ESPN: Is Federer the Greatest Athlete?

[ubermeyer]

There's not really a comparison. It's hard to even pick a GOAT of tennis, although Federer has made that easier for us. But for all sports? How do you define "greatest athlete?" Is it raw athletic ability? Even that's hard - best runner? best weightlifter? some combination (like a decathlete)? Is it some specialized skill - best golfer? best basketball shooter? Or some combination of athletic ability and skill? Then how much weight do you give to each? Or does it involve not just skill, and athletism, but winning ability, "clutch," etc? It's not really possible to just pick a greatest, unless you assign arbitrary weight to each facet and somehow quantify it. Which is meaningless.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Who? Prost?

Schumacher himself said Senna is #1.

Senna was better than Prost, and he could've been the GOAT if it wasn't for the tragic accident, but considering just what they did, Schumacher and Fangio are the best IMO.

 

[tistrapukcipeht]

Ayrton Senna would have had something to say about that.

Yes, He would have said:

"Damn this guy Michael Schumacher who has been taking a piece of me since he started to race F1, why is this guy racing here, take him away please" .

Senna:
" I wish I could have had:
7 titles, 91 wins (more than double I have), more hat tricks (more than double I have), more race fastest laps (more than 3 times as much as I have), more podiums, more finishes in second and third (more than double I have) and never complain and whine and make more than $ 80 million dollars a year for so many years???"

Senna is not even close to Michael Schumacher, Fangio and Prost(same generation as Senna) were the closest ones, still far behind.

 

[tistrapukcipeht]

Senna was better than Prost, and he could've been the GOAT if it wasn't for the tragic accident, but considering just what they did, Schumacher and Fangio are the best IMO.

Senna wasn't better than Prost at all, only thing Senna had on Prost was poles and ability to race in the wet, nothing else.

Prost= 4 titles (Senna 3), 51 wins(42), more podiums, more hat tricks.

 

[TeflonTom]

only rankingd senna and maradona are at the top of are most overrated athletes of all time

 

[BauerAlmeida]

How can Maradona be overrated?? Did you see the things he could do with a ball??

As Platini once said "Zidane is fantastic, but what he is able to do with a ball, Maradona can do it with an orange". I don't remember exactly but it was something like that.

 

[TeflonTom]

Ppl overrate maradona cos they r either argentinian, or their sole knowledge of him comes from masturbatin over a few youtube clips

Zidane is almost as overrated as maradona

 

[Russeljones]

-Maradona is NOT a striker, it doesn't matter how many goals he scored.
-Pele played in a decade where teams played 2-3-5 (formation), do you see that today?? And the level wasn't as competitive as it is now
-NEVER played outside Brasil (except one season in.......USA)
-In one of the 3 WC Brasil won, Pele barely played.
-Football is a team sport, Messi may not win 3 WC but he is scoring 50 goals per season. Pele wouldn't even dream about doing that this times. Last season Messi scored MORE THAN 70 GOALS, that's outrageous, nobody will ever come close to that.

Messi is a national team flop, you're Argentinian so your opinion doesn't count. You would have us believe Veron is the best MF of all time.

 

[Russeljones]

only rankingd senna and maradona are at the top of are most overrated athletes of all time

They are usually rated by people with superficial knowledge of two sports.

 

[Russeljones]

u kno nothin bout cyclin then

tour is great but merckx won everythin there is to win in cyclin. giros, vueltas, tours, classics

merckx coulda won a bunch more tours if he'd concentrated on em to the exclusion of everythin else like fancy pants lance. but it wasnt as important back in the 70s

I too can't believe this guy has placed Dopestrong above Merckx. His individual achievements inside major races are unrivaled.

In 1969 he won the TDF by 17 minutes and 54 seconds. A margin never bettered. In the process he won the green (points classification), mountain and general classification jerseys. Something nobody has ever done before or after.

Merckx won the equivalent of a race a week for six years.

Most career victories by a professional cyclist: 525.
Most victories in one season: 54.
Most stage victories in the Tour de France: 34.
Most stage victories in one Tour de France: 8.
Most days with the yellow jersey in the Tour de France: 96.
The only cyclist to have won the general classification, points classification and mountains classification in the same Tour de France (1969).
Most victories in classics: 28.
Most victories in one single classic: 7 (in Milan – San Remo).
Most victories in Grand Tours: 11

 

[ViscaB]

Messi is a national team flop, you're Argentinian so your opinion doesn't count. You would have us believe Veron is the best MF of all time.

He has won more with the national team (Olympic gold ) than his main rival in this era...

Is Federer a national team flop because Nadal has won so many Davis Cups? Are you not dependent on the quality of your teammates?

 

[merlinpinpin]

Some people lack perspective so much on these boards (or really suffer from short-term memory) it's not even funny.

Saying Armstrong is better than Merckx would be like saying that Renshaw is better than Federer because six of his seven Wimbledon wins were consecutive, only more so. Merckx definitely is head and shoulders (and chest, and hips) above Armstrong, there really is no comparison.

Same with Pele--Maradona was good, but come on, he never was in the same league (and I don't even want to talk about Zidane, lol).

Merckx >>>>>>>>>>>> Armstrong
Pele >>>>>>>>>>>> Maradona

Can't see how you can say different when you're trying to be at least a little fair-minded.

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Messi is a national team flop, you're Argentinian so your opinion doesn't count. You would have us believe Veron is the best MF of all time.

There is a small flaw in your theory.

If he is a flop in the national team, I should "hate" him if i'm argentinian, not like him.

And, no, Maradona is recognized everywhere as the football goat and Messi as the best current player. The 3 ballon d'or (soon to be 4) he won were given by people from Argentina??


As ViscaB said, Federer never won the DC, is he a flop??? And I don't know why did you bring up Veron, of course he is nowhere near the best players of all time. He was a great player but there were many better MF even in his own era (Zidane, Giggs, Laudrup, Nedved, etc)

 

[Steve132]

There is a small flaw in your theory.

And, no, Maradona is recognized everywhere as the football goat and Messi as the best current player. The 3 ballon d'or (soon to be 4) he won were given by people from Argentina??

This is not true. In virtually every international poll of fans, players or journalists Pele is rated the greatest ever, usually by a substantial margin. See, for example, the end of the century polls listed in Russeljones's post.

You are perfectly free to disagree with this consensus, but your statement misrepresents the views of football observers.

 

[THUNDERVOLLEY]

Of course not, tennis players are a joke, athletically.

Agreed in the sense that history's greatest Olympians surpass the likes of Federer in physcial ability, execution and certainly accomplishment. Someone at ESPN is living in a fantasy world all their own.

 

[ViscaB]

This is not true. In virtually every international poll of fans, players or journalists Pele is rated the greatest ever, usually by a substantial margin. See, for example, the end of the century polls listed in Russeljones's post.

You are perfectly free to disagree with this consensus, but your statement misrepresents the views of football observers.

In the end of century FIFA poll Maradona won the fan's vote.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_Player_of_the_Century
Since 1991, FIFA have had awards for FIFA World Player of the Year and they decided to bring in the new millennium by conducting a public vote to decide the FIFA Player of the Century. This was to be decided by votes on their official website, their official magazine and a grand jury. Maradona won the Internet based poll by wide margins, garnering 53.6% of the votes against 18.53% for Pelé. In spite of this, and shortly before the ceremony, FIFA unexpectedly decided to add a second award and appointed a "Football Family" committee composed of football journalists that also gave to Pelé the title of best player of the century to make it a draw. Many suspected that Pelé was rewarded for his constant support of FIFA, in contrast to Maradona's frequent criticism.

 

[Steve132]

Maradona won ONE poll - which, as an Internet poll, was susceptible to manipulation. This was pointed out at the time. What about all the others?

 

[Magnetite]

We established this 3-4 pages back, thanks though.

It took u 3-4 pages to figure that out?

/facepalm

 

[ViscaB]

Maradona won ONE poll - which, as an Internet poll, was susceptible to manipulation. This was pointed out at the time. What about all the others?

He won the fan's poll. And he will do so again if we have another one.

 

[Russeljones]

It took u 3-4 pages to figure that out?

/facepalm

your reading comprehension

/facepalm

 

[Russeljones]

There is a small flaw in your theory.

If he is a flop in the national team, I should "hate" him if i'm argentinian, not like him.

And, no, Maradona is recognized everywhere as the football goat and Messi as the best current player. The 3 ballon d'or (soon to be 4) he won were given by people from Argentina??


As ViscaB said, Federer never won the DC, is he a flop??? And I don't know why did you bring up Veron, of course he is nowhere near the best players of all time. He was a great player but there were many better MF even in his own era (Zidane, Giggs, Laudrup, Nedved, etc)

Messi is a national team flop. Maradona should not even be in the top 3 discussion, never mind the goat (football players). You don't have arguments only nationalism.

 

[Magnetite]

your reading comprehension

/facepalm

Actually, you made that post on page 7. So page 7 minus 3-4 pages, puts you on page 3 or 4.

Nice try though

/facepalm

 

[Russeljones]

Actually, you made that post on page 7. So page 7 minus 3-4 pages, puts you on page 3 or 4.

Nice try though

/facepalm

Familiar with the plural form? Or maybe I should have included "Slight sarcasm incoming, it took the people posting in this thread 3 pages to declare team sports off limit to the greatest athlete discussion." We.

/facepalm

 

[Steve132]

He won the fan's poll. And he will do so again if we have another one.

Maradona won ONE fan's poll. Pele has won many others.

In any event, it's not obvious why fans' opinions should count for more than those of players and journalists. For example, I am a huge admirer of Roger Federer, but that fact that some 18 year old fan who started watching tennis in 2005 considers him to be the GOAT is not, in my view, a compelling argument in Federer's favor. I am much more impressed by the fact that men like Jack Kramer, Nick Bollettieri and Cliff Drydsale, who have watched tennis for decades, share that view.

Anyone interested in seeing rankings of great soccer players can start here:

http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/bestbest.html

 

[BauerAlmeida]

Messi is a national team flop. Maradona should not even be in the top 3 discussion, never mind the goat (football players). You don't have arguments only nationalism.

Man, are you seriuos?? Did you ever watch him play? Maradona is an icon and admired all over the world. It has nothing to do with nationalism. Stop mentioning that, I couldn't care less about where players are born. Neither my favorite football player or tennis player are from Argentina.

 

[merryinc]

idk when ESPN looks at it i don't know if even a few footballers made the list, thought some probably should've

 

[roberttennis54]

He has won more with the national team (Olympic gold ) than his main rival in this era...

Is Federer a national team flop because Nadal has won so many Davis Cups? Are you not dependent on the quality of your teammates?

Don't resort to such low arguments. Davis Cup is far from the highest level of tennis. The world cup is the highest level of football. International football has been and always will be the pinnacle of a players career. Not so for the Davis Cup. In addition Messi is not exactly from a poor footballing country. He is from Argentina and plays alongside players like Tevez, Higuain, Di Maria, Heinze, Samuel, Gago, Cambiasso, Milito etc. It is a real mark against him, he could not get this team to perform better. Ronaldo with a weaker Portugal team has performed much better, though the Portugal team are by no means weak. It annoys me had he won the Euro's which he was close to doing (Portugal being the 3rd best team after Spain and Germany and well capable of beaing Italy) people would have claimed he did it single handedly. This just like Maradona in 86 would be a lie.

As for Messi he is probably the most overrated player of all time. Modern medicine and other things allow players to be more consistent now than ever. Hence why for the first time since the 80s players are scoring so many goals. Messi is definitely one of the greatest players ever, but to call him the GOAT is a joke.

At the end of the day Barcelona without Messi are just Spain with a worst keeper. People consider this Spanish team to be the best team ever. The Barcelona team is built around Mess.

As for Maradona I have agreed his level of play is up there with Pele and above any other player. The problem is he did not win as much as Pele to be placed above him for club or country. Worse still his doping record must disqualify him from the position of the GOAT? You cannot have a doper as the greatest footballer of all time.

 

[Russeljones]

Man, are you seriuos?? Did you ever watch him play? Maradona is an icon and admired all over the world. It has nothing to do with nationalism. Stop mentioning that, I couldn't care less about where players are born. Neither my favorite football player or tennis player are from Argentina.

This doesn't make him a candidate for greatest of all time. His only World Cup win came with his greatest and lowest moment (as I rate the hand goal as lower than the drugs bust) and one could really call him a flawed genius. But so was George Best, Paul Gascoigne and many others.

 

[roberttennis54]

This doesn't make him a candidate for greatest of all time. His only World Cup win came with his greatest and lowest moment (as I rate the hand goal as lower than the drugs bust) and one could really call him a flawed genius. But so was George Best, Paul Gascoigne and many others.

I agree with your sentiments on Maradona, but I cannot understand how you rate the handball worse than doping? The handball was a momentary decision to cheat. It cost England a goal. It probably did not even change the outcome of the match. On the other hand doping cheats every team, it is a decision to cheat over a long period of time, it increase your prowess for life and changes the outcome of every game. Nothing is worse than doping in sport.

Gazza was the most talented English player maybe of all time, but he does not belong alongside Maradona. Gazza never lived up to his talent. Maradona did. Yes he could have won more, but he really became the best player in the world and only Pele is probably ahead of him at being the best footballer ever.

 

[Russeljones]

I agree with your sentiments on Maradona, but I cannot understand how you rate the handball worse than doping? The handball was a momentary decision to cheat. It cost England a goal. It probably did not even change the outcome of the match. On the other hand doping cheats every team, it is a decision to cheat over a long period of time, it increase your prowess for life and changes the outcome of every game. Nothing is worse than doping in sport.

Gazza was the most talented English player maybe of all time, but he does not belong alongside Maradona. Gazza never lived up to his talent. Maradona did. Yes he could have won more, but he really became the best player in the world and only Pele is probably ahead of him at being the best footballer ever.

1.) The assertion that the hand goal did not affect the end-result is facetious, we'll never know but it's a goal they shouldn't have had.

2.) Cocaine is not exactly PEDs. He used it in his R & R time.

3.) "He could have played for Brazil." - Sir Alex Ferguson on Paul Gascoigne. I don't like if's in these discussions but I am sure you won't argue against the notion that had Gazza joined Man U in '88 he would have reached dizzying heights.

4. As far as only Pele being ahead of Maradona I find that contentious. I'd say Romario clearly achieved more than Maradona. Bobby Charlton could also be argued for. Gert Muller achieved more, Platini achieved more, it's not even hard to think of Maradona being out of the all time top 5. Not on ability but on what was actually done. Maradona had an exceptionally strong national side to win more with but the same cannot be said of his club career. Sometimes the planets align and a genius does his thing, such was the case with Edson Arantes do Nascimento Pelé.

 

[roberttennis54]

1.) The assertion that the hand goal did not affect the end-result is facetious, we'll never know but it's a goal they shouldn't have had.

2.) Cocaine is not exactly PEDs. He used it in his R & R time.

3.) "He could have played for Brazil." - Sir Alex Ferguson on Paul Gascoigne. I don't like if's in these discussions but I am sure you won't argue against the notion that had Gazza joined Man U in '88 he would have reached dizzying heights.

4. As far as only Pele being ahead of Maradona I find that contentious. I'd say Romario clearly achieved more than Maradona. Bobby Charlton could also be argued for. Gert Muller achieved more, Platini achieved more, it's not even hard to think of Maradona being out of the all time top 5. Not on ability but on what was actually done. Maradona had an exceptionally strong national side to win more with but the same cannot be said of his club career. Sometimes the plants align and a genius does his thing, such was the case with Edson Arantes do Nascimento Pelé.

1. I've seen the game several times. We were being outplayed through out most of the match. We only looked a threat when Barnes came on. Argentina always looked like they would score at some point. However, you are right we will never know.

2. No, but in 94 he was sent home for PED. He also admitted that the entire Argentina team had been given PEDs in the qualifying. So at least twice he either was found guilty or admitted to PEDS. Further more he was strongly suspected of steroid use in the 80s. Considering he was faking drugs test during that period it makes him even more suspicious for me. So this bans him from being amongst the GOAT.

3. I agree, but he didn't. Gazza is pretty much all potential. Maradona did not win as much as he should have, but he DID reach those heights. Gazza cannot compare.

4. This is why I said BEST. All those footballers with the exception of Charlton have solid claims for being GREATER and achieving more, but I don't think they were as good as him. Ronaldo may have reached those dizzy heights were it not for injuries. Maradona played for Barcelona. He had the team mates. He just flopped there. Even the Napoli team was fairly good.

 

[Deleted member 743561]

Number of nice nominees ITT but at the end of the day, with no supporting cast, you’ve got to give it to the guy who operates most masterfully over the longest period of time. No precedent for the longevity of this domination.

I’ll allow that there are others who’ve taken certain skill sets to greater heights. However, the net product here is nonpareil.

 

[-NN-]

Senna was better than Prost, and he could've been the GOAT if it wasn't for the tragic accident, but considering just what they did, Schumacher and Fangio are the best IMO.

This post is 5 years old but whatevs.

Nobody got more help than Schumacher and Fangio. We were robbed of a great rivalry between Senna and Schumacher, and in the space of 2 years Senna, Prost and Mansell gave way to a desolate F1 landscape where Schumacher's best competition was Mika Hakkinen. Nonetheless, I think both Fangio and Schumacher have a good claim for being the greatest despite the Ferrari International Assistance and dedicated lackey drivers.

Senna pushed the boundaries of classic technique and Schumacher was revolutionary in how he'd apply the throttle through corners in a sustained incremental manner while making more corrections through the corner to keep the car balanced, as a more consistent throttle control obviously lends itself to a less straight lines approach and a more unstable car. This way of driving was new at the time in F1 and took tremendous skill. Schumi may have had a cheat code Benetton in 1994 (as in he might have been driving an illegal car) but nobody else could drive it, which speaks to how idiosyncratic his technique was.

 

[peakin11mugs]

Interesting debate but ultimately just a topic for fun. Can’t take it too seriously. Sports are too different

I don’t think fed is greatest athlete. Tennis has too many barriers to entry and is elitist. Very expensive, need to start playing age 4, limited number if players. Very likely in the world there are people who have the talent that if they did play tennis and every little thing fell in place e.g. played age 4, spotted, trained would be better than fed

More extreme example are niche sports like fencing. Worlds best fencer probably has
Millions who could be better if they took up fencing never will

Soccer in contrast has very little barriers to entry, cheap, easier to be spotted. Very likely there adent many people on earth who actually could potentially if they took up soccer be better then GOAT fotballers

 

[Deleted member 743561]

Interesting debate but ultimately just a topic for fun. Can’t take it too seriously. Sports are too different

I don’t think fed is greatest athlete. Tennis has too many barriers to entry and is elitist. Very expensive, need to start playing age 4, limited number if players. Very likely in the world there are people who have the talent that if they did play tennis and every little thing fell in place e.g. played age 4, spotted, trained would be better than fed

More extreme example are niche sports like fencing. Worlds best fencer probably has
Millions who could be better if they took up fencing never will

Soccer in contrast has very little barriers to entry, cheap, easier to be spotted. Very likely there a few people on earth who actually could potentially if they took up soccer be better then GOAT fotballers

The bolded is too true.

Of course, this subset of the boards is throwaway stuff, largely nonsensical, wink-wink-nudge-nudge prattle.

The rest of it, though? Dissertation-level scholarship.

 

[BlueClayGOAT]

I think we can all agree that there can be no definitive answer.

There can, however, be a very inclusive and representative list of nominees who represent the elite.

In no particular order:

Pele, Michael Jordan, Usain Bolt, Roger Federer, Muhammad Ali, Sugar Ray Robinson, Lionel Messi, Donald Bradman, Wayne Gretzky, Tom Brady, Eddie Merckx, Michael Schumacher, Diego Maradona, Rod Laver, Ayrton Senna, Babe Ruth, Michael Phelps, Lebron James.

 

[Fabresque]

There can’t be an answer to this, but each sport has their own GOAT, like Tennis has Roger Federer. I don’t think it’s fair to compare Roger Federer to Michael Phelps, because while both are the greatest in their own sports, Phelps is obviously a lot more fit than Federer is.

In no order, the greatest athletes in the history of sports would probably be

Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali, Bo Jackson, Usain Bolt, Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, Pele, Magic Johnson, Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Babe Ruth, Wayne Gretzky, Rafael Nadal.

There’s probably way more than this.

But one thing that I will say is that Roger is definitely the greatest Sportsman of all time. Career longetivity, accomplishments that aren’t winning/trophies, and unbelievable sportsmanship throughout his career. I couldn’t say the same about most of the other GOAT athletes.

 

[Fabresque]

There can’t be an answer to this, but each sport has their own GOAT, like Tennis has Roger Federer. I don’t think it’s fair to compare Roger Federer to Michael Phelps, because while both are the greatest in their own sports, Phelps is obviously a lot more fit than Federer is.

In no order, the greatest athletes in the history of sports would probably be

Michael Jordan, Muhammad Ali, Bo Jackson, Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, Pele, Magic Johnson, Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Babe Ruth, Wayne Gretzky, Rafael Nadal.

There’s probably way more than this.

But one thing that I will say is that Roger is definitely the greatest Sportsman of all tiem