with this by straight up refusing to play with partners who backpedal like that. I work hard to play with people who will observe a proper staggered doubles formation -- they should be no deeper than the middle of the box when the ball is in front of them, and I will fetch the lobs (by taking them out of the air).

My advice would be to explain what your partner's responsibilities are (balls at them and in their alley, as well as finishing points). Tell them you will get the lob over their head, and do it.

Then if they are blasting balls at and by your partner, you will know the problem is that your approach shots are simply not good enough.

...the most important key to doubles success isn't the serve, or the return, or the chip, or the charge, it's the ability (or lack thereof) of the two partners to talk about what each does well and not so well, and come up with an A game, a B game, and a C game that each is comfortable with.

You can come up with a million specific answers to the specific situation presented by the OP. As in "hit better returns". Or "tell your partner to get with the program and handle whatever comes his/her way." But if you partner goes "Ya know what? I'm getting tired of developing a second navel, thanks to your weak, wimpy chips, so go ahead and charge, but I'm heading for the baseline."

There are a lot of ways to solve this, or any other, doubles problem, but the only way that will ultimately work is for the partners to have a fireside chat and come up with strategies that they both agree on.

If you can't do that, and you're not fond of shouting matches with your partner during a match, I agree...go find another partner.

 

[tennis_ocd]

As a result I have become a die-hard chip and charger on return of serve in doubles especially when the server stays back.

But I am finding that my chip and charge approach is causing problems for the partner I have played with. ....

BTW - I realise I am over-using the chipped return and need to work on practicing a driven return.

hmmm. I regularly play with one who repeated chips the serve back (and very rarely takes the net.) Not a problem until bumping into some kid with a crushing forehand where I admit to finding myself back peddling.

Should the net guy (me) move up 2 ft from net and be able to routinely handle the crushed forehand from just a step behind the service line? Just don't feel my hands/reflexs are up to the task... used to think I'd get there but then find someone with an even bigger forehand. I do see many players routinely move back on the second serve to avoid just this issue (and others that stand firm.)

 

[corbind]

hmmm. I regularly play with one who repeated chips the serve back (and very rarely takes the net.) Not a problem until bumping into some kid with a crushing forehand where I admit to finding myself back peddling.

Should the net guy (me) move up 2 ft from net and be able to routinely handle the crushed forehand from just a step behind the service line? Just don't feel my hands/reflexs are up to the task... used to think I'd get there but then find someone with an even bigger forehand. I do see many players routinely move back on the second serve to avoid just this issue (and others that stand firm.)

Again, it depends on where your are as beginner, intermediate, or advanced. Either way, you're not at fault that your partner's weak return is setting up the opponents for easy crushers at you. You have to decide where you are most effective to get the ball back. If it's closer to the net or further back so be it. I'd only suggest to NOT stand near the service line as that is the easiest place for the opponent to pick on you in that situation.

Further, go tell your partner to either hit deeper/harder. He'll hit some wide and long but you'll certainly lose short chips if you cannot take the heat from the serve returner's forehand.

 

[goran_ace]

Ideally, yes, you would want your partner to close when you hit that return, but unfortunately it's not that simple in real life. When you are the serving team the netman can be proactive, particularly if the server has a good serve - but when returning, the returner's partner is in the hot seat. He has to react to both the server's partner and to your return before making that decision to close. If he comes forward right on top of the net and the server's partner poaches across the middle he leaves a lot of open court behind him. If you float your return or it sits up then he's a sitting duck.

What I'm looking for when my partner is looking to chip and charge is that the server's partner stays home and that my partner's return stays low and below the net. If the server has to get down and open up for it you know the reply is going to be hit up.

 

[floridatennisdude]

^^^nah, it's that simple. I chip and charge, you hold tight at the net and close off the alley. I take the middle and we switch on lobs. If they can hit a screamer cross court off my chip, they deserve the point. Just play the odds they can't keep that type of shot up. And even if they do, adjust to it.

Doubles is all about angles. Don't give them and create your own. Angles aren't created for you if you back pedal.

 

[SwankPeRFection]

You're putting your partner on the spot with your weak chips. It's as simple as that. You cannot chip and charge in doubles unless you've chipped the ball to a point where your opponents can't be offensive with it. Sounds to me like you're not doing that.

 

[oldhacker]

corbind - not in the US but the level is about 4.0 NTRP. I would be at the strong end of that level.

I agree with those who would want their partner to close the net and cover the alley if my C&C return makes it past the opposing net man. I will be staggered and covering the lob so they don't need to worry about that. I am confident I can make a decent volley off anything I can reach. If they play a great cross court pass or topspin lob then too good. But percentage wise I know that if my partner closes the net to cover his alley and the shot at him we will come out on top.

I have only just resumed playing league and don't have the luxury of regular partners. I also don't normally hit weak chipped returns as some are imagining.My strength if volleying (a couple of levels above the rest of my game) and I have practiced my chipped returns a lot using similar technique to volleying. I really step in to take time away from the opposing net man and generally force the server to hit up. Often it is more of a knifed return than a 'chip'. I completely understand my net man opting for self preservation if he sees I have not hit my return well and it is sitting up short. But that is the exception rather than the rule.

Oldhacker what is the approx. NTRP level of each person on the court?

http://www.usta.com/Play-Tennis/USTA-League/Information/About_NTRP/

I'm a net player so I want to spout off on what to do but it would be foolish until you answer the aforementioned question.

 

[corbind]

Well at that level your partners should be decent volleyers and fairly comfortable at the net. After all that IS the game of doubles. The only scenario where I can see your return having much to do with you partner backing off is if you hit a floater to the net man or a high/short ball to the server assuming the server hits big forehands DLT or at your partner.

Other than that, your partner needs to stay at the net, bend the knees and prepare for the storm.

 

[robbo1970]

Get your partner to take one step towards the line and put the server off from trying the pass them DTL.

Your diagonal run from the baseline corner towards the net should block the shot down the middle, you hit the punch volley down the middle or at the non servers feet.....love 15....next...

(remember to come off the ground with your first volley)

 

[SLW]

Stop chip/charging. That doesn't really work in doubles unless you are exceptionally good at it. Much easier to just drive the return back.

 

[LeeD]

SLW, that's the most ridiculous statement yet. Obviously, you can't volley, and neither can any of your partners.
When a returner chip and charges, not only does it take the server off his intended game, but it forces him to hit a really good low shot directly after his serve. Few players can hit TWO good shots in a row.
What does "driving the return get you? A long boring rally.

 

[Cindysphinx]

SLW, that's the most ridiculous statement yet. Obviously, you can't volley, and neither can any of your partners.
When a returner chip and charges, not only does it take the server off his intended game, but it forces him to hit a really good low shot directly after his serve. Few players can hit TWO good shots in a row.
What does "driving the return get you? A long boring rally.

I dunno, Lee.

OP said his groundies are not that strong. Fair enough. But a lot of people who chip and charge do it precisely because they cannot hit solid groundstrokes/returns. Alas, their chips are not as good as they think they are.

When I have someone hitting a good chip/slice to me, I cannot hit an offensive ball back at their partner. If I can rip the chip back at the partner or down the alley or lob it, that was a sorry arse chip.

 

[user92626]

This is an excellent question, OP. I say that because I have the same problems with some partners.

I have doubles partners who *literally* backpedal to no man's land or even the baseline when I work my way to net. This is alarming, to say the least. Some folks simply are not comfortable at net or have been traumatized by lobs, so they feel someone needs to stay back to fetch lobs.

Being lobbed is my least concern. I'm more traumatized by my baseline partner giving short shots that will be pounded at my body/face. OP did say that his chip and charge were short.


Back pedaling is instinctual to give yourself enough time to see the ball and react. Unless you're one of those net players that just keep the racket face up and open in front of you all the time.

 

[Mike Y]

Chip returns are likely not very good serve returns. First of all, it it extremely difficult to chip back a really good serve. On top of that, the chip has to be perfect in order to be effective. Too short and it is in the net. Too deep and the other team has an easy shot in the mid-court. If the server is serving and volleying (as they should as soon as they see that the returner is a chipper), then the server likely has either an easy volley or a relatively easy shot in the mid-court, even on a good chip return. It is likely that the OP is getting their partner blasted with their chip returns.

 

[LeeD]

I chip and charge at least 50% of my return points.
Seldom does either of us get to eat any tennis balls. More likely, a lob is thrown up, and if it lands 4' from my baseline, it starts the point neutral. If we can hit an overhead inside NML, usually it's point in our favor. If it's a pass attempt, our favor......IF my partner can volley at all.
Very few 4.0's can hit effective passing shots off heavy slice skidding returns. I DO get passed by 5.0's and better's, but that's not my concern. Key is early recognition of pass attempt, and both players take a step forwards to cover passes, and lean inwards half a step to cover the middle.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Being lobbed is my least concern. I'm more traumatized by my baseline partner giving short shots that will be pounded at my body/face. OP did say that his chip and charge were short.


Back pedaling is instinctual to give yourself enough time to see the ball and react. Unless you're one of those net players that just keep the racket face up and open in front of you all the time.

Backpedaling because you need to play defense is fine. Examples include when opponents are about to hit an overhead.

Backpedaling for proper positioning is fine. If I lob a crosscourt ball over the net player in front of me, then I need to move closer to the net and my partner needs to be off the net to maintain a staggered formation. Same story if I am pulled very close to the net -- my partner should drop back a bit until I can recover.

Backpedaling deeper than the service line simply because your partner is working her way to net is unacceptable.

 

[oldhacker]

Cindy - for the purposes of this thread take it that my chipped / chiselled returns are decent - ie not floaters but rather knifed, low bouncing balls which can either be short or deep. While my volleys are better than by groundies I am a certified teaching pro / coach so I can hit the ball. Also, as I said, I play the chipped return very early with similar technique to my volleys - which are my strength. If I do mis-time, and so float a chip, I have no problem with my partner opting for self-preservation just as is the case if I hit a poor lob.

Incidentally I do not think it is right to say that short chipped returns are bad and a health hazard for your partner. Providing my net man faces up the low bouncing knifed return which land inside the service line is very effective as it forced the server to scamper and hit up. Lee Jansen made this very same point in one of the doubles strategy videos he shot with FYB or Essential (I cannot remember which).

The problem arises when the returner partner backs off in response to a decent chipped return as this opens up the pass and the dipper into his feet and makes any volley much harder.

I think the backing off is an instinctive reaction many have to a short return to put more real estate between them and the server.

Aside from chipped decent returns there are other examples of short ball plays where the net man is best off closing the net. Another one I have found is when a very short sharp angled shot is hit. I have one partner who plays this shot very well and I have learned that my best play as his net man is to get right on top of the net and react to the shot played. Quick reactions and a calm head and you kill the reply every time.

I dunno, Lee.

OP said his groundies are not that strong. Fair enough. But a lot of people who chip and charge do it precisely because they cannot hit solid groundstrokes/returns. Alas, their chips are not as good as they think they are.

When I have someone hitting a good chip/slice to me, I cannot hit an offensive ball back at their partner. If I can rip the chip back at the partner or down the alley or lob it, that was a sorry arse chip.

 

[Cindysphinx]

Well, OK. I believe you.

I guess you just need new partners who are more comfortable at net and recognize poaching opportunities.

What I don't understand is why you don't hit an excellent slice return deeper. This would give your partners more time to react to whatever the returner decides to do. After all, if your hands are as good as I suspect they are, the returners aren't going to keep sending the ball to you as you work your way in. They are going to take that first short-ish chip at/by your partner, as it is perhaps their best option.

 

[oldhacker]

Cindy - as I said before I don't have the luxury of being able to choose partners when I play league tennis. I have started having a bit of a chat about tactics before matches and warning about my tendency to chip returns and suggesting that they try to hold the net. It helps a bit. One new partner was a good and brave volleyer but still backed off. I asked him why and he said to cover the lob. Once I pointed out that if he was on top of the net he was tough to lob off a short low return and even if he was I was staggered and ready to cover everything worked out fine.

You are correct the reason server start directing my chipped returns back at my net man is that they find they lose most exchanges when they play back to me. In some ways this only makes the problem worse and it is why I have particularly identified it.

To answer your question about depth of the chipped return. I do sometimes hit it deeper but it depends a bit on the opposing net man. If he is switched on he will start coming across early when he sees I am a chipper. And deeper chipped returns require higher net clearance and placement closer to the middle so they are more likely to be picked off. If I keep them low, short and angled towards the alley they rarely get picked off. Oh yes - and I can't always control the depth !

Well, OK. I believe you.

I guess you just need new partners who are more comfortable at net and recognize poaching opportunities.

What I don't understand is why you don't hit an excellent slice return deeper. This would give your partners more time to react to whatever the returner decides to do. After all, if your hands are as good as I suspect they are, the returners aren't going to keep sending the ball to you as you work your way in. They are going to take that first short-ish chip at/by your partner, as it is perhaps their best option.

 

[Cindysphinx]

OK, OK. I get it.

I guess I am projecting a little. I had a recent match where one opponent blasted my partner's serve at me. After I had missed the first two (as in "didn't even make a move because the ball was on me so fast"), I moved back to the baseline. I moved up to the net one more time in the final game when we had an insurmountable lead, and again the returner blasted the ball past me.

Was that my fault, or did it mean that my partner's serve was terrible? Either way, telling me to hold my ground wouldn't have been terribly reassuring. The problem, IMHO, was my partner's serve was way too short and way too weak.

 

[Roforot]

I chip and charge at least 50% of my return points.
Seldom does either of us get to eat any tennis balls. More likely, a lob is thrown up, and if it lands 4' from my baseline, it starts the point neutral. If we can hit an overhead inside NML, usually it's point in our favor. If it's a pass attempt, our favor......IF my partner can volley at all.
Very few 4.0's can hit effective passing shots off heavy slice skidding returns. I DO get passed by 5.0's and better's, but that's not my concern. Key is early recognition of pass attempt, and both players take a step forwards to cover passes, and lean inwards half a step to cover the middle.

I agree. As a server, I'd much rather face returners who try to drive or hit topspin shots... much easier to volley and I receive more than errors than clean passing shots.

I also find that hitting short slices can be useful esp. if the server stays back. Some of these even end up as winners.

 

[PBODY99]

OK, OK. I get it.

I guess I am projecting a little. I had a recent match where one opponent blasted my partner's serve at me. After I had missed the first two (as in "didn't even make a move because the ball was on me so fast"), I moved back to the baseline. I moved up to the net one more time in the final game when we had an insurmountable lead, and again the returner blasted the ball past me.

Was that my fault, or did it mean that my partner's serve was terrible? Either way, telling me to hold my ground wouldn't have been terribly reassuring. The problem, IMHO, was my partner's serve was way too short and way too weak.

That is a different problem, when the returner is charging a ripping.That seldom happens on low balls between close to equal teams.

 

[LeeD]

Whole idea of the chip part is to introduce a DIFFERENT kind of spin, speed, and bounce to the equation, one that the baseliner has problems dealing with.
Even at Men's PRO levels, the heavy biting slice works to a T. Seldom do baseliner's, except maybe Nadal and DJ, actually pummell a hard sliced ball, and oftentimes, it's a careful groundie.
Since U and I don't face Nadal or DJ, Fed or Ferrer, we don't have to worry about a strong passing shot off our chip returns.

 

[Off The Wall]

...I don't have the luxury of being able to choose partners when I play league tennis. I have started having a bit of a chat about tactics before matches and warning about my tendency to chip returns and suggesting that they try to hold the net. It helps a bit. One new partner was a good and brave volleyer but still backed off. I asked him why and he said to cover the lob. Once I pointed out that if he was on top of the net he was tough to lob off a short low return and even if he was I was staggered and ready to cover everything worked out fine.

You are correct the reason server start directing my chipped returns back at my net man is that they find they lose most exchanges when they play back to me. In some ways this only makes the problem worse and it is why I have particularly identified it.

To answer your question about depth of the chipped return. I do sometimes hit it deeper but it depends a bit on the opposing net man. If he is switched on he will start coming across early when he sees I am a chipper. And deeper chipped returns require higher net clearance and placement closer to the middle so they are more likely to be picked off. If I keep them low, short and angled towards the alley they rarely get picked off. Oh yes - and I can't always control the depth !

You're doing the correct tactic. Your partners are not. It sounds like they fear being hit. Not much you can do about that. You'd really have no choice but to drive your returns deeper or lob to make your partner feel safe and at home up there.

 

[TeflonTom]

You are correct the reason server start directing my chipped returns back at my net man is that they find they lose most exchanges when they play back to me. In some ways this only makes the problem worse and it is why I have particularly identified it.

if it is preferable 2 tee off at ur net man than drop a dipper on ur feet when u r coming in, it means ur approaches r just not up 2 scratch

i have played against guys like u. they hit very floaty chips. these r great for them, because it gives em plenty of time 2 get 2 the net b4 i hit my return

the problem is that they are such nothin shots that it makes it very easy 2 blast at their net man or lob him. the poor partner then loses the pt n gets the blame from the guy who caused the problem

 

[stapletonj]

big tall lefty here. you know, playing ad court and returing serve was the toughest part of the game for me. We had a regualr foursome and we were all pretty good (we'd play all the local doubles touneys and usually meet in the finals, not bragging, just facts)

I played ad court and the other guys would serve down the T and low to me. (one handed backhand). The net man would poach like crazy and there I was....middle of the court....low ball that I couldn't hit a drive backhand on....bad angle to try to go down the line/behind poacher....crap

I finally quit trying to hit the perfect low slciing chip way over in server's alley every time (b/c every time I tried anything else or failed to execute perfectly we got crushed by Mike Hurley, net man extraordinare), and began popping little lobs over their heads.

Didn't work all the time and made me feel like a complete girly player, but it beat Mike's fuzz sandwiches!!!

 

[TeflonTom]

that's when u swap with ur partner n play deuce court

im a lefty with a one hander n love workin the ccbh when they try the ole can opener on me in the deuce

the wider they swing u, the more angle u get for the return

 

[LuckyR]

Cindy - as I said before I don't have the luxury of being able to choose partners when I play league tennis. I have started having a bit of a chat about tactics before matches and warning about my tendency to chip returns and suggesting that they try to hold the net. It helps a bit. One new partner was a good and brave volleyer but still backed off. I asked him why and he said to cover the lob. Once I pointed out that if he was on top of the net he was tough to lob off a short low return and even if he was I was staggered and ready to cover everything worked out fine.

You are correct the reason server start directing my chipped returns back at my net man is that they find they lose most exchanges when they play back to me. In some ways this only makes the problem worse and it is why I have particularly identified it.

To answer your question about depth of the chipped return. I do sometimes hit it deeper but it depends a bit on the opposing net man. If he is switched on he will start coming across early when he sees I am a chipper. And deeper chipped returns require higher net clearance and placement closer to the middle so they are more likely to be picked off. If I keep them low, short and angled towards the alley they rarely get picked off. Oh yes - and I can't always control the depth !

I don't doubt your conclusion, but it is ultimately a guess. I assume that you are in first volley position when you hit your first volley. If so, it implies you are a better volleyer than your competition's groundstrokes, which in this day and age likely makes you a significantly better player than they are (this would make hitting to your partner (regardless of their position) a very reasonable option. If you partner retreats to an area that makes them less effective, so much the better (for your opponent).