Federer-Djokovic Rivalry Over the Years: Technical Analysis

[bjsnider]

"You have the best excuse in the world for losing; no trouble losing when you got a good excuse. Winning... that can be heavy on your back, too, like a monkey. You'll drop that load too when you got an excuse. All you gotta do is learn to feel sorry for yourself. One of the best indoor sports, feeling sorry for yourself. A sport enjoyed by all, especially the born losers." -- The Hustler, 1961 film by Robert Rossen

I decided to analyze the Djokovic/Federer rivalry by looking at their two US Open finals, played in 2007, when they were 20 and 26 years old, respectively, and 2015, when their ages were 28 and 34.

First of all, it's clear from watching both matches that neither guy moves as well today as he did in 2007. Even Djokovic seems a bit more vulnerable.

2007: Self-Pity is More Fun than Winning

Djokovic's 2007 game was remarkably similar to his present game. He hit numerous excellent 120+ mph serves well aimed and angled to the edges. He had numerous easy service games as a result. His defense was impenetrable, except when Federer hit first serves that pulled Djokovic out of position. But on big points, break points, tiebreak points and so on, Djokovic had a tendency to overhit and make easy errors. Djokovic also double-faulted far more than is healthy.

Djokovic had seven set points and still lost the first set. He had more set points and lost the second set.

More than that, Djokovic also had a tendency towards histrionic drama, such as racquet smashes and at one point he dumped water out of a bottle onto the court. He laughed and grimaced at his backhand errors. He was giving himself an excuse for losing. Self-pity was more fun than winning at that point in his career. Federer didn't play very well but won in straights anyway. Federer allowed Djokovic to beat himself. That's called winning ugly. It's exactly what the more mature Djokovic did to Federer in the 2015 final.

What follows are some sequences that illustrate what went wrong for Djokovic in 2007.

Look who's sitting with Djokovic's team watching the match and cheering him on:

First Set:

Djokovic up 6-5, 40-0. Makes several unforced groundstroke errors, hitting long. On break point, double-faults. The 40-0 sequence ends like this. Backhand to backhand rally.

Djokovic hits a weak, short ball to Federer's forehand, and Federer responds. In future years, this is a type of rally ball Djokovic would direct to Federer's backhand.

This ball is a winner, hit on the line on Djokovic's deuce court. This begins a turnaround that results in Federer breaking and sending to set to a tiebreak.

Tiebreak: Djokovic minibreaks, now has two serves at 3-2. The first point is illustrated below. Good serve that Federer barely gets in play.

Djokovic hits a forehand cross court.

Federer's backhand goes cross court.

Djokovic continues the rally with a cross court backhand of his own.

This time Federer is in a more defensive position and hits a weak one.

Djokovic now take the initiative and hits up the line.

But he nets the ball and takes it out on an innocent racquet. Djokovic might still try this shot today, and might make it. But I think he also might keep the cross court rally going until Federer errors out on his backhand side.

After this, Djokovic double-faulted to give Federer a 4-3 lead with two serves coming. Djokovic probed Federer's defense on the next point until Djokovic errored out. Djokovic did one of his "poor me" flourishes. Federer hit a good first serve at 5-3. At 6-3, Djokovic won his service point playing good defense until Federer errored out on the backhand. At 6-4, Djokovic double-faulted. Here, have a free tennis set. Djokovic had 7 set points, many on his own stick, and still lost.

Second Set:

Djokovic is up a break. Serves to Federer's backhand. Federer returns to Djokovic's backhand.

Djokovic hits to the deuce side, but rushes it and overhits the ball.

His body language says he knows right away. Is this easy error one Djokovic would still commit today?

Now, in the tiebreak. Djokovic trying to hold serve.

Federer returns deep off the forehand side.

Djokovic hits a backhand cross court, moving Federer into his own backhand.

Federer hits the safe shot back to Djokovic.

Djokovic overhits a backhand, losing patience. It lands out and Federer pulls away, winning all remaining points in the tiebreak. Does Djokovic still commonly make this mistake?

 

[bjsnider]

2015: Winning Ugly

No more histrionics. No stick abuse. No complaining or whining or enjoying self-pity. No excuses. It's all about the W and the L. Djokovic breaks Federer early. At 0-15 on his own serve, Djokovic blew a tire and fell on his right arm, leaving pieces of scraped-off flesh on the court. Djokovic got up, without complaining or whining, and played and lost the next two games before seeking treatment.

Wounds to Djokovic's arm and pieces of flesh embedded in the court surface.

After the treatment, Djokovic held, and got into Federer's service game. Federer hit a backhand error to give Djokovic a break point.

On t he next point, crucial for both parties, Federer hits to Djokovic's backhand

Djokovic responds by hitting back to Federer's backhand

Federer hits an approach shot that lands short and gives Djokovic too much time. At this point, Djokovic has two angles to choose from. Notice how Federer isn't leaning one way or the other. One thing Djokovic has mastered is disguise. Nobody knows where he's going to hit the ball.

Djokovic chooses the line, although either would have worked.

Djokovic closed out the set. At the end of set 2, Federer won on a break point by hitting a wide backhand that pulled Djokovic off the court and drew a forced error.

That shot is too much for Djokovic to handle, and the response is wide.

But is this shot the answer for Federer? He tried two more angled backhands in the third set, one at 40-30, and another one deuce. Both shots missed. The errors gave Djokovic a break point which he converted when Federer errored out on an offensive forehand. That's the downside of the aggressive style of play Federer has changed to since his heyday. More errors.

In set three Federer had break points against Djokovic, but couldn't convert them, and in fact was broken himself on an errant cross court backhand. Djokovic served at 5-4, for the set and Federer generated two more break points. The first was fought off by an unreturnable first serve. The next point was a second serve. Both players probed each other's defenses, but Federer errored out on another wide backhand. Djokovic held serve and that's two sets to one. Nobody's going to beat Djokovic down two sets with two to go.

In the fourth set, Djokovic broke early, and faced a break point, but fought it off and held. Federer then lost a second break after some great returns by Djokovic took time away from Federer. Down two breaks and two sets, Federer was done.

 

[bjsnider]

Prototypical Djokovic-Federer Exchange in Detail

Now, I want to illustrate specifically the prototypical point Djokovic wants to play against Federer, and show why it's so difficult for Federer to counter. This was a very important point in this match. It was one of the many break points Djokovic fought off. The narrative since this match has been how Federer needs to find a way to convert break points against Djokovic to beat him.

Djokovic serves in the ad side

Federer returns with his forehand to the middle, and Djokovic then begins hitting backhands cross court.

Federer responds

Djokovic now moves into his forehand and keeps the ball on Federer's backhand.

Federer hits cross court

Djokovic hits a backhand to Federer's backhand, keeping Federer pinned to his ad side.

Federer responds with another backhand. Each backhand is a potential error for Federer, and both players know it. Federer is completely locked into a defensive position by Djokovic's tactics.

Djokovic hits another backhand cross court. Federer breaks the pattern by running around it. Federer hits a forehand, but leaves his deuce side open.

Djokovic takes the forehand and redirects it up the line to Federer's open deuce side.

Federer runs into a forehand. He almost always hits this shot cross court over the low part of the net.

Djokovic is there and hits a hard and deep forehand cross court.

Federer steps in and errors out a forehand.

Djokovic tested Federer on both wings, and Federer felt the need to stop the backhand exchange because it put him in an unfavourable position. That's not the view he might have held in 2007. If Federer can't defend his backhand side against the likes of Djokovic, no amount of trickery or tactics can save him, because Djokovic has no such weakness.

Character

Watching the two matches called to mind the excellent movie "The Hustler", from 1961. The plot is about the maturity of Eddie Felson (Paul Newman), in the movie, the best pool player in the world. Early in the movie, Eddie plays Minnesota Fats (Jackie Gleason)for 40 straight hours and gets horribly beat. Some time later, Eddie talks with a gambler who explains why Eddie lost.

Bert Gordon: I don't think there's a pool player alive shoots better pool than I saw you shoot the other night at Ames. You got talent.
Fast Eddie: So I got talent. So what beat me?
Bert Gordon: Character.

The rest of the flick is about Gordon training Felson to have more "character". By the end, Eddie is transformed into a truly unbeatable, unconquerable force. No more histrionics or drama. No more excuses for losing. The rematch with Fats is so one-sided the movie doesn't bother showing it.

2007: It's the water bottle's fault!

Over the years, Djokovic went from a self-pitying youngster eager to feel sorry for himself to Ultron. Djokovic gets mad at himself these days on occasion, but never feels sorry for himself. There are no excuses and losing is not an option. In the 2015 match, Djokovic looked physically ill to me. His nose was bright red, and the nose normally doesn't have much blood in it. I assume he had a cold. He didn't play as well as earlier in the season. Djokovic's serve wasn't untouchable. And still, Djokovic won convincingly. He won ugly. That's what Federer did in 2007. That's what champions sometimes have to do.

 

[metsman]

convincingly?

This was the most important point of the match.

Federer has a mid court forehand...one that he used to eat for breakfast. He has many options. Djokovic is a few feet behind the baseline...he can hit a short angle which lands inside the service box and would be very hard to defend. He can also let it loose up the line. All valid options and likely lead to him winning the point and serving for the third set. What does he do?

Hits one more or less right back to Djokovic. Djokovic hits back a ball between the service and baseline...good defensive shot but nothing special and still a shot federer used to be able to attack with his forehand. His reply?

Yes a ball that lands halfway in the freakin service box. Djokovic then hits a backhand crosscourt, Federer once again can't deal with this and hits a slow loopy backhand to the center of the court.

Djokovic puts the ball away and that is how the US Open final was lost. Not because Djokovic was too good...but because Federer's forehand and depth of shot were a shell of their former selves. Also he didn't serve too well. Sorry for the mouse in the pictures.

 

[FlamEnemY]

I really enjoy this type of analysis. Very well done, thanks for sharing this with us.

 

[La Grande]

Great post, nice work!

 

[Bobby Jr]

Djokovic puts the ball away and that is how the US Open final was lost. Not because Djokovic was too good...but because Federer's forehand and depth of shot were a shell of their former selves. Also he didn't serve too well. Sorry for the mouse in the pictures.

Federer's issue in this match was mostly that it took him 2 hours to get used to the damper, cooler conditions which were vastly different to the previous three matches he played which were all on warmer, drier days. In those matches he was hitting all those shots you suggest he doesn't hit anymore - he was so much more confident when pulling the trigger (the opponent helps of course). Go and watch the first set of this match in-full and you'll see how hard he was finding it to properly time his shots.

 

[sportsfan1]

I liked the analysis. In a nutshell, Djokovic now attacks the Fed BH repeatedly and as you said that is always a potential error or weak shot. He also moves Federer side to side much like Nadal to keep him unsure and guessing. Unfortunately it's become too easy too often for Djokovic.

 

[underground]

~snip~

Precisely, the whole point just shows how nervous Federer was. He couldn't hit a full swing hard-hit FH because he was afraid of hitting an error, which resulted in the weak responses into the middle of the court. Also another problem is that Fed's feet gets stuck when he's nervous.

 

[TheMaestro1990]

Interesting analysis. I think you are correct on almost everything, but one thing I want to point out: you said that Federer almost always goes cross court with his forehand over the low part of the net when he runs in the direction of his forehand. False. Many times he likes to suprise his opponent by wrong footing them, sending the ball up the line and thus either hitting a winner or gaining advantage of the point.

And as @metsman stated in post 4, Federer's timing on the forehand isn't what it used to be.

Except that, excellent post.

 

[bjsnider]

Interesting analysis. I think you are correct on almost everything, but one thing I want to point out: you said that Federer almost always goes cross court with his forehand over the low part of the net when he runs in the direction of his forehand. False. Many times he likes to suprise his opponent by wrong footing them, sending the ball up the line and thus either hitting a winner or gaining advantage of the point.

And as @metsman stated in post 4, Federer's timing on the forehand isn't what it used to be.

Except that, excellent post.

I can't remember ever seeing that. The shot is not a strength at all, and never has been. Sampras is the al-time greatest at that shot, and he went up the line all the time.

 

[TheMaestro1990]

I can't remember ever seeing that. The shot is not a strength at all, and never has been. Sampras is the al-time greatest at that shot, and he went up the line all the time.

Point at 8.36. Seen it countless of times. If you've never seen it, you can't have watched too many Federer matches.

Another one here, 3.10. Look how he used this shot to set up the following killer shot.

Point at 3.57 below. Another one.

Point at 2.45 below.

 

[NoleFam]

This is excellent analysis and hats off to the OP.

 

[bjsnider]

Point at 8.36. Seen it countless of times. If you've never seen it, you can't have watched too many Federer matches.

Another one here, 3.10. Look how he used this shot to set up the following killer shot.

Thanks for the examples. The first video has the shot at 8:53, and the in second video, it's at 3:24. This is not what I was referring to in the OP when I mentioned a running forehand. I mean sprinting across the court and hitting a rushed shot at essentially full speed. In these two examples, Federer takes a couple of steps and hits a forehand more on his terms. I concede that, in these situations, Federer has the time to hit whatever he wants. When Federer has to hit a running forehand as I define it, I've never seen him go up the line. BTW, you can see the shot and the point in context at 2:36:23 of the video, which is available at the USO Youtube page, so I'm not hiding behind anything. I think you can agree that what I'm calling a running forehand and your two examples are very different, right?

 

[TheMaestro1990]

Thanks for the examples. The first video has the shot at 8:53, and the in second video, it's at 3:24. This is not what I was referring to in the OP when I mentioned a running forehand. I mean sprinting across the court and hitting a rushed shot at essentially full speed. In these two examples, Federer takes a couple of steps and hits a forehand more on his terms. I concede that, in these situations, Federer has the time to hit whatever he wants. When Federer has to hit a running forehand as I define it, I've never seen him go up the line. BTW, you can see the shot and the point in context at 2:36:23 of the video, which is available at the USO Youtube page, so I'm not hiding behind anything. I think you can agree that what I'm calling a running forehand and your two examples are very different, right?

I was mentioning when the points started.

Except for the forehand against Nadal at WTF in 2011, I don't agree that he isn't running to the ball in the other examples (I added two others while you were writing). He isn't at maximum speed, no, but that wasn't the discussion. He's still running fast, more than fast enough to call it a running forehand.

And if you want to see a rushed Federer hitting a forehand down the line, take a look at the point; I think it was 4-1 up, 30-0 in Nadal's serve in the first set in the Australian Open 2012.

 

[NoleFam]

Point at 8.36. Seen it countless of times. If you've never seen it, you can't have watched too many Federer matches.

Another one here, 3.10. Look how he used this shot to set up the following killer shot.

Point at 3.57 below. Another one.

Point at 2.45 below.

This is what the OP is talking about...



That is a down the line running forehand. In those videos, Federer is taking a few steps and goes up the line with his forehand. It's not the same as sprinting to your forehand side and ripping it up the line. I don't think I've ever seen Federer do that. I have seen Nadal do it though and of course Sampras.

 

[TheMaestro1990]

This is what the OP is talking about...



That is a down the line running forehand. In those videos, Federer is taking a few steps and goes up the line with his forehand. It's not the same as sprinting to your forehand side and ripping it up the line. I don't think I've ever seen Federer do that. I have seen Nadal do it though and of course Sampras.

Ok, here's a few examples.

1.45 point starts.

6.30.

0.35.

 

[NoleFam]

Ok, here's a few examples.

1.45 point starts.

6.30.

0.35.

The second video is a down the line running forehand so I stand corrected. In the other two, he takes two or three steps but he's there and he's already near that side of the court so it's not the same. It's not a shot I have seen him hit often and he does usually take that shot crosscourt more times than not when he has to sprint to that side. This is another example of a down the line running forehand.

 

[TheMaestro1990]

The second video is a down the line running forehand so I stand corrected. In the other two, he takes two or three steps but he's there and he's already near that side of the court so it's not the same. It's not a shot I have seen him hit often and he does usually take that shot crosscourt more times than not when he has to sprint to that side. This is another example of a down the line running forehand.

Eh, the last one, against Nadal at Wimbledon. Look at the finishing shot, that if anything is a running forehand.

I didn't say it's a shot he executes close to half the times, but I have seen it many, many times so to say he has basically never done it, is pretty much a huge lie.

 

[TheMaestro1990]

There's another one against Andreev in the first round at the AO 2010. Or maybe Federer wasn't running fast enough? Lol. Always an "argument" to exclude him in this case. If it's not this, it's that.

 

[NoleFam]

Eh, the last one, against Nadal at Wimbledon. Look at the finishing shot, that if anything is a running forehand.

I didn't say it's a shot he executes close to half the times, but I have seen it many, many times so to say he has basically never done it, is pretty much a huge lie.

It's not really what the OP is talking about or a true running forehand because Federer starts in the middle of the court. In the point he was referencing in the 2015 US Open match, he was on the ad side of the court. To run from the ad side into deuce side and hit a down the line forehand you would have to sprint full speed. It doesn't really count if you only take 2 or 3 steps. Federer only took 3 steps in the Wimbledon match you're talking about.

 

[TheMaestro1990]

It's not really what the OP is talking about or a true running forehand because Federer starts in the middle of the court. In the point he was referencing in the 2015 US Open match, he was on the ad side of the court. To run from the ad side into deuce side and hit a down the line forehand you would have to sprint full speed. It doesn't really count if you only take 2 or 3 steps. Federer only took 3 steps in the Wimbledon match you're talking about.

He isn't precisely in the middle of the court. He's on the ad side. It's a running forehand, even a "true" one as you call it. If that isn't enough, take a look at the one against Andreev in AO 2010. There he is far out on the ad court.

But wait, maybe you have to be named Sampras to be able to play a true running forehand. Or maybe Nadal, but then it's not 100 % true running forehand, only 90.

 

[NoleFam]

He isn't precisely in the middle of the court. He's on the ad side. It's a running forehand, even a "true" one as you call it. If that isn't enough, take a look at the one against Andreev in AO 2010. There he is far out on the ad court.

But wait, maybe you have to be named Sampras to be able to play a true running forehand. Or maybe Nadal, but then it's not 100 % true running forehand, only 90.

When Nadal hits his shot, Federer was in the middle of the court. It's an impressive shot but not like the one he hit in Shanghai where he sprinted from the ad side to the deuce side and hit it. From the US Open match, Federer was on the ad side so the Wimbledon match is not a similar example and that's what I'm pointing out. I'm not trying to downplay Federer if that's what you're getting at.

 

[AustinTx24]

Excellent post good read.

 

[Hollywood401k]

I think a lot of the DTL vs Cross argument has to do with court positioning and Federer doesn't usually find himself 10 feet behind the baseline taking a running gamble DTL outside of the doubles alley. And he used to recover exceptionally from running forehands. He's hit his share of "banana" shots though just the same.

(warning:forehand fanboi video) some DTL starting at 5:25

 

[TheMaestro1990]

When Nadal hits his shot, Federer was in the middle of the court. It's an impressive shot but not like the one he hit in Shanghai where he sprinted from the ad side to the deuce side and hit it. From the US Open match, Federer was on the ad side so the Wimbledon match is not a similar example and that's what I'm pointing out. I'm not trying to downplay Federer if that's what you're getting at.

What is the difference being one meter inside the ad court or one meter closer to the middle? If you're going to argue like that, you can't leave out the importance of the angle from the incoming shot. Nadal's volley in Shanghai is pretty much straight forward, while the forehand from Nadal at Wimbledon takes Federer further out from the court. So he has to run at basically full speed to be able to reach the ball, just as in the Shanghai point.

It does sound to me like your trying to downplay Federer somewhat. You tell one argument, while ignoring another just as important, one that is "favoring" Federer in these points.

But either way you look at it, those are running forehands, and they are pretty much at full speed.

 

[bjsnider]

Eh, the last one, against Nadal at Wimbledon. Look at the finishing shot, that if anything is a running forehand.

I didn't say it's a shot he executes close to half the times, but I have seen it many, many times so to say he has basically never done it, is pretty much a huge lie.

My exact quote in the OP is "He almost always hits this shot cross court over the low part of the net." You found a couple of examples where he hit up the line, but I think my point is valid.

 

[NoleFam]

Does that make it a little clearer? He is on the ad side of the court in the US Open match and in the center of the court in the Wimbledon match. He takes 3 steps in the Wimbledon match before he makes contact with the ball and 6 steps in the US Open match before he makes contact with the ball. That's all I'm saying really and that's why they are not comparable because of his position on the court. Don't be so sensitive.

 

[Hollywood401k]

In the last 2 years I think Novak has also deliberately dragged Fed wide to the forehand with a loopy cross that exposes his movement and gets him to pull the trigger when he can't reliably today. And I don't think that same play worked as well in years prior.

 

[TheMaestro1990]

Does that make it a little clearer? He is on the ad side of the court in the US Open match and in the center of the court in the Wimbledon match. He takes 3 steps in the Wimbledon match before makes contact with the ball and 6 or 7 steps in the US Open match before he makes contact with the ball. That's all I'm saying really and that's why they are not comparable because of his position on the court. Don't be so sensitive.

If you're going to count steps, it's not 3, it's 5. Difference of one or two steps in these two points that we are comparing.

Have you even to bothered to look at my previous post? Nadal's forehand takes Federer further away from the court, while Djokovic's shot is straight down the line. You can't use "you have to start in the ad court" as an argument, while completely ignoring where the opponent has to hit the defending shot. In the point from US Open 2015, Federer is hitting the shot from the deuce court, behind the basline. In the Wimbledon point from 2006, Federer is stretched out to the doubles alley. That difference makes up for the ad court vs middle start position! It's so obvious... Either way you look at it, it is clearly a running forehand at full speed.

First you guys say you have never ever seen Federer hit a running forehand at full speed down the line, then I give you severale examples just in a few minutes that I remember in my mind. Then you change it to that he does it very seldom... Pretty amusing.

If I can find those examples in less than five minutes, you can bet there's a whole lot more to find from his career.

Just on the top of my head, there's another Sampras like pass he made down the line against Isner in the US Open 2007. And that is at full speed, too.

So, while I agree that Federer at the sheer majority of times uses the safe shot, the cross court forehand, he has displayed many times that he CAN suprise and hit running forehands down the line at pretty much full speed, either as a passing shot or as a clean winner with his opponent at the baseline.

 

[NoleFam]

If you're going to count steps, it's not 3, it's 5. Difference of one or two steps in these two points that we are comparing.

Have you even to bothered to look at my previous post? Nadal's forehand takes Federer further away from the court, while Djokovic's shot is straight down the line. You can't use "you have to start in the ad court" as an argument, while completely ignoring where the opponent has to hit the defending shot. In the point from US Open 2015, Federer is hitting the shot from the deuce court, behind the basline. In the Wimbledon point from 2006, Federer is stretched out to the doubles alley. That difference makes up for the ad court vs middle start position! It's so obvious... Either way you look at it, it is clearly a running forehand at full speed.

First you guys say you have never ever seen Federer hit a running forehand at full speed down the line, then I give you severale examples just in a few minutes that I remember in my mind. Then you change it to that he does it very seldom... Pretty amusing.

If I can find those examples in less than five minutes, you can bet there's a whole lot more to find from his career.

Just on the top of my head, there's another Sampras like pass he made down the line against Isner in the US Open 2007. And that is at full speed, too.

So, while I agree that Federer at the sheer majority of times uses the safe shot, the cross court forehand, he has displayed many times that he CAN suprise and hit running forehands down the line at pretty much full speed, either as a passing shot or as a clean winner with his opponent at the baseline.

I said that I didn't think I had ever seen him hit the shot. I didn't say he never hit it. You showed me that he had with the Shanghai video and I said I stood corrected. In the US Open match, he is in the doubles alley on the ad side before making the move to the deuce side so it's not the same in distance. Also, I count 3 steps he takes to make contact with the ball but you are making a big deal about something pretty trivial. The point is that when Federer has to sprint from the ad side to the deuce side, he usually chooses the crosscourt shot.

 

[TheMaestro1990]

I said that I didn't think I had ever seen him hit the shot. I didn't say he never hit it. You showed me that he had with the Shanghai video and I said I stood corrected. In the US Open match, he is in the doubles alley on the ad side before making the move to the deuce side so it's not the same in distance. Also, I count 3 steps he takes to make contact with the ball but you are making a big deal about something pretty trivial. The point is that when Federer has to sprint from the ad side to the deuce side, he usually chooses the crosscourt shot.

I agree with the point, that he usually chooses the crosscourt shot.

I don't think that it is me who make a big deal out of it. You began with counting steps. But I thought the whole point of a running forehand is that you have to hit it while running. Never heard that there's a criteria regarding how many steps one have to take to call it a running forehand. Though I agree to take one or two steps isn't enough, because you aren't really running. But if it's 4,5, 6 or 20 - what kind of difference does it make? Remember that these guys are top athletes, they are at running speed extremely quick.

Regarding the Wimbledon point, I'm not sure we are talking about the same shot... Because Federer is hitting a similiar shot earlier in the rally, where he indeed does take 3 step. But look at the shot which ends the point, he ends up at the end of the doubles alley, whereas in the US Open point Federer ends up behind the baseline. So he pretty much cover the same distance.

 

[NoleFam]

I agree with the point, that he usually chooses the crosscourt shot.

I don't think that it is me who make a big deal out of it. You began with counting steps. But I thought the whole point of a running forehand is that you have to hit it while running. Never heard that there's a criteria regarding how many steps one have to take to call it a running forehand. Though I agree to take one or two steps isn't enough, because you aren't really running. But if it's 4,5, 6 or 20 - what kind of difference does it make? Remember that these guys are top athletes, they are at running speed extremely quick.

Regarding the Wimbledon point, I'm not sure we are talking about the same shot... Because Federer is hitting a similiar shot earlier in the rally, where he indeed does take 3 step. But look at the shot which ends the point, he ends up at the end of the doubles alley, whereas in the US Open point Federer ends up behind the baseline. So he pretty much cover the same distance.

Oh! Haha. You are right. Sorry man. I didn't finish watching the point. I stopped at the first forehand. That's all you had to say instead of going around in circles and getting up in arms on me. Yes that is a down the line running forehand from the ad side and comparable to the one I was talking about.

 

[TheMaestro1990]

Oh! Haha. You are right. Sorry man. I didn't finish watching the point. I stopped at the first forehand. That's all you had to say instead of going around in circles and getting up in arms on me. Yes that is a down the line running forehand from the ad side and comparable to the one I was talking about.

I said it on of the earlier posts, about the finishing shot

Well, we agree on all then!

 

[NoleFam]

In the last 2 years I think Novak has also deliberately dragged Fed wide to the forehand with a loopy cross that exposes his movement and gets him to pull the trigger when he can't reliably today. And I don't think that same play worked as well in years prior.

Yea he does and Federer handled that shot better years ago than he does now. Djokovic is able to exploit that more than anybody else in the game right now.

 

[metsman]

In the last 2 years I think Novak has also deliberately dragged Fed wide to the forehand with a loopy cross that exposes his movement and gets him to pull the trigger when he can't reliably today. And I don't think that same play worked as well in years prior.

spot on

 

[I am the Greatest!]

Does that make it a little clearer? He is on the ad side of the court in the US Open match and in the center of the court in the Wimbledon match. He takes 3 steps in the Wimbledon match before he makes contact with the ball and 6 steps in the US Open match before he makes contact with the ball. That's all I'm saying really and that's why they are not comparable because of his position on the court. Don't be so sensitive.

The first video/gif is a running forehand, regardless if he was or started at the center of the court or not. You might want to expound your running forehand to running-from-the-other-end-of-the-court-to-the-other-end-without-braking-forehand.