Heavy slice would have worked against peakdal

[BringBackWood]

I have read a lot on how slice doesn't work against Nadal, particularly since Fed has started driving his backhand more aggressively. Actually for a lot of commentators during the years of Fed's struggles, myself included, the main complaint was that he did not slice enough, and that when he did it was often not heavy enough or lacked purpose. If I had been Fed's coach I would have told him to bring Nadal to net more with drop shots and short slices. Ok so Nadal wouldn't have played into Roger's hands so much as kamikaze Roddick but still it would have given him many problems. Of course variety is what is needed, so I am not saying by any means exclusively slice, but the heavy slice should have been utilised more, particularly to Nadal's backhand corner. I particularly like one rally in the 2006 Wimb final where he does that, and he gets a short ball which he hits a forehand winner from. When he played an angled slice crosscourt (which is his favourite) I think this was possibly the least effective because Nadal is good at the running forehand and he can whip to Roger's backhand and he can't do much with it. Deep/ central is better than crosscourt in general.

My favourite slice though is the one in the 2007 Wim final which sets up the forehand to get the break in the fifth. You'll know which I one I mean. That was pure class and made the bounce of the court look like it had gone back to the 1980's

With Roger's topspin backhand resurgence, this topic may seem redundant, but I just wanted to challenge the idea that Nadal was immune to slice. The floaty slice sure. But the knifed slice, no. That was a successful shot which Roger did not exploit.

 

[6august]

I dont think so.

Drop shot: during Nadal's prime it took him something like 2 steps to catch any drop shot. It's a suicide.

CC slice: didn't work, obviously

DTL slice: since Fed always had to reach the ball at high position, he hardly could make a deep and accurate slice.

 

[Luckydog]

The most effective way to trouble Nadal is kicking down his bottles, not slice.Believe me,I'm serious.

 

[NatF]

Prime Nadal ate up slice like nobody before or since, not a good strategy.

 

[BringBackWood]

He ate up weak slice used from a defensive position, which is what most of the tour use slice as. Offensive slice when you really knife it is what I am talking about.

 

[DreddyTennis45]

Nope. The only way to stop peakdal is by constant aggression, junkballing and forcing him to the net.
A bit like Djokovic, you have to sufficate him so he doesn't have time to grind you down (e.g constantly attacking his second serves/short balls etc).
Being unpredictable helps too, if he can't read your game then he's not inside your head.
By forcing him to net (e.g. with short slices) you take him away his comfort zone. Nadal has a good net game, don't get me wrong, but he's not comfortable going to the net a lot and making awkward volleys, so if you do that you may have a chance

 

[Sysyphus]

Yes, Federer never tried to hit a proper slice against Nadal in their heydays. Only one or two loopers on the service line. If only he had known.

 

[mikeeeee]

I'm sure the other top coaches must have missed this tactic!

 

[BringBackWood]

Yes, Federer never tried to hit a proper slice against Nadal in their heydays. Only one or two loopers on the service line. If only he had known.

I'm sure the other top coaches must have missed this tactic!

Yes you are correct tennis players & coaches are infallible, which is why Fed & his coach always let Nadal spin his serve into his backhand corner and chipped it back the whole match. Have you never watched a match and thought player x should do this or should stop doing that?

 

[Sysyphus]

Have you never watched a match and thought player x should do this or should stop doing that?

hehe, I have. To give you an example, I watched quite a few Fedal matches back in the day, and you know what I often thought? That Fed should stop slicing so much.

 

[BeatlesFan]

Fed's problems with Nadal were always mental. He always had the shots to beat him, but he didn't have the mindset. Fed has the GOAT slice, but Nadal ate that up and spit it back with interest. It wouldn't matter what Fed did during both their peaks, he was mentally weak against Rafa, as we all know.

 

[Sysyphus]

Fed's problems with Nadal were always mental. He always had the shots to beat him, but he didn't have the mindset. Fed has the GOAT slice, but Nadal ate that up and spit it back with interest. It wouldn't matter what Fed did during both their peaks, he was mentally weak against Rafa, as we all know.

Absolutely. Nothing to do with the actual tennis at all. Fed just deeply phobic about young mediterranean men in capris.

 

[SinjinCooper]

It didn't matter. Fed's use of slice has always been brilliant, as has his use of the BH drive, and both shots have always been among the elite of the elite on the pro level.

You just weren't going to dent the Nadal FH with your right-handed backhand on slow courts in Nadal's physical prime. Nobody did. Everyone's suddenly got ideas on how guys "should have done it," now that we're watching a lesser version week in/week out.

 

[BringBackWood]

hehe, I have. To give you an example, I watched quite a few Fedal matches back in the day, and you know what I often thought? That Fed should stop slicing so much.

Fed didn't use the slice that much in most of their matches. Look at Wimbledon 2008 - kept trying to go over the ball and missing or leaving it short.

It didn't matter. Fed's use of slice has always been brilliant, as has his use of the BH drive, and both shots have always been among the elite of the elite on the pro level.

You just weren't going to dent the Nadal FH with your right-handed backhand on slow courts in Nadal's physical prime. Nobody did. Everyone's suddenly got ideas on how guys "should have done it," now that we're watching a lesser version week in/week out.

I'm acutely aware that Nadal is a shadow of his former self. I'm dubious of the notion that what Fed has done in the last 2 matches with his backhand would have been possible with peakdal (although I think his mentality is a major improvement).

 

[Drlexus]

I have read a lot on how slice doesn't work against Nadal, particularly since Fed has started driving his backhand more aggressively. Actually for a lot of commentators during the years of Fed's struggles, myself included, the main complaint was that he did not slice enough, and that when he did it was often not heavy enough or lacked purpose. If I had been Fed's coach I would have told him to bring Nadal to net more with drop shots and short slices. Ok so Nadal wouldn't have played into Roger's hands so much as kamikaze Roddick but still it would have given him many problems. Of course variety is what is needed, so I am not saying by any means exclusively slice, but the heavy slice should have been utilised more, particularly to Nadal's backhand corner. I particularly like one rally in the 2006 Wimb final where he does that, and he gets a short ball which he hits a forehand winner from. When he played an angled slice crosscourt (which is his favourite) I think this was possibly the least effective because Nadal is good at the running forehand and he can whip to Roger's backhand and he can't do much with it. Deep/ central is better than crosscourt in general.

My favourite slice though is the one in the 2007 Wim final which sets up the forehand to get the break in the fifth. You'll know which I one I mean. That was pure class and made the bounce of the court look like it had gone back to the 1980's

With Roger's topspin backhand resurgence, this topic may seem redundant, but I just wanted to challenge the idea that Nadal was immune to slice. The floaty slice sure. But the knifed slice, no. That was a successful shot which Roger did not exploit.

An edberg type slice and rush to net would be a killer for nadal as edberg proved time and time again against muster who was a poor mans version of nadal back in that era.

Heavy slice to nadals forehand side woukd have been edfective as well if follwed by an approach to the net.

Of course we are talking off clay. On clay it has to be acknowlwedged peak nadal was unbeatable. Those days were pre 2011. Nadal on clay since then has been nowehere near the level of those early days.

 

[metsman]

Federer's offensive short slice at his peak against Nadal worked decently on quicker surfaces (Wimby, TMC), but Nadal ate up the defensive slice in a way no one else was able to do.

 

[chut]

Well... Actually, no.

 

[droliver]

That strategy was only effective on faster courts, and had the disadvantage of delivering a low pace shot right into Nadal's wheelhouse. Anything other then a great , deep slice was likely to put you in a defensive position unless it was an inside out from the center Court to the deuce court

 

[orreallyy?]

Anything will work against Nadal. He is Finnish.

 

[MasturB]

Fed used to chip returns and slice because Nadal defended the ball so well it gave fed time to get back to neutral. When fed would hit over the return Nadal would punish even the good returns and angles.

These days Nadal doesn't defend as well as he used to and just wants to end points quickly. Thus he's not as effective while Fed looks like a genius.

 

[Chadillac]

A deep slice down the middle takes away nadals ability to create angles off the first shot (he rarely lets go of control). I think fed was doing this on his defensive returns recently.

 

[KINGROGER]

An edberg type slice and rush to net would be a killer for nadal as edberg proved time and time again against muster who was a poor mans version of nadal back in that era.

Heavy slice to nadals forehand side woukd have been edfective as well if follwed by an approach to the net.

Of course we are talking off clay. On clay it has to be acknowlwedged peak nadal was unbeatable. Those days were pre 2011. Nadal on clay since then has been nowehere near the level of those early days.

Not quite unbeatable. 3 losses. 2 to Federer. 1 to Federer.

Similar to peak Fed on grass (1 loss to Nadal).

 

[Charlemagne]

It wouldn't work. Nadal would eat that shot up. We saw plenty of evidence during his prime in his many battles against Federer.

 

[Drlexus]

Not quite unbeatable. 3 losses. 2 to Federer. 1 to Federer.

Similar to peak Fed on grass (1 loss to Nadal).

Did i not say french open? If not i shoukd have been more specific. Over 5 sets on ay nadal was unbeatable but over 3 federer and perhaps djokovic only guys who could beat him.

 

[KINGROGER]

Did i not say french open? If not i shoukd have been more specific. Over 5 sets on ay nadal was unbeatable but over 3 federer and perhaps djokovic only guys who could beat him.

Soderling did in 09 but apart from that invincible.

 

[Drlexus]

Soderling did in 09 but apart from that invincible.

Soderling showed the way that many others put into practice at wimbledon most notably.

He was first guy who battered the nadal forehand. Always been a huge weakness that too many players didnt have the courage to test. Federer last set in ao and in indian wells showed up that weakness in spades. Djokovic did in 2011.

 

[KINGROGER]

Soderling showed the way that many others put into practice at wimbledon most notably.

He was first guy who battered the nadal forehand. Always been a huge weakness that too many players didnt have the courage to test. Federer last set in ao and in indian wells showed up that weakness in spades. Djokovic did in 2011.

I agree. Always attack Rafa's FH and take time away from it. Sure he'll hit a few spectacular passing shots but accept that and keep at it and you'd get more luck from limiting his time in that side than his BH.

Fed's mistaking was going BH to BH and FH to BH. Should've just went I/O FH every time.

 

[every7]

Do you have any footage of commentators complaining that he did not slice enough? Please post it.

I watched a LOT of tennis live and on cable between 2005-2009 and I don't recall commentators suggesting this.

The knifed slice is great but there is very little margin for error in it. You are hitting a strong ball THROUGH the court, with very little net clearance AND very little baseline margin, with no protective topspin. Very tough ask for anyone (even Federer) to use this shot as a reliable, effective attack mechanism over long points and 5 set conditions.

And if it is being hit from Federer's backhand to Nadal's backhand it would be required to be run as either an off-backhand slice, or a down the line slice, which makes the execution even harder............

The already daunting task of facing peak Nadal would seem even more overwhelming with this unusual plan of attack imo.

 

[bjsnider]

You hit a slice against Nadal on clay, it bounces up and gives him time to run around and crack a forehand. It's handing him control of the point on a silver platter. You do that against Nadal, you lose.

 

[BringBackWood]

Do you have any footage of commentators complaining that he did not slice enough? Please post it.

You hit a slice against Nadal on clay, it bounces up and gives him time to run around and crack a forehand. It's handing him control of the point on a silver platter. You do that against Nadal, you lose.

Fed Nadal RG 2007:

The point at 10:16 John LLoyd notes the slice has worked and Fed didn't use it enough. You can see that slice can be effective on clay, maybe because the bounce is less predictable than on hard court. Also the point at 9:20 Fed first uses a heavy slice to dig the ball out from a defensive position, getting a weaker reply from Nadal. He then play a similar slice to the other point posted, and if he'd been a tad quicker getting to the net he would have had an easier volley.

 

[mental midget]

i can't begin to tally all the knifed slices i watched nadal rip up the line or crosscourt for a winner. in fact, a larger point i haven't seen made very often is that nadal's forehand is actually much more dangerous on lower balls, around knee to ankle height. these are the balls he really drives, particularly camped out from the ad corner. when people feed him heavy spin and get it up around his shoulders, he buggy whips it and can leave it short. of course when playing well he doesn't do anything poorly, but i've seen high heavy spin keep him at bay more than slices...which he historically destroyed for winners.

 

[Deleted member 742196]

OP

It's a well known fact that Fed [and Nadal] have some of the heaviest slices on tour. Fed has routinely carved up the tour with his slice for years. This article might be of interest to you, and others, in this thread:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/avancedtennis/john_yandell/modern_pro_slice_1/

I reckon placement [DTL and CC], surface and yeah, being able to follow it up with a net approach for Nadal's invariable response are keys. Easier said then done however.

 

[Deleted member 742196]

Fed Nadal RG 2007:

Damn. Thanks for the video. I forgot just how bruising the rallies were back in the day between these two. Yeah, looking at this, as much as a FED fan as I am, I can't see either Nadal or Federer going on for hours like this today. It's good Fed has transitioned to more of an offensive style in his later years. I don't quite know what Nadal will do but its clear his best grinding days are behind him.

 

[SinjinCooper]

OP

It's a well known fact that Fed [and Nadal] have some of the heaviest slices on tour. Fed has routinely carved up the tour with his slice for years. This article might be of interest to you, and others, in this thread:

https://www.tennisplayer.net/public/avancedtennis/john_yandell/modern_pro_slice_1/

I reckon placement [DTL and CC], surface and yeah, being able to follow it up with a net approach for Nadal's invariable response are keys. Easier said then done however.

The case is a bit overstated, there.

Remember that when slicing back a topspin shot, the slice spin is additive -- which is to say, going in the same direction as the incoming spin, so it's not all being generated by the hitter. When you hit in a topspin rally, you're working to counteract your opponent's spin. When you hit a topspin shot off of someone else's slice, you're hitting a ball arriving with almost no spin -- because a slice hitting the court going forward robs the ball of almost all its spin. But when you're hitting a slice off of an incoming topspin, you're hitting a ball that's already spinning heavily with even more spin in the same direction.

The court robs the incoming topspin ball of some topspin, but still, the heavier the spin on the incoming ball, the heavier the spin when it arrives at the hitter's racquet. So the a slice stroke on a heavier incoming ball will create a lot more slice than an identical stroke on a flat ball.

All of which is to say that slice spin rates depend a lot on the heaviness of the strokes you're facing. The slice isn't a stroke capable of generating monster spin rates on its own -- it lacks the full kinetic chain to be able to do so. And slices against Nadal are virtually ALWAYS going to be insanely heavy. Fed's slices from that era were routinely the heaviest in tennis because that was the era he faced Nadal pretty much every tournament.

 

[Deleted member 742196]

The case is a bit overstated, there.

Remember that when slicing back a topspin shot, the slice spin is additive -- which is to say, going in the same direction as the incoming spin, so it's not all being generated by the hitter. When you hit in a topspin rally, you're working to counteract your opponent's spin. When you hit a topspin shot off of someone else's slice, you're hitting a ball arriving with almost no spin -- because a slice hitting the court going forward robs the ball of almost all its spin. But when you're hitting a slice off of an incoming topspin, you're hitting a ball that's already spinning heavily with even more spin in the same direction.

The court robs the incoming topspin ball of some topspin, but still, the heavier the spin on the incoming ball, the heavier the spin when it arrives at the hitter's racquet. So the a slice stroke on a heavier incoming ball will create a lot more slice than an identical stroke on a flat ball.

All of which is to say that slice spin rates depend a lot on the heaviness of the strokes you're facing. The slice isn't a stroke capable of generating monster spin rates on its own -- it lacks the full kinetic chain to be able to do so. And slices against Nadal are virtually ALWAYS going to be insanely heavy. Fed's slices from that era were routinely the heaviest in tennis because that was the era he faced Nadal pretty much every tournament.

I agree, imparting underspin to a topspin bounce is additive which is why we see higher rpms on tour. That knife/downward motion you see from Fed wouldn't work at rec levels, it needs heavy topspin.

But all things being equal everyone plays Nadal, Fed isn't exclusively playing him. Also, they've only had the 35'ish odd matches - a relatively small subset of Federer's matches on tour.

The OP was opining Fed might have have done better if he sliced/underspin even more, this is specifically in response to it. It might have worked, but patterns would be key - slice/underspin to the Nadal FH may have been something to throw in more. Difficult on the back foot, ultra low percentage stroke. No way around the fact on clay rallies are just more punishing, ball bounces right up - in this sort of physical match up Nadal's margin for error style is just suited for it better.

I think the best thing Fed could have done is what he's been working towards the last few years: 1) A more forgiving stick 2) blending in a net game 3) Ensuring return begins with a neutral/offensive stroke.

There are no easy/magic answers - the guys at the top are pros.

 

[Drlexus]

I agree. Always attack Rafa's FH and take time away from it. Sure he'll hit a few spectacular passing shots but accept that and keep at it and you'd get more luck from limiting his time in that side than his BH.

Fed's mistaking was going BH to BH and FH to BH. Should've just went I/O FH every time.

As should andy roddick back in the day. He had the game to dismantle rafa but he got the tactics totally wrong. Sampras in his book said he brome down courier and agassi by going to their strengths...the forehand. His point was that if your game is good enough you should back it against anybodys strength.

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Nope. The only way to stop peakdal is by constant aggression, junkballing and forcing him to the net.
A bit like Djokovic, you have to sufficate him so he doesn't have time to grind you down (e.g constantly attacking his second serves/short balls etc).
Being unpredictable helps too, if he can't read your game then he's not inside your head.
By forcing him to net (e.g. with short slices) you take him away his comfort zone. Nadal has a good net game, don't get me wrong, but he's not comfortable going to the net a lot and making awkward volleys, so if you do that you may have a chance

Except junkballing doesn't bother him anywhere near as much as it does Djokovic. Nadal is very secure when it comes to putting away short balls/drop shots so he will seize on them like a panther and kill the point. Djokovic gets into trouble by being too passive in such situations and not stepping in and finishing it off. A player can beat Nadal if he has got a really strong backhand WITHOUT a weak forehand and can consistently step in and hit strong cross courts and combine it with a solid DTL as well to get Nadal on the run. Davydenko bothered Nadal because he too could implement this strategy. Needless to say, not many players, even the ones with a double hander, have been able to hit the backhand well enough to pull it off or combine it with great movement. It has taken so long for Fed to finally achieve this effect with the one hander and even then I am not sure it works against peakdal. Much harder to step in on the backhands if the Nadal forehand is deep and forces Fed to hit virtually off the half volley.