Forehand Analysis

[gmwu2]

Been trying to work on my forehand lately and decided to record myself. Doesn't look exactly right, but I can't pinpoint what it is that seems off. My initial thoughts are,

1. Racquet drops into the "pat the dog" position too long, and is not fluid
2. Seems like I'm arming it and not loose enough with the swing?

Any thoughts/tips on how to improve my forehand are welcome. Also if anyone lives in Chicago and wants to hit, I'm always looking for good partners.

 

[Bender]

Been trying to work on my forehand lately and decided to record myself. Doesn't look exactly right, but I can't pinpoint what it is that seems off. My initial thoughts are,

1. Racquet drops into the "pat the dog" position too long, and is not fluid
2. Seems like I'm arming it and not loose enough with the swing?

Any thoughts/tips on how to improve my forehand are welcome. Also if anyone lives in Chicago and wants to hit, I'm always looking for good partners.

You're arming the racquet because you're consciously trying to get to the PTD position. Were you modelling your forehand after Federer's forehand from c 2016 onwards? IMHO the PTD position is a borderline arbitrary point in the forehand swing that people put way too much weight on, a bit like wrist extension.

If you're stopping your racquet at the PTD position just to tick off a checkbox because some YouTube coaches made a video about it, that's probably why your stroke looks armed.

If you pause your swing at the end of your takeback, you disengage what little coil you actually manage to incorporate into your takeback, and then from there you're basically inclined to use your forearm to jab the ball in a vaguely windshield wipery motion because you've taken your legs and hips out of the equation--especially if you've not set yourself up properly relative to the ball and try to hit off balance (0:15).

 

[BallChaser]

You have a good self analysis. You are killing the momentum generated by dropping your racket, when you pause at pat-the-dog. Try to hold your racket when it is vertical, not at pat-the-dog position.

 

[gmwu2]

You're arming the racquet because you're consciously trying to get to the PTD position. Were you modelling your forehand after Federer's forehand from c 2016 onwards? IMHO the PTD position is a borderline arbitrary point in the forehand swing that people put way too much weight on, a bit like wrist extension.

If you're stopping your racquet at the PTD position just to tick off a checkbox because some YouTube coaches made a video about it, that's probably why your stroke looks armed.

If you pause your swing at the end of your takeback, you disengage what little coil you actually manage to incorporate into your takeback, and then from there you're basically inclined to use your forearm to jab the ball in a vaguely windshield wipery motion because you've taken your legs and hips out of the equation--especially if you've not set yourself up properly relative to the ball and try to hit off balance (0:15).

When I started a couple of years ago I think I did try to model it after him, but now realize it's caused some harm. I'll try and keep the racket up until starting my swing.

Are you also saying that I should try to coil more on the takeback?

 

[ZanderGoga]

Don't worry about #1. People will get all up in a tizzy about it, but you can hit a perfectly viable ATP caliber forehand by setting the racquet right there and waiting for the incoming ball all day. And many players do just that. It doesn't look as pretty or fluid, but tennis isn't a beauty contest, it's about getting the right pieces in the right place in the right order. This is mechanically fine for the same reason the Todd Martin serve is. Put the arm where it can perform its upcoming actions properly, and everything works.

You look and/or feel stiff because your chain is breaking down at your core. The modern, full kinetic chain is meant to go: drive off the foot to extend the racquet side hip so it more or less faces the target...THEN bring the body and the line of the shoulders square to the target...THEN allow a loose and free-moving racquet arm to flow naturally out and across its natural swing path to finish the stroke.

So it's hips > shoulders > arm, separately, and in that order.

Your stroke is (hips + shoulders) > arm. Usually, anyway. You hit one later in the mix that's a little better.

Your arm motion looks ok. It's loose enough that it's following a good path and extending out into the court before wraparound like a proper stroke should. But the movement of your lower body is doing nothing to add to the power of the movement of your upper body. Your hips and core are in lockstep.

You need to think about using that leg drive to develop hip-shoulder separation, THEN letting the naturally resulting tightness that motion develops in the core bring the shoulders and arm around.

That's the long of it. The short of it lies in finding the trick that helps you get there. Try holding your off arm across the body a beat longer, then retracting it a little more forcefully. You want to feel that hip open while the rest of your body is still closed toward the sideline more. And only then, uncoil the upper body into the stroke.

 

[gmwu2]

Don't worry about #1. People will get all up in a tizzy about it, but you can hit a perfectly viable ATP caliber forehand by setting the racquet right there and waiting for the incoming ball all day. And many players do just that. It doesn't look as pretty or fluid, but tennis isn't a beauty contest, it's about getting the right pieces in the right place in the right order. This is mechanically fine for the same reason the Todd Martin serve is. Put the arm where it can perform its upcoming actions properly, and everything works.

You look and/or feel stiff because your chain is breaking down at your core. The modern, full kinetic chain is meant to go: drive off the foot to extend the racquet side hip so it more or less faces the target...THEN bring the body and the line of the shoulders square to the target...THEN allow a loose and free-moving racquet arm to flow naturally out and across its natural swing path to finish the stroke.

So it's hips > shoulders > arm, separately, and in that order.

Your stroke is (hips + shoulders) > arm. Usually, anyway. You hit one later in the mix that's a little better.

Your arm motion looks ok. It's loose enough that it's following a good path and extending out into the court before wraparound like a proper stroke should. But the movement of your lower body is doing nothing to add to the power of the movement of your upper body. Your hips and core are in lockstep.

You need to think about using that leg drive to develop hip-shoulder separation, THEN letting the naturally resulting tightness that motion develops in the core bring the shoulders and arm around.

That's the long of it. The short of it lies in finding the trick that helps you get there. Try holding your off arm across the body a beat longer, then retracting it a little more forcefully. You want to feel that hip open while the rest of your body is still closed toward the sideline more. And only then, uncoil the upper body into the stroke.

Thanks for the response. I was wondering about the point you made for #1, since someone like Andy Murray seems to have the racket facing the floor on his forehand, yet still manages a fluid and powerful shot.

I've heard about the shoulder hip separation, but never really understood it. If I'm understanding correctly, the legs/hip should drive through first, pulling the shoulder and then the arm subsequently? The issue with my forehand was that the shoulder and hip rotated at the same time, thus negating the use of the leg/hip drive. Let me know if I got that correct. I'll try and implement this in my practice and maybe upload another video to see if there are any improvements

 

[ZanderGoga]

Thanks for the response. I was wondering about the point you made for #1, since someone like Andy Murray seems to have the racket facing the floor on his forehand, yet still manages a fluid and powerful shot.

I've heard about the shoulder hip separation, but never really understood it. If I'm understanding correctly, the legs/hip should drive through first, pulling the shoulder and then the arm subsequently? The issue with my forehand was that the shoulder and hip rotated at the same time, thus negating the use of the leg/hip drive. Let me know if I got that correct. I'll try and implement this in my practice and maybe upload another video to see if there are any improvements

Yes.

And understand, it's not like the hips come fully square while the body is still motionless 90 degrees the other direction. It's not robotic. It's bang-bang-bang sequential, but connected. On here, it's hips > shoulder > arm. On the court, it's hipsshoulderarm. You have to get where you can feel the separation, but also the connection.

 

[Bender]

When I started a couple of years ago I think I did try to model it after him, but now realize it's caused some harm. I'll try and keep the racket up until starting my swing.

Are you also saying that I should try to coil more on the takeback?

You don't have to keep the racquet up actually--what I mean is you should try and aim to make the takeback and the swing one fluid motion (although obviously not all at the same exact speed).

Yeah, definitely more coil could help in your case. IIRC on a lot of your shots it looked like your shoulders stayed more or less parallel with your hips. When I hit open stance forehands my shoulders are almost perpendicular to my hips, although I'm probably on the more extreme end so you probably don't want to coil nearly as much.

 

[eah123]

Not bad. I think you just have too much tension in your wrist, so the racquet doesn’t always flip when you initiate the forward motion, and your follow through looks like a “fake windshield wiper.” If you relax the wrist, you will greatly increase racquet head speed and get a natural release after contact.

 

[Deleted member 776614]

@gmwu2 there are articles and videos specifically talking about how bringing the racquet back early will make you late. I think that’s what’s happening.

 

[Deleted member 776614]

Usually unit turn happens before the left hand comes off the racquet. You’re kind of doing both at the same time, and not really doing a full unit turn - your left arm is pointing forward of the baseline.

Pay attention to where the ball is relative to the bounce when you take your left hand off the racquet - it’s quite a bit before the bounce.

I would focus on making a distinct unit turn with both hands on the racquet, keep left hand on the racquet until ‘just before’ the bounce, and make an effort to point the left arm slightly behind the baseline (over correcting.) Ultimately you have to play around with the timing but once you start experimenting I think it will make sense. They talk about it in the video I just linked above.

 

[Dragy]

Thanks for the response. I was wondering about the point you made for #1, since someone like Andy Murray seems to have the racket facing the floor on his forehand, yet still manages a fluid and powerful shot.

It’s likely not about where racquet is facing, but where “takeback” transitions to “dropping start of swing”, and where some slowdown/hesitation is ok to happen:

Further on from here it’s highly recommended to minimize shoulder tension by letting arm drop with gravity. Otherwise shoulder tightness will inhibit good flowing transition into proper configuration for forward acceleration, aka flip, aka swivel:

 

[5263]

You have a good self analysis. You are killing the momentum generated by dropping your racket, when you pause at pat-the-dog. Try to hold your racket when it is vertical, not at pat-the-dog position.

really more of an illusion in most cases with him. He has a very nice swivel at the back which in full motion appears to stop, but is really continuous when you look frame by frame.

 

[5263]

Been trying to work on my forehand lately and decided to record myself. Doesn't look exactly right, but I can't pinpoint what it is that seems off. My initial thoughts are,

1. Racquet drops into the "pat the dog" position too long, and is not fluid
2. Seems like I'm arming it and not loose enough with the swing?

Any thoughts/tips on how to improve my forehand are welcome. Also if anyone lives in Chicago and wants to hit, I'm always looking for good partners.

I think you are wrong on #1
and on #2, it only looks that way because you are seeking too much extension/ hitting too far in front. You are not late or pausing wrong. Your open stance FHs at 29s and those 2 Fhs look pretty darned good Imo.

 

[Chas Tennis]

As ZanderGoga mentioned you do not have the idea of separation. Separation allows the powerful abdominal/trunk muscles to be better used for racket head speed. Your uppermost body (indicated by a line between your two shoulders) should move more independently compared to a line between your two hips because the stroke then involves the twisting muscles of your abdomen. The shoulders line and hips line when viewed from above would form the separation angle. Your separation angle is too small.

Search Forum: forehand separation Chas
for more illustrations, videos and discussion.

If you have had back injuries or issues you should consider that risk when you use more trunk twisting.

Djokovic is an excellent example of using separation. However, he is very flexible and his range of motion may be too much for many players.

To compare forehands in this post one above the other and single frame - single frame Youtube using the period & comma keys. Always select the video by using the alt key + left mouse click, otherwise the video starts playing. Pick two impacts and go to those frames, single frame backward and forward comparing the most similar racket positions. You can go full screen and come back down and the video stays on the same frame. Find more videos with more similar camera angles, forehand compilations or model forehands for comparison to your forehand. Make another video with a bigger image of your stroke. List all differences that you see.

This forehand is not a full out forehand and the separation is not as much as for a heavy paced put away shot. Avoid comparing videos of easy practice or warm up forehands.

Look especially at separation.

 

[Harry_Wild]

Just copy either of these player's forehands and you be in the 7.0 level!